So, maybe Extra Attack isn't a great example, but Arcane Archers are. They're magic. They have a new simple magic system. The Psi Dice proves that they're not against making new systems only for psionics.
Why can't they do that with a class, and not have it be a caster?
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
So, maybe Extra Attack isn't a great example, but Arcane Archers are. They're magic. They have a new simple magic system. The Psi Dice proves that they're not against making new systems only for psionics.
Why can't they do that with a class, and not have it be a caster?
creating just eight effects that are thematically apropriate to an arrow mage is a lot easier than creating an psionics system advanced enough to last an entire class. How much overlap could an psion have with spellcasters? would you be fine with a handful of disiplinces fules by spell slots and are similar to spells, but who dont require any components and are not considered magical?
If they make a Dark Sun book without including a non-caster psion class, I won't allow it in my games. If they do psionics wrong, I'm not allowing it. Until they publish an Unearthed Arcana with the 3 requirements I have for the psionic system in 5e, I'm not voting for it.
And if they would simply stop trying to make Psionics as something similar but different from Spellcasting and just make something entirely different from spellcasting it would have led to different results. That was the issue with the Mystic.
The issue with the Mystic is that the devs didn't have a clear picture of what a Mystic should do. The actual mechanics was the least of their problems. Is it a damage dealing class? A support class? What distinguishes them from other classes in that niche? "Psionics class" is not an identity.
well the thing is the mystic class had to represent every kind of psion with the mystic class, you cannot have one psionic class for utillity, and blasting and one for tanking and support for instance, an mystic will only ever have a fraction of the total available disiplinces, just like an wizard, bard or cleric it can be built to fit a certain niche, they are worse at out right damage and blasting compared to sorcerers and wizards, and their disiplinces generally falls into the categories of buffs, utillity, debuffs and anything to do with weapon usage / melee mystics. think of them like clerics, they have a little bulk and a little armor and a few weapons, and depending on subclass they can deal quite a bit of damage, yet where they are at their best is with helping their allies, un-helping their foes and providing some useful spells.
To distinguish them further from clerics and wizards, they are a lot more "here and now" than what their spellcasting peers are, they dont get better spells with longer casting times, they dont get the luxury of ritual casting and their disiplinces almost always have short durations described in minutes, with maybe a handful of effects lasting an hour, with only a single example of an effect lasting for a total of 8 hours. Furthermore a much greater portion of their disiplince effects require concentration to maintain compared to other classes, and once they reach 9th level they will no longer gain any more powerful effects than what they weilded previously, just more control of the powers they do weild, suddenly capable of concetrating on the equivolent of an 5th and 1st level spell at once instead of an single 6th level spell slot, or the equivalent of an 4th and a 2nd level slot at once, or the equivialent of three 2nd level spells, but cannot do anything greater than a 5th level spell. No raw increase in power, just more utillity.
You might see them as more extreme sorcerers, they do not know much, but they are flexible with the disiplinces that they know with their spell point like system of casting and their psionic mastery feature
They seem to have had at least some idea of what the class should and should not do, it has its own little identity still
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don’t think Psionicist should have spell slots or “casting” at all.
A spell is just a discrete supernatural effect. It can have its source in arcane magic, divine magic, or psionic power. I don't see why they have to rewrite a telekinesis effect when they can just reference the Telekinesis spell. Sure they can tweak it, maybe it doesn't use verbal components or something, but the spell effect is source agnostic. Having to make a new subsystem just because seems inelegant.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But it’s not “just because.” The point is to have an alternative to Spellcasting. It cannot be an alternative if it’s still just Spellcasting.
It would be like saying that as an alternative to walking you still walk, but just clack coconut shells together and pretend you’re riding a horse.... That was only funny because of the sheer absurdity of it.
But it’s not “just because.” The point is to have an alternative to Spellcasting. It cannot be an alternative if it’s still just Spellcasting.
It would be like saying that as an alternative to walking you still walk, but just clack coconut shells together and pretend you’re riding a horse.... That was only funny because of the sheer absurdity of it.
Your point was to have an alternative system. I don't see why it's necessary.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But it’s not “just because.” The point is to have an alternative to Spellcasting. It cannot be an alternative if it’s still just Spellcasting.
It would be like saying that as an alternative to walking you still walk, but just clack coconut shells together and pretend you’re riding a horse.... That was only funny because of the sheer absurdity of it.
Your point was to have an alternative system. I don't see why it's necessary.
Well in that case they may as well scrap the whole thing and not even bother. We have Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Artificers, and a couple of 1/3 casters as well as other subclasses that cast spells. Who needs another spellcaster at this point? If that’s all it’s going to be then just bin the whole thing and move on.
Well in that case they may as well scrap the whole thing and not even bother. We have Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Artificers, and a couple of 1/3 casters as well as other subclasses that cast spells. Who needs another spellcaster at this point? If that’s all it’s going to be then just bin the whole thing and move on.
I don't feel that way, but I think we've already covered that. I think your insistence that there be a completely new subsystem that is wholly divorced and has no whiff whatsoever of spellcasting is unnecessary. Babies, bathwater, and all.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Well in that case they may as well scrap the whole thing and not even bother. We have Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Artificers, and a couple of 1/3 casters as well as other subclasses that cast spells. Who needs another spellcaster at this point? If that’s all it’s going to be then just bin the whole thing and move on.
I don't feel that way, but I think we've already covered that. I think your insistence that there be a completely new subsystem that is wholly divorced and has no whiff whatsoever of spellcasting is unnecessary. Babies, bathwater, and all.
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Well in that case they may as well scrap the whole thing and not even bother. We have Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Artificers, and a couple of 1/3 casters as well as other subclasses that cast spells. Who needs another spellcaster at this point? If that’s all it’s going to be then just bin the whole thing and move on.
I don't feel that way, but I think we've already covered that. I think your insistence that there be a completely new subsystem that is wholly divorced and has no whiff whatsoever of spellcasting is unnecessary. Babies, bathwater, and all.
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
okay so the mystic and how diffrent it was, and i too would prefer an revised mystic or something completely diffrent, but does it at all matter? Does it really matter if he or she uses arbitrary "slots" that must be spent to use their powers, does it matter if the levitation powers behave almost exactly the same to an levitate spell? from an in universe standpoint, if psionics never needs any silly components and otherwise acts the way an psion would act, would anyone in universe be able to tell the difference between an psion who spends spell slots, an psion who spends psi points, and a psion who casts spells that work in antimagic feilds?
Or to rephrase my question, other than "it is the way it has been for previous editions", why is there an mechanical need for an separate system for psionics? merely to breathe new air into the aging 5th editon system? just becuase it would be more interesting? So that this system may be used to bring a second wave of caster subclasses for the monk, fighter and rouge, potentially even for the ranger and paladin? So that it may change the design of future psionic monsters, making an fight with an ultralithid, elder aboleth, saphire dragon or elder brain more exiting and unique? simply because previous classes already use such systems and you truly want the rare few new classes we get to be special? What are you looking for in a new psionics system, why exactly do you want it so badly?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
You are one of the first people to actually ask me that question. And we have been friendly for a while so I expect you will actually respect my reasoning. So, here goes:
I started playing D&D back in 2e. Very early on I realized something about D&D, and it has held true from D&D through AD&D, back to D&D with 3e, and then onto 3.5 edition. I completely skipped 4e, but that realization continues to hold merit with me now in 5e. For almost 30 years I have continued to play D&D, not because of my realization, but rather in spite of it. That realization is that the Vancian system of magic is extremely stupid.
Back in the 1970s an LSD addled author thought “It would be cool, if like, the spells actually lived in your mind man. Like, your brain was a hostel for spells on their way from your spellbook to being cast.” (WTF?!?) And because that radically new concept happened at the same time that Gary Gygax & co. were designing D&D, they included it, and we’ve been stuck with it since.
When I realized that my very first Arcane Magic User (before there was a “Wizard” in D&D) could either prepare 1 spell for a fight or 1 spell for something else, but had to decide in the morning before I knew what was going on I could not fathom how something that stupid was actually the way it was supposed to work. (Now, I realize that Vancian magic in 5e is nowhere nearly so asinine. I do get that.) After that I did not play another “Magic User” for a long time.
When my DM at the time realized I never played casters he asked me why, and when I told him he said “Here, check this out” and he handed me his copy of the Complete Psionics Handbook. All of a sudden there was an alternative to Spellcasting that didn’t seem stupid. I could make a character that was actually useful before 5th level. I could have a character who just knew how to do “magic type stuff” without all of the BS (read sheer unadulterated stupidity) involved with the Vancian system. I could make a character that didn’t have to pick which spells I thought they might need before the character had even had a cup of coffee. My character could push extra energy into their abilities to make them more powerful. There was a system that actually made sense to me as a rational human being.
I will be completely honest with you, I didn’t actually find Psionics any better than Spellcasting at the time. It was actually so frikin’ complicated as to be harder to use, and the powers failed half the time so the Psi Points got wasted a lot. But none of that mattered to me, what mattered to me was that I had a choice. There was an alternative, even if I didn’t like it any better.
For almost 30 years, one of the things I have always been disappointed with was the continued use of Vancian Magic. And for that same length of time, one of the things I was always most excite about was when Psionics came out simply because it wasn’t the Vancian system. Having an alternative, any alternative to the Vancian System has been more important to my continued enjoyment of D&D I’m every edition I have played.
Now, as I have already admitted, the 5e system does not have all of the problems that older systems did. There are Cantrips now, Ritual Casting, and upcasting. “Prepared Spell Slots” have gone the way of the dinosaurs. For the most part, everything that used to make Vancian Magic suck hairy eggs no longer exist. But now, I have no real choice. Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics Druids, Paladins, Rangers, subclasses like EK, AT.... They all do pretty much the same things in pretty much the same ways as each other. Sure there are variations, but the majority of them all come from everything else that they do, not the Spellcasting aspects.
A “Spellcasting Ability Modifier” works the same no matter which ability it is. Prepared vs. Known still uses mostly the same core list of spells. They are all very much the same as one another when it comes to what they can cast and how they cast them. Sure there are some spells that are class specific. But those spells work exactly the same as the spells that are not class specific. Hex and Fly still function mechanically the same, we just check off the spell slot.
When I heard that the Artificer was on its way to 5e I was ecstatic. I thought we were going to get something different from all the other spellcasters. Instead what we got was another spellcaster and instructions to “Just pretend that they use gadgets instead of casting spells, but everything still actually works exactly the same.” What a letdown. Do I like the Artificer? Sure I do. Am I still disappointed that it wasn’t something other than a spellcaster? You better believe I am.
So to answer your point about if anyone “in universe” would ever even notice the difference I can only say that they would probably not, in that you are 100% correct. But my rebuttal is that I don’t live “in universe.” I live in Pennsylvania. I will know the difference. In universe arguments mean absolutely nothing to me in this regard. Simply having a choice between 9 Spellcasting classes (+ 2 Spellcasting subclasses) or 1 class that does similar stuff in a mechanically different way is why I want it. That’s why it’s so important to me.
The rest of you all have, what, more than 60 options available (combined subclass options) for characters that already work the same way. I can’t have 1 class (with a half dozen subclasses) that don’t?!? I am literally asking for 1/10th (10%, however it makes sense for you) the number of options. Is that really too much to ask?!?
What I would really like is for D&D to completely abandon Vancian Spellcasting in it’s entirety. I also realize how utterly ridiculous that would be. So instead I am asking for a compromise of just one measly little class that “does magic” without “casting spells.” Just the one class, that’s it. If I can accept 30 years of Vancian Magic (with no end in sight) and 9 entire classes, each with a slew of subclasses (plus two more subclasses for Fighter and Rogue) that all use it, why is it too much to ask that the comunity accept one class that doesn’t? Just the one.
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
But those spells are still drawn from the same list, and so are still part of the same system. Also, not all Psions should be Monks.
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
i had to google what Vancian magic is, might have a more extensive or specific meaning but
"A form of magic based on the existence of spells that must be prepared in advance, for specific purposes, and that can be used a finite number of times." as defined by wiktionary, from that definition since you can only use your spells an finite amount of times before you run out of ki four elements would be vancian, and the definition in tv tropes seems to indicate only the old kind of prepreation system where what spell you use for the spell slot is determined in advance, so then no 5e magic is vancian, or only clerics, druids and wizards are vanician
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
i had to google what Vancian magic is, might have a more extensive or specific meaning but
"A form of magic based on the existence of spells that must be prepared in advance, for specific purposes, and that can be used a finite number of times." as defined by wiktionary, from that definition since you can only use your spells an finite amount of times before you run out of ki four elements would be vancian, and the definition in tv tropes seems to indicate only the old kind of prepreation system where what spell you use for the spell slot is determined in advance, so then no 5e magic is vancian, or only clerics, druids and wizards are vanician
Vancian comes from an author named Vance. Technically you are correct that 5e is more like “Vancian light” or “The Diet Coke of Vancian Magic.” But now when people use the term they generally mean “leveled spell slots to cast spells of corresponding levels.”
So, maybe Extra Attack isn't a great example, but Arcane Archers are. They're magic. They have a new simple magic system. The Psi Dice proves that they're not against making new systems only for psionics.
Why can't they do that with a class, and not have it be a caster?
creating just eight effects that are thematically apropriate to an arrow mage is a lot easier than creating an psionics system advanced enough to last an entire class. How much overlap could an psion have with spellcasters? would you be fine with a handful of disiplinces fules by spell slots and are similar to spells, but who dont require any components and are not considered magical?
If they make a Dark Sun book without including a non-caster psion class, I won't allow it in my games. If they do psionics wrong, I'm not allowing it. Until they publish an Unearthed Arcana with the 3 requirements I have for the psionic system in 5e, I'm not voting for it.
And if they would simply stop trying to make Psionics as something similar but different from Spellcasting and just make something entirely different from spellcasting it would have led to different results. That was the issue with the Mystic.
The issue with the Mystic is that the devs didn't have a clear picture of what a Mystic should do. The actual mechanics was the least of their problems. Is it a damage dealing class? A support class? What distinguishes them from other classes in that niche? "Psionics class" is not an identity.
well the thing is the mystic class had to represent every kind of psion with the mystic class, you cannot have one psionic class for utillity, and blasting and one for tanking and support for instance, an mystic will only ever have a fraction of the total available disiplinces, just like an wizard, bard or cleric it can be built to fit a certain niche, they are worse at out right damage and blasting compared to sorcerers and wizards, and their disiplinces generally falls into the categories of buffs, utillity, debuffs and anything to do with weapon usage / melee mystics. think of them like clerics, they have a little bulk and a little armor and a few weapons, and depending on subclass they can deal quite a bit of damage, yet where they are at their best is with helping their allies, un-helping their foes and providing some useful spells.
To distinguish them further from clerics and wizards, they are a lot more "here and now" than what their spellcasting peers are, they dont get better spells with longer casting times, they dont get the luxury of ritual casting and their disiplinces almost always have short durations described in minutes, with maybe a handful of effects lasting an hour, with only a single example of an effect lasting for a total of 8 hours. Furthermore a much greater portion of their disiplince effects require concentration to maintain compared to other classes, and once they reach 9th level they will no longer gain any more powerful effects than what they weilded previously, just more control of the powers they do weild, suddenly capable of concetrating on the equivolent of an 5th and 1st level spell at once instead of an single 6th level spell slot, or the equivalent of an 4th and a 2nd level slot at once, or the equivialent of three 2nd level spells, but cannot do anything greater than a 5th level spell. No raw increase in power, just more utillity.
You might see them as more extreme sorcerers, they do not know much, but they are flexible with the disiplinces that they know with their spell point like system of casting and their psionic mastery feature
They seem to have had at least some idea of what the class should and should not do, it has its own little identity still
Sure lets add another system that will bog the game down, where if it is a magic system no game slowdown. Making a system just to be special mind dudes is not the right way and I hope it never happens the Psi Die works good and keeps stuff moving, I think what this Psionic UA is just righr.
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
But those spells are still drawn from the same list, and so are still part of the same system. Also, not all Psions should be Monks.
*sigh* It was just an example of a system of spellcasting that is distinctly non-Vancian. I didn't say psions have to be monks, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of ways to use the already very robust spells system in ways that are different. You just seem very stuck on the idea that psionics has to use a completely different sub system and I feel like it's just some sort of unreasonable distaste for using the same sub system.
Ok, so I haven't fully finished it yet, but my personal take on a Mystic subclass I'm calling the Shaper is this: They get access to a list of spells known at level 3 when they take the subclass as well as a Mystic Energy Pool equal to something like the highest number on their Psi die + their Int modifier. They can cast any spell on their known list, they don't have to prepare them nor do they have slots, but it costs one point of Mystic Energy per spell level to cast. As an action, they can concentrate for a turn to refill their pool. At the beginning of their next turn, if they have not lost concentration, they roll their psi-die and refill the pool with the result. They ignore the verbal components of all their spells and they can use gemstones as foci. As a special rule, if the spell has a material component with a gold cost, they can use a gemstone with the same cost instead. their list of spells known grows as they level, like the UA Ranger Variant, but with a bigger spell list.
Is that sufficiently different enough for you? I somehow feel it is not.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This is semi-related, but if I had my way in an ideal world, divine spellcasting would be called "miracles" and use a different system from arcane casting, which uses the traditional tropes of witchcraft and the occult.
And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
But those spells are still drawn from the same list, and so are still part of the same system. Also, not all Psions should be Monks.
*sigh* It was just an example of a system of spellcasting that is distinctly non-Vancian. I didn't say psions have to be monks, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of ways to use the already very robust spells system in ways that are different. You just seem very stuck on the idea that psionics has to use a completely different sub system and I feel like it's just some sort of unreasonable distaste for using the same sub system.
Ok, so I haven't fully finished it yet, but my personal take on a Mystic subclass I'm calling the Shaper is this: They get access to a list of spells known at level 3 when they take the subclass as well as a Mystic Energy Pool equal to something like the highest number on their Psi die + their Int modifier. They can cast any spell on their known list, they don't have to prepare them nor do they have slots, but it costs one point of Mystic Energy per spell level to cast. As an action, they can concentrate for a turn to refill their pool. At the beginning of their next turn, if they have not lost concentration, they roll their psi-die and refill the pool with the result. They ignore the verbal components of all their spells and they can use gemstones as foci. As a special rule, if the spell has a material component with a gold cost, they can use a gemstone with the same cost instead. their list of spells known grows as they level, like the UA Ranger Variant, but with a bigger spell list.
Is that sufficiently different enough for you? I somehow feel it is not.
You would be correct, it is not different enough for me. Any system that includes any of the following is insufficiently different as far as I am concerned:
Spells Known
Spell Slots
Spell Points
Spell Lists
Spells
Spellcasting
spell “casting”
Spell Components
Psionics=/=Spellcasting The closest I would willingly accept is the possibility of “reproducing the effects of (but does not cast)” and not for anything above Cantrips.
Lemme put it this way, as far as I am concerned I am already the centrist by willing to go as far as accepting Psionics as “Magic.” The rest of the diehards won’t even meet you at that halfway point.
So, maybe Extra Attack isn't a great example, but Arcane Archers are. They're magic. They have a new simple magic system. The Psi Dice proves that they're not against making new systems only for psionics.
Why can't they do that with a class, and not have it be a caster?
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creating just eight effects that are thematically apropriate to an arrow mage is a lot easier than creating an psionics system advanced enough to last an entire class. How much overlap could an psion have with spellcasters? would you be fine with a handful of disiplinces fules by spell slots and are similar to spells, but who dont require any components and are not considered magical?
what are those three requirements exactly?
well the thing is the mystic class had to represent every kind of psion with the mystic class, you cannot have one psionic class for utillity, and blasting and one for tanking and support for instance, an mystic will only ever have a fraction of the total available disiplinces, just like an wizard, bard or cleric it can be built to fit a certain niche, they are worse at out right damage and blasting compared to sorcerers and wizards, and their disiplinces generally falls into the categories of buffs, utillity, debuffs and anything to do with weapon usage / melee mystics. think of them like clerics, they have a little bulk and a little armor and a few weapons, and depending on subclass they can deal quite a bit of damage, yet where they are at their best is with helping their allies, un-helping their foes and providing some useful spells.
To distinguish them further from clerics and wizards, they are a lot more "here and now" than what their spellcasting peers are, they dont get better spells with longer casting times, they dont get the luxury of ritual casting and their disiplinces almost always have short durations described in minutes, with maybe a handful of effects lasting an hour, with only a single example of an effect lasting for a total of 8 hours. Furthermore a much greater portion of their disiplince effects require concentration to maintain compared to other classes, and once they reach 9th level they will no longer gain any more powerful effects than what they weilded previously, just more control of the powers they do weild, suddenly capable of concetrating on the equivolent of an 5th and 1st level spell at once instead of an single 6th level spell slot, or the equivalent of an 4th and a 2nd level slot at once, or the equivialent of three 2nd level spells, but cannot do anything greater than a 5th level spell. No raw increase in power, just more utillity.
You might see them as more extreme sorcerers, they do not know much, but they are flexible with the disiplinces that they know with their spell point like system of casting and their psionic mastery feature
They seem to have had at least some idea of what the class should and should not do, it has its own little identity still
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don’t think Psionicist should have spell slots or “casting” at all.
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A spell is just a discrete supernatural effect. It can have its source in arcane magic, divine magic, or psionic power. I don't see why they have to rewrite a telekinesis effect when they can just reference the Telekinesis spell. Sure they can tweak it, maybe it doesn't use verbal components or something, but the spell effect is source agnostic. Having to make a new subsystem just because seems inelegant.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But it’s not “just because.” The point is to have an alternative to Spellcasting. It cannot be an alternative if it’s still just Spellcasting.
It would be like saying that as an alternative to walking you still walk, but just clack coconut shells together and pretend you’re riding a horse.... That was only funny because of the sheer absurdity of it.
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Your point was to have an alternative system. I don't see why it's necessary.
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Well in that case they may as well scrap the whole thing and not even bother. We have Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, Artificers, and a couple of 1/3 casters as well as other subclasses that cast spells. Who needs another spellcaster at this point? If that’s all it’s going to be then just bin the whole thing and move on.
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I don't feel that way, but I think we've already covered that. I think your insistence that there be a completely new subsystem that is wholly divorced and has no whiff whatsoever of spellcasting is unnecessary. Babies, bathwater, and all.
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And to paraphrase your very own argument: “You feel that way, I don’t.” I think have one single alternative to Vancian Spellcasting is necessary.
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okay so the mystic and how diffrent it was, and i too would prefer an revised mystic or something completely diffrent, but does it at all matter? Does it really matter if he or she uses arbitrary "slots" that must be spent to use their powers, does it matter if the levitation powers behave almost exactly the same to an levitate spell? from an in universe standpoint, if psionics never needs any silly components and otherwise acts the way an psion would act, would anyone in universe be able to tell the difference between an psion who spends spell slots, an psion who spends psi points, and a psion who casts spells that work in antimagic feilds?
Or to rephrase my question, other than "it is the way it has been for previous editions", why is there an mechanical need for an separate system for psionics? merely to breathe new air into the aging 5th editon system? just becuase it would be more interesting? So that this system may be used to bring a second wave of caster subclasses for the monk, fighter and rouge, potentially even for the ranger and paladin? So that it may change the design of future psionic monsters, making an fight with an ultralithid, elder aboleth, saphire dragon or elder brain more exiting and unique? simply because previous classes already use such systems and you truly want the rare few new classes we get to be special? What are you looking for in a new psionics system, why exactly do you want it so badly?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Why is all spellcasting assumed to be Vancian? Four Element monks use spells, but not spell slots. Put aside that the Four Element monks are pretty bad, the system they use is a good skeleton of spells that don't use spell slots.
Canto alla vita
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
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ArtificeMeal,
You are one of the first people to actually ask me that question. And we have been friendly for a while so I expect you will actually respect my reasoning. So, here goes:
I started playing D&D back in 2e. Very early on I realized something about D&D, and it has held true from D&D through AD&D, back to D&D with 3e, and then onto 3.5 edition. I completely skipped 4e, but that realization continues to hold merit with me now in 5e. For almost 30 years I have continued to play D&D, not because of my realization, but rather in spite of it. That realization is that the Vancian system of magic is extremely stupid.
Back in the 1970s an LSD addled author thought “It would be cool, if like, the spells actually lived in your mind man. Like, your brain was a hostel for spells on their way from your spellbook to being cast.” (WTF?!?) And because that radically new concept happened at the same time that Gary Gygax & co. were designing D&D, they included it, and we’ve been stuck with it since.
When I realized that my very first Arcane Magic User (before there was a “Wizard” in D&D) could either prepare 1 spell for a fight or 1 spell for something else, but had to decide in the morning before I knew what was going on I could not fathom how something that stupid was actually the way it was supposed to work. (Now, I realize that Vancian magic in 5e is nowhere nearly so asinine. I do get that.) After that I did not play another “Magic User” for a long time.
When my DM at the time realized I never played casters he asked me why, and when I told him he said “Here, check this out” and he handed me his copy of the Complete Psionics Handbook. All of a sudden there was an alternative to Spellcasting that didn’t seem stupid. I could make a character that was actually useful before 5th level. I could have a character who just knew how to do “magic type stuff” without all of the BS (read sheer unadulterated stupidity) involved with the Vancian system. I could make a character that didn’t have to pick which spells I thought they might need before the character had even had a cup of coffee. My character could push extra energy into their abilities to make them more powerful. There was a system that actually made sense to me as a rational human being.
I will be completely honest with you, I didn’t actually find Psionics any better than Spellcasting at the time. It was actually so frikin’ complicated as to be harder to use, and the powers failed half the time so the Psi Points got wasted a lot. But none of that mattered to me, what mattered to me was that I had a choice. There was an alternative, even if I didn’t like it any better.
For almost 30 years, one of the things I have always been disappointed with was the continued use of Vancian Magic. And for that same length of time, one of the things I was always most excite about was when Psionics came out simply because it wasn’t the Vancian system. Having an alternative, any alternative to the Vancian System has been more important to my continued enjoyment of D&D I’m every edition I have played.
Now, as I have already admitted, the 5e system does not have all of the problems that older systems did. There are Cantrips now, Ritual Casting, and upcasting. “Prepared Spell Slots” have gone the way of the dinosaurs. For the most part, everything that used to make Vancian Magic suck hairy eggs no longer exist. But now, I have no real choice. Wizards, Warlocks, Sorcerers, Bards, Clerics Druids, Paladins, Rangers, subclasses like EK, AT.... They all do pretty much the same things in pretty much the same ways as each other. Sure there are variations, but the majority of them all come from everything else that they do, not the Spellcasting aspects.
A “Spellcasting Ability Modifier” works the same no matter which ability it is. Prepared vs. Known still uses mostly the same core list of spells. They are all very much the same as one another when it comes to what they can cast and how they cast them. Sure there are some spells that are class specific. But those spells work exactly the same as the spells that are not class specific. Hex and Fly still function mechanically the same, we just check off the spell slot.
When I heard that the Artificer was on its way to 5e I was ecstatic. I thought we were going to get something different from all the other spellcasters. Instead what we got was another spellcaster and instructions to “Just pretend that they use gadgets instead of casting spells, but everything still actually works exactly the same.” What a letdown. Do I like the Artificer? Sure I do. Am I still disappointed that it wasn’t something other than a spellcaster? You better believe I am.
So to answer your point about if anyone “in universe” would ever even notice the difference I can only say that they would probably not, in that you are 100% correct. But my rebuttal is that I don’t live “in universe.” I live in Pennsylvania. I will know the difference. In universe arguments mean absolutely nothing to me in this regard. Simply having a choice between 9 Spellcasting classes (+ 2 Spellcasting subclasses) or 1 class that does similar stuff in a mechanically different way is why I want it. That’s why it’s so important to me.
The rest of you all have, what, more than 60 options available (combined subclass options) for characters that already work the same way. I can’t have 1 class (with a half dozen subclasses) that don’t?!? I am literally asking for 1/10th (10%, however it makes sense for you) the number of options. Is that really too much to ask?!?
What I would really like is for D&D to completely abandon Vancian Spellcasting in it’s entirety. I also realize how utterly ridiculous that would be. So instead I am asking for a compromise of just one measly little class that “does magic” without “casting spells.” Just the one class, that’s it. If I can accept 30 years of Vancian Magic (with no end in sight) and 9 entire classes, each with a slew of subclasses (plus two more subclasses for Fighter and Rogue) that all use it, why is it too much to ask that the comunity accept one class that doesn’t? Just the one.
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But those spells are still drawn from the same list, and so are still part of the same system. Also, not all Psions should be Monks.
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i had to google what Vancian magic is, might have a more extensive or specific meaning but
"A form of magic based on the existence of spells that must be prepared in advance, for specific purposes, and that can be used a finite number of times." as defined by wiktionary, from that definition since you can only use your spells an finite amount of times before you run out of ki four elements would be vancian, and the definition in tv tropes seems to indicate only the old kind of prepreation system where what spell you use for the spell slot is determined in advance, so then no 5e magic is vancian, or only clerics, druids and wizards are vanician
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Vancian comes from an author named Vance. Technically you are correct that 5e is more like “Vancian light” or “The Diet Coke of Vancian Magic.” But now when people use the term they generally mean “leveled spell slots to cast spells of corresponding levels.”
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Sure lets add another system that will bog the game down, where if it is a magic system no game slowdown. Making a system just to be special mind dudes is not the right way and I hope it never happens the Psi Die works good and keeps stuff moving, I think what this Psionic UA is just righr.
I love the Psi Die! I just don’t want the Spellcasting.
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*sigh* It was just an example of a system of spellcasting that is distinctly non-Vancian. I didn't say psions have to be monks, I'm just pointing out that there are plenty of ways to use the already very robust spells system in ways that are different. You just seem very stuck on the idea that psionics has to use a completely different sub system and I feel like it's just some sort of unreasonable distaste for using the same sub system.
Ok, so I haven't fully finished it yet, but my personal take on a Mystic subclass I'm calling the Shaper is this: They get access to a list of spells known at level 3 when they take the subclass as well as a Mystic Energy Pool equal to something like the highest number on their Psi die + their Int modifier. They can cast any spell on their known list, they don't have to prepare them nor do they have slots, but it costs one point of Mystic Energy per spell level to cast. As an action, they can concentrate for a turn to refill their pool. At the beginning of their next turn, if they have not lost concentration, they roll their psi-die and refill the pool with the result. They ignore the verbal components of all their spells and they can use gemstones as foci. As a special rule, if the spell has a material component with a gold cost, they can use a gemstone with the same cost instead. their list of spells known grows as they level, like the UA Ranger Variant, but with a bigger spell list.
Is that sufficiently different enough for you? I somehow feel it is not.
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I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This is semi-related, but if I had my way in an ideal world, divine spellcasting would be called "miracles" and use a different system from arcane casting, which uses the traditional tropes of witchcraft and the occult.
You would be correct, it is not different enough for me. Any system that includes any of the following is insufficiently different as far as I am concerned:
Psionics=/=Spellcasting The closest I would willingly accept is the possibility of “reproducing the effects of (but does not cast)” and not for anything above Cantrips.
Lemme put it this way, as far as I am concerned I am already the centrist by willing to go as far as accepting Psionics as “Magic.” The rest of the diehards won’t even meet you at that halfway point.
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