What I'm hearing from you, Positron, is basically "I get what you're saying, and I can empathize, but you're wrong so go away already."
Saying that no design space exists for deep mechanical systems applied to classes or subclasses because 5e is supposed to Just be Simple, Stupid is exactly the problem. No, it is not easier for people who wanted to play the complex, mechanically rich approach to psionics to dumb themselves down to the dumbed-down version than it is the other way around. There is exactly ONE character class in this game designed to appeal to people who want to be more than just a Champion fighter hitting things with a Whuppin' Stick, and as much as I love warlocks, not every character I play can be a warlock.
No, wizards do not count. Wizards aren't even a character class - they're the game's spellcasting engine attached to a mannequin designed to do nothing but carry spells. if you understand spells, wizards are a very simple and easy class to run.
No, not even artificers count. Artificer, the base class, is a straightforward design with few novel features. The only complexity and strategy inherent in artificer gameplay is the fact that you can incorporate magical items into your core gameplan (and finding ways to gabnoozle the DM into letting you make custom items and equipment), but since every non-artificer player in 5e is expecting that artificer to give all their infusions away to other players in much the same way the cleric is expected to use all its spells and resources on party buffs and healing, artificers tend to end up with very simple gameplay as well.
I get it. You don't want mechanics "getting in the way" of your story. You don't want new systems or rules getting between you and saving the beautiful dragon from that marauding princess. here's the thing, though - those things only get in the way if you let them. Instead, use them as a springboard to reach new and interesting ideas, stories you wouldn't have thought to tell otherwise.
And in the interim, maybe admit that at some FREAKING POINT, it's the turn of the people who want that mechanical depth and richness, ne? Because if the 'vocal minority' is consistently told they're not important, their desires don't matter, and it's bad business to do things they want to see done?
Well. Cool digital tool or not, we'll be out. And eventually, it'll be your turn to be the Vocal Minority who gets resoundingly ignored because the company is only ever supposed to blindly follow along with what the mindless, faceless, pointless Internet Blob Monster known as "The Majority" babbles and gurgles from its uncountable frothing maws.
It’s not that they are complicated. I can understand them, but you refer to these as a springboard to tell different stories. Again, this is the minority opinion because most of us are not using the mechanic as a springboard at all. There would be almost no difference between my character using spell slots or a psi die to perform psionic feats... other than using a new mechanics for no apparent reason. It’s different for the sake of being different, unless explained otherwise.
What I'm hearing from you, Positron, is basically "I get what you're saying, and I can empathize, but you're wrong so go away already."
Saying that no design space exists for deep mechanical systems applied to classes or subclasses because 5e is supposed to Just be Simple, Stupid is exactly the problem. No, it is not easier for people who wanted to play the complex, mechanically rich approach to psionics to dumb themselves down to the dumbed-down version than it is the other way around. There is exactly ONE character class in this game designed to appeal to people who want to be more than just a Champion fighter hitting things with a Whuppin' Stick, and as much as I love warlocks, not every character I play can be a warlock.
No, wizards do not count. Wizards aren't even a character class - they're the game's spellcasting engine attached to a mannequin designed to do nothing but carry spells. if you understand spells, wizards are a very simple and easy class to run.
No, not even artificers count. Artificer, the base class, is a straightforward design with few novel features. The only complexity and strategy inherent in artificer gameplay is the fact that you can incorporate magical items into your core gameplan (and finding ways to gabnoozle the DM into letting you make custom items and equipment), but since every non-artificer player in 5e is expecting that artificer to give all their infusions away to other players in much the same way the cleric is expected to use all its spells and resources on party buffs and healing, artificers tend to end up with very simple gameplay as well.
I get it. You don't want mechanics "getting in the way" of your story. You don't want new systems or rules getting between you and saving the beautiful dragon from that marauding princess. here's the thing, though - those things only get in the way if you let them. Instead, use them as a springboard to reach new and interesting ideas, stories you wouldn't have thought to tell otherwise.
And in the interim, maybe admit that at some FREAKING POINT, it's the turn of the people who want that mechanical depth and richness, ne? Because if the 'vocal minority' is consistently told they're not important, their desires don't matter, and it's bad business to do things they want to see done?
Well. Cool digital tool or not, we'll be out. And eventually, it'll be your turn to be the Vocal Minority who gets resoundingly ignored because the company is only ever supposed to blindly follow along with what the mindless, faceless, pointless Internet Blob Monster known as "The Majority" babbles and gurgles from its uncountable frothing maws.
It’s not that they are complicated. I can understand them, but you refer to these as a springboard to tell different stories. Again, this is the minority opinion because most of us are not using the mechanic as a springboard at all. There would be almost no difference between my character using spell slots or a psi die to perform psionic feats... other than using a new mechanics for no apparent reason. It’s different for the sake of being different, unless explained otherwise.
Did you know that many mind flayers have a disdain for arcane spellcasting (aka spell slot casting) because they believe psionics to be superior? This isn't just a Dark Sun thing. Psionics, or the power of the mind, or whatever you wish to call it, is meant to be fundamentally different in-universe. If I'm using the exact same system for both arcane casting and psionics, I have to use my imagination alone to make any distinction, and if that always cut it, then there would be no need for different classes.
What I'm hearing from you, Positron, is basically "I get what you're saying, and I can empathize, but you're wrong so go away already."
Saying that no design space exists for deep mechanical systems applied to classes or subclasses because 5e is supposed to Just be Simple, Stupid is exactly the problem. No, it is not easier for people who wanted to play the complex, mechanically rich approach to psionics to dumb themselves down to the dumbed-down version than it is the other way around. There is exactly ONE character class in this game designed to appeal to people who want to be more than just a Champion fighter hitting things with a Whuppin' Stick, and as much as I love warlocks, not every character I play can be a warlock.
No, wizards do not count. Wizards aren't even a character class - they're the game's spellcasting engine attached to a mannequin designed to do nothing but carry spells. if you understand spells, wizards are a very simple and easy class to run.
No, not even artificers count. Artificer, the base class, is a straightforward design with few novel features. The only complexity and strategy inherent in artificer gameplay is the fact that you can incorporate magical items into your core gameplan (and finding ways to gabnoozle the DM into letting you make custom items and equipment), but since every non-artificer player in 5e is expecting that artificer to give all their infusions away to other players in much the same way the cleric is expected to use all its spells and resources on party buffs and healing, artificers tend to end up with very simple gameplay as well.
I get it. You don't want mechanics "getting in the way" of your story. You don't want new systems or rules getting between you and saving the beautiful dragon from that marauding princess. here's the thing, though - those things only get in the way if you let them. Instead, use them as a springboard to reach new and interesting ideas, stories you wouldn't have thought to tell otherwise.
And in the interim, maybe admit that at some FREAKING POINT, it's the turn of the people who want that mechanical depth and richness, ne? Because if the 'vocal minority' is consistently told they're not important, their desires don't matter, and it's bad business to do things they want to see done?
Well. Cool digital tool or not, we'll be out. And eventually, it'll be your turn to be the Vocal Minority who gets resoundingly ignored because the company is only ever supposed to blindly follow along with what the mindless, faceless, pointless Internet Blob Monster known as "The Majority" babbles and gurgles from its uncountable frothing maws.
It’s not that they are complicated. I can understand them, but you refer to these as a springboard to tell different stories. Again, this is the minority opinion because most of us are not using the mechanic as a springboard at all. There would be almost no difference between my character using spell slots or a psi die to perform psionic feats... other than using a new mechanics for no apparent reason. It’s different for the sake of being different, unless explained otherwise.
Why have Druids when Nature clerics exist? Why have Wizards when Eldritch Knights exist? Your argument is making the assumptions that they'll do the same thing.
Psionics deserves new mechanics. It's not for the sake of having new mechanics, but that is a plus. It's because Spellcasting is distinct from psionics. It has been in Dark Sun, Mind Flayers, and lore for a long time.
Also, your argument that they don't have to appease to the minority because they're a smaller group of the community and therefore less important probably won't fly well with any other minority group. Now, to be clear, I'm not comparing our not-receiving mechanics that we want to being racially discriminated against, but I am saying that the fact that we're smaller doesn't make us less important.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
What I'm hearing from you, Positron, is basically "I get what you're saying, and I can empathize, but you're wrong so go away already."
Saying that no design space exists for deep mechanical systems applied to classes or subclasses because 5e is supposed to Just be Simple, Stupid is exactly the problem. No, it is not easier for people who wanted to play the complex, mechanically rich approach to psionics to dumb themselves down to the dumbed-down version than it is the other way around. There is exactly ONE character class in this game designed to appeal to people who want to be more than just a Champion fighter hitting things with a Whuppin' Stick, and as much as I love warlocks, not every character I play can be a warlock.
No, wizards do not count. Wizards aren't even a character class - they're the game's spellcasting engine attached to a mannequin designed to do nothing but carry spells. if you understand spells, wizards are a very simple and easy class to run.
No, not even artificers count. Artificer, the base class, is a straightforward design with few novel features. The only complexity and strategy inherent in artificer gameplay is the fact that you can incorporate magical items into your core gameplan (and finding ways to gabnoozle the DM into letting you make custom items and equipment), but since every non-artificer player in 5e is expecting that artificer to give all their infusions away to other players in much the same way the cleric is expected to use all its spells and resources on party buffs and healing, artificers tend to end up with very simple gameplay as well.
I get it. You don't want mechanics "getting in the way" of your story. You don't want new systems or rules getting between you and saving the beautiful dragon from that marauding princess. here's the thing, though - those things only get in the way if you let them. Instead, use them as a springboard to reach new and interesting ideas, stories you wouldn't have thought to tell otherwise.
And in the interim, maybe admit that at some FREAKING POINT, it's the turn of the people who want that mechanical depth and richness, ne? Because if the 'vocal minority' is consistently told they're not important, their desires don't matter, and it's bad business to do things they want to see done?
Well. Cool digital tool or not, we'll be out. And eventually, it'll be your turn to be the Vocal Minority who gets resoundingly ignored because the company is only ever supposed to blindly follow along with what the mindless, faceless, pointless Internet Blob Monster known as "The Majority" babbles and gurgles from its uncountable frothing maws.
It’s not that they are complicated. I can understand them, but you refer to these as a springboard to tell different stories. Again, this is the minority opinion because most of us are not using the mechanic as a springboard at all. There would be almost no difference between my character using spell slots or a psi die to perform psionic feats... other than using a new mechanics for no apparent reason. It’s different for the sake of being different, unless explained otherwise.
Why have Druids when Nature clerics exist? Why have Wizards when Eldritch Knights exist? Your argument is making the assumptions that they'll do the same thing.
Psionics deserves new mechanics. It's not for the sake of having new mechanics, but that is a plus. It's because Spellcasting is distinct from psionics. It has been in Dark Sun, Mind Flayers, and lore for a long time.
Also, your argument that they don't have to appease to the minority because they're a smaller group of the community and therefore less important probably won't fly well with any other minority group. Now, to be clear, I'm not comparing our not-receiving mechanics that we want to being racially discriminated against, but I am saying that the fact that we're smaller doesn't make us less important.
I’m not saying you are less important, but that the design focuses won’t likely follow exactly what you want. Honestly, at this point, I’d be excited to see your Homebrew version of this to understand what exactly this could include and how it would fit in 5e.
Ignoring all the babble... for me, the Psion, or people with psionic abilities, are the ones that harvest the raw power from their imagination, willpower, and knowledge, creating their own reality inside their mind and then exteriorize this reality to impose their own rules over the rules from this reality. Their mind is overall the source of their power, and then they search to expand that with exploration, study, and meditation, knowing themselves and pushing the borders in the mind is crucial to amplify their Psionic powers. Thus, Intelligence is important because this represents how much they understand their thoughts and how much raw information and imagination their mind possesses. I like to say that Psionics is magic, but definitively not arcane or divine...
Magic is about modifying reality and nature laws in a way that benefits the user, and then I like to compare reality with a book that contains everything that it is, was, will be or would be, all rules that command this world, and everything that it is or not possible. An arcanist finds the cracks, the little mistakes in the text, and then use arcane knowledge, a powerful bloodline or the power taken from a power patron to modify the text slightly to obtain a determinate result, as being capable of flying or causing a huge flames explosion. A divine caster obtains their power through some divinity or cosmic aspect from reality, using this as a canalize to modify the book text, but not altering this directly. A psionic create an alternate book in their mind and then write in the pages, take this and inserts in the original book. Of course, because of this I always imagine that psionics should be instantaneous effects, short-duration ones, or concentration, one time that the real book would try to remove that external pages far more violently, but with the liberty to do things considerate impossible for other kinds of casters.
Again, this is my interpretation, and how I explained this for people that asked me the differences between casters and manifesters (user from psionic powers).
In other news, Dark Sun looks to be NOT on the horizon, which given recent developments with the psi dice I'd consider to be a good thing, if still disappointing...
Not trying to instigate the psion crowd, but if you haven't seen this video, JC says that the majority of their feedback is that players do /not/ want a unique mechanic for psionics.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Not trying to instigate the psion crowd, but if you haven't seen this video, JC says that the majority of their feedback is that players do /not/ want a unique mechanic for psionics.
Ah I did not read the whole thread, I just knew it existed. I didn't see the video advertiesed so I wasn't sure people had seen it. I wasn't trying to rub salt in people's wounds.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Ah I did not read the whole thread, I just knew it existed. I didn't see the video advertiesed so I wasn't sure people had seen it. I wasn't trying to rub salt in people's wounds.
Don't worry about it, I figured that was the case.
In other news, Dark Sun looks to be NOT on the horizon, which given recent developments with the psi dice I'd consider to be a good thing, if still disappointing...
My great hope from that video (and why I checked it out in the first place) was that the aberrant mind scored very highly. Hopefully, that means it will make a return. And hopefully less mucusy. That feedback was spot on too. Just give me the mechanics, I can figure out my own fluff.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
My great hope from that video (and why I checked it out in the first place) was that the aberrant mind scored very highly. Hopefully, that means it will make a return. And hopefully less mucusy. That feedback was spot on too. Just give me the mechanics, I can figure out my own fluff.
The video said that they got feedback to have more mucus. I want mucus. WotC better give the Aberrant Mind the same level of mucus as it had before.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
My great hope from that video (and why I checked it out in the first place) was that the aberrant mind scored very highly. Hopefully, that means it will make a return. And hopefully less mucusy. That feedback was spot on too. Just give me the mechanics, I can figure out my own fluff.
The video said that they got feedback to have more mucus. I want mucus. WotC better give the Aberrant Mind the same level of mucus as it had before.
In other news, Dark Sun looks to be NOT on the horizon, which given recent developments with the psi dice I'd consider to be a good thing, if still disappointing...
In other news, Dark Sun looks to be NOT on the horizon, which given recent developments with the psi dice I'd consider to be a good thing, if still disappointing...
In other news, Dark Sun looks to be NOT on the horizon, which given recent developments with the psi dice I'd consider to be a good thing, if still disappointing...
It’s not that they are complicated. I can understand them, but you refer to these as a springboard to tell different stories. Again, this is the minority opinion because most of us are not using the mechanic as a springboard at all. There would be almost no difference between my character using spell slots or a psi die to perform psionic feats... other than using a new mechanics for no apparent reason. It’s different for the sake of being different, unless explained otherwise.
Did you know that many mind flayers have a disdain for arcane spellcasting (aka spell slot casting) because they believe psionics to be superior? This isn't just a Dark Sun thing. Psionics, or the power of the mind, or whatever you wish to call it, is meant to be fundamentally different in-universe. If I'm using the exact same system for both arcane casting and psionics, I have to use my imagination alone to make any distinction, and if that always cut it, then there would be no need for different classes.
Why have Druids when Nature clerics exist? Why have Wizards when Eldritch Knights exist? Your argument is making the assumptions that they'll do the same thing.
Psionics deserves new mechanics. It's not for the sake of having new mechanics, but that is a plus. It's because Spellcasting is distinct from psionics. It has been in Dark Sun, Mind Flayers, and lore for a long time.
Also, your argument that they don't have to appease to the minority because they're a smaller group of the community and therefore less important probably won't fly well with any other minority group. Now, to be clear, I'm not comparing our not-receiving mechanics that we want to being racially discriminated against, but I am saying that the fact that we're smaller doesn't make us less important.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I’m not saying you are less important, but that the design focuses won’t likely follow exactly what you want. Honestly, at this point, I’d be excited to see your Homebrew version of this to understand what exactly this could include and how it would fit in 5e.
Ignoring all the babble... for me, the Psion, or people with psionic abilities, are the ones that harvest the raw power from their imagination, willpower, and knowledge, creating their own reality inside their mind and then exteriorize this reality to impose their own rules over the rules from this reality. Their mind is overall the source of their power, and then they search to expand that with exploration, study, and meditation, knowing themselves and pushing the borders in the mind is crucial to amplify their Psionic powers. Thus, Intelligence is important because this represents how much they understand their thoughts and how much raw information and imagination their mind possesses. I like to say that Psionics is magic, but definitively not arcane or divine...
Magic is about modifying reality and nature laws in a way that benefits the user, and then I like to compare reality with a book that contains everything that it is, was, will be or would be, all rules that command this world, and everything that it is or not possible. An arcanist finds the cracks, the little mistakes in the text, and then use arcane knowledge, a powerful bloodline or the power taken from a power patron to modify the text slightly to obtain a determinate result, as being capable of flying or causing a huge flames explosion. A divine caster obtains their power through some divinity or cosmic aspect from reality, using this as a canalize to modify the book text, but not altering this directly. A psionic create an alternate book in their mind and then write in the pages, take this and inserts in the original book. Of course, because of this I always imagine that psionics should be instantaneous effects, short-duration ones, or concentration, one time that the real book would try to remove that external pages far more violently, but with the liberty to do things considerate impossible for other kinds of casters.
Again, this is my interpretation, and how I explained this for people that asked me the differences between casters and manifesters (user from psionic powers).
In other news, Dark Sun looks to be NOT on the horizon, which given recent developments with the psi dice I'd consider to be a good thing, if still disappointing...
https://twitter.com/ChrisPerkinsDnD/status/1268917892306751491
Not trying to instigate the psion crowd, but if you haven't seen this video, JC says that the majority of their feedback is that players do /not/ want a unique mechanic for psionics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY78Dt0cBms
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That news was what kickstarted the lengthy conversation taking up the last two pages of this thread.
Thanks for the heads up crzyhawk, but we heard that a few days ago; it's why a whole bunch of us in the psionics crowd are feeling bummed right now.
Ah I did not read the whole thread, I just knew it existed. I didn't see the video advertiesed so I wasn't sure people had seen it. I wasn't trying to rub salt in people's wounds.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Very, very bummed.
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Don't worry about it, I figured that was the case.
I'm hopeful, though. They did say they want to appease our side as well.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That doesn't really mean anything, though. Chris Perkins is famous for teasing. He said that no one said Dark Sun, not that it isn't coming.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
My great hope from that video (and why I checked it out in the first place) was that the aberrant mind scored very highly. Hopefully, that means it will make a return. And hopefully less mucusy. That feedback was spot on too. Just give me the mechanics, I can figure out my own fluff.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
The video said that they got feedback to have more mucus. I want mucus. WotC better give the Aberrant Mind the same level of mucus as it had before.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
🤢🤮
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This is true, but with that said it's the only thing giving me hope right now that psionics for 5e isn't about to be ****ed up irrevocably...
Truth. Better they not make it than **** it up.
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The outcome would be the same for me. If they screw up psionics, I use homebrew at my table. If they don't make it, I use homebrew at my table.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms