So, I was just reading up on Kenku since I wanted to make one, and one question came to my mind:
So, Kenku can not speak themself, they can just recreate sounds they heard, like a parrot, correct?
But Kenku are smart enough to understand the meaning of the things they repeat, after all they used to be able to speak, and they can pick and choose what to repeat. For example if they hear a sentence in a language they can understand, they can either repeat the whole sentence or just a part of it.
There seems to be no limit for how long a Kenku can remember these sounds or how much they can remember.
So, here is my question:
Wouldnt a Kenku who spends a few years in a city or just grows up with "normal" people eventualy be able to basically speak normaly? Since they can pick and choose what to repeat, a Kenku should be able to just repeat words and string them together, which is basically how we speak anyway.
The only difference would be that he might have a different voice, emotional range and way of speaking for each word and is unable to put his own emotions into what he says, but other than that, a Kenku should be able to just learn to speak using his mimic ability, or am I mistaken here?
Yes, I know that. They can only mimic things they heard.
My question is: Doesnt that mean they can literally listen to enough people speak common, and then mimic single words they heard before together to basically speak normal common without really speaking.
It's possible to argue that doing that would require creativity - which the Kenku don't have. Personally I think that's too restrictive. If what you've suggested is what you want to do with your Kenku - go for it.
I know Kenku's get a bad rep for their mimicry trait because it can get really annoying at a table if it's done poorly.
I'm now imagining a calm Kenku readying their bow, mimicking someone freaking out in terror screaming dragon because they have never heard the word calmly spoken.
If you look in the Kenku page in this website, it states "Your character can speak, read, and write Common and one other language that you and your DM agree is appropriate for the character." which basically says that Kenku can speak normally. However, you can choose to limit your character to only speak in mimicry if you feel like it could make things more fun for you and the people you are playing with.
It's worth clarifying that the bulk of this thread was written before Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse was released and replaced Volo's Guide to Monsters. In MotM, indeed the mimicry trait has been relaxed so Kenku can speak normally. In VGtM (which is now legacy) however, which is the context of posts #1-6, Kenku could only mimic what they had heard previously.
I could see why the original trait would have been seen as interesting, unique and potentially fun. I can also see why in practice it would often get really annoying.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I mean, calling it "problematic" is a bit of a pigeonhole itself, imo. Conceptually, a cursed race is an interesting angle to play with; there's nothing inherently wrong in a fantasy setting with a curse affecting abstracts like "creativity", and potentially on a demographic level; and narratively the "collective responsibility" trope is not problematic either. This kind of "collective responsibility/punishment" is obviously not a morally good thing, but that would be why the "Neutral" and "Evil" alignments exist; there is nothing inherently wrong with using it to design a setting (and yes, WotC should still be allowed to design the races around real, discrete settings, not just a collection of cosmetic and gameplay traits). It's only messy because it ends up intruding on player agency, particularly in that most players aren't going to be ready or interested in trying to come up with a whole new way of describing how their character communicates. In pretty much any other media, this would have had the potential to run well, it's just that enforcing alternate communication in role-play is far more likely to feel tedious than interesting.
I mean, calling it "problematic" is a bit of a pigeonhole itself, imo. Conceptually, a cursed race is an interesting angle to play with; there's nothing inherently wrong in a fantasy setting with a curse affecting abstracts like "creativity", and potentially on a demographic level; and narratively the "collective responsibility" trope is not problematic either. This kind of "collective responsibility/punishment" is obviously not a morally good thing, but that would be why the "Neutral" and "Evil" alignments exist; there is nothing inherently wrong with using it to design a setting (and yes, WotC should still be allowed to design the races around real, discrete settings, not just a collection of cosmetic and gameplay traits). It's only messy because it ends up intruding on player agency, particularly in that most players aren't going to be ready or interested in trying to come up with a whole new way of describing how their character communicates. In pretty much any other media, this would have had the potential to run well, it's just that enforcing alternate communication in role-play is far more likely to feel tedious than interesting.
So, how do you play a PC with no creativity? None. Literally none, because irremovable, irredeemable curse. Why and how does your character join the party? Have they seen Kenku do so before? Even if they see non-Kenku joining the party, they are limited to saying what they hear others joining the party saying. That likely requires some PCism to get them into the party at all. How do they copy any attack moves when they cannot see through any eyes other than their own? They would be limited to verbal only spells, learned by rote. Any innate abilities they would not be able to use until they accidentally triggered them and then would only be able to repeat them under identical circumstances.
Anything else requires creativity, coming up with ideas that they haven't had before. No matter how simple or logical that is for most species, they would literally not be able to, because of the curse.
How would they even survive?
To highlight why Kenku can still function, here's this line from Volo's
Although kenku can’t create new things, they have a talent for learning and memorizing details.
A Kenku isn't going to invent a new sword style, but they can study an existing one and utilize it, and logically can learn from experience as well. Same for spells. I will grant that most players are still unlikely to be willing/able to commit to a "true" roleplay of the concept of their inability to improvise or take the initiative as described, but the idea that they've been cursed with a lack of creativity is only as crippling as you make it out if you choose to interpret the concept it a particularly broad and restrictive way. Per the description it's not that they literally cannot process a concept that hasn't been spelled out to them, it's that they can't synthesize abstracts.
I mean, calling it "problematic" is a bit of a pigeonhole itself, imo. Conceptually, a cursed race is an interesting angle to play with; there's nothing inherently wrong in a fantasy setting with a curse affecting abstracts like "creativity", and potentially on a demographic level; and narratively the "collective responsibility" trope is not problematic either. This kind of "collective responsibility/punishment" is obviously not a morally good thing, but that would be why the "Neutral" and "Evil" alignments exist; there is nothing inherently wrong with using it to design a setting (and yes, WotC should still be allowed to design the races around real, discrete settings, not just a collection of cosmetic and gameplay traits). It's only messy because it ends up intruding on player agency, particularly in that most players aren't going to be ready or interested in trying to come up with a whole new way of describing how their character communicates. In pretty much any other media, this would have had the potential to run well, it's just that enforcing alternate communication in role-play is far more likely to feel tedious than interesting.
So, how do you play a PC with no creativity? None. Literally none, because irremovable, irredeemable curse. Why and how does your character join the party? Have they seen Kenku do so before? Even if they see non-Kenku joining the party, they are limited to saying what they hear others joining the party saying. That likely requires some PCism to get them into the party at all. How do they copy any attack moves when they cannot see through any eyes other than their own? They would be limited to verbal only spells, learned by rote. Any innate abilities they would not be able to use until they accidentally triggered them and then would only be able to repeat them under identical circumstances.
Anything else requires creativity, coming up with ideas that they haven't had before. No matter how simple or logical that is for most species, they would literally not be able to, because of the curse.
How would they even survive?
To highlight why Kenku can still function, here's this line from Volo's
Although kenku can’t create new things, they have a talent for learning and memorizing details.
A Kenku isn't going to invent a new sword style, but they can study an existing one and utilize it, and logically can learn from experience as well. Same for spells. I will grant that most players are still unlikely to be willing/able to commit to a "true" roleplay of the concept of their inability to improvise or take the initiative as described, but the idea that they've been cursed with a lack of creativity is only as crippling as you make it out if you choose to interpret the concept it a particularly broad and restrictive way. Per the description it's not that they literally cannot process a concept that hasn't been spelled out to them, it's that they can't synthesize abstracts.
But unless they learn from another Kenku, are they not creatively adapting another race's style to their own bodies? Sure, you can limit the lack of creativity to speech, but could they then not mime? Learn sign language? Heck, carve words in the sand with a weapon, since they can learn how?
No one is arguing that the speech part isn't a messy headache that's not a good idea for a TTRPG. As for the exact mechanics of the curse, on the Watsonian side the answer is "because magic" and the Doylist one is "because that's how the setting works".
The problem is that the way it was worded, it made Kenku sound like they were completely incapable of deductive reasoning: if they hadn't seen something done exactly, they couldn't figure it out- can't pick a lock with five pins if you've only seen lockpicking done on locks with four, can't upcast Fireball if you've only ever seen Magic Missile be upcast, can't use Disarming Strike on a dragonborn because you've only seen it used on a human...
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The problem is that the way it was worded, it made Kenku sound like they were completely incapable of deductive reasoning: if they hadn't seen something done exactly, they couldn't figure it out- can't pick a lock with five pins if you've only seen lockpicking done on locks with four, can't upcast Fireball if you've only ever seen Magic Missile be upcast, can't use Disarming Strike on a dragonborn because you've only seen it used on a human...
That seems like an overly literal take; the point of the curse is they've lost "the spark of creativity"; the description in Volo's makes it clear they're still in possession of basic deductive reasoning, for instance "Flock leaders enforce discipline and minimize conflicts, but they fail at effective planning or crafting long-term schemes." The description clearly indicates they can understand and attempt to manage a group dynamic, albeit with a handicap. They seem to be quite capable of understanding a simple problem that's right in front of them; my read of the description is that once they understand key-based pin and tumbler picking they can apply that to any key-based pin and tumbler lock, not just identical models, but they'd be stymied if you presented them with a dial combination lock instead because they can't make the abstract leap in how the dial interacts with the tumblers.
Honestly, it wouldn't have hurt for the curse to be limited more to the artistic side of "creativity", but beyond the near-universally acknowledged language issue, the rest of it seems fairly functional, although something like a Mastermind Kenku would seem to be running rather strongly against the lore.
If you want to play a kenku that's basically loopholed it's way out of the curse, that's fine. The reasoning behind it is logical. The racial feature exists as a roleplay opportunity, and you can use it as much or as little as you like.
It doesn't have to make perfect sense. You can be a 300-year-old elf but that doesn't mean you get a single mechanical benefit for those centuries of study and experience.
Just play kenkus however you like. I'll just say though that one of my characters that was most beloved of my group was a kenku that only spoke dialogue that someone else had said during the campaign. I organized quotes in a spreadsheet and got pretty quick at looking up what I wanted to say. Being restricted to those phrases forced me to be creative in my communication, often with humorous results. It was a lot of fun.
An entire playable species being biologically or metaphysically incapable of effective planning and long-term schemes sounds like a horrible idea. And yes, "hurrhurr my players have never made an effective plan anyway" - but they're not incapable.
An entire playable species being biologically or metaphysically incapable of effective planning and long-term schemes sounds like a horrible idea. And yes, "hurrhurr my players have never made an effective plan anyway" - but they're not incapable.
Honestly I'm of two minds here; on the one hand this was definitely not the best thought out concept of a species-wide curse for a player race, but sometimes I feel like part of the reason you have discrete races with lore as opposed to just grab-bags of traits is so you can use the lore to give roleplay prompts for players to either work with or play against. In theory, the "lack of the creative spark" is an interesting concept to play around in, it's just the overlap with planning (which is at least appropriate to the lore, since according to it the kenku of old had conspired against their patron) that seems to make it a major impediment to play.
An entire playable species being biologically or metaphysically incapable of effective planning and long-term schemes sounds like a horrible idea. And yes, "hurrhurr my players have never made an effective plan anyway" - but they're not incapable.
Honestly I'm of two minds here; on the one hand this was definitely not the best thought out concept of a species-wide curse for a player race, but sometimes I feel like part of the reason you have discrete races with lore as opposed to just grab-bags of traits is so you can use the lore to give roleplay prompts for players to either work with or play against. In theory, the "lack of the creative spark" is an interesting concept to play around in, it's just the overlap with planning (which is at least appropriate to the lore, since according to it the kenku of old had conspired against their patron) that seems to make it a major impediment to play.
I'm fine with roleplay prompts to work with or against, but blanket biological destiny is the wrong way to go about that. The fact that you yourself are suggesting that players work against what should be an immutable curse proves how wrong that original wording/idea is in play.
The way to do roleplay prompts is to tie them to setting-specific culture, not multiversal species biology or metaphysics. If I read that, say, Mountain Dwarves from Thorbardin in Dragonlance are extremely insular and hugely distrustful of outsiders and magic, then that tells me there are probably very few wandering bards or other casters down there. I can lean into that by making a martial dwarf who doesn't like magic, or I can play against type by making a mountain dwarf bard, who maybe learned from one of the very few outsiders allowed in Thorbardin, or from one of his surface dwarf cousins.
But if instead the lore said "mountain dwarves are incapable of becoming spellcasters" - well that's just boring.
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So, I was just reading up on Kenku since I wanted to make one, and one question came to my mind:
So, Kenku can not speak themself, they can just recreate sounds they heard, like a parrot, correct?
But Kenku are smart enough to understand the meaning of the things they repeat, after all they used to be able to speak, and they can pick and choose what to repeat. For example if they hear a sentence in a language they can understand, they can either repeat the whole sentence or just a part of it.
There seems to be no limit for how long a Kenku can remember these sounds or how much they can remember.
So, here is my question:
Wouldnt a Kenku who spends a few years in a city or just grows up with "normal" people eventualy be able to basically speak normaly? Since they can pick and choose what to repeat, a Kenku should be able to just repeat words and string them together, which is basically how we speak anyway.
The only difference would be that he might have a different voice, emotional range and way of speaking for each word and is unable to put his own emotions into what he says, but other than that, a Kenku should be able to just learn to speak using his mimic ability, or am I mistaken here?
Yes, I know that. They can only mimic things they heard.
My question is: Doesnt that mean they can literally listen to enough people speak common, and then mimic single words they heard before together to basically speak normal common without really speaking.
It's possible to argue that doing that would require creativity - which the Kenku don't have. Personally I think that's too restrictive. If what you've suggested is what you want to do with your Kenku - go for it.
I know Kenku's get a bad rep for their mimicry trait because it can get really annoying at a table if it's done poorly.
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I'm now imagining a calm Kenku readying their bow, mimicking someone freaking out in terror screaming dragon because they have never heard the word calmly spoken.
If you look in the Kenku page in this website, it states "Your character can speak, read, and write Common and one other language that you and your DM agree is appropriate for the character." which basically says that Kenku can speak normally. However, you can choose to limit your character to only speak in mimicry if you feel like it could make things more fun for you and the people you are playing with.
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It's worth clarifying that the bulk of this thread was written before Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse was released and replaced Volo's Guide to Monsters. In MotM, indeed the mimicry trait has been relaxed so Kenku can speak normally. In VGtM (which is now legacy) however, which is the context of posts #1-6, Kenku could only mimic what they had heard previously.
I could see why the original trait would have been seen as interesting, unique and potentially fun. I can also see why in practice it would often get really annoying.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I mean, calling it "problematic" is a bit of a pigeonhole itself, imo. Conceptually, a cursed race is an interesting angle to play with; there's nothing inherently wrong in a fantasy setting with a curse affecting abstracts like "creativity", and potentially on a demographic level; and narratively the "collective responsibility" trope is not problematic either. This kind of "collective responsibility/punishment" is obviously not a morally good thing, but that would be why the "Neutral" and "Evil" alignments exist; there is nothing inherently wrong with using it to design a setting (and yes, WotC should still be allowed to design the races around real, discrete settings, not just a collection of cosmetic and gameplay traits). It's only messy because it ends up intruding on player agency, particularly in that most players aren't going to be ready or interested in trying to come up with a whole new way of describing how their character communicates. In pretty much any other media, this would have had the potential to run well, it's just that enforcing alternate communication in role-play is far more likely to feel tedious than interesting.
I'd have no problem with an NPC race that lacks free will or agency. You can explain that any number of ways.
Since they want Kenku to be playable though (and therefore free-willed by definition) the change was needed.
To highlight why Kenku can still function, here's this line from Volo's
A Kenku isn't going to invent a new sword style, but they can study an existing one and utilize it, and logically can learn from experience as well. Same for spells. I will grant that most players are still unlikely to be willing/able to commit to a "true" roleplay of the concept of their inability to improvise or take the initiative as described, but the idea that they've been cursed with a lack of creativity is only as crippling as you make it out if you choose to interpret the concept it a particularly broad and restrictive way. Per the description it's not that they literally cannot process a concept that hasn't been spelled out to them, it's that they can't synthesize abstracts.
No one is arguing that the speech part isn't a messy headache that's not a good idea for a TTRPG. As for the exact mechanics of the curse, on the Watsonian side the answer is "because magic" and the Doylist one is "because that's how the setting works".
The problem is that the way it was worded, it made Kenku sound like they were completely incapable of deductive reasoning: if they hadn't seen something done exactly, they couldn't figure it out- can't pick a lock with five pins if you've only seen lockpicking done on locks with four, can't upcast Fireball if you've only ever seen Magic Missile be upcast, can't use Disarming Strike on a dragonborn because you've only seen it used on a human...
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That seems like an overly literal take; the point of the curse is they've lost "the spark of creativity"; the description in Volo's makes it clear they're still in possession of basic deductive reasoning, for instance "Flock leaders enforce discipline and minimize conflicts, but they fail at effective planning or crafting long-term schemes." The description clearly indicates they can understand and attempt to manage a group dynamic, albeit with a handicap. They seem to be quite capable of understanding a simple problem that's right in front of them; my read of the description is that once they understand key-based pin and tumbler picking they can apply that to any key-based pin and tumbler lock, not just identical models, but they'd be stymied if you presented them with a dial combination lock instead because they can't make the abstract leap in how the dial interacts with the tumblers.
Honestly, it wouldn't have hurt for the curse to be limited more to the artistic side of "creativity", but beyond the near-universally acknowledged language issue, the rest of it seems fairly functional, although something like a Mastermind Kenku would seem to be running rather strongly against the lore.
If you want to play a kenku that's basically loopholed it's way out of the curse, that's fine. The reasoning behind it is logical. The racial feature exists as a roleplay opportunity, and you can use it as much or as little as you like.
It doesn't have to make perfect sense. You can be a 300-year-old elf but that doesn't mean you get a single mechanical benefit for those centuries of study and experience.
Just play kenkus however you like. I'll just say though that one of my characters that was most beloved of my group was a kenku that only spoke dialogue that someone else had said during the campaign. I organized quotes in a spreadsheet and got pretty quick at looking up what I wanted to say. Being restricted to those phrases forced me to be creative in my communication, often with humorous results. It was a lot of fun.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
An entire playable species being biologically or metaphysically incapable of effective planning and long-term schemes sounds like a horrible idea. And yes, "hurrhurr my players have never made an effective plan anyway" - but they're not incapable.
Honestly I'm of two minds here; on the one hand this was definitely not the best thought out concept of a species-wide curse for a player race, but sometimes I feel like part of the reason you have discrete races with lore as opposed to just grab-bags of traits is so you can use the lore to give roleplay prompts for players to either work with or play against. In theory, the "lack of the creative spark" is an interesting concept to play around in, it's just the overlap with planning (which is at least appropriate to the lore, since according to it the kenku of old had conspired against their patron) that seems to make it a major impediment to play.
I'm fine with roleplay prompts to work with or against, but blanket biological destiny is the wrong way to go about that. The fact that you yourself are suggesting that players work against what should be an immutable curse proves how wrong that original wording/idea is in play.
The way to do roleplay prompts is to tie them to setting-specific culture, not multiversal species biology or metaphysics. If I read that, say, Mountain Dwarves from Thorbardin in Dragonlance are extremely insular and hugely distrustful of outsiders and magic, then that tells me there are probably very few wandering bards or other casters down there. I can lean into that by making a martial dwarf who doesn't like magic, or I can play against type by making a mountain dwarf bard, who maybe learned from one of the very few outsiders allowed in Thorbardin, or from one of his surface dwarf cousins.
But if instead the lore said "mountain dwarves are incapable of becoming spellcasters" - well that's just boring.