I'll just say it, Wish should be taken out of the players' hands and put into an item or just the DMs hands. 

Whoa, what did I just say? Take away Wish? Am I some sort of noob who can't handle it? Some angry player punisher?

Naw, just hear me out. 

After running games longer than DnD has been owned by 1 company I have seen just about everything. I love the experience of watching players get new spells and watching how they use them creatively. Not always is it strictly correct, but the thought behind its use is fantastic. This leads me nicely into the Wish spell. 

Time, after time, after time, after time, I have seen wonderfully creative players just go derp mode once Wish is attained. It's such a loose spell and it is able to cast any spell lower than it is just lazy. 1 spell should not replace 8 levels of spells.

What's that? Just ban the spell. Why would I want to limit my players? That is exactly what I don't want. I want creativity, but spells like Wish just make people turn their brains off. Like Fireball, it's more a meme than a good spell. Why prepare anything ahead of time when Wish can cover it?

The spell itself seems half-hearted and like someone wanted to get something done with as little thought as possible. I mean why would a spell that can do any spell not be the first thing everyone learns? It just kills so many things and feels so ham-fisted.

In my humble opinion, this should just be in an item like a lamp with a certain amount of charges then poof it's gone, or just NPC magic. 

Let the comments roll in about how I'm wrong and stupid and I should just ban it. If you are commenting something worthwhile to engage in this conversation, I thank you ahead of time.

What about the secondary part, the changing reality part? Not just the duplicating other spells part. I'd argue that's a pretty fun hook to have characters play around (especially with the knowledge that it could backfire).

If your argument is to separate the spell duplication part of Wish into just magic item/DM fiat then I might be inclined to agree. Otherwise, I'll start lighting some torches and grabbing me a pitchfork. 

That is my issue, the duplication. 1 spell shouldn't supersede 8 levels of spells, you know?

Updated for clarification. 

Quote from BigBopper >>

I'll just say it, Wish should be taken out of the players' hands and put into an item or just the DMs hands. 

Whoa, what did I just say? Take away Wish? Am I some sort of noob who can't handle it? Some angry player punisher?

Naw, just hear me out. 

 

After running games longer than DnD has been owned by 1 company I have seen just about everything. I love the experience of watching players get new spells and watching how they use them creatively. Not always is it strictly correct, but the thought behind its use is fantastic. This leads me nicely into the Wish spell. 

Time, after time, after time, after time, I have seen wonderfully creative players just go derp mode once Wish is attained. It's such a loose spell and it is able to cast any spell lower than it is just lazy. 1 spell should not replace 8 levels of spells.

What's that? Just ban the spell. Why would I want to limit my players? That is exactly what I don't want. I want creativity, but spells like Wish just make people turn their brains off. Like Fireball, it's more a meme than a good spell. Why prepare anything ahead of time when Wish can cover it?

The spell itself seems half-hearted and like someone wanted to get something done with as little thought as possible. I mean why would a spell that can do any spell not be the first thing everyone learns? It just kills so many things and feels so ham-fisted.

In my humble opinion, this should just be in an item like a lamp with a certain amount of charges then poof it's gone, or just NPC magic. 

 

Let the comments roll in about how I'm wrong and stupid and I should just ban it. If you are commenting something worthwhile to engage in this conversation, I thank you ahead of time.

 

 

 I have to agree in general that high level magic should be relegated to magic items. The high levels have some cool abiltiies but they're just unplayable with a ton of broken abiltiies. Honestly I think in general the game should cap off with 6th or 7th level spells (you'd still get them at the expected levels currently) and no higher level slots as well. It stops the exponential power gain of casters in high levels, thus balancing the game a lot more. It's also much less painful for the DM if high level magic like that was removed.

Do what you wish at your tables. It's not necessary to make everyone else change to your suggestions. If as a player, discuss with the DM as always.

I personally ban Wish in my campaigns, letting my players know there will be entities or items in the world that might confer Wishes.  I have only received positive feedback on this decision - players who felt (incorrectly) that Wish was a “must take” spell, so banning it opened up more creativity in their decision making; players who liked that the limited availability forced them to be more careful about how they used their one and only bite at the Wish apple.

It also helps avoid some of the horror stories I have heard surrounding Wish.  Wish is one of those few places in the game where skill at the player level, the ability of the player, rather than their character, to phrase a Wish, is pitted against the DM’s skill in interpretation of the Wish.  There is a combination of personal skill, competition, expectation, and result that can produce some fairly nasty results if not everyone is on the same page.  With potential world-changing effects, Wish is almost deserving of an entire mid-game session zero discussion, in a way no other spell or effect might require.  

Sorry, is your point just that Wish should not be able to duplicate lower-level spells?  I love your argument, that Wish obviates player creativity, and I tend to agree -- that happens anytime you give someone too many crayons, so to speak -- but it's just not super clear from your post what you want.

If Wish can grant wishes, but very specifically not any wish that duplicates any lower-level spell, why does it have that incredibly precise limitation?  What's the justification?

I agree that a ban isn't the answer, necessarily, but arbitrarily deciding that there is a long-ass and very detailed list of wishes Wish can't grant seems like a weird choice that is difficult to sell to players.

The most interesting thing about Wish in previous editions has been that the wish itself is always defined very literally and narrowly.  I know that's not in the description anymore, but you used to be able to really ruin an uncareful party's day because of a poorly worded Wish.  I see no reason why that stipulation would not apply as well if the spell were being used to duplicate a different spell (although the D&D5 description does, unfortunately, suggest otherwise).

Also, proper waffles are fundamentally different from pancakes in both ingredients and preparation...

...which may itself be a cleverly hidden answer to your problem of spell duplication.  

For me the replication is the best and most creative part of the spell. 

I can finally do more than what I am limited to by my mediocre number of spells as a sorc or only what I could prep ahead as a wizard. There's many interesting spells I can now do like summon a flying mount (why the feck is that spell paladin only?!) for my conjuration wizard. Or plant growth for my hermit. Or to just make some neat features with glyphs of warding that doesn't consume every last drop of gold I have - assuming I still have any after spending it all on components and scribing (Jeebus fluffing christ is it expensive to be an interesting wizard - anything that isn't basic combat often requires more gold than a town even has). 

Having the option to once a day do something different or without fussing over spending a mini-fortune in gold, it just opens so many options, so many ideas and every high-level game has become more fun by acquiring it. So any high-level game where Wish is banned is one I will not play in. Don't need that kinda limiting negativity in my life. 

The idea of banning the most creative spell in D&D in order to "increase" creativity is the most backwards thing I've read in a good long while.

Tell the players that if they cast wish, it won't take place until the next game session and that they will have negative consequences from said wish no matter what they do, its a function of the spell.  And if you can't think of anything logical from the syntax, you'll give them something to go with it.  If they complain, tell them there is no risk vs reward with the spell and its going to have to have a downside for that amount of power.  The more outlandish the wish, the more outlandish the negative consequence. 

If they wish for a bridge to cross the ravine then the negative would be pterodactyls are attracted to the bridge, nothing major.

If they wish to rule the kingdom, no problem.  The wisher is now in the body of the 85 year old king who is a commoner with 4 hit points.  His sons want him dead and he has to spend game sessions trying to avoid being poisoned and dealing with kingdom running duties.

If they wish for Blackrazor, no problem its theirs. It was in Orcus vault and they stole it from Orcus.  Orcus is now going after them.

If they get cute and put the "no one owns" moniquer, no problem the Great Demon Lord Gno Juane' was the owner and is now coming after them.

My players understand that when they wish for great power, they end up getting great negatives to balance it out.  Its better to wish for a pegasus than a fully armed sky zeppelin.

You can ignore it and always give the players whatever they wish assuming they make their rolls, however the campaign is officially over at that point.  Once you go Monty Haul there is no coming back from it.

Uh Portential the controversy of the "ban wish" suggestion isn't due to the "anything" aspect of Wish. The whole "negative consequences" and "monkeypaw" bits are well and truly common ways DMs rule on Wish.

It's the basic use of Wish they wanna ban. The spell replication. The easiest thing for the DM to deal with. The only thing most people even use Wish for (because of the negative consequence of Wish are incredibly severe and that's before you even get to the "monkeypaw" thing).

Wish can be used 3 ways:

1 - basic use, spell replication of any 8th level or lower but cast as an action using on V component.

2 - Specific option. You choose one of the specific options listed in spell text - it happens as intended.

3 - Anything else. This is where you have to carefully word the wish you want that will be anything other than #1 or #2. This one is the one that DMs can play twist-a-wish and monkeypaw the hell outta it - as you're suggesting.

If you use #2 or #3 you also suffer further negative consequences: your strength becomes 3 for 2d4 days, you cannot cast anything greater than a cantrip the rest of the day or you take a buttload of damage and... oh yeah, 1 in 3 chance of never being able to cast wish by any other means, in any way shape or form, ever again. Not even through a magic item. Which, as a Sorc or Bard at 20th level is gonna immensely suck because you've lost what is most likely your only 9th level spell and you can't choose another. 

So, #2 and #3 when Wish is played properly will rarely happen because why would any sane people play those shit odds and lose it forever? And the peeps here wanna ban either #1 or the spell entirely. Not because #3, the option that is most powerful and can be an instant I-Win button, but actually because of #1, the most creative, least DM-headachey, and most used option of Wish....

Quote from Cyb3rM1nd >>

So, #2 and #3 when Wish is played properly will rarely happen because why would any sane people play those shit odds and lose it forever? And the peeps here wanna ban either #1 or the spell entirely. Not because #3, the option that is most powerful and can be an instant I-Win button, but actually because of #1, the most creative, least DM-headachey, and most used option of Wish....

 
There is an easy answer to your question - they would play the odds because it is fun.  Many folks recognise that limitations breed creativity - you do not have to spend long on this forum to see countless complaints about how Wizards are kind of boring because they have so many spell options they can solve basically every problem.  The OP’s point is essentially the same argument - the first use removes the limitations of what spells folks can cast and what spells they presently have available, giving them a daily “solve the party’s problem, no matter what it might be” button.

The main reason this is a problem is something OP fails to mention - it is less of a problem with “1 spell . . .  replac[ing] 8 levels of spells” and more “1 spell replacing dozens of levels of everyone else on the party by giving the spellcaster the ability to quickly solve a problem other party members might have specialised their classes to solve.”  Much like the entire Wizard class, the first option of Wish can inadvertently infect a player with Main Character Syndrome, making the game less fun for everyone else. 

As for why anyone would play the odds?  Probably because they want to have fun in their game?  There are generally better level 9 spells if you want to optimise something. So other than the kind of person who likes that Wish removes limitations and would rather be a Jack of all you party members’ trades over specialising in something unique, folks are going to take Wish for its unique effects that no other spell could replicate.  Plus, plenty of players find the risk element fun, or they find it fun to test how clever their DM is, or they’re just generally fond of the classic narrative of a wish gone wrong.  All told, plenty of reasons folks might choose the other options - all of which seem so obvious as to make your question a bit silly.

Quote from Cyb3rM1nd >>

Uh Portential the controversy of the "ban wish" suggestion isn't due to the "anything" aspect of Wish. The whole "negative consequences" and "monkeypaw" bits are well and truly common ways DMs rule on Wish.

It's the basic use of Wish they wanna ban. The spell replication. The easiest thing for the DM to deal with. The only thing most people even use Wish for (because of the negative consequence of Wish are incredibly severe and that's before you even get to the "monkeypaw" thing).

Wish can be used 3 ways:

1 - basic use, spell replication of any 8th level or lower but cast as an action using on V component.

2 - Specific option. You choose one of the specific options listed in spell text - it happens as intended.

3 - Anything else. This is where you have to carefully word the wish you want that will be anything other than #1 or #2. This one is the one that DMs can play twist-a-wish and monkeypaw the hell outta it - as you're suggesting.

If you use #2 or #3 you also suffer further negative consequences: your strength becomes 3 for 2d4 days, you cannot cast anything greater than a cantrip the rest of the day or you take a buttload of damage and... oh yeah, 1 in 3 chance of never being able to cast wish by any other means, in any way shape or form, ever again. Not even through a magic item. Which, as a Sorc or Bard at 20th level is gonna immensely suck because you've lost what is most likely your only 9th level spell and you can't choose another. 

So, #2 and #3 when Wish is played properly will rarely happen because why would any sane people play those shit odds and lose it forever? And the peeps here wanna ban either #1 or the spell entirely. Not because #3, the option that is most powerful and can be an instant I-Win button, but actually because of #1, the most creative, least DM-headachey, and most used option of Wish....

With great power come great consequences.  Look at artifacts and the negative effects that come with them, the same type of scenario to apply to Wish when players decide to turn it into a "I beat D&D" type of spell.  If they want to use it to defeat the BBEG, good luck the unintended consequences will give them a worse case scenario.  On the other hand use Wish to sway an enemy into an ally for information the worse they might get a guy whose really clingy and won't leave them alone.  Wish can and will kill a campaign if there aren't limits placed on its use and the players know before hand.  Typically Wish should be something a Wizard is scared to cast and will only do so as a last resort not as a common every day spell use save as a lower spell replacement.

As the DM you would set the consequences of what ever they wished for.  If you feel it is too over powered, then create consequences that fit the reaction to the Wish spell.

You can always reply to your players, What is that line, "...you can certainly try.."

I like WIsh. It's cool. And yes, it is powerful. But it is also a 9th level spell, so it isn't exactly made to be super balanced. Not only that, but as Cyb3rM1nd explained, it has plenty of limitations. Anyways, ban it in your groups if you want. But it isn't nearly as powerful as some people make it out to be, so I won't ban it at my tables.

As a side note, we actually had a conversation about this a while back HERE. Most people seemed to believe that Wish was balanced overall.

Quote from BoringBard >>

I like WIsh. It's cool. And yes, it is powerful. But it is also a 9th level spell, so it isn't exactly made to be super balanced. Not only that, but as Cyb3rM1nd explained, it has plenty of limitations. Anyways, ban it in your groups if you want. But it isn't nearly as powerful as some people make it out to be, so I won't ban it at my tables.

As a side note, we actually had a conversation about this a while back HERE. Most people seemed to believe that Wish was balanced overall.

It is probably worth noting that any implication folks on this thread think it is too powerful is not actually a response to anything folks are saying on this thread.  The issue presented on this thread is not about power, it is about whether the spell is interesting.  Personally, I find a spell that reads "you could do something fun with it, but that is risky so you will probably just play it safe and use it to just solve some puzzles with minimal effort once per day" to be rather poor game design (though that is not a comment on power--it is, after all, just a shortcut to something the party could otherwise spend time doing), and that, by limiting Wish's use to something rare and special, I turn a dull skeleton key of a spell into something that feels like it is a magical effect worthy of the literary mystique surrounding wishes.  

But that is the great part of D&D - everyone can play however they want.  I probably should have said this in my first post, but, while I will always be banning Wish as a spell option (though not a full ban, since there will be items or genies or whatnot), I would not want it banned overall.  It is much better game design for a DM to say "I know this is an option, I do not want you using it though" than to put the onus on the DM to homerule something which no longer exists into the game itself. 

Quote from BigBopper >>

The spell itself seems half-hearted and like someone wanted to get something done with as little thought as possible. I mean why would a spell that can do any spell not be the first thing everyone learns?

 I'm not sure I understand this.  I feel like this is a trick question.  Because the answer is that it is a level seventeen spell, you literally can't pick it first.  To my knowledge there's only one official adventure that even takes you up that far, when Crawford, Mearls and Perkins were asked about it, the consensus was that few games last long enough to get much beyond level 15 or 16 for real life reasons.  However you make me feels like this is an issue that happens a lot which shouldn't be since only level twenty wizards can learn the spell which can only be used once or twice per day.  Even less so with the variety of classes and the popularity of multi-classing.  Regardless though, I've rarely had any of the games I DM make t up that high, but if your players have been with you that long, at what point are they allowed to feel overpowered?  I'd say just let the player who invested all that time into wizard to use a spell cast a copy of any spell once or twice a day.

If for some reason you are playing in a game where the characters can get high enough access to this ability there is no reason why on earth to ban it, I mean of course you do what you want at your table but there's really less point.

The way Sorcerers are written if they take this spell and they use it outside of spell duplication they have the chance of forever losing there 9th level spell, kind of sucks doesn't it. Also, while the argument can be "well banning it takes away that problem" using the spell duplication part of wish is actually good for players that play completely RAW and match/watch all spell components. 

Quote from BigBopper >>

I'll just say it, Wish should be taken out of the players' hands and put into an item or just the DMs hands. 

Whoa, what did I just say? Take away Wish? Am I some sort of noob who can't handle it? Some angry player punisher?

Naw, just hear me out. 

 

After running games longer than DnD has been owned by 1 company I have seen just about everything. I love the experience of watching players get new spells and watching how they use them creatively. Not always is it strictly correct, but the thought behind its use is fantastic. This leads me nicely into the Wish spell. 

Time, after time, after time, after time, I have seen wonderfully creative players just go derp mode once Wish is attained. It's such a loose spell and it is able to cast any spell lower than it is just lazy. 1 spell should not replace 8 levels of spells.

What's that? Just ban the spell. Why would I want to limit my players? That is exactly what I don't want. I want creativity, but spells like Wish just make people turn their brains off. Like Fireball, it's more a meme than a good spell. Why prepare anything ahead of time when Wish can cover it?

The spell itself seems half-hearted and like someone wanted to get something done with as little thought as possible. I mean why would a spell that can do any spell not be the first thing everyone learns? It just kills so many things and feels so ham-fisted.

In my humble opinion, this should just be in an item like a lamp with a certain amount of charges then poof it's gone, or just NPC magic. 

 

Let the comments roll in about how I'm wrong and stupid and I should just ban it. If you are commenting something worthwhile to engage in this conversation, I thank you ahead of time.

 

 

 I disagree. People I play with get really creative and complicated when they get a Wish spell cause they’re afraid of the DM twisting the wording.

As others here have said the second and hired uses of wish have their own consequences and rewards that pretty well balance those uses, the first is the use Nader discussion- should duplicating any L8- spell with only a verbal component be banned? To my mind no - why? Because there are really only 3 times you use it this way:
1) when you have wish prepared and you desperately need a L8- spell but don’t have it available.
2) when you need to upcast a L7- spell to get those extra dice of damage but you don’t have the spell available.
3) when you, as a mage, need to caste a high level clerical or primal spell and don’t have a cleric or Druid capable in the party.

it is, after all, a single casting a day so prepping wish also means saving wish for when you need it desperately, not casting it first to try to blow the enemy out of the water.