Ive been thinking alot about various arguments about extradimensional item interactions and whether they a planer in nature. Ive read some peoples arguments claiming an extradimentinal space is it's own plane. and some that say otherwise. I'm wondering how other DMS handle the problems of each choice?
I rather think it's silly, as placing a bag of holding into another such item is supposed to create an astral warp, but having/opening it on any plane is the same as putting it into another such item if Extradimensions and planes are the same.
Ive always had it be a seperate thing. Extradimension created a localized warping of the current plane. The interaction of 2 such items opened the planar rift.
Extradimensional items can only open on the plane they were created on
Altered most spells like Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick to create an extraplaner space, so extradimensional items could be taken inside them, but not accessable while there.
This is a failure of 5th edition, as this is explained fairly well in past edition. There is no argument if you read past lore.
To explain this, first we need to establish a few details.
There are several kinds of plains of existence, in D&D lore.
The Great Wheel:
The Material Plane, and there are many of them, follows the many universe theory of dimensional space, the version from the 60s btw, not one of the modern understandings. You can map many worlds that are all similar yet different on the material plain. This includes Toril and Abeir which use to be one world called Abeir-Toril, the Earth as Ed Greenwood had described in his many many Forgotten Realms books, and all the other major setting in D&D.
Then we have the Shadowfel and Fey Wild, these two planes where created as copies of the Material planes (all of them as one infinitely long flat plane.) they mirror the worlds of the material planes, while following the rules of these planes.
After this we have the Elemental Planes, Earth, Fire, Air, Water.
Between these inner planes of reality sits the Ethereal plane (This is what Bags of Holding connect to.) the Ethereal Plane has little life, and only the hardiest of living beings can survive here, its filled with ghosts not willing to pass on monsters who hunt the accidental travelers, and gods who refuse to make their own divine realms. When you make a new pocket dimension, they are made from the stuff of the Ethereal plane.)
Past the Ethereal Plane sits elemental chaos, you could say it's really not a plane, but an extension of the Ethereal plane, but it is complete enough to create a divide between the inner ring of reality and the rest of the planes.
past Elemental Chaos sits the Astral plane, which most of the known planes sit in. You have the great ring of the heavens and hells, which are a collection of alignment based planes, the upper planes of good, the lower planes of evil, the planes of Law, the planes of chaos, and everything in between. These are the realms of Gods, Devils, Demons, and others.
Past that you have the outer planes, which little is known about, but above we have the positive plane, and below the negative plane.
Demiplanes are pockets made from the Ethereal and Astral planes with a small piece of one of the other planes as their ground, such as a small mountain country with vampires, or a Wizards castle designed to reach every plane of reality. There are many Demiplanes, and the magic used while extensive is similar to how you would make a Bag of Holding, only upscaled to insane degrees.
Now for the fun, technically demiplanes all start out the same way as a simple bag of holding. But their size and power is why they stabilize, and why traversing into a demiplane will not harm your pocket sized demiplanes.
So when you make a bag of holding, you are containing a tiny bit of the ethereal plane, as long as the bubble that is the bag doesn't burst you can put stuff in and retrieve it easy enough. But when you try and put two of these little bubbles together they pop creating a vacuum into the ethereal if lucky. (If unlucky the astral or positive or negative planes.) be thankful the rules no longer make it an instant kill if you are sucked in. meaning the positive and negative planes are so unlikely now as to not even be considered anymore.
So no you are not warping the local reality when making a bag of holding, you are grabbing the raw planar material that sits between realities, and containing it. Only a being like an Ancient dragon has the power to warp reality in such ways.
You might then ask but if all realities sit in this formless shapeless plane which is called Ethereal near the material and Astral near the divine where did the planes we understand come from. Well... that would be the tales of the Creator gods, and that would take forever to explain. But yes, the magic used to make Bags of holding when cast by a creator god, or goddess can make a new world.
Ive been thinking alot about various arguments about extradimensional item interactions and whether they a planer in nature. Ive read some peoples arguments claiming an extradimentinal space is it's own plane. and some that say otherwise. I'm wondering how other DMS handle the problems of each choice?
I rather think it's silly, as placing a bag of holding into another such item is supposed to create an astral warp, but having/opening it on any plane is the same as putting it into another such item if Extradimensions and planes are the same.
Ive always had it be a seperate thing. Extradimension created a localized warping of the current plane. The interaction of 2 such items opened the planar rift.
Extradimensional items can only open on the plane they were created on
Altered most spells like Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and Rope Trick to create an extraplaner space, so extradimensional items could be taken inside them, but not accessable while there.
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
This is a failure of 5th edition, as this is explained fairly well in past edition. There is no argument if you read past lore.
To explain this, first we need to establish a few details.
There are several kinds of plains of existence, in D&D lore.
The Great Wheel:
The Material Plane, and there are many of them, follows the many universe theory of dimensional space, the version from the 60s btw, not one of the modern understandings. You can map many worlds that are all similar yet different on the material plain. This includes Toril and Abeir which use to be one world called Abeir-Toril, the Earth as Ed Greenwood had described in his many many Forgotten Realms books, and all the other major setting in D&D.
Then we have the Shadowfel and Fey Wild, these two planes where created as copies of the Material planes (all of them as one infinitely long flat plane.) they mirror the worlds of the material planes, while following the rules of these planes.
After this we have the Elemental Planes, Earth, Fire, Air, Water.
Between these inner planes of reality sits the Ethereal plane (This is what Bags of Holding connect to.) the Ethereal Plane has little life, and only the hardiest of living beings can survive here, its filled with ghosts not willing to pass on monsters who hunt the accidental travelers, and gods who refuse to make their own divine realms. When you make a new pocket dimension, they are made from the stuff of the Ethereal plane.)
Past the Ethereal Plane sits elemental chaos, you could say it's really not a plane, but an extension of the Ethereal plane, but it is complete enough to create a divide between the inner ring of reality and the rest of the planes.
past Elemental Chaos sits the Astral plane, which most of the known planes sit in. You have the great ring of the heavens and hells, which are a collection of alignment based planes, the upper planes of good, the lower planes of evil, the planes of Law, the planes of chaos, and everything in between. These are the realms of Gods, Devils, Demons, and others.
Past that you have the outer planes, which little is known about, but above we have the positive plane, and below the negative plane.
Demiplanes are pockets made from the Ethereal and Astral planes with a small piece of one of the other planes as their ground, such as a small mountain country with vampires, or a Wizards castle designed to reach every plane of reality. There are many Demiplanes, and the magic used while extensive is similar to how you would make a Bag of Holding, only upscaled to insane degrees.
Now for the fun, technically demiplanes all start out the same way as a simple bag of holding. But their size and power is why they stabilize, and why traversing into a demiplane will not harm your pocket sized demiplanes.
So when you make a bag of holding, you are containing a tiny bit of the ethereal plane, as long as the bubble that is the bag doesn't burst you can put stuff in and retrieve it easy enough. But when you try and put two of these little bubbles together they pop creating a vacuum into the ethereal if lucky. (If unlucky the astral or positive or negative planes.) be thankful the rules no longer make it an instant kill if you are sucked in. meaning the positive and negative planes are so unlikely now as to not even be considered anymore.
So no you are not warping the local reality when making a bag of holding, you are grabbing the raw planar material that sits between realities, and containing it. Only a being like an Ancient dragon has the power to warp reality in such ways.
You might then ask but if all realities sit in this formless shapeless plane which is called Ethereal near the material and Astral near the divine where did the planes we understand come from. Well... that would be the tales of the Creator gods, and that would take forever to explain. But yes, the magic used to make Bags of holding when cast by a creator god, or goddess can make a new world.