Did they just completely remove sorcerer and warlock in the new rules? Cant seem to find them in feats
Yes, it's limited to Wizard, Druid and Cleric now, you can no longer pickup Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, Paladin or Ranger spells from magic initiate. Same is True for bard's magical secrets too now, it is also limited to Cleric, Wizard and Druid spells.
The new version also lets you cast those spells with spell slots. Also, the Sorcerer spell list is 99% just a subset of the wizard spell list (the only ones unique to them off the top of my head are the new Sorcerous Burst cantrip and Chaos Bolt, but the new Chromatic Orb is now a better version of Chaos Bolt.)
This was changed because the excluded class's spell lists are very closely tied to their identity (e.g. the warlock spell list isn't just random arcane spells, they contain lots of very thematic spells that really lean into the eldritch angle of the warlock.) Magical Secrets was especially problematic because Bards could loot Find Greater Steed from the Paladin list and outshine a Paladin at their own game since Paladins get higher level spells much more slowly than full casters. The topic comes up around the 6:00 mark in this video:
There's still a loophole through the Eldritch Adept feat from Tasha's, since Pact of the Tome is now a 1st level invocation, and that one still doesn't have any class restriction. Since it's not an Origin Feat, you'll have to wait until 4th level though.
Yeah, they needed to nerf Magic Initiate and Magical Secrets' pools a little. Note that in trade Bards now get access to 3 extra lists from the point they gain feature on and can swap them out same as other known spells, not just as one-off picks at certain levels.
The changes to Magic Initiate have huge implications too. Used to be nearly impossible to do any decent healing as a wizard without multiclassing. But now they can trivially pick up Cure Wounds, cast it using Intelligence and their spell slots as if it were a wizard spell, and because healing spells were reclassed as Abjuration spells, an Abjurer can even use that to fuel their Arcane Ward. On the flip side, clerics can now pick up Blade Ward and True Strike and do much better as melee fighters.
There is also the consideration of the implementation of Origin feats and ritual spells with Magic Initiate being an origin feat, it's a lot easier to pick up as well, and since it does have the Wizard spell list, it does also give access to some useful ritual spells, including Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Identity, and a few other potentially good ritual spells which can be used by non-spellcasters to get a bit more utility.
I'm playing a Wizard who's a bit of a jokester, so took the Magic Initiate (Bard) in order to have access to "Vicious Mockery". It seems like the new rules won't allow for this. I haven't looked into swapping to a Bard with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to see how the end results compare.
EK is busted though. Sure, you still need 13 str for heavy armor, but you can just max int and use it for attack. Add that you can replace one attack with a cantrip (green flame blade) and you will deal a ton of damage. All while still having a free hand for a shield.
How would you plan to attack with INT? My guess is shillelagh but Shillelagh is only applicable too Quarterstaff and Club, since you mention a shield that would work but Personally I still think for an EK a Heavy weapon will still always perform better, using GWM.
The issue is, D&DB has not adequately laid the groundwork for you to EASILY mix and match what rules your DM is allowing.
Example: In my current campaign, I play a Gloom Stalker Ranger who was going to use the Fighting Style to pick up Unarmed Fighting (which you couldn't do initially because the character creator wouldn't let you pick a fighting style after you selected that option). She's a human, so at 1st level I had planned to pick up Magic Initiate Druid to grab Primal Savagery (no longer a supported Cantrip option), Starry Wisps, and Cure Wounds. So right off the bat, my Fighting Style and one of my Cantrips were no longer options. This has since been fixed on the Character Creation function, but before it was I had to do everything as custom actions...which is a HUGE pain to get to function correctly on the character sheet.
If everything is SUPPOSED to be compatible...then why are options blocked, even temporarily? I mean they took the site down to "upgrade" so this wouldn't be an issue...but here it is BEING AN ISSUE...
Well that sucks guess ill be using old rules then, new edition has a lot of good things but character creation now feels limiting ngl
That's intentional. For 6 years, from 2014 to 2020, stat increases were tied to your race. If you wanted a fighter, you chose a dwarf or a half-orc. If you wanted a rogue, you chose elf or halfling. If you wanted a bard or sorcerer, you chose halfling or drow elf. You matched your race with the stat increases that gave your character a leg up. Backgrounds, on the other hand, were MEANINGLESS. There was little to gain from a background and your power level didn't require it. I knew guys who completely forgot their background because they never used the feature associated with it. (I'm a sailor? Oh, yeah, I AM a sailor. Don't I get something for that? Free trips? Oh, yeah!) The 2014 PHB reinforced this perspective by allowing players to custom their backgrounds, from day one. Because they didn't matter, game wise. It was just fluff. For 6 years that was the status quo. Some people complained, but most either lived with it. Until 2020 and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. That's when they separated stats from races and allowed a custom race. It was a concession to keep the game interesting for those who liked to optimize their characters from level 1. When they decided to revise the 5e rules in 2024, they wanted to focus more on where you came from and not who your people were. So, they tied the mechanical benefit to the BACKGROUND, rather than the SPECIES. If you allow customized backgrounds right away, the choice of a background will cease to matter again. There is still a lot of customization in the new rules, but they didn't include rules for a custom background for a reason. They want you to try the new system and not devolve into an ala carte character creation. But hey, it's your game at your table. Nobody is stopping you from doing what you want
EK is busted though. Sure, you still need 13 str for heavy armor, but you can just max int and use it for attack. Add that you can replace one attack with a cantrip (green flame blade) and you will deal a ton of damage. All while still having a free hand for a shield.
How would you plan to attack with INT? My guess is shillelagh but Shillelagh is only applicable too Quarterstaff and Club, since you mention a shield that would work but Personally I still think for an EK a Heavy weapon will still always perform better, using GWM.
The new version of True Strike allows you to use your Spellcasting ability modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity with a weapon, as well as having your choice of original damage type or radiant.
Well that sucks guess ill be using old rules then, new edition has a lot of good things but character creation now feels limiting ngl
That's intentional. For 6 years, from 2014 to 2020, stat increases were tied to your race. If you wanted a fighter, you chose a dwarf or a half-orc. If you wanted a rogue, you chose elf or halfling. If you wanted a bard or sorcerer, you chose halfling or drow elf. You matched your race with the stat increases that gave your character a leg up. Backgrounds, on the other hand, were MEANINGLESS. There was little to gain from a background and your power level didn't require it. I knew guys who completely forgot their background because they never used the feature associated with it. (I'm a sailor? Oh, yeah, I AM a sailor. Don't I get something for that? Free trips? Oh, yeah!) The 2014 PHB reinforced this perspective by allowing players to custom their backgrounds, from day one. Because they didn't matter, game wise. It was just fluff. For 6 years that was the status quo. Some people complained, but most either lived with it. Until 2020 and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. That's when they separated stats from races and allowed a custom race. It was a concession to keep the game interesting for those who liked to optimize their characters from level 1. When they decided to revise the 5e rules in 2024, they wanted to focus more on where you came from and not who your people were. So, they tied the mechanical benefit to the BACKGROUND, rather than the SPECIES. If you allow customized backgrounds right away, the choice of a background will cease to matter again. There is still a lot of customization in the new rules, but they didn't include rules for a custom background for a reason. They want you to try the new system and not devolve into an ala carte character creation. But hey, it's your game at your table. Nobody is stopping you from doing what you want
Yes, they fixed the issue with race (now species) kind of locking you into certain classes if you cared about effectiveness (or even just survivability at low levels) in Tasha's - then for the new revision, they took a step or two backwards from where it was in Tasha's.
EK is busted though. Sure, you still need 13 str for heavy armor, but you can just max int and use it for attack. Add that you can replace one attack with a cantrip (green flame blade) and you will deal a ton of damage. All while still having a free hand for a shield.
How would you plan to attack with INT? My guess is shillelagh but Shillelagh is only applicable too Quarterstaff and Club, since you mention a shield that would work but Personally I still think for an EK a Heavy weapon will still always perform better, using GWM.
The new version of True Strike allows you to use your Spellcasting ability modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity with a weapon, as well as having your choice of original damage type or radiant.
They took a spell that was probably the most useless thing in 2014 and made it a virtual must have for spell casters looking for a last resort when enemies get too close
The changes to Magic Initiate have huge implications too. Used to be nearly impossible to do any decent healing as a wizard without multiclassing. But now they can trivially pick up Cure Wounds, cast it using Intelligence and their spell slots as if it were a wizard spell, and because healing spells were reclassed as Abjuration spells, an Abjurer can even use that to fuel their Arcane Ward. On the flip side, clerics can now pick up Blade Ward and True Strike and do much better as melee fighters.
My initial reaction to this (wizards getting fairly easy access to Cure Wounds) was disappointment.
I'm making an abjurer for an upcoming campaign, and gave this some thought. Decided I still wouldn't bother. But I ended up liking the idea that I could craft a caster that way (if it fit my concept, etc.).
I think I'm just jaded about healing, though. It feels like in each of the half-dozen campaigns I've been in, if anyone played a cleric, they selected a Life cleric. Which...ugh, it's just so boring. So, compared to that level of healing, a wizard getting a decent healing option is mediocre at best. Makes for great back-up healing, I guess, if your party for whatever doesn't have a bard, cleric, or paladin.
EK is busted though. Sure, you still need 13 str for heavy armor, but you can just max int and use it for attack. Add that you can replace one attack with a cantrip (green flame blade) and you will deal a ton of damage. All while still having a free hand for a shield.
How would you plan to attack with INT? My guess is shillelagh but Shillelagh is only applicable too Quarterstaff and Club, since you mention a shield that would work but Personally I still think for an EK a Heavy weapon will still always perform better, using GWM.
The new version of True Strike allows you to use your Spellcasting ability modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity with a weapon, as well as having your choice of original damage type or radiant.
They took a spell that was probably the most useless thing in 2014 and made it a virtual must have for spell casters looking for a last resort when enemies get too close
It is a really good spell now. Still not great as a primary source of damage to build around, but it is a good spell to have when your caster gets stuck in melee. At least that is my opinion.
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Did they just completely remove sorcerer and warlock in the new rules? Cant seem to find them in feats
Yes, it's limited to Wizard, Druid and Cleric now, you can no longer pickup Sorcerer, Warlock, Bard, Paladin or Ranger spells from magic initiate. Same is True for bard's magical secrets too now, it is also limited to Cleric, Wizard and Druid spells.
Well that sucks guess ill be using old rules then, new edition has a lot of good things but character creation now feels limiting ngl
You could homebrew more stuff, assuming your DM is fine with it.
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Note that the new version also lets you adapt the spells to your casting stat, regardless of class.
The new version also lets you cast those spells with spell slots. Also, the Sorcerer spell list is 99% just a subset of the wizard spell list (the only ones unique to them off the top of my head are the new Sorcerous Burst cantrip and Chaos Bolt, but the new Chromatic Orb is now a better version of Chaos Bolt.)
This was changed because the excluded class's spell lists are very closely tied to their identity (e.g. the warlock spell list isn't just random arcane spells, they contain lots of very thematic spells that really lean into the eldritch angle of the warlock.) Magical Secrets was especially problematic because Bards could loot Find Greater Steed from the Paladin list and outshine a Paladin at their own game since Paladins get higher level spells much more slowly than full casters. The topic comes up around the 6:00 mark in this video:
There's still a loophole through the Eldritch Adept feat from Tasha's, since Pact of the Tome is now a 1st level invocation, and that one still doesn't have any class restriction. Since it's not an Origin Feat, you'll have to wait until 4th level though.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Yeah, they needed to nerf Magic Initiate and Magical Secrets' pools a little. Note that in trade Bards now get access to 3 extra lists from the point they gain feature on and can swap them out same as other known spells, not just as one-off picks at certain levels.
The changes to Magic Initiate have huge implications too. Used to be nearly impossible to do any decent healing as a wizard without multiclassing. But now they can trivially pick up Cure Wounds, cast it using Intelligence and their spell slots as if it were a wizard spell, and because healing spells were reclassed as Abjuration spells, an Abjurer can even use that to fuel their Arcane Ward. On the flip side, clerics can now pick up Blade Ward and True Strike and do much better as melee fighters.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
There is also the consideration of the implementation of Origin feats and ritual spells with Magic Initiate being an origin feat, it's a lot easier to pick up as well, and since it does have the Wizard spell list, it does also give access to some useful ritual spells, including Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Identity, and a few other potentially good ritual spells which can be used by non-spellcasters to get a bit more utility.
I'm playing a Wizard who's a bit of a jokester, so took the Magic Initiate (Bard) in order to have access to "Vicious Mockery". It seems like the new rules won't allow for this. I haven't looked into swapping to a Bard with Magic Initiate (Wizard) to see how the end results compare.
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They did, but then made it so you can take more than one, and you get to choose what Spellcasting you use.
How would you plan to attack with INT? My guess is shillelagh but Shillelagh is only applicable too Quarterstaff and Club, since you mention a shield that would work but Personally I still think for an EK a Heavy weapon will still always perform better, using GWM.
The issue is, D&DB has not adequately laid the groundwork for you to EASILY mix and match what rules your DM is allowing.
Example:
In my current campaign, I play a Gloom Stalker Ranger who was going to use the Fighting Style to pick up Unarmed Fighting (which you couldn't do initially because the character creator wouldn't let you pick a fighting style after you selected that option). She's a human, so at 1st level I had planned to pick up Magic Initiate Druid to grab Primal Savagery (no longer a supported Cantrip option), Starry Wisps, and Cure Wounds. So right off the bat, my Fighting Style and one of my Cantrips were no longer options.
This has since been fixed on the Character Creation function, but before it was I had to do everything as custom actions...which is a HUGE pain to get to function correctly on the character sheet.
If everything is SUPPOSED to be compatible...then why are options blocked, even temporarily? I mean they took the site down to "upgrade" so this wouldn't be an issue...but here it is BEING AN ISSUE...
That's intentional. For 6 years, from 2014 to 2020, stat increases were tied to your race. If you wanted a fighter, you chose a dwarf or a half-orc. If you wanted a rogue, you chose elf or halfling. If you wanted a bard or sorcerer, you chose halfling or drow elf. You matched your race with the stat increases that gave your character a leg up. Backgrounds, on the other hand, were MEANINGLESS. There was little to gain from a background and your power level didn't require it. I knew guys who completely forgot their background because they never used the feature associated with it. (I'm a sailor? Oh, yeah, I AM a sailor. Don't I get something for that? Free trips? Oh, yeah!) The 2014 PHB reinforced this perspective by allowing players to custom their backgrounds, from day one. Because they didn't matter, game wise. It was just fluff. For 6 years that was the status quo. Some people complained, but most either lived with it. Until 2020 and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. That's when they separated stats from races and allowed a custom race. It was a concession to keep the game interesting for those who liked to optimize their characters from level 1. When they decided to revise the 5e rules in 2024, they wanted to focus more on where you came from and not who your people were. So, they tied the mechanical benefit to the BACKGROUND, rather than the SPECIES. If you allow customized backgrounds right away, the choice of a background will cease to matter again. There is still a lot of customization in the new rules, but they didn't include rules for a custom background for a reason. They want you to try the new system and not devolve into an ala carte character creation. But hey, it's your game at your table. Nobody is stopping you from doing what you want
I don't know about Sorcerer, but definitely Warlock. No one is getting Eldritch Blasts unless you dip into Warlock. 😎
The new version of True Strike allows you to use your Spellcasting ability modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity with a weapon, as well as having your choice of original damage type or radiant.
Yes, they fixed the issue with race (now species) kind of locking you into certain classes if you cared about effectiveness (or even just survivability at low levels) in Tasha's - then for the new revision, they took a step or two backwards from where it was in Tasha's.
They took a spell that was probably the most useless thing in 2014 and made it a virtual must have for spell casters looking for a last resort when enemies get too close
My initial reaction to this (wizards getting fairly easy access to Cure Wounds) was disappointment.
I'm making an abjurer for an upcoming campaign, and gave this some thought. Decided I still wouldn't bother. But I ended up liking the idea that I could craft a caster that way (if it fit my concept, etc.).
I think I'm just jaded about healing, though. It feels like in each of the half-dozen campaigns I've been in, if anyone played a cleric, they selected a Life cleric. Which...ugh, it's just so boring. So, compared to that level of healing, a wizard getting a decent healing option is mediocre at best. Makes for great back-up healing, I guess, if your party for whatever doesn't have a bard, cleric, or paladin.
It is a really good spell now. Still not great as a primary source of damage to build around, but it is a good spell to have when your caster gets stuck in melee. At least that is my opinion.
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