In the campaign that I DM, I have a Rogue in the party and I'm struggling to find ways to make combat interesting for him.
He's a level 4 Thief in a party with a Druid, Bard, Fighter and Paladin, and it just seems like every round of combat the best thing for him to do is just move and then shoot his short bow at whoever the paladin or fighter are engaged in combat with, as this will count as a Sneak Attack.
Even if I send enemies around the back, to fly over to him, or to otherwise get close somehow, he can use Cunning Action to Disengage, move to a clear field of fire and then shoot at whoever the Paladin/Fighter are wailing on. In many fights, it's not always an option to have minions going for the back line either.
My issue with this is that it makes combat incredibly formulaic for the rogue. Instead of dashing in and out of combat delivering a Sneak Attack and then using his Cunning Action to get away or into cover again, choosing vulnerable targets, the choice of his target is usually going to be dictated by whoever the melee characters have chosen as their take-down. This feels to me to be quite formulaic and removes an element of choice from the player that I'd like him to have. But it also just feels fundamentally wrong to me for the Rogue to function principally as an archer. To me, Backstab (as it used to be called) involved stabbing people in the back!
Recently I've started counting intervening creatures as soft cover (+2 AC), 2 intervening creatures as Hard Cover (+5 AC), with a risk of hitting the creatures in the way. I don't want to change the Rogue class, so this of course applies universally both to players and monsters, but especially with Cunning Action to Dash, even in crowded combats he can find a line of fire. The game seems perfectly well balanced, but at the same time, it just doesn't seem to fit the class to play this way.
Anyone had any good ways to avoid:
Rogue's target being dictated more by other party members than the rogue
Anything that encourages him to get up close
The only thing I can think of is creatures that have resistance or immunity to non-magical attacks, but he doesn't have a magic weapon of any kind so that wouldn't really help.
If the Rogue is able to hide for their bonus action on their turn - or did so on their previous turn and maintained it - their attacks against targets that can't see them have advantage which means they can use sneak attack. This allows them to shoot anybody they wish - not just who the melee are hugging.
Also - they should try to put themselves in a position to get an attack of opportunity since they can get sneak attack on reactions as well (as long as the target is eligible for sneak attack). If they don't know this - then letting them know will probably get them into melee more often.
In terms of Hiding, I'm fine with this as it encourages the rogue to move from place to place. I tend to rule that after attacking from one hiding position they won't be able to get Sneak Attack from the same spot again as the surprise of it is blown, but they can move to another location and Hide there. If it's a case of Shoot, Hide, Shoot, Hide etc. without moving this still leaves them operating as a turret, which again isn't terribly dynamic. But I should definitely remind him that he should Hide more to get Advantage on his shots at least.
Regarding Attack of Opportunity - since you can only get one Sneak Attack per turn, if they already used it in their turn won't they be unable to use it again until their next turn?
Regarding Attack of Opportunity - since you can only get one Sneak Attack per turn, if they already used it in their turn won't they be unable to use it again until their next turn?
Sneak Attack is once per turn. Notice: "turn" not "round". When they take an attack of opportunity it is no longer their turn - it's the enemy's who just tried to flee from them.
So I want to throw a few of my own ideas into this to help, you can always add a ton of extra cover to the map and then also add in ways the rogue can use effective movement to get around it
you could also throw in a few close quarters combat to spice things up or even add special objectives like, get through the lines letting the rogue use there stealth differently, and finally you could also give them powerful melee weapons like magic daggers to promote getting in close
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Marvarax andSora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
One way to think about Sneak Attack is that the rogue is taking advantage of a distracted or unaware target. The enemy is engaged with the paladin or fighter. The rogue, seeing the enemy moving to dodge / block the paladin/fighter's attack, uses that moment to fire their arrow into the enemies' side. In that case, the engaged enemy is a vulnerable target.
It is an intentional design choice by WotC to expand the rogue's ability to deal bonus damage beyond just melee attacks (starting in 3e), hence the name change from Backstab to Sneak Attack.
As for the things you want to avoid:
Rogue's target being dictated more by other party members than the rogue
Ganging up to focus down a single creature at a time is actually a great tactical choice, as that means less attacks against the party in the long run
Making them get up close
Use environmental hazards / terrain design to limit access. Or give the BBEG a teleport (like Misty Step) to gap close.
Question: has the player said that combat is boring and formulaic, or are you worried that the player is seeing it that way? Because you're framing some of this as worry from your POV, and I just want to make sure that this is actually an issue for the player as well, as opposed to you making combat harder than it needs to be if they're already having a great time as-is.
My view on the rogue turret is that their contribution to combat is almost exclusively tied to their sneak attack. Without it, they fall behind incredibly fast and people don't like to feel like they can't contribute. The advice above is always great advice for more then just a rogue. However, I would also suggest occasionally playing into their other strengths such as pick pocketing something needed to allow the fight to finish, thieves tools check traps that are hindering the rest of the party or to disable/take control of a trap/device that is being used against them, or something specialized for their character.
But as pocketmouse was saying, if they are happy. Don't fix what isn't broke.
Question: has the player said that combat is boring and formulaic, or are you worried that the player is seeing it that way? Because you're framing some of this as worry from your POV, and I just want to make sure that this is actually an issue for the player as well, as opposed to you making combat harder than it needs to be if they're already having a great time as-is.
The player hasn't voiced it as a concern, but I know that he picked the class wanting to stab things with a sword (my group all trains HEMA together), and I've observed that in basically every fight it's optimal (and quite correctly played by him) to play as an archer. This makes a lot of the flavour of the rogue abilities seem quite redundant to me. My issue is also just with the rogue class design in general, as rogues seem to be straight up better as a long ranged sniper than anything else.
I tend to believe that having options is what makes classes fun. Choosing which spell to cast, which resources to use at that moment, whether to Smite, whether I should heal my ally or try to burn down the boss, where to position myself to best help my allies - these are the best bits of combat in my mind, as they make combat strategic. But without specific encounter design, I'm struggling to see anything that a rogue can do in combat that beats "I shoot that guy next to the melee with my bow" in every round of combat, since the rogue seems to have no other combat versatility. The game works ok in terms of balance, but I want to provide a more dynamic combat experience for my players.
My view on the rogue turret is that their contribution to combat is almost exclusively tied to their sneak attack. Without it, they fall behind incredibly fast and people don't like to feel like they can't contribute. The advice above is always great advice for more then just a rogue. However, I would also suggest occasionally playing into their other strengths such as pick pocketing something needed to allow the fight to finish, thieves tools check traps that are hindering the rest of the party or to disable/take control of a trap/device that is being used against them, or something specialized for their character.
But as pocketmouse was saying, if they are happy. Don't fix what isn't broke.
I definitely agree on sneak attack being an essential part of a rogue's damage dealing, I'm just a bit bummed that provided you just let the melee pick the targets it requires no actual sneaking of any kind and might as well be considered base damage - and is simply better at range as it keeps the rogue safer. I think the player picked the rogue class to be a sneaky, backstabbing thug, and instead has ended up as an archer.
All of those things you mention as being the best bits of combat, while great for you, may not be great for other players. As a rogue, you have an incredible simple decision tree
Position myself in a way that when I attack, I will get Sneak Attack
Attack
Some characters like that they do not have to think as much and just get to roll lots of d6s.
It seems like you main issue is that rogues make good archers. Which is true in 5e. But that comes with limits
they can only make one attack, so if they miss, they are out of luck.
by using a ranged weapons, they cannot make opportunity attacks, which eliminates another way of getting extra Sneak Attack damage
if an enemy can get close and stay close, they cannot Sneak Attack (without a feat), as using a bow in melee gives disadvantage
If you want a more dynamic experience, mix up the battlefield. Add in fog (obscurement), cover, ambushers, etc.
I'd have to say I agree, it seems like you might be solving a problem that doesn't exist. At least, doesn't exist yet. But it could become one going forward, as you are worried about.
In terms of things you can do to make this combat style less effective, you could use a more intelligent, strategist enemy leading a group of tanky but otherwise non-threatening melee meat shields. Have the meat-shields swarm the Paladin/Fighter. As the Rogue begins his pew-pew strategy, have the leader take notice, and use Wind Wall or Wall of Force to separate the Rogue from the melee brawl. This will force the Rogue to do other things, as both will deflect projectiles (like arrows).
>The player hasn't voiced it as a concern, but I know that he picked the class wanting to stab things with a sword (my group all trains HEMA together), and I've observed that in basically every fight it's optimal (and quite correctly played by him) to play as an archer.
It won't fix the feeling that the targets are "chosen" by the other players, but hav you considered using the optionnal flanking rule in your game. It would give a reason to go in melee instead of staying at a distance by giving advantage to melee attacks when it is safe to flank the enemy.
The player hasn't voiced it as a concern, but I know that he picked the class wanting to stab things with a sword (my group all trains HEMA together), and I've observed that in basically every fight it's optimal (and quite correctly played by him) to play as an archer. This makes a lot of the flavour of the rogue abilities seem quite redundant to me. My issue is also just with the rogue class design in general, as rogues seem to be straight up better as a long ranged sniper than anything else.
What is he Sneak Attacking with? He could consider dual wield short swords or scimitars? It would give him two chances to hit/crit as apposed to just one shot with his bow?
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Give the character a fun melee magic weapon. Toss them a dagger that has a chance of inflicting the Poison condition on enemies. They'll risk the danger of getting closer in combat to be able to take advantage of it. They might still withdraw when things get hairy and focus on range, but if you make melee just a better option in general they'll want to at least occasionally take advantage of it.
A lot of good suggestions here already. I would just add that you can add in more environment-centric aspects to combat. Rocks, trees, pillars, barrels, giant mushrooms can all count as cover for both the party and for their opponents. Use things like quicksand, open pits, lava, spinning saws, big carnivorous plants and arrow slits in the walls to make fighting more exciting in general and give the high DEX Rogue another way to shine. Set things up so that it's not always useful to go forward quickly - traps, guards that the party can't easily access (or where killing the guards would be bad for the party's rep), etc.
Also, you haven't yet said anything about the subclass for the Rogue. The subclass can have a big impact on how a player sees their character.
He's a level 4 Thief in a party with a Druid, Bard, Fighter and Paladin, and it just seems like every round of combat the best thing for him to do is just move and then shoot his short bow at whoever the paladin or fighter are engaged in combat with, as this will count as a Sneak Attack.
So no luck on getting any sneak attack from the subclass itself, but as Wysperra suggested dual wielding would give the rogue 2 chance to trigger a sneak attack at the cost of the rogue's bonus action which couldn't then be used on the cunning action. If we add the flanking rules it provides "4 chance" (2 attacks with advantage) to hit the target. It is a pretty good incentive to get in melee if you ask me. While the rogue would still be limited to target the enemies that the rest of the party are engaged with, he still has to chose between a higher chance at triggering a sneak attack at the risk of being in melee or a lower chance but staying at the safe at range.
I think this is more a problem for the rogue than it is for the DM. If the rogue isn't bored, there is no problem. If the Rogue /is/ bored, the rogue has other options, such as playing more of a movement based style. If the problem is /only/ that the DM thinks the player's playstyle is boring...the DM needs to stay in their lane and let the player worry about it.
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In the campaign that I DM, I have a Rogue in the party and I'm struggling to find ways to make combat interesting for him.
He's a level 4 Thief in a party with a Druid, Bard, Fighter and Paladin, and it just seems like every round of combat the best thing for him to do is just move and then shoot his short bow at whoever the paladin or fighter are engaged in combat with, as this will count as a Sneak Attack.
Even if I send enemies around the back, to fly over to him, or to otherwise get close somehow, he can use Cunning Action to Disengage, move to a clear field of fire and then shoot at whoever the Paladin/Fighter are wailing on. In many fights, it's not always an option to have minions going for the back line either.
My issue with this is that it makes combat incredibly formulaic for the rogue. Instead of dashing in and out of combat delivering a Sneak Attack and then using his Cunning Action to get away or into cover again, choosing vulnerable targets, the choice of his target is usually going to be dictated by whoever the melee characters have chosen as their take-down. This feels to me to be quite formulaic and removes an element of choice from the player that I'd like him to have. But it also just feels fundamentally wrong to me for the Rogue to function principally as an archer. To me, Backstab (as it used to be called) involved stabbing people in the back!
Recently I've started counting intervening creatures as soft cover (+2 AC), 2 intervening creatures as Hard Cover (+5 AC), with a risk of hitting the creatures in the way. I don't want to change the Rogue class, so this of course applies universally both to players and monsters, but especially with Cunning Action to Dash, even in crowded combats he can find a line of fire. The game seems perfectly well balanced, but at the same time, it just doesn't seem to fit the class to play this way.
Anyone had any good ways to avoid:
The only thing I can think of is creatures that have resistance or immunity to non-magical attacks, but he doesn't have a magic weapon of any kind so that wouldn't really help.
If the Rogue is able to hide for their bonus action on their turn - or did so on their previous turn and maintained it - their attacks against targets that can't see them have advantage which means they can use sneak attack. This allows them to shoot anybody they wish - not just who the melee are hugging.
Also - they should try to put themselves in a position to get an attack of opportunity since they can get sneak attack on reactions as well (as long as the target is eligible for sneak attack). If they don't know this - then letting them know will probably get them into melee more often.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
In terms of Hiding, I'm fine with this as it encourages the rogue to move from place to place. I tend to rule that after attacking from one hiding position they won't be able to get Sneak Attack from the same spot again as the surprise of it is blown, but they can move to another location and Hide there. If it's a case of Shoot, Hide, Shoot, Hide etc. without moving this still leaves them operating as a turret, which again isn't terribly dynamic. But I should definitely remind him that he should Hide more to get Advantage on his shots at least.
Regarding Attack of Opportunity - since you can only get one Sneak Attack per turn, if they already used it in their turn won't they be unable to use it again until their next turn?
Add enemy archers and spellcasters using cover to try to take out the “sniper” rogue. Or enemy rogues doing the same thing back at the party.
Sneak Attack is once per turn. Notice: "turn" not "round". When they take an attack of opportunity it is no longer their turn - it's the enemy's who just tried to flee from them.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
So I want to throw a few of my own ideas into this to help, you can always add a ton of extra cover to the map and then also add in ways the rogue can use effective movement to get around it
you could also throw in a few close quarters combat to spice things up or even add special objectives like, get through the lines letting the rogue use there stealth differently, and finally you could also give them powerful melee weapons like magic daggers to promote getting in close
Marvarax and Sora (Dragonborn) The retired fighter and WIP scholar - Glory
Brythel(Dwarf), The dwarf with a gun - survival at sea
Jaylin(Human), Paladin of Lathander's Ancient ways - The Seven Saints (Azura Claw)
Urselles(Goblin), Cleric of Eldath- The Wizard's challenge
Viclas Tyrin(Half Elf), Student of the Elven arts- Indrafatmoko's Defiance in Phlan
One way to think about Sneak Attack is that the rogue is taking advantage of a distracted or unaware target. The enemy is engaged with the paladin or fighter. The rogue, seeing the enemy moving to dodge / block the paladin/fighter's attack, uses that moment to fire their arrow into the enemies' side. In that case, the engaged enemy is a vulnerable target.
It is an intentional design choice by WotC to expand the rogue's ability to deal bonus damage beyond just melee attacks (starting in 3e), hence the name change from Backstab to Sneak Attack.
As for the things you want to avoid:
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Question: has the player said that combat is boring and formulaic, or are you worried that the player is seeing it that way? Because you're framing some of this as worry from your POV, and I just want to make sure that this is actually an issue for the player as well, as opposed to you making combat harder than it needs to be if they're already having a great time as-is.
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My view on the rogue turret is that their contribution to combat is almost exclusively tied to their sneak attack. Without it, they fall behind incredibly fast and people don't like to feel like they can't contribute.
The advice above is always great advice for more then just a rogue. However, I would also suggest occasionally playing into their other strengths such as pick pocketing something needed to allow the fight to finish, thieves tools check traps that are hindering the rest of the party or to disable/take control of a trap/device that is being used against them, or something specialized for their character.
But as pocketmouse was saying, if they are happy. Don't fix what isn't broke.
The player hasn't voiced it as a concern, but I know that he picked the class wanting to stab things with a sword (my group all trains HEMA together), and I've observed that in basically every fight it's optimal (and quite correctly played by him) to play as an archer. This makes a lot of the flavour of the rogue abilities seem quite redundant to me. My issue is also just with the rogue class design in general, as rogues seem to be straight up better as a long ranged sniper than anything else.
I tend to believe that having options is what makes classes fun. Choosing which spell to cast, which resources to use at that moment, whether to Smite, whether I should heal my ally or try to burn down the boss, where to position myself to best help my allies - these are the best bits of combat in my mind, as they make combat strategic. But without specific encounter design, I'm struggling to see anything that a rogue can do in combat that beats "I shoot that guy next to the melee with my bow" in every round of combat, since the rogue seems to have no other combat versatility. The game works ok in terms of balance, but I want to provide a more dynamic combat experience for my players.
I definitely agree on sneak attack being an essential part of a rogue's damage dealing, I'm just a bit bummed that provided you just let the melee pick the targets it requires no actual sneaking of any kind and might as well be considered base damage - and is simply better at range as it keeps the rogue safer. I think the player picked the rogue class to be a sneaky, backstabbing thug, and instead has ended up as an archer.
All of those things you mention as being the best bits of combat, while great for you, may not be great for other players. As a rogue, you have an incredible simple decision tree
Some characters like that they do not have to think as much and just get to roll lots of d6s.
It seems like you main issue is that rogues make good archers. Which is true in 5e. But that comes with limits
If you want a more dynamic experience, mix up the battlefield. Add in fog (obscurement), cover, ambushers, etc.
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I'd have to say I agree, it seems like you might be solving a problem that doesn't exist. At least, doesn't exist yet. But it could become one going forward, as you are worried about.
In terms of things you can do to make this combat style less effective, you could use a more intelligent, strategist enemy leading a group of tanky but otherwise non-threatening melee meat shields. Have the meat-shields swarm the Paladin/Fighter. As the Rogue begins his pew-pew strategy, have the leader take notice, and use Wind Wall or Wall of Force to separate the Rogue from the melee brawl. This will force the Rogue to do other things, as both will deflect projectiles (like arrows).
>The player hasn't voiced it as a concern, but I know that he picked the class wanting to stab things with a sword (my group all trains HEMA together), and I've observed that in basically every fight it's optimal (and quite correctly played by him) to play as an archer.
It won't fix the feeling that the targets are "chosen" by the other players, but hav you considered using the optionnal flanking rule in your game. It would give a reason to go in melee instead of staying at a distance by giving advantage to melee attacks when it is safe to flank the enemy.
What is he Sneak Attacking with? He could consider dual wield short swords or scimitars? It would give him two chances to hit/crit as apposed to just one shot with his bow?
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Give the character a fun melee magic weapon. Toss them a dagger that has a chance of inflicting the Poison condition on enemies. They'll risk the danger of getting closer in combat to be able to take advantage of it. They might still withdraw when things get hairy and focus on range, but if you make melee just a better option in general they'll want to at least occasionally take advantage of it.
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A lot of good suggestions here already. I would just add that you can add in more environment-centric aspects to combat. Rocks, trees, pillars, barrels, giant mushrooms can all count as cover for both the party and for their opponents. Use things like quicksand, open pits, lava, spinning saws, big carnivorous plants and arrow slits in the walls to make fighting more exciting in general and give the high DEX Rogue another way to shine. Set things up so that it's not always useful to go forward quickly - traps, guards that the party can't easily access (or where killing the guards would be bad for the party's rep), etc.
Also, you haven't yet said anything about the subclass for the Rogue. The subclass can have a big impact on how a player sees their character.
So no luck on getting any sneak attack from the subclass itself, but as Wysperra suggested dual wielding would give the rogue 2 chance to trigger a sneak attack at the cost of the rogue's bonus action which couldn't then be used on the cunning action. If we add the flanking rules it provides "4 chance" (2 attacks with advantage) to hit the target. It is a pretty good incentive to get in melee if you ask me. While the rogue would still be limited to target the enemies that the rest of the party are engaged with, he still has to chose between a higher chance at triggering a sneak attack at the risk of being in melee or a lower chance but staying at the safe at range.
I think this is more a problem for the rogue than it is for the DM. If the rogue isn't bored, there is no problem. If the Rogue /is/ bored, the rogue has other options, such as playing more of a movement based style. If the problem is /only/ that the DM thinks the player's playstyle is boring...the DM needs to stay in their lane and let the player worry about it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
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Sorry, I missed the mention of "Thief." Is this a fairly new player? How is this person using Fast Hands?