(There was a poll but it looks like a mod removed it.  It's not a big deal because it was a bit pointless.)

We've had a big discussion about this on the recent MotM goblin article, but it basically boils down to:  Some people like the new rules and don't understand why others want to keep the old rules, and some people want to keep the old rules but aren't against having Tasha's new Ability Score Improvement rule as an optional rule.  The two different camps are trying to communicate, so I decided to just clarify to everyone what people in my group (Wanting to keep set racial ability scores) are trying to say.

We aren't against the Tasha's optional rule.  In my case, I actually like it.  It gives me the ability to let my players be more powerful if they want to play a specific race-class combination without feeling penalized for it.  But the reason we're a bit frustrated is that that optional rule is becoming the default rule.  In all of the new races going forward, they don't have even a suggested set of ability score improvements, just the same +1 and +2.  In my case, this can make those races a bit harder to explain to my players what those races are good at, as my players are pretty new to the game, and often look at ability scores as a way of appraising a race.  I know that's not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm fine with that.  That's why I liked Tasha's rule as an optional rule.

That's pretty much it.  We just like to play the game different ways, and now one of those ways is being removed.  That's why some people are irritated.  I'm not trying to argue with anyone, just explaining.

(Rant about Volo's and MToF below)

So, Volo's Guide to Monsters and Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes are being discontinued both in digital and physical forms.  The sites won't take away your copies if you already bought them, but the races in them are being replaced by the versions in Monsters of the Multiverse are no longer official content.  Suddenly, the default lore for goblins is being fey-born and hobgoblins are helpful and friendly.  Now people who wanted to use goblins as they originally are are being forced to depart from the now-canon lore.  Can anyone else see why this is a problem?  So many people bought those books, and now they're obsolete.  Why couldn't they just leave the books as be and put the new versions as multiverse variants?  New players can't even access the original races any more, not to mention all of the lore that's just being rewritten.

Alright, rant over.  I hope you all have a nice day!

the races in them are being replaced by the versions in Monsters of the Multiverse.  Suddenly, the default lore for goblins is being fey-born and hobgoblins are helpful and friendly.  Now people who wanted to use goblins as they originally are are being forced to depart from the now-canon lore. 

 Incorrect. You will still have access to what is now the "Legacy" content and can use what lore makes sense in your game. Much like Alignment, diagonal movement taking more movement, and many other rules that presented as "Default" you are free to use it or not.

The only races you can't run with specific stat bonuses and the like are those that were released after Tasha's with no innate bonuses, but a clever DM can make a ruling on default bonuses for pretty much everything.

Quote from Dakael >>

the races in them are being replaced by the versions in Monsters of the Multiverse.  Suddenly, the default lore for goblins is being fey-born and hobgoblins are helpful and friendly.  Now people who wanted to use goblins as they originally are are being forced to depart from the now-canon lore. 

 Incorrect. You will still have access to what is now the "Legacy" content and can use what lore makes sense in your game. Much like Alignment, diagonal movement taking more movement, and many other rules that presented as "Default" you are free to use it or not.

The only races you can't run with specific stat bonuses and the like are those that were released after Tasha's with no innate bonuses, but a clever DM can make a ruling on default bonuses for pretty much everything.

 Okay, I did say that in an incorrect way.  What I meant is that it will be way harder to convince a group to use the content in a book that is now obsolete instead the book that is now official.  I do realize that we still have access to the content, but it will be much less usable if no new players will be able to access Volo's and MToF.  I did not mean that it is literally impossible to use those, just that it will be harder to convince groups to use something that is no longer official.

I guess we can make decisions about innate bonuses, but it's mostly annoying that they just decided to stop supporting set stat bonuses, even as an optional rule.

I hope you have a great day!

Quote from Yharim >>

Quote from Dakael >>

the races in them are being replaced by the versions in Monsters of the Multiverse.  Suddenly, the default lore for goblins is being fey-born and hobgoblins are helpful and friendly.  Now people who wanted to use goblins as they originally are are being forced to depart from the now-canon lore. 

 Incorrect. You will still have access to what is now the "Legacy" content and can use what lore makes sense in your game. Much like Alignment, diagonal movement taking more movement, and many other rules that presented as "Default" you are free to use it or not.

The only races you can't run with specific stat bonuses and the like are those that were released after Tasha's with no innate bonuses, but a clever DM can make a ruling on default bonuses for pretty much everything.

 Okay, I did say that in an incorrect way.  What I meant is that it will be way harder to convince a group to use the content in a book that is now obsolete instead the book that is now official.  I do realize that we still have access to the content, but it will be much less usable if no new players will be able to access Volo's and MToF.  I did not mean that it is literally impossible to use those, just that it will be harder to convince groups to use something that is no longer official.

I guess we can make decisions about that, but it's mostly annoying that they just decided to stop supporting set stat bonuses, even as an optional rule.

 Fair. I know if that were an issue I had it would be addressed when getting the game together. "Hey y'all, I would like to use legacy rules for <races> this game as it suits the game world better, is that a deal-breaker for anyone?"

I can at least agree that anything that makes the administration of your personal game more difficult is bad for you. I am blessed with a great group of understanding players who rarely give me any difficulty out of game. Most of the time lol

Your "clarification" is well known.  There have been thousands of posts written on the subject of Tasha's changes to the game in the two-odd years since the announcement and subsequent release of Tasha's Cauldron.  While I appreciate your calm stance on the matter, the subject is rather permanently soured for most forum veterans, and the moderation team in specific is extremely sick of it.  Primarily because bad eggs tend to argue about why they're not actually racist for hating the new rules, everybody gets into a tizzy, and the thread gets shut down amidst a flurry of Vacation Points.  People have been indefinitely banned over this issue, that's how bad some of the historic catfights have gotten.  We'll see if this thread does better, but let's remember, everybody - the screeching ***** fights never end well for anyone involved.

Interesting side note: Ghostfire Gaming's new product on Kickstarter, Arora, promises a system wherein players do not specify a single "race", but instead build their character from a pool of "over eighty unique traits".  Elsewhere in the Kickstarter page, it's hinted at that this system is basically a point-buy approach for assembling your character from existing PHB species traits, due to Arora's fractious history and Apocalypse Survival focus blurring bloodlines on that specific world.  A lot of people were terrified that 5e would go that direction, and an equally large number of people were convinced Wizards would never do it.  I remain convinced of this...heh, but Ghostfire Gaming isn't Wizards.  They are, however, a very successful 5e bolt-on company with a proven track record in Grim Hollow.  Anyone else curious to see how they're going to implement such a contentious idea in their new book, since many folks figured it was fundamentally impossible to do 'point builder'/GURPS-esque character building in 5e?

The funny thing about Ability Scores is the thing that I was gonna compare it to is alignment, which is also being abandoned, but here's my thought process...

In the original Racial descriptions, Each race was given recommended Alignments, but there was no mechanical rule in place that forced players to play into those alignments, but if you were creating, for example, a Goblin, you would get recommended being Neutral Evil, and even if you didn't choose that alignment it does help to give some idea of what would be the natural direction to take the character, and you could stand out from others by being different. 

I think it makes sense to just have a universal rule stating that any race/class can do the "+2, +1" or "+1, +1, +1" to any of your ability scores you want, and give recommended scores for individual races. For one, it would save space, because every single Race in MPMM has a two-line description on every single race explaining the exact same rule every single time. At that point... just set that as a universal rule and save some space. Going back to Alignments... they just got rid of that from racial descriptions. Imagine if every single race still had a section for Alignment and each one was just an identical, "Every person, regardless of race, is a unique individual and may have any alignment, although it's possible to not use the alignment system at all, although if some items depend on alignment the DM will yadda yadda yadda..."

LOL at the poll options

Quote from Yharim >>

What I meant is that it will be way harder to convince a group to use the content in a book that is now obsolete instead the book that is now official.

How would it any more difficult than any other homebrew, third party or "non-canon" content?

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Your "clarification" is well known.  There have been thousands of posts written on the subject of Tasha's changes to the game in the two-odd years since the announcement and subsequent release of Tasha's Cauldron.  While I appreciate your calm stance on the matter, the subject is rather permanently soured for most forum veterans, and the moderation team in specific is extremely sick of it.  Primarily because bad eggs tend to argue about why they're not actually racist for hating the new rules, everybody gets into a tizzy, and the thread gets shut down amidst a flurry of Vacation Points.  People have been indefinitely banned over this issue, that's how bad some of the historic catfights have gotten.  We'll see if this thread does better, but let's remember, everybody - the screeching ***** fights never end well for anyone involved.

Interesting side note: Ghostfire Gaming's new product on Kickstarter, Arora, promises a system wherein players do not specify a single "race", but instead build their character from a pool of "over eighty unique traits".  Elsewhere in the Kickstarter page, it's hinted at that this system is basically a point-buy approach for assembling your character from existing PHB species traits, due to Arora's fractious history and Apocalypse Survival focus blurring bloodlines on that specific world.  A lot of people were terrified that 5e would go that direction, and an equally large number of people were convinced Wizards would never do it.  I remain convinced of this...heh, but Ghostfire Gaming isn't Wizards.  They are, however, a very successful 5e bolt-on company with a proven track record in Grim Hollow.  Anyone else curious to see how they're going to implement such a contentious idea in their new book, since many folks figured it was fundamentally impossible to do 'point builder'/GURPS-esque character building in 5e?

 Ahh, thank you for letting me in on that.  I don't often participate in places with people yelling at each other, so I wasn't aware of most of those posts.  I'd seen a couple, but I didn't know it had happened a lot.  Well, I'll make sure to ask a mod to close the thread if it does get to that point.  I like discussion, but not people just yelling at each other over who's right.

Quote from TransmorpherDDS >>

The funny thing about Ability Scores is the thing that I was gonna compare it to is alignment, which is also being abandoned, but here's my thought process...

In the original Racial descriptions, Each race was given recommended Alignments, but there was no mechanical rule in place that forced players to play into those alignments, but if you were creating, for example, a Goblin, you would get recommended being Neutral Evil, and even if you didn't choose that alignment it does help to give some idea of what would be the natural direction to take the character, and you could stand out from others by being different. 

I think it makes sense to just have a universal rule stating that any race/class can do the "+2, +1" or "+1, +1, +1" to any of your ability scores you want, and give recommended scores for individual races. For one, it would save space, because every single Race in MPMM has a two-line description on every single race explaining the exact same rule every single time. At that point... just set that as a universal rule and save some space. Going back to Alignments... they just got rid of that from racial descriptions. Imagine if every single race still had a section for Alignment and each one was just an identical, "Every person, regardless of race, is a unique individual and may have any alignment, although it's possible to not use the alignment system at all, although if some items depend on alignment the DM will yadda yadda yadda..."

 You suggestion for both ability scores an alignment is what I wanted from the beginning!  Just have a suggested alignment and suggested ability score improvement section to each race, and save on printing space!  Something like:

"Many Dragonborn are strong in both body and will.  Optional Suggested Ability Score Improvements:  +2 to strength and +1 to charisma, or vice versa"

and then something like:

"Elves have many different cultures across the land.  Optional Suggested Alignment:  Any Chaotic Alignment."

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Yharim >>

What I meant is that it will be way harder to convince a group to use the content in a book that is now obsolete instead the book that is now official.

 

How would it any more difficult than any other homebrew, third party or "non-canon" content?

 What I was saying is that content that would have just been official content that no one would bat an eye at is now on the level of home-brew content, which some groups are not okay with using.  By discontinuing those books, WotC is making those books worth less to the players that bought them.  I totally understand if you don't use it at all, but I'm just saying this in defense of players in groups that only want to use official content.

Quote from Yharim >>

 You suggestion for both ability scores an alignment is what I wanted from the beginning!  Just have a suggested alignment and suggested ability score improvement section to each race, and save on printing space!  Something like:

"Many Dragonborn are strong in both body and will.  Optional Suggested Ability Score Improvements:  +2 to strength and +1 to charisma, or vice versa"

and then something like:

"Elves have many different cultures across the land.  Optional Suggested Alignment:  Any Chaotic Alignment."

 
The issue with "suggested" scores is that they are not a "suggestion".

Tell me - would you ever allow a player to run a dragonborn that did not have +2STR and +1CHA, even if they had a fan-goddamn-tastic reason for it?  Even if, in the setting this particular dragonborn was being played in, dragonborn were not strong in both body and will and were instead the savage, brutal ancestors of an ancient dragon-corrupted people?  Feral and possessed of low, vicious cunning, with lithe bodies and keen senses that predisposed them to DEX and WIS, instead?

What if elves were a setting's equivalent of ancient Rome, the unquestioned leaders of a vast, decadent empire that predisposed them strongly towards the Law they'd used to conquer the land?

The entire reason behind the new approach is that tying every species firmly and unchangeably to Forgotten Realms lore makes it increasingly difficult to ever play a game in anything but the Forgotten Realms.  If Wizards is going to start selling more and more books for settings other than the Forgotten Realms, then there needs to be more ability for base character blocks and stats to change with the setting they're in rather than trying to shoehorn Forgotten Realms characters into every conceivable setting.  

Now admittedly, the sort of people who will say "suggested ability scores and alignments are not suggestions - either you play the stats and alignment your race gives you or you play a different race" are also generally the sorts who will never play anything but the Forgotten Realms anyways.  So long as they play with other lore purists, everything is kosher.  But the idea is that the rules are changing in ways that empower DMs to make the decisions that are right for their table, rather than challenging DMs to make the decisions that are right for their table despite the rules telling them not to.

Even you yourself said, in your opening post, that you want the lore back wherein goblins are all evil-souled little monstrosities with no redeeming qualities and hobgoblins are vicious tyrannical soldier-marauders, ne?  There are a lot of people who feel extremely uncomfortable with consigning entire sentient species to thjose sorts of buckets, and retaining all of it as "optional" rules kinda defeats the purpose of getting it out of the books in the first place. 

Optional exclusionism is still exclusionism.  If a DM wants to build a world where a given species or selection of species is fundamentally, unconquerably corrupted and their table is fine with it?  Bangin'.  Enjoy your game.  But that decision shouldn't be made in the core rulebooks that are printed for everybody, not just the one table who wants all greenskins to be evil again.

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Quote from Yharim >>

 You suggestion for both ability scores an alignment is what I wanted from the beginning!  Just have a suggested alignment and suggested ability score improvement section to each race, and save on printing space!  Something like:

"Many Dragonborn are strong in both body and will.  Optional Suggested Ability Score Improvements:  +2 to strength and +1 to charisma, or vice versa"

and then something like:

"Elves have many different cultures across the land.  Optional Suggested Alignment:  Any Chaotic Alignment."

 
The issue with "suggested" scores is that they are not a "suggestion".

Tell me - would you ever allow a player to run a dragonborn that did not have +2STR and +1CHA, even if they had a fan-goddamn-tastic reason for it? 

Of course I would (and have). That's called "playing against type." But it's only possible if there is a "type" to play against.

Used the word 'race' there very deliberately.  The folks who argue strongest for fixed racial ASIs and elimination of the Tasha's Cauldron rule are also - generally - the people arguing most strongly for retention of the word 'race', and ejection of players that do not agree with or conform to the standards and expectations of Old School D&D.

As for the idea that any species not listed in the PHB is not a Real D&D Species?  Sure.  Good luck with that.  Again - in the Forgotten Realms there may be only those nine species (spoilers: even the Realms have dozens of species now, not just nine, and frankly they always have), but we don't all play in the Forgotten Realms, do we?

Quote from IamSposta >>

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Quote from Yharim >>

 You suggestion for both ability scores an alignment is what I wanted from the beginning!  Just have a suggested alignment and suggested ability score improvement section to each race, and save on printing space!  Something like:

"Many Dragonborn are strong in both body and will.  Optional Suggested Ability Score Improvements:  +2 to strength and +1 to charisma, or vice versa"

and then something like:

"Elves have many different cultures across the land.  Optional Suggested Alignment:  Any Chaotic Alignment."

 
The issue with "suggested" scores is that they are not a "suggestion".

Tell me - would you ever allow a player to run a dragonborn that did not have +2STR and +1CHA, even if they had a fan-goddamn-tastic reason for it? 

Of course I would (and have). That's called "playing against type." But it's only possible if there is a "type" to play against.

 I would also allow this.  I don't even run campaigns in the forgotten realms, I just make the race's default stats the same as they are in the FR.  I mostly use the ability score improvements as written to give my players a good idea of what the race's strengths are, so they don't have to appraise the racial features of the race.  I would totally allow my players to pick ability score improvements against what the book says as written, but they like using default stats,  so they don't have to worry about even more customization.

I can definitely understand wanting more customization stat-wise, but not everyone wants that.  Some people just like the vibes of something and don't want to worry about the numbers too much(Not saying that's me, more my players.)

Quote from Yurei1453 >>

Used the word 'race' there very deliberately.  The folks who argue strongest for fixed racial ASIs and elimination of the Tasha's Cauldron rule are also - generally - the people arguing most strongly for retention of the word 'race', and ejection of players that do not agree with or conform to the standards and expectations of Old School D&D.

As for the idea that any species not listed in the PHB is not a Real D&D Species?  Sure.  Good luck with that.  Again - in the Forgotten Realms there may be only those nine species (spoilers: even the Realms have dozens of species now, not just nine, and frankly they always have), but we don't all play in the Forgotten Realms, do we?

 Yeah, the term 'race' or 'species' really doesn't matter to me.  I guess race is easier to say, but I'd be totally fine if it was changed to species.  It's even the case for the Star Wars D&D home-brew.  There are also way more than 9 species in forgotten realms, they just weren't in the player's handbook.  Look at Volo's!  (And for the record, I don't really get what that other guy was talking about, especially since Pokemon is an anime.)

Unfortunately, I do agree that the people who are arguing against Tasha's rule existing(Which, based on the current poll, is less than 9% of people who voted there), are pretty gatekeepery and don't want other people to play a certain way.

Quote from Yharim >>

(Which, based on the current poll, is less than 9% of people)

It's less than nine percent of people who are actually voting. I didn't vote because neither option reflected my opinion

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Yharim >>

(Which, based on the current poll, is less than 9% of people)

 

It's less than nine percent of people who are actually voting. I didn't vote because neither option reflected my opinion

 That's true.  I'll reword my comment.

The entire reason behind the new approach is that tying every species firmly and unchangeably to Forgotten Realms lore makes it increasingly difficult to ever play a game in anything but the Forgotten Realms.  If Wizards is going to start selling more and more books for settings other than the Forgotten Realms, then there needs to be more ability for base character blocks and stats to change with the setting they're in rather than trying to shoehorn Forgotten Realms characters into every conceivable setting.

As someone who has, in the past, argued against the Tasha's change becoming the default, this above from Yurei has actually made me consider it a different way. I can see Tasha's as the default if we still get world-specific lore than says "In the Forgotten Realms most Dwarfs are X" so that players know that is the only real option in their DM's FR campaign (unless they have a good reason otherwise), and if the PHB were rewritten to made Tasha's the default, it would be great to see a paragraph that tells players that in some worlds race/species X is mostly Y, and that you should check with your DM.

Yeah, I think my mind has been changed on this.

That said, I feel like Volo's and MToF should not be discontinued, but rather officially ruled as FR core lore, instead of default for all D&D.

Quote from OctoberGeek >>

The entire reason behind the new approach is that tying every species firmly and unchangeably to Forgotten Realms lore makes it increasingly difficult to ever play a game in anything but the Forgotten Realms.  If Wizards is going to start selling more and more books for settings other than the Forgotten Realms, then there needs to be more ability for base character blocks and stats to change with the setting they're in rather than trying to shoehorn Forgotten Realms characters into every conceivable setting.

As someone who has, in the past, argued against the Tasha's change becoming the default, this above from Yurei has actually made me consider it a different way. I can see Tasha's as the default if we still get world-specific lore than says "In the Forgotten Realms most Dwarfs are X" so that players know that is the only real option in their DM's FR campaign (unless they have a good reason otherwise), and if the PHB were rewritten to made Tasha's the default, it would be great to see a paragraph that tells players that in some worlds race/species X is mostly Y, and that you should check with your DM.

Yeah, I think my mind has been changed on this.

That said, I feel like Volo's and MToF should not be discontinued, but rather officially ruled as FR core lore, instead of default for all D&D.

 Awesome!  Yeah, I'd totally be open to everything in this comment.  So long as the original stuff is preserved, but made optional(and specifically for the forgotten realms), I'm good with it.

(I'm also glad people are being nicer to each other in this thread.  Keep the good vibes coming!)