If a Monk uses deflect missiles ability to catch a thrown Javelin of Returning by reducing its damage to zero, does he now claim the weapon as his, or does it magically return to the original owner's hand? If he catches it, and it stops the return to the original owner, but throws it back at the original owner as the second part of that reaction, will it return back to his hand?
I assume you are talking about the Artificer Infusion. It doesn't need to be attuned so I would put that squarely in your DM's hands.
The basic argument/ question is do you count as wielding the Javelin if you catch it. If yes it could go either way if no then it would go back to the original thrower.
If this came up at my table I'd be inclined to say that since the returning effect is immediately after the attack it would disappear from your hand before you could throw it back, That said Rule of cool it would be a great way for a character to gain a magic weapon.
A returning weapon immediately returns to the hand of the wielder after being used to make a ranged weapon attack. Therefore, it cannot be redirected by a monk. If the monk catches it, it disappears from their hand and returns to the attacker’s before they have a chance to do so; that’s what immediately means.
I personally think that the monk catching the Javelin of Returning and throwing it back would count as "wielding" the weapon, as they're making an attack with it. Specific beats general. In this specific scenario, I think the magic item's general rule of "returns immediately after being thrown" is overridden by the specifications of Deflect Missiles, but this is really up to DM interpretation.
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I personally think that the monk catching the Javelin of Returning and throwing it back would count as "wielding" the weapon, as they're making an attack with it. Specific beats general. In this specific scenario, I think the magic item's general rule of "returns immediately after being thrown" is overridden by the specifications of Deflect Missiles, but this is really up to DM interpretation.
If the monk were actually able to throw it, I'd probably agree. But it can't get that far. The weapon is gone before the monk has a chance to make an attack with it, because it returns "immediately" following the resolution of the initial attack. This isn't a specific vs. general thing, because there's actually no contradictory overlap between the features.
But Deflect Missiles lists the attack as being specifically part of the same reaction, so is it after, before, or simultaneous to the “return” of the weapon?
The return happens “immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack.”
The Reaction used for Deflect Missiles obviously interrupts that ranged attack, but is the Monk’s attack also part of that interruption, or after it? If after, then I agree that the javelin would have returned first. But I always imagine it as one fluid redirection, not a hard stop, followed by a wind-up and release. 🤔
But Deflect Missiles lists the attack as being specifically part of the same reaction, so is it after, before, or simultaneous to the “return” of the weapon?
The return happens “immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack.”
The Reaction used for Deflect Missiles obviously interrupts that ranged attack, but is the Monk’s attack also part of that interruption, or after it? If after, then I agree that the javelin would have returned first. But I always imagine it as one fluid redirection, not a hard stop, followed by a wind-up and release. 🤔
The reaction definitely doesn’t interrupt the ranged attack. The trigger is being hit. At that point, and definitely once damage is rolled, the attack is done. Deflect Missiles reduces damage that has necessarily already been rolled, so it occurs after the attack. Occurring after the attack doesn’t prevent it from interacting with the attack’s damage, because monotonic time isn’t an inviolable principle of D&D’s rules, haha.
But Deflect Missiles lists the attack as being specifically part of the same reaction, so is it after, before, or simultaneous to the “return” of the weapon?
The return happens “immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack.”
The Reaction used for Deflect Missiles obviously interrupts that ranged attack, but is the Monk’s attack also part of that interruption, or after it? If after, then I agree that the javelin would have returned first. But I always imagine it as one fluid redirection, not a hard stop, followed by a wind-up and release. 🤔
The reaction definitely doesn’t interrupt the ranged attack. The trigger is being hit. At that point, and definitely once damage is rolled, the attack is done. Deflect Missiles reduces damage that has necessarily already been rolled, so it occurs after the attack. Occurring after the attack doesn’t prevent it from interacting with the attack’s damage, because monotonic time isn’t an inviolable principle of D&D’s rules, haha.
I personally think that the monk catching the Javelin of Returning and throwing it back would count as "wielding" the weapon, as they're making an attack with it. Specific beats general. In this specific scenario, I think the magic item's general rule of "returns immediately after being thrown" is overridden by the specifications of Deflect Missiles, but this is really up to DM interpretation.
If the monk were actually able to throw it, I'd probably agree. But it can't get that far. The weapon is gone before the monk has a chance to make an attack with it, because it returns "immediately" following the resolution of the initial attack. This isn't a specific vs. general thing, because there's actually no contradictory overlap between the features.
I can understand that, but I would argue that if a feature reduces the damage of an attack, it interrupts it, as the attack hasn't been completed until all the damage is dealt. If the attack isn't completed until the damage is dealt, and the monk's reaction is used specifically to reduce the damage, I believe the monk would actually interrupt the attack with Deflect Missiles.
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I personally think that the monk catching the Javelin of Returning and throwing it back would count as "wielding" the weapon, as they're making an attack with it. Specific beats general. In this specific scenario, I think the magic item's general rule of "returns immediately after being thrown" is overridden by the specifications of Deflect Missiles, but this is really up to DM interpretation.
If the monk were actually able to throw it, I'd probably agree. But it can't get that far. The weapon is gone before the monk has a chance to make an attack with it, because it returns "immediately" following the resolution of the initial attack. This isn't a specific vs. general thing, because there's actually no contradictory overlap between the features.
I can understand that, but I would argue that if a feature reduces the damage of an attack, it interrupts it, as the attack hasn't been completed until all the damage is dealt. If the attack isn't completed until the damage is dealt, and the monk's reaction is used specifically to reduce the damage, I believe the monk would actually interrupt the attack with Deflect Missiles.
That would be in contradiction of the rules for making attacks. Only the damage roll is part of resolving an attack. Actually dealing the damage, including applying resistance, vulnerability, or other damage-altering effects (such as Deflect Missile) is not part of the attack itself and occurs afterward.
Well, WotC has ruled the opposite in the last Sage Advice Compendium:
[NEW]If a character hits a monk with a dwarven thrower and the monk uses Deflect Missiles, does the hammer return to the attacker first, or can the monk catch it? The monk can catch it.
And since the Dwarven Thrower uses the exact same wording, the same ruling should apply to both it, and a Weapon of Returning:
Dwarven Thrower
Weapon (warhammer), very rare (requires attunement by a Dwarf)
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. It has the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. When you hit with a ranged attack using this weapon, it deals an extra 1d8 damage or, if the target is a giant, 2d8 damage. Immediately after the attack, the weapon flies back to your hand.
Well, that solves it, then. I do feel that this is the cooler, more cinematic outcome, too. The monk catches a flung hammer mid-air, doing a full 360 turn, chucking it back at the person who threw it at them (unfortunately it wouldn't come back to the monk, but a Returning Weapon would).
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That does, however, produce a follow up question. Now that both the original owner and the Monk have thrown this returning weapon... who does it return to after it has finally stopped being used? I mean, presumably it is lodged in the prior owner from the Deflect Missile counter-attack. But does it stay there? Or does it return to their hand after it comes to rest? Or does it now return to the Monk, since they were the one to make the most recent attack?
(Perhaps important to know, the attack provided by Deflect Missile is specifically referred to as an attack, but not the Attack action -- it is part of the reaction. So it's more in-line with the weapon attack baked into Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, rather than the Attack action.)
That does, however, produce a follow up question. Now that both the original owner and the Monk have thrown this returning weapon... who does it return to after it has finally stopped being used? I mean, presumably it is lodged in the prior owner from the Deflect Missile counter-attack. But does it stay there? Or does it return to their hand after it comes to rest? Or does it now return to the Monk, since they were the one to make the most recent attack?
(Perhaps important to know, the attack provided by Deflect Missile is specifically referred to as an attack, but not the Attack action -- it is part of the reaction. So it's more in-line with the weapon attack baked into Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, rather than the Attack action.)
I would say the returning ability is tied to whoever the weapon is attuned to.
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If a Monk uses deflect missiles ability to catch a thrown Javelin of Returning by reducing its damage to zero, does he now claim the weapon as his, or does it magically return to the original owner's hand? If he catches it, and it stops the return to the original owner, but throws it back at the original owner as the second part of that reaction, will it return back to his hand?
I assume you are talking about the Artificer Infusion. It doesn't need to be attuned so I would put that squarely in your DM's hands.
The basic argument/ question is do you count as wielding the Javelin if you catch it. If yes it could go either way if no then it would go back to the original thrower.
If this came up at my table I'd be inclined to say that since the returning effect is immediately after the attack it would disappear from your hand before you could throw it back, That said Rule of cool it would be a great way for a character to gain a magic weapon.
A returning weapon immediately returns to the hand of the wielder after being used to make a ranged weapon attack. Therefore, it cannot be redirected by a monk. If the monk catches it, it disappears from their hand and returns to the attacker’s before they have a chance to do so; that’s what immediately means.
I personally think that the monk catching the Javelin of Returning and throwing it back would count as "wielding" the weapon, as they're making an attack with it. Specific beats general. In this specific scenario, I think the magic item's general rule of "returns immediately after being thrown" is overridden by the specifications of Deflect Missiles, but this is really up to DM interpretation.
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If the monk were actually able to throw it, I'd probably agree. But it can't get that far. The weapon is gone before the monk has a chance to make an attack with it, because it returns "immediately" following the resolution of the initial attack. This isn't a specific vs. general thing, because there's actually no contradictory overlap between the features.
But Deflect Missiles lists the attack as being specifically part of the same reaction, so is it after, before, or simultaneous to the “return” of the weapon?
The return happens “immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack.”
The Reaction used for Deflect Missiles obviously interrupts that ranged attack, but is the Monk’s attack also part of that interruption, or after it? If after, then I agree that the javelin would have returned first. But I always imagine it as one fluid redirection, not a hard stop, followed by a wind-up and release. 🤔
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The reaction definitely doesn’t interrupt the ranged attack. The trigger is being hit. At that point, and definitely once damage is rolled, the attack is done. Deflect Missiles reduces damage that has necessarily already been rolled, so it occurs after the attack. Occurring after the attack doesn’t prevent it from interacting with the attack’s damage, because monotonic time isn’t an inviolable principle of D&D’s rules, haha.
That makes sense.
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I can understand that, but I would argue that if a feature reduces the damage of an attack, it interrupts it, as the attack hasn't been completed until all the damage is dealt. If the attack isn't completed until the damage is dealt, and the monk's reaction is used specifically to reduce the damage, I believe the monk would actually interrupt the attack with Deflect Missiles.
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That would be in contradiction of the rules for making attacks. Only the damage roll is part of resolving an attack. Actually dealing the damage, including applying resistance, vulnerability, or other damage-altering effects (such as Deflect Missile) is not part of the attack itself and occurs afterward.
Okay, you've convinced me. I can see that now. A monk doesn't interrupt the attack, which causes the monk to not be able to catch a returning weapon.
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Well, WotC has ruled the opposite in the last Sage Advice Compendium:
And since the Dwarven Thrower uses the exact same wording, the same ruling should apply to both it, and a Weapon of Returning:
Dwarven Thrower
You gain a +3 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon. It has the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. When you hit with a ranged attack using this weapon, it deals an extra 1d8 damage or, if the target is a giant, 2d8 damage. Immediately after the attack, the weapon flies back to your hand.
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Well, that solves it, then. I do feel that this is the cooler, more cinematic outcome, too. The monk catches a flung hammer mid-air, doing a full 360 turn, chucking it back at the person who threw it at them (unfortunately it wouldn't come back to the monk, but a Returning Weapon would).
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That does, however, produce a follow up question. Now that both the original owner and the Monk have thrown this returning weapon... who does it return to after it has finally stopped being used? I mean, presumably it is lodged in the prior owner from the Deflect Missile counter-attack. But does it stay there? Or does it return to their hand after it comes to rest? Or does it now return to the Monk, since they were the one to make the most recent attack?
(Perhaps important to know, the attack provided by Deflect Missile is specifically referred to as an attack, but not the Attack action -- it is part of the reaction. So it's more in-line with the weapon attack baked into Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade, rather than the Attack action.)
I would say the returning ability is tied to whoever the weapon is attuned to.
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