So it would not be controversial to state that INT is undervalued in 5e, and is pretty much a safe dump stat for every class except the Wizard (or a couple of subclasses e.g. Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight).

It would also be uncontroversial to state that DEX (a.k.a. the "God" stat) is overvalued in 5e, and just about any class benefits from higher DEX (some more than others).

Suppose that in the next update to the core rules (5.5e or 6e, whatever that may be) there was a chance to rebalance the six stats.

It seems to me that there is no reason to tie Initiative to DEX. INT could just as easily represent a character's "mental reflexes." (Indeed, there is precedent to this from 4e). This could be one change towards rebalancing the six stats.

What change would you make to rebalance the stats in 5e?

Another idea inspired by previous editions might be to grant additional languages/skill/tool proficiencies based on a high INT score (e.g. bonus proficiencies equal to half your natural INT modifier). Though a potential drawback is that this adds some mechanical complexity to the game.

So this is table dependant.  Much like a lot of these, so I'm going to present that and then answer your question.  

First, I don't think anyone would disagree that DEX/CON are just over valued, but at the same time there comes a point with how do you detangle those stats without creating other imbalance issues.  The joke of Low Con characters are just self solving problem is true, and but from a game balance standpoint I would like to see more with CON done to represent some other things, like an influence of carrying capacity or potentially a very small damage reduction for high CON characters.

I don't think the goal should be to get DEX away from what it is, because the reality is all the things associated with DEX make sense.  It's finding a way to place more value on the other stats to get them somewhat near what DEX currently is.   How would you accomplish that though?  A more even distribution on spell saving throws would be my start.  More subclasses getting some sort of bonus to INIT based on their stat would be a second place.  Finally, adding about 5-7 more skills to the skill pool and giving other classes variety on their skill checks.  Alternatively to the final point, using the optional rule of not using standard ability scores for checks, although in my experience that seems to give DEX more options not less.

At my tables, a lot of information about how monsters/the world works comes through Int checks.  If you don't have an int skill trained, nine times out of ten you can't roll specific lore checks.  This places a lot of value on the bard/wizard/rogue or random class with an int skill.  

The following table might be slightly off, but its my understanding that when it comes to spells, the following are the distribution of the spells associated saving throw.  Int does NOT have a lot of saves.

That said, INT saves are AWFUL.  A character losing an int save typically means they're about to get wrecked or a good penalty.  Even though there aren't a lot of Strength saves, typically a lot of high end monsters(not big bad npc types, but actual monsters) have high str stats, so you typically wouldn't want to cast that.  Charisma doesn't have a lot of saves later on, and now with a lot of races per the new book getting Fey Ancestry and advantage on charm effects, Charisma as a whole just got a whole lot weaker in terms of saving throws.

You also have to worry about what Wizard is to the game, as the major INT class.  Wizard has typically been the go to class for any D&D game.  Keep the wizard alive till level 5, and they'll keep you alive for the rest of the game.  Buffing INT means making the widely regarded, albeit not my personal opinion of strongest class even stronger.  Things that keep INT as a better stat are things that have been slowly phased out of the game but shouldn't be, imo.  More skill profs, more languages known, or simply a smarter character.  Again though, this would benefit a class that already can do a lot via their magics.

It's interesting for sure.  I don't think there is a right answer in 5e.  To amend one thing inherently changes something else.  

I agree that the Wizard (and full spell casters in general) have a lot of options in Tiers 3 and 4 that martials don't. But most campaigns (and most published material) take place in Tiers 1 and 2 where martials tend to shine. So I don't have as much of a problem with buffing INT if it means buffing Wizards.

I like the idea of more subclasses having additional bonuses to Initiative. Or maybe there could be a half-feat that lets you use INT (or WIS) instead of DEX for Initiative? (In fact for my next game, I'll probably have a go at brewing one).

Edit: Actually you could probably just add the following text to the Keen Mind feat:

• You can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Dexterity modifier when rolling for Initiative.

Then it might actually be worth taking.

Part of the problem is that somethings are given to Wisdom that are quite suited to Intelligence, like Insight. It's just not often that you use Intelligence for anything other than as a spellcasting ability. It happens, but its skills are so much more finely divided than Wisdom's that each one is.rarely used, and Intelligence overall is not used as often to begin with. It feels like they felt that Wisdom had two many skills and so split it up into Wisdom and Intellgence and then gave Intelligence the second pick of skills. I think Insight and Medicine should be Intelligence. If they want to balance numbers (given that Perception is the most used skill in the game by a country mile, I don't feel that way, but some might), you can give Wisdom Nature and Religion, which I think are closer to Wisdom than Insight and Medicine.

NB: Artificers use Intelligence as their spellcasting ability as well.

Quote from Linklite >>

Part of the problem is that somethings are given to Wisdom that are quite suited to Intelligence, like Insight. It's just not often that you use Intelligence for anything other than as a spellcasting ability. It happens, but its skills are so much more finely divided than Wisdom's that each one is.rarely used, and Intelligence overall is not used as often to begin with. It feels like they felt that Wisdom had two many skills and so split it up into Wisdom and Intellgence and then gave Intelligence the second pick of skills. I think Insight and Medicine should be Intelligence. If they want to balance numbers (given that Perception is the most used skill in the game by a country mile, I don't feel that way, but some might), you can give Wisdom Nature and Religion, which I think are closer to Wisdom than Insight and Medicine.

NB: Artificers use Intelligence as their spellcasting ability as well.

 
Technically you can always use the variant rule in the PHB that decouples the skill from the stats, so making an Intelligence+Insight check is within the rules. But yes, some of the default stat assignments for INT/WIS seem a bit arbitrary and could easily go the other way.

Yes, I forgot about artificers!

What is wis and what is int is a bit of a grey area, but I think of insight as being reading a creatures intentions or other things about them. IRL herd animals are good at this, for example weaker members of the pack will know when or how much stronger members will allow them to eat, or when they need to keep away from the alpha. This is despite low int, though I can see someone being able to make a case as to why their intelligence is useful for incite.

I see int as mostly book knowledge but this can be incredibly useful. Especially if the players are not metagaming. High intelligence creatures know it is good to attack zombies with radiant energy while ghouls are immune to poison and if going to a banshee they will not be able to sneak up on her and she has a wail that can knock you unconcious.Low intelligence creatures do not know that (the dm may allow some or all characters to roll nature/arcana/religion to see if they know. Investigation is also an extremely important skill

In more general terms yes dex is the most important stat, Wisdom is also very useful.  You need a face so one person with high charisma, a book so one person with high int. Every has con as a secondary or tertiary stat (rarely if ever primary).

I actually think  strength is the stat of least use. Martials often go dex even if they can wear heavy armor, while strength saves are more common than than cha or int the impact of fail is usually much less so I think strength is the least important saving throw. The only ability that uses str is athletics and everyone who dumps str asks and usually get the ability to use acrobatics instead.  For strength there is an easy fix which reverses the problem. Variant encumbrance mean many builds that dump str would be encumbered with there starting equipment. Throw in some heavy loot (1000 copper pieces or a vase worth 300gp but weighing 50lb is quite common in modules) and restrict access to bags of holding and everyone will be putting at least 12 or 14 in str.

All of what Spideycloned said above. Intelligence can be a massively useful stat. If I play a caster the Int save spells are typically the first I look at because they're reliable and have seriously powerful effects. There's nothing stopping DMs from putting a few more Int-attackers in their campaign roster. Knowledge checks can be very impactful, though players have to remember to try them (I think this gets compounded by many players not being too eager to pick knowledge-based proficiencies over the more popular mainstays), and so can Investigation checks. And the Wizard and Artificer classes are among the stronger classes in the game, particularly Wizard. Int being strong is a matter of wanting it to be as much as anything else.

Bottom line is though that point buy players who are looking for a dump stat will choose one, and players with a low attribute from rolling or using the standard array have no choice but to find a spot for that below-average one (or two). It often being the same one isn't necessarily something we should want to avoid, and Str and Cha are arguably getting picked quite often as well. Personally I quite enjoy playing the one character that isn't weak in the same stat as everybody else too - pretty much guaranteed spotlight every now and then, if the DM isn't being an ass about it.

Quote from pangurjan >>

All of what Spideycloned said above. Intelligence can be a massively useful stat. If I play a caster the Int save spells are typically the first I look at because they're reliable and have seriously powerful effects. There's nothing stopping DMs from putting a few more Int-attackers in their campaign roster. Knowledge checks can be very impactful, though players have to remember to try them (I think this gets compounded by many players not being too eager to pick knowledge-based proficiencies over the more popular mainstays), and so can Investigation checks. And the Wizard and Artificer classes are among the stronger classes in the game, particularly Wizard. Int being strong is a matter of wanting it to be as much as anything else.

Bottom line is though that point buy players who are looking for a dump stat will choose one, and players with a low attribute from rolling or using the standard array have no choice but to find a spot for that below-average one (or two). It often being the same one isn't necessarily something we should want to avoid, and Str and Cha are arguably getting picked quite often as well. Personally I quite enjoy playing the one character that isn't weak in the same stat as everybody else too - pretty much guaranteed spotlight every now and then, if the DM isn't being an ass about it.

 
I was not disputing that INT can be useful in the right context, rather stating that when you take into account the whole game that it is relatively weak compared to DEX. Single class casters in addition to their spellcasting stat desperately want both  DEX and CON to increase survivability. But a martial can more or less get away with DEX and CON (STR and CON is also viable if you have heavy armour).

As I mentioned above, Tiers I and II are where most play happens and in this context I still argue that INT could do with a buff and being able to use it for Initiative would not be unbalanced.

From a "lore" perspective I feel this would represent someone who is mentally quick being able to correspondingly act quickly, without necessarily having a high DEX (which is physical agility after all).

Dumping WIS, DEX, or CON is generally a bad idea for most characters, because saves.

Dumping CHA means you can't really do the social thing, which is okay if your party has a face already I guess.

Dumping STR is probably safe for non-martials or DEX-based martials (unless you use encumbrance rules). So yeah, maybe STR does need some love.

Dumping INT, well I've already said it above. You get the idea.

I've run or played four published adventures so far, and they'v only provided an actually useful Int Skill check twice times, I think? The vast majority only provide lore trivia (ok, I'm not knocking that and it is interesting, but we're focusing on mechanical advantages at the moment). I think three times an Int check has had mechanical implications. Once it allowed the party to find a hidden passageway...which lead to a king's chambers, which had an easily dodiscoverable route to it anyway and so just lead to a rather awkward conversation with the king. Another time, it allowed the party to realise that if they took out the person performing a ritual, the god-statue that they were awakening would not awaken. Finally, there was a third one where because I failed the Int check, I didn't notice the bait for a trap and so actually Int would have made things worse.

Maybe homebrews are different, the tiers of play or just the adventures we've run, but Int skills haven't played much of a role. Even the ones that actually were mechanically significant, two didn't give anything that the party genuinely benefitted from and the third was a negative anyway. If I'm playing an Int Caster, obviously I'll focus on it and obviously it depends on what the rest of the party are doing, but Dex and Con are going to be higher priorities while Wis and Cha will be of interest to help the party, depending on how many of the party are focusing on them. Str is on the same level as Int - nice to have for certain occasions and if you're character relies upon it, it's obviously essential,  but at least one is going to be a dump stat and the other depends on how well you rolled.

The only reason Int is undervalued is because DMs don’t use it. For example, Medicine may be a Wis skill to use, but an Intelligence (Medicine) check could be used to determine many things including how wounded an enemy might be. An Int thieves' tools could be used for assessing a lock/trap. (Heck, Int and any tool can be used to assess anything relevant to that tool.) Whenever players in campaigns I DM want to know if their PC remembers anything I always call for a History check.

IMO, Intelligence is one of the least dumpable of the 6 Ability scores.

Quote from Linklite>>

I've run or played four published adventures so far….

There’s the source of the issue. The published adventures are (at best) pale shadows of what D&D can really be.

Quote from Lhytning >>

1) Single class casters in addition to their spellcasting stat desperately want both  DEX and CON to increase survivability. But a martial can more or less get away with DEX and CON (STR and CON is also viable if you have heavy armour).

2) From a "lore" perspective I feel this would represent someone who is mentally quick being able to correspondingly act quickly, without necessarily having a high DEX (which is physical agility after all).

3) Dumping WIS, DEX, or CON is generally a bad idea for most characters, because saves.

1) If by single class casters you mean wizards and sorcerers, possibly. The others tend to be better off than you suggest. And wizards and sorcerers should be using spells. That's what they're spellcasters for. 

2) Mental reflexes are more of a Wis thing, I'd say.

3) Dex saves are overrated. There, I said it. The characters taking them are most of the time the characters designed to risk them, either because they're Dex-based and/or have ways of dealing with traps and/or have Evasion, or because they're built to soak damage. Wizards should be worried about other saves just as much or more.

Quote from Linklite >>

... because I failed the Int check, I didn't notice the bait for a trap and so actually Int would have made things worse.

As an aside, what terrible trap design makes bait hard to notice? Getting noticed is the whole point of bait. 

I was told that in earlier editions, any "magic user" needed a minimum score in their INT to be able to actually be in the "magic user" class, as well as for the priest or such class.

I personally think this makes sense, so maybe require that all PCs require a 13 intelligence or higher to be a casting class (other than sorcerer)?

Also, as Sposta said, INT is really seen as "dumpable" because the DM's don't use it enough and don't have it count for anything. I will die on the hill that medicine should be an INT skill, not a WIS skill. DM's also don't use alternate ability score abilities checks enough. Whenever my players want to find someone on the street to assist them with something, it's a Charisma (Investigation) check. I prefer having thieves' tools be rolled with intelligence rather than dexterity, just because honestly almost all tools should be rolled with INT most of the time/be presumed to be an INT roll.

Stop asking for perception checks when people are searching a room. That's what investigation is for. Perception is just for glancing around the room, sniffing the air, eavesdropping with your ear to the door, etc. Not for searching a room, if you want to get your hands dirty, physically touch stuff, move stuff around, that's investigation. I always make this distinction and it, IMO, is important. It stops perception from being the skill that everyone takes and everyone has because of course everyone needs high perception and investigation is never used.

WotC wanted the warlock to be an INT caster, but playtest showed that people wanted it to stay a CHA caster like in previous editions (iirc), so you can change the Warlock to be an INT caster instead of a CHA one (changing all the places where it says "Charisma Modifier" to "Intelligence Modifier" goes without saying).

I won't post it here (to avoid being one of those people that just answers "look at my homebrew!" to any D&D question) but I am making a little system that essentially gives all martials battlemaster maneuver-esque abilities that requires a high INT to get the most out of the system. Maybe do something that a player gets X amount of special resources equal to their INT mod like some inspiration dice, plot points, extra proficiencies they can choose at the beginning of the campaign, etc.

To avoid this just turning it into a thing where wizards just get more buffs, I suggest incorporating more INT checks to be your first move than to add more mechanical bonuses for INT of PC's tho.

Quote from pangurjan >>

Quote from Lhytning >>

1) Single class casters in addition to their spellcasting stat desperately want both  DEX and CON to increase survivability. But a martial can more or less get away with DEX and CON (STR and CON is also viable if you have heavy armour).

2) From a "lore" perspective I feel this would represent someone who is mentally quick being able to correspondingly act quickly, without necessarily having a high DEX (which is physical agility after all).

3) Dumping WIS, DEX, or CON is generally a bad idea for most characters, because saves.

1) If by single class casters you mean wizards and sorcerers, possibly. The others tend to be better off than you suggest. And wizards and sorcerers should be using spells. That's what they're spellcasters for. 

2) Mental reflexes are more of a Wis thing, I'd say.

3) Dex saves are overrated. There, I said it. The characters taking them are most of the time the characters designed to risk them, either because they're Dex-based and/or have ways of dealing with traps and/or have Evasion, or because they're built to soak damage. Wizards should be worried about other saves just as much or more.

 
1) Yes, absolutely wizards and sorcerers should be using spells. But you still need to survive levels 1-4 without getting dead before the spell power level curve starts working in your favour.

2) It's arguable. If you're talking about intuition then that would probably be slanted towards Wis. But Wis doesn't need a buff IMO. There's enough of a blurred line that I think it would be plausible to have Int represent mental quickness. Plus there's the precedent of Int for initiative from 4e.

3) Probably. But Dex has so much more going for it than just saves. You have AC and Initiative as well, plus handy skills like Stealth. And also finesse/ranged weapons. Dex can do just about everything on the right build.

Think about any fantasy novel you've read where there were combat focused spellcasters. Why should they be reacting more slowly by default than their physical combat brethren? If anything, I would argue that having a sharp mind could let you react faster than a brute force fighter because you notice all the "little things" that might give you a hint that things are about to get real.

(Yes, I know, this could be an argument for using Wis but like I said, I think Wis already has plenty of love system mechanics-wise).

Quote from Lycaon1765p >>

I was told that in earlier editions, any "magic user" needed a minimum score in their INT to be able to actually be in the "magic user" class, as well as for the priest or such class.

I personally think this makes sense, so maybe require that all PCs require a 13 intelligence or higher to be a casting class (other than sorcerer)?

Also, as Sposta said, INT is really seen as "dumpable" because the DM's don't use it enough and don't have it count for anything. I will die on the hill that medicine should be an INT skill, not a WIS skill. DM's also don't use alternate ability score abilities checks enough. Whenever my players want to find someone on the street to assist them with something, it's a Charisma (Investigation) check. I prefer having thieves' tools be rolled with intelligence rather than dexterity, just because honestly almost all tools should be rolled with INT most of the time/be presumed to be an INT roll.

Stop asking for perception checks when people are searching a room. That's what investigation is for. Perception is just for glancing around the room, sniffing the air, eavesdropping with your ear to the door, etc. Not for searching a room, if you want to get your hands dirty, physically touch stuff, move stuff around, that's investigation. I always make this distinction and it, IMO, is important. It stops perception from being the skill that everyone takes and everyone has because of course everyone needs high perception and investigation is never used.

WotC wanted the warlock to be an INT caster, but playtest showed that people wanted it to stay a CHA caster like in previous editions (iirc), so you can change the Warlock to be an INT caster instead of a CHA one (changing all the places where it says "Charisma Modifier" to "Intelligence Modifier" goes without saying).

I won't post it here (to avoid being one of those people that just answers "look at my homebrew!" to any D&D question) but I am making a little system that essentially gives all martials battlemaster maneuver-esque abilities that requires a high INT to get the most out of the system. Maybe do something that a player gets X amount of special resources equal to their INT mod like some inspiration dice, plot points, extra proficiencies they can choose at the beginning of the campaign, etc.

To avoid this just turning it into a thing where wizards just get more buffs, I suggest incorporating more INT checks to be your first move than to add more mechanical bonuses for INT of PC's tho.

 
Personally I use the alternate ability score checks all the time. To the point that I'm kind of annoyed that there is even a default ability for each skill because of the prejudices that it creates. IMO skills should be decoupled from stats by default, with the pairings decided by the DM as the situation calls. The PHB could provide handy examples of appropriate pairings as guidance.

I agree with what you said about Perception vs Investigation. I could say more but that's a whole 'nother thread (literally).

The warlock thing just supports the argument that Int is undervalued IMO.

It's not just about buffing INT, like I said above I think really that there are arguments that Initiative could just as easily be based on mental quickness rather than physical reflexes.

"Mental reflexes" are attached to sensory acuity ... that sort of alertness is tied to perception which is governed by WIS.

That said, College of War Magic grants INT bonus to initiative so the idea isn't completely mechanically bonkers, though not looking at the text right now but I think the feature is predicated on presuming the War Magicians arcane studies focus on the flow of battle so basically its an applied strategic mindset.  Some real world combatants do apply a "chess" or even "game theory" like approach to physical violence, but they're a minority and most chess grandmasters and game theorists would not claim to the capacity to translate their cerebral mastermindfulness kinetically (outside speed chess and the like).

I guess what I'm saying there is, while I'm not embracing the notion, but in considering it I'd be more likely to accept WIS an alt to initiative instead of DEX, but for INT to get the nod there'd need to be be something like a College of War Magic class feature granting it to them (sort of like how CHR can be applied to weapons with Warlocks).  

As organized in terms of skill mapping and class features, INT is the 'book smarts' or academic stat.  Other forms of intelligence outside of wrote learning are better exhibited through WIS and CHR.  It's why whenever I have a new player say they want their character to be "smart," and devoting points or high rolls to INT I always say, "What do you mean by smart?" and explain how the skills work and what INT actually get them.  Most players actually want to be clever and witty, so....   

So how to make INT have greater impact in game beyond being essential for playing a Wizard?  My high INT characters in my games tend to be the default keepers of game lore and can provide background.  But that usually leads to basically "Character says [and DM provides exposition]."  But DMs can also lean on the INT characters as sort of being the groups in game lore "bible."  So if the players don't remember something key, and the high INT character is there, well, it's good to have that charcter around.

Arcana, history and religion can be really useful if your game has "investigative" time. Cartography tools, and a lot of tools could lean into INT, and would likely be even more instrumental, so to speak, if the game had a real fabrication/engineering system as opposed to building a more Tony Stark than MacGuyver class and isolating "innovation" to the Artificer (though the class is really more a recipe collector than innovator but that's another discussion about the limits of the game).  I believe XGtE give high INT an advantage on tool training, language acquistion and maybe skill training.  I'm toying with layering what proficiency is in my campaign, it's planar hopping and they will come across technological and beast driven modes of transport the party has never encountered.  I think for these "alien" conveyances and other technologies, I might actually impose either a negative mod or maybe even disadvantage unless a character has oriented themselves to the technology (think the Infernal War Machines in Averus or that crab mech thing).  High INT could lead to greater acquisition rates or time to learn.

Like I think Sposta or another poster pointed out INT isn't useless outside Wizards, it's just neglected by DMs (because, yes, the game itself doesn't give a lot of attention to it either) but it can be a useful instrument in game.

Quote from Lhytning >>

Quote from pangurjan >>

All of what Spideycloned said above. Intelligence can be a massively useful stat. If I play a caster the Int save spells are typically the first I look at because they're reliable and have seriously powerful effects. There's nothing stopping DMs from putting a few more Int-attackers in their campaign roster. Knowledge checks can be very impactful, though players have to remember to try them (I think this gets compounded by many players not being too eager to pick knowledge-based proficiencies over the more popular mainstays), and so can Investigation checks. And the Wizard and Artificer classes are among the stronger classes in the game, particularly Wizard. Int being strong is a matter of wanting it to be as much as anything else.

Bottom line is though that point buy players who are looking for a dump stat will choose one, and players with a low attribute from rolling or using the standard array have no choice but to find a spot for that below-average one (or two). It often being the same one isn't necessarily something we should want to avoid, and Str and Cha are arguably getting picked quite often as well. Personally I quite enjoy playing the one character that isn't weak in the same stat as everybody else too - pretty much guaranteed spotlight every now and then, if the DM isn't being an ass about it.

 

Dumping WIS, DEX, or CON is generally a bad idea for most characters, because saves.

Dumping CHA means you can't really do the social thing, which is okay if your party has a face already I guess.

Dumping STR is probably safe for non-martials or DEX-based martials (unless you use encumbrance rules). So yeah, maybe STR does need some love.

Dumping INT, well I've already said it above. You get the idea.

 I think you can run pretty right if your character have higuer scores on INT and WIS, while the other remains low. The only important part there is, if the CHA score is low or under 9, then it's up to you if you wanna apply an extra Flaw ( like if your character had a mania against the bugs, spiders, or if it have a phobia against the shadows ).

STR needs some love if your character is a Tanker or even a Puck-a-Puncher weebo. 

DEX I think it's more important for either having a nice movement boost, a nice AC booster, and also some sneakity-sneak actions. Since D&D dosen't put effort in adding a new attack per round if the DEX is higher than 15, then I hope some changes could be added/repaired ¿¿ in further core-books ?? *blink-blink.

Quote from pangurjan >>

Quote from Linklite >>

... because I failed the Int check, I didn't notice the bait for a trap and so actually Int would have made things worse.

As an aside, what terrible trap design makes bait hard to notice? Getting noticed is the whole point of bait. 

 Eh, bait isn't the ideal word. It was a gizmo that I noticed and started playing with. To solve it, I had to do an intelligence check, and failed. Deciding that my character wouldn't stick with it, I abandoned it. I asked the DM about it later, and turns out that it was a trap of some kind. I think the idea was that you'd notice the gizmo, solve it and it blows up or whatever (I can't remember what the effect was). I put it down to being a part of the lore/world building that it was "intended" for someone else.