Im trying to hammer out an idea for a primal path geared toward shoving. This is pretty much back of the napkin scribbling, so I apologize in advance but thank you as well.
Thematically, it's based of the astral sea, or cosmic powers. And youre like a meteor or comet that has the strength to push or knock people down. I didn't want to go the route of gravity or comet strikes for more damage, dunno why. Shoving kinda intrigues me and I just thought a subclass around it could be interesting as if you were a controlling, shooting star.
The core mechanic is shove gaining added , possibly random benefits. Like removing reactions for x time, the clash of the shove causing a flash of light to blind, or even simply the shove gaining both effects, or gaining enhanced default effects.
I'd have to add to it, but I was wondering if having a wild magic esque random table with enough options could make it cool. I'd probably have to get shove to be used as a bonus action to not take away from barbs attacks or something. Barb's wanna hit stuff.
The added ideas is to either allow the shoving of huge creatures with a restriction or penalty.
And or
Expend all movement and move half the amount expended to shove all creatures within a line, while also randomly utilizing the table. Which gets the shooting star feel.
Im sorry if it seems dumb or I'm not super specific on wording but I just wanted to see if it's even remotely interesting to anyone or is there a chance this could be fun. If it was, I'd happily write it up.
I would stay away from “random” buffs to shove actions. For a character, especially a Barbarian to sacrifice an attack to make a shove they have to know they can rely on the outcome to do what they intend or else it will almost always be more beneficial to skip the shove and go for the attack. Even granting a Shove as a bonus action puts it in competition with things like Rage and the ever popular PAM bonus attack. If it were me, I would be looking for inspiration more from Battle Master Maneuvers or even Metamagic than Wild Magic. In fact, a series of points equal to half Barbarian level (rounded down), that refresh on a short rest, and could be spent on Metamagicesque shove enhancements would be pretty cool IMO. Just some food for thought.
Ahh.. I know attacking is always better. But thats something I'm hoping to break or at least give another perspective on. Sure PAM is always better to take, but I'm really hoping to give another option in bonus action then just 'hit'. I have really big issues on PAM being such an end all to class design. I know it's good, but you get some folks who complain about how martial just attack. But when you try to change the mold, they reply they could just attack. This isn't what you're doing, but its a knee jerk reaction some have had in different spaces already. It's an issue with how things like PAM, GWM and Sentinel has just dominated how class design is perceived, and it kinda sucks because they're too good. But that's a different discussion altogether.
As for bonus action rage competing for the bonus action shove,. Maybe the ability to bonus action shove would be the rage 'ability'. Like maybe, as you rage and as a bonus action there after, you can shove. I don't see that's a problem of any kind.
Less random and more controlled with finite resources? Okay, that's seems like a possibility. Whether it be like metamagic to alter/buff the shove with points, or even adding dies similar to superiority dice like battle master. If we go dice route, we can say the shove does damage up to the roll as you utilize the additional 'maneuver'. That'll give the extra damage that martial tend to yearn for, and maybe ribbon a control type mechanic.
I guess I aimed at random initially because I could theoretically get away with more wacky or stronger effects if it was random. That, and I wouldn't have to deal with a finite amount of uses, or charges on something that can only be used during rage anyway. Though short resting to get points back is reasonable, and allowing x amount of usage of additive benefits to shove where you already have advantage while raging is a valid perspective.
Thank you for your insight and thoughts on this by the way. I like hashing these things out.
Sure thing. I totally get where you’re coming from in your attempt to make a Shove as a viable alternative to just attacking. That’s why I recommended against it being random, to keep it viable. Some ideas off the top of my head are:
Spend 1 point to add an additional 5 feet of distance to the Shove. (So either shove them 10 feet or shove them 5 feet and prone.) Spend 2 points to instead add an additional 10 feet of distance to the Shove.
Spend 1 point to affect 2 creatures as part of the same Shove. Spend 2 points to shove all creatures within 5 feet of you.
Spend 1 point to Shove as a bonus action. Spend 2 points to Shove in lieu of an Opportunity Attack.
Spend 1 point to add 1d6 force damage to the Shove. Spend 2 points to add 1d12 force damage to the Shove.
Whenever you Shove a creature Prone you can spend 1 point to also make the target grappled as part of the same Shove action, or spend 2 points to make the target Incapacitated until the start of your next turn as part of the same Shove action.
I’m paring them under the assumption that they would get two of these options to start and add an additional option at the various higher subclass levels for a total of five “metashove” options (ten special ways to use a Shove since each option would grant a pair of uses). Obviously you would need to come up with a few more options to add to the list. But that’s about where I would start at any rate.
You could add more powerful effects if you want to and simply lock them behind level prerequisites for balance like how some of the Warlock Eldritch Invocations have level prerequisites (instead of using random results like you were the honking before.) so maybe something like this:
Prerequisite: 6th level Whenever you shove a creature Prone you can spend 2 points to also make the target Stunned until the start of your next turn as part of the same Shove action. Spend 3 points to make the target Grappled and Restrained for as long as they are Grappled as part of the same Shove action.
(Alright, that last one might be a bit wonky, but you get the idea.)
Likely the points costs would need to be adjusted, but you won’t know which or how until you playtest the subclass. But that’s a decent starting point at any rate. (I’m actually really starting to like this idea of yours.)
Oh very interesting. Thank you for the springboard here.
I see what you're going for here with the meta magic esque system. Do you think uses equal to half barbarian level is too low possibly? I'm worried that even if it's off of short rest, the uses may be too low to make the investment worth it. It would scale nicely as you go on, but the starting would feel a little bad possibly.
Maybe as you rage you gain points equal to one of your mods or the half level. That'd feel a bit better and ties into rage more maybe?
Playtest would reveal a lot in any case and would be where this would go come any sort of workable rough draft. The question was just picking your brain, in case you had an idea about it from any prior experience with any brews utilizing a point system similar. But that is okay if you do not know, you've been very helpful thus far.
Having considered it I agree that at 3rd level it would feel pretty lackluster starting with 1 point. But a system that generates points while you rage sounds potentially complicated, and like the kind of thing players would forget to do half the time.
What if you simplified it to a number of points equal to half your Barbarian levels (rounded up) + your rage damage per short rest. That still ties it to Rage in some way, would start out as 4 points instead of 1, but would still only go as high as 14 points per short rest @ 19th level.
Or as an alternative, perhaps a number of points equal to your twice your number of daily rages (Max 14 @ 20th level). That would start you with 6 points but still keep the eventual cap at 14/short rest.
The first option I suggested would lead to a smoother progression in the number of points they get per rest. The second option would lead to several levels of the same number of points interspersed with periodic jumps. I would personally lean towards the first option over the second, but I wanted to float both ideas to you.
I can't help but think of the Shield Master feat, which gives a bonus action shove at zero resource cost... the only limitation is that you must also make the attack action (so you can't combine it with spellcasting or anything like that). With that in mind, I feel like a bonus-action shove should just be integrated as part of the subclass. I think that would make for a good feature right off the bat, "While Raging, you may take the Shove Action as a Bonus Action." Because let's be honest... even with the ability boost the power of your shoves, you're still not going to use that feature very often if you have to forego a weapon attack every time you want to shove someone. If you don't include the bonus action shove, then basically anyone who takes this class is going to be taking the Shield Master feat anyway.
The alternative is tacking on the ability to shove as part of a weapon attack. There's something similar in the Storm Herald Barbarian... at 14th level, you can take an option that lets you spend your Reaction on your turn as part of an attack to knock an enemy prone. I think the fact that this is a 14th level feature does kind of give some scope on how powerful a feature like that is considered... I think limiting uses is probably the simplest way to balance it without needing to do a lot of finagling.
Also, in my head I suddenly started thinking it would be funny to call this "Path of the Bully" :P
I can't help but think of the Shield Master feat, which gives a bonus action shove at zero resource cost... the only limitation is that you must also make the attack action (so you can't combine it with spellcasting or anything like that). With that in mind, I feel like a bonus-action shove should just be integrated as part of the subclass. I think that would make for a good feature right off the bat, "While Raging, you may take the Shove Action as a Bonus Action." Because let's be honest... even with the ability boost the power of your shoves, you're still not going to use that feature very often if you have to forego a weapon attack every time you want to shove someone. If you don't include the bonus action shove, then basically anyone who takes this class is going to be taking the Shield Master feat anyway.
The alternative is tacking on the ability to shove as part of a weapon attack. There's something similar in the Storm Herald Barbarian... at 14th level, you can take an option that lets you spend your Reaction on your turn as part of an attack to knock an enemy prone. I think the fact that this is a 14th level feature does kind of give some scope on how powerful a feature like that is considered... I think limiting uses is probably the simplest way to balance it without needing to do a lot of finagling.
Also, in my head I suddenly started thinking it would be funny to call this "Path of the Bully" :P
Good point, I had forgotten about Shield Master (as many folks do). So give them the potential to bonus action shove baked in and replace that metashoving option for a Shove attached to an attack for the same cost. That would mean scrapping the added damage metashove option too, but I wasn’t too thrilled with those anyway. This homebrew is still in what I call the “spaghetti stage” when you throw everything at the wall to see what sticks… before you refine it down to a rough draft… before that gets refined up to a finished 1st draft… before it starts the playtest and edit stages. (This is why I suggest that people not rush to publish, there’s too much out there that never got past the spaghetti stage already.)
Having considered it I agree that at 3rd level it would feel pretty lackluster starting with 1 point. But a system that generates points while you rage sounds potentially complicated, and like the kind of thing players would forget to do half the time.
I don't know if it's really that complicated versus keeping track of points till the short rest. If you're a barbarian player what are you keeping track of as a resource besides rage? And since rage is a very important skill to the class, I'm sure gaining 'x' amount of uses while in rage isn't too crazy to keep track of. Especially if you don't need to keep track of it after the fight as well.
I understand the intent of what you're saying, I just think it isn't as complicated as you make it out to be.
If I were to choose any of the options presented in this post, the first one would probably be the better one. Think it feels better as I look at the progression of the points as the levelling goes on.
I agree. I was weighing out how strong BA Shove would be vs sacrificing attack, and it's never worth to sacrifice attacks in this game. I don't think I enjoy the idea of putting shoves as part of a weapon attack. Giving a BA to Barbarians is pretty nice when they often don't have anything to do with it.
Path of the bully is a fun one, I agree.
The other napkin names have been " Path of the Limitless Charger " , "Path of the Arcane Bull" and " Path of Fantasy Football".
I think, rather than track resources, what I would want (as a player) would just to have better shoves. Like... At level 3, I get free bonus action shoves. At 6 I can shove extra hard... Moving 10 feet and dealing damage if I shove a target against a wall or another creature, and at 14 I can grapple as part of the attack action. I think you'd still need additional features to make this competitive with other subclasses, but those features alone would make this excellent at encouraging and rewarding using the shove mechanics actively, instead of just being a niche feature that only comes up in extremely weird, rare circumstances.
Having considered it I agree that at 3rd level it would feel pretty lackluster starting with 1 point. But a system that generates points while you rage sounds potentially complicated, and like the kind of thing players would forget to do half the time.
I don't know if it's really that complicated versus keeping track of points till the short rest. If you're a barbarian player what are you keeping track of as a resource besides rage? And since rage is a very important skill to the class, I'm sure gaining 'x' amount of uses while in rage isn't too crazy to keep track of. Especially if you don't need to keep track of it after the fight as well.
I understand the intent of what you're saying, I just think it isn't as complicated as you make it out to be.
If I were to choose any of the options presented in this post, the first one would probably be the better one. Think it feels better as I look at the progression of the points as the levelling goes on.
You may very well be right and it just sounded more complicated to me than it is. Or not. 🤷♂️ That’s why I say it’ll ultimately come down to how things shake out in playtesting. That’ll be the ultimate proof. And if it works well then Yahtzee, and if it doesn’t you have options on your pocketses. This is part of why I love Homebrew so much, it’s a constant process of refining ideas, it’s fun for me. I am currently developing enough homebrew to publish a couple of sourcebooks. Before they get published I’ll already be working on more. The whole process is enjoyable to me from spaghetti to shelves and everything in between.
I think, rather than track resources, what I would want (as a player) would just to have better shoves. Like... At level 3, I get free bonus action shoves. At 6 I can shove extra hard... Moving 10 feet and dealing damage if I shove a target against a wall or another creature, and at 14 I can grapple as part of the attack action. I think you'd still need additional features to make this competitive with other subclasses, but those features alone would make this excellent at encouraging and rewarding using the shove mechanics actively, instead of just being a niche feature that only comes up in extremely weird, rare circumstances.
It could be that’s the best way to go for this ‘brew. Or perhaps a combination approach of some “always on” shove enhancements, and some that are special and require resource expenses. Some folks (like me) enjoy the added level of tactical decision making that resource tracking introduces. One of my other friends on here specifically prefers “physical resources” like dice pools over ephemeral resource pools like “points.” That’s one of the things I like about getting from spaghetti to a rough draft, it’s like how Michelangelo said about his sculptures. He said that the form was already inside the marble, his job was to knock off all the excess bits to reveal it. The final form of this homebrew is inside there somewhere, we just have to scrape off all the spaghetti to find it’s rough shape, and then comes the process of subsequent drafts and playtesting to polish it up.
The level 3 needs the Bonus action shove, I agree and that's happening.
Here's the early chalkboard version of the subclass so far. ( be gentle)
Level 3: Rage: Bonus action shove, access to shove maneuvers Level 6: Unsure. Place holder is immunity to being moved while raging. Level 10: Advantage when opening physical barriers and athletics to open them ( You're just tackling them). I was wondering if I could also allow the ability to tackle magical barriers too, using str or athletics against caster DC's maybe. Level 14: Action: Move up to half of your movement and shove all creatures within or adjacent of the line utilizing the same shove action.
Hmm, I think I mentioned about using dice similar to the superiority dice. Throw something tangible. The dice that rolls in that subclass though 'usually' adds to damage, but it does add to other things/effects sometimes.
My friend, you are really into the spaghetti eh? ;)
I understand what you're saying though. This was always going to be a process, but it's a process that I'd like multiple passes over before I even begin playtesting myself. I personally need input and constructive criticism when it comes to anything I do because that's how I learn. If I can gather a lot of perspectives together, eventually I should come out fairly level-headed in my decision making, theoretically anyway.
Okay, I've thought through what I said just now, and I'm thinking about it a bit more...
So, at level 3 you gain two features... for one, you can Shove as a bonus action while raging, and can also shove as part of triggering your rage
At level 6, when shoving a creature they are moved 10 feet instead of 5. If they collide with a solid object or another creature they take 1d6+your Strength Modifier Bludgeoning damage. If shoved into a second creature, that creature must make a STR Saving throw (equaling 10+Prof Bonus+STR) taking the same damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful save.
At level 10 your Carry Capacity Doubles, and you can shove or grapple creatures up to two sizes larger than yourself. You have Advantage on STR Checks to push, pull, lift, or break objects.
At level 14, your shoves become damaging. Once per turn, when successfully shoving a creature, you can choose to also deal bludgeoning damage to them equal 1d6+Half Your Barbarian Level.
Okay, so let me talk a bit about my thought process. Right off the bat... anyone who has access to a Bonus Action shove will tell you it's crazy useful. Whether you're shoving a target prone to get Melee advantage against them, or just knocking someone down to decrease their movement, or even just moving someone around the battlefield, a free shove is incredibly useful. I don't know that you need more than that for a level 3 feature, but I feel like there is room to tack something else onto that, I just can't think of anything off the top of my head.
Anyway, at level 6 you just double down on what makes your subclass useful. Shoving is better... either you get more battlefield control by shoving creatures further, or you're at least able to deal some additional damage for moments when there's no benefit to knocking someone prone, or you have nowhere useful to shove them. Plus, I think everyone who tries to shove in combat has at least tried to damage multiple creatures with it... most DM's have homebrewed something in those situations, but I think it's helpful to have some hard and fast rules to make this a reliable trick.
At level 10, I think that's around the time you start to regularly start encountering larger, more dangerous creatures. Level 10 is also a nice, decently high level where it doesn't seem completely ridiculous that a medium sized creature is suddenly grappling and shoving creatures the size of a mobile home. But I know that's not incredibly exciting, so I think this is a good level to add some ribbon features... this is mostly just based on the 6th level Bear Totem Barbarian feature, but it just makes a bigger, stronger barbarian who can do some fairly basic things in a way that really exemplifies just how strong you've gotten.
Finally, my idea for a level 14 ability basically draws its damage numbers directly from the Zealot Barbarian... I figure if that class can deal 1d6+Half-Level once per round, there's no reason that this class can't deal that same amount of damage once per turn just in a different way. I also made sure to include language that you can choose whether or not you deal damage with a shove, because sometimes you want to shove a creature to avoid dealing damage.
Anyway, that's my pitch for a resource-free version of this concept. Looking back through some of the suggested features, I think there's still some room for replacing an Attack of Opportunity with a shove, but I'm not sure what level it would fit in with my suggestion. I also feel like being able to shove multiple creatures with a single action would be cool, but I'm not sure where to fit that in... would that be a good first level thing? Like... what if, when you trigger your Rage you get the option of an AOE shove? Something similar to Astral Self monk, which has an AOE attack when activating the arms, but isn't an option later... that way it's a cool thing you can do once, but not something you can do over and over. Is a multi-target shove good enough to justify that, though? Hmm... I guess if that initial shove also gains all the later features it could be pretty good, but maybe to a point that the initial AOE shove is too powerful. Although I think I'm hitting that point in homebrewing where you're constantly second guessing yourself on whether the idea is too powerful or not powerful enough.
Hmm, I think I mentioned about using dice similar to the superiority dice. Throw something tangible. The dice that rolls in that subclass though 'usually' adds to damage, but it does add to other things/effects sometimes.
My friend, you are really into the spaghetti eh? ;)
I understand what you're saying though. This was always going to be a process, but it's a process that I'd like multiple passes over before I even begin playtesting myself. I personally need input and constructive criticism when it comes to anything I do because that's how I learn. If I can gather a lot of perspectives together, eventually I should come out fairly level-headed in my decision making, theoretically anyway.
Thanks for sticking around in the thread.
Yes, you did mention a dice pool before, but I couldn’t think of a good way to incorporate a dice pool so I went with points for my suggestions.
Lol, yeah. Other people call it the “brainstorming” stage, but I like my spaghetti analogy because in my mind I’m figuratively throwing everything up onto a wall and looking to see what falls away to reveal what sticks. Plus, I’m Italian so that’s a thing. Lol
Yeah, the brainstorming stage is necessary for my design process too. Then, after the less good ideas fall away I refine what’s left into a rough draft which I review and edit into a finished first draft. That’s what/when I start playtesting. Sometimes I can get from brainstorming to playtesting in a day or two, other times it can take a lot longer, sometimes weeks. (And that’s just the ones that make it out of brainstorming, some ‘brews never evolve into a rough draft at all.) I usually don’t seek out constructive criticism until at least the rough draft is done, usually not even until the first draft is ready to be playtested, but I do this a lot so I’ve gotten better at getting to that first draft point on my own so I’m seeking advice on something relatively polished most of the time. Playtesting is usually the slowest part for me, I often take months playtesting stuff before I feel it’s ready. But I’ve been homebrewing D&D since 2e, so it’s been a long journey getting to this point.
My pleasure, happy to help. Like I said before, this idea of yours has piqued my interest quite a bit.
Okay, I've thought through what I said just now, and I'm thinking about it a bit more...
So, at level 3 you gain two features... for one, you can Shove as a bonus action while raging, and can also shove as part of triggering your rage
At level 6, when shoving a creature they are moved 10 feet instead of 5. If they collide with a solid object or another creature they take 1d6+your Strength Modifier Bludgeoning damage. If shoved into a second creature, that creature must make a STR Saving throw (equaling 10+Prof Bonus+STR) taking the same damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful save.
At level 10 your Carry Capacity Doubles, and you can shove or grapple creatures up to two sizes larger than yourself. You have Advantage on STR Checks to push, pull, lift, or break objects.
At level 14, your shoves become damaging. Once per turn, when successfully shoving a creature, you can choose to also deal bludgeoning damage to them equal 1d6+Half Your Barbarian Level.
Okay, so let me talk a bit about my thought process. Right off the bat... anyone who has access to a Bonus Action shove will tell you it's crazy useful. Whether you're shoving a target prone to get Melee advantage against them, or just knocking someone down to decrease their movement, or even just moving someone around the battlefield, a free shove is incredibly useful. I don't know that you need more than that for a level 3 feature, but I feel like there is room to tack something else onto that, I just can't think of anything off the top of my head.
Anyway, at level 6 you just double down on what makes your subclass useful. Shoving is better... either you get more battlefield control by shoving creatures further, or you're at least able to deal some additional damage for moments when there's no benefit to knocking someone prone, or you have nowhere useful to shove them. Plus, I think everyone who tries to shove in combat has at least tried to damage multiple creatures with it... most DM's have homebrewed something in those situations, but I think it's helpful to have some hard and fast rules to make this a reliable trick.
At level 10, I think that's around the time you start to regularly start encountering larger, more dangerous creatures. Level 10 is also a nice, decently high level where it doesn't seem completely ridiculous that a medium sized creature is suddenly grappling and shoving creatures the size of a mobile home. But I know that's not incredibly exciting, so I think this is a good level to add some ribbon features... this is mostly just based on the 6th level Bear Totem Barbarian feature, but it just makes a bigger, stronger barbarian who can do some fairly basic things in a way that really exemplifies just how strong you've gotten.
Finally, my idea for a level 14 ability basically draws its damage numbers directly from the Zealot Barbarian... I figure if that class can deal 1d6+Half-Level once per round, there's no reason that this class can't deal that same amount of damage once per turn just in a different way. I also made sure to include language that you can choose whether or not you deal damage with a shove, because sometimes you want to shove a creature to avoid dealing damage.
Anyway, that's my pitch for a resource-free version of this concept. Looking back through some of the suggested features, I think there's still some room for replacing an Attack of Opportunity with a shove, but I'm not sure what level it would fit in with my suggestion. I also feel like being able to shove multiple creatures with a single action would be cool, but I'm not sure where to fit that in... would that be a good first level thing? Like... what if, when you trigger your Rage you get the option of an AOE shove? Something similar to Astral Self monk, which has an AOE attack when activating the arms, but isn't an option later... that way it's a cool thing you can do once, but not something you can do over and over. Is a multi-target shove good enough to justify that, though? Hmm... I guess if that initial shove also gains all the later features it could be pretty good, but maybe to a point that the initial AOE shove is too powerful. Although I think I'm hitting that point in homebrewing where you're constantly second guessing yourself on whether the idea is too powerful or not powerful enough.
It needs another ribbon at 3rd level, something fun and fluffy, but not overtly combat related. (Maybe move the increased carrying capacity ribbon up to 3rd level and leave the Advantage at 10th and add “bend” to the list of what you can do to objects? Something. 🤷♂️)
For your 6th level feature i would change it from a flat 10 ft shove to adding 5 ft to the shove to open up the possibility of shoving someone 5 ft and knocking them prone.
As for the idea of shoving multiple creatures at once, or an AoE shove, those could fit in by having a variety of “improved shove Options” at 6th level so the player can mix-an’-match their improvements to suit their own personal concept for their PC. Maybe with the chance to add an additional option at 10th & 14th so they can choose which order they get them in. It’s not a huge series of choices to make since they will eventually get all 4 Options anyway, but any player agency is better than none. Ne?
Add the OA shove in at 10th since it’s loosing half its ribbon to fill the gap @ 3rd level.
For the 14th level feature, why not instead make it so that they can automatically shove a creature on a successful weapon attack. That would synergize well with the preexisting action economy, and it would allow them to take advantage of whatever magic weapons they are wielding at that level too. That’s what I would do instead of simply adding damage to the shove. But that’s just me.
Hey folks.
Im trying to hammer out an idea for a primal path geared toward shoving. This is pretty much back of the napkin scribbling, so I apologize in advance but thank you as well.
Thematically, it's based of the astral sea, or cosmic powers. And youre like a meteor or comet that has the strength to push or knock people down. I didn't want to go the route of gravity or comet strikes for more damage, dunno why. Shoving kinda intrigues me and I just thought a subclass around it could be interesting as if you were a controlling, shooting star.
The core mechanic is shove gaining added , possibly random benefits. Like removing reactions for x time, the clash of the shove causing a flash of light to blind, or even simply the shove gaining both effects, or gaining enhanced default effects.
I'd have to add to it, but I was wondering if having a wild magic esque random table with enough options could make it cool. I'd probably have to get shove to be used as a bonus action to not take away from barbs attacks or something. Barb's wanna hit stuff.
The added ideas is to either allow the shoving of huge creatures with a restriction or penalty.
And or
Expend all movement and move half the amount expended to shove all creatures within a line, while also randomly utilizing the table. Which gets the shooting star feel.
Im sorry if it seems dumb or I'm not super specific on wording but I just wanted to see if it's even remotely interesting to anyone or is there a chance this could be fun. If it was, I'd happily write it up.
Thank you again.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
I would stay away from “random” buffs to shove actions. For a character, especially a Barbarian to sacrifice an attack to make a shove they have to know they can rely on the outcome to do what they intend or else it will almost always be more beneficial to skip the shove and go for the attack. Even granting a Shove as a bonus action puts it in competition with things like Rage and the ever popular PAM bonus attack. If it were me, I would be looking for inspiration more from Battle Master Maneuvers or even Metamagic than Wild Magic. In fact, a series of points equal to half Barbarian level (rounded down), that refresh on a short rest, and could be spent on Metamagicesque shove enhancements would be pretty cool IMO. Just some food for thought.
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Ahh.. I know attacking is always better. But thats something I'm hoping to break or at least give another perspective on. Sure PAM is always better to take, but I'm really hoping to give another option in bonus action then just 'hit'. I have really big issues on PAM being such an end all to class design. I know it's good, but you get some folks who complain about how martial just attack. But when you try to change the mold, they reply they could just attack. This isn't what you're doing, but its a knee jerk reaction some have had in different spaces already. It's an issue with how things like PAM, GWM and Sentinel has just dominated how class design is perceived, and it kinda sucks because they're too good. But that's a different discussion altogether.
As for bonus action rage competing for the bonus action shove,. Maybe the ability to bonus action shove would be the rage 'ability'. Like maybe, as you rage and as a bonus action there after, you can shove. I don't see that's a problem of any kind.
Less random and more controlled with finite resources? Okay, that's seems like a possibility. Whether it be like metamagic to alter/buff the shove with points, or even adding dies similar to superiority dice like battle master. If we go dice route, we can say the shove does damage up to the roll as you utilize the additional 'maneuver'. That'll give the extra damage that martial tend to yearn for, and maybe ribbon a control type mechanic.
I guess I aimed at random initially because I could theoretically get away with more wacky or stronger effects if it was random. That, and I wouldn't have to deal with a finite amount of uses, or charges on something that can only be used during rage anyway. Though short resting to get points back is reasonable, and allowing x amount of usage of additive benefits to shove where you already have advantage while raging is a valid perspective.
Thank you for your insight and thoughts on this by the way. I like hashing these things out.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Sure thing. I totally get where you’re coming from in your attempt to make a Shove as a viable alternative to just attacking. That’s why I recommended against it being random, to keep it viable. Some ideas off the top of my head are:
I’m paring them under the assumption that they would get two of these options to start and add an additional option at the various higher subclass levels for a total of five “metashove” options (ten special ways to use a Shove since each option would grant a pair of uses). Obviously you would need to come up with a few more options to add to the list. But that’s about where I would start at any rate.
You could add more powerful effects if you want to and simply lock them behind level prerequisites for balance like how some of the Warlock Eldritch Invocations have level prerequisites (instead of using random results like you were the honking before.) so maybe something like this:
(Alright, that last one might be a bit wonky, but you get the idea.)
Likely the points costs would need to be adjusted, but you won’t know which or how until you playtest the subclass. But that’s a decent starting point at any rate. (I’m actually really starting to like this idea of yours.)
I hope that helps.
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Oh very interesting. Thank you for the springboard here.
I see what you're going for here with the meta magic esque system. Do you think uses equal to half barbarian level is too low possibly? I'm worried that even if it's off of short rest, the uses may be too low to make the investment worth it. It would scale nicely as you go on, but the starting would feel a little bad possibly.
Maybe as you rage you gain points equal to one of your mods or the half level. That'd feel a bit better and ties into rage more maybe?
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
That’s the kind of thing playtesting reveals.
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Playtest would reveal a lot in any case and would be where this would go come any sort of workable rough draft. The question was just picking your brain, in case you had an idea about it from any prior experience with any brews utilizing a point system similar. But that is okay if you do not know, you've been very helpful thus far.
Thank you again.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Having considered it I agree that at 3rd level it would feel pretty lackluster starting with 1 point. But a system that generates points while you rage sounds potentially complicated, and like the kind of thing players would forget to do half the time.
What if you simplified it to a number of points equal to half your Barbarian levels (rounded up) + your rage damage per short rest. That still ties it to Rage in some way, would start out as 4 points instead of 1, but would still only go as high as 14 points per short rest @ 19th level.
Or as an alternative, perhaps a number of points equal to your twice your number of daily rages (Max 14 @ 20th level). That would start you with 6 points but still keep the eventual cap at 14/short rest.
The first option I suggested would lead to a smoother progression in the number of points they get per rest. The second option would lead to several levels of the same number of points interspersed with periodic jumps. I would personally lean towards the first option over the second, but I wanted to float both ideas to you.
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I can't help but think of the Shield Master feat, which gives a bonus action shove at zero resource cost... the only limitation is that you must also make the attack action (so you can't combine it with spellcasting or anything like that). With that in mind, I feel like a bonus-action shove should just be integrated as part of the subclass. I think that would make for a good feature right off the bat, "While Raging, you may take the Shove Action as a Bonus Action." Because let's be honest... even with the ability boost the power of your shoves, you're still not going to use that feature very often if you have to forego a weapon attack every time you want to shove someone. If you don't include the bonus action shove, then basically anyone who takes this class is going to be taking the Shield Master feat anyway.
The alternative is tacking on the ability to shove as part of a weapon attack. There's something similar in the Storm Herald Barbarian... at 14th level, you can take an option that lets you spend your Reaction on your turn as part of an attack to knock an enemy prone. I think the fact that this is a 14th level feature does kind of give some scope on how powerful a feature like that is considered... I think limiting uses is probably the simplest way to balance it without needing to do a lot of finagling.
Also, in my head I suddenly started thinking it would be funny to call this "Path of the Bully" :P
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Good point, I had forgotten about Shield Master (as many folks do). So give them the potential to bonus action shove baked in and replace that metashoving option for a Shove attached to an attack for the same cost. That would mean scrapping the added damage metashove option too, but I wasn’t too thrilled with those anyway. This homebrew is still in what I call the “spaghetti stage” when you throw everything at the wall to see what sticks… before you refine it down to a rough draft… before that gets refined up to a finished 1st draft… before it starts the playtest and edit stages. (This is why I suggest that people not rush to publish, there’s too much out there that never got past the spaghetti stage already.)
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I don't know if it's really that complicated versus keeping track of points till the short rest. If you're a barbarian player what are you keeping track of as a resource besides rage? And since rage is a very important skill to the class, I'm sure gaining 'x' amount of uses while in rage isn't too crazy to keep track of. Especially if you don't need to keep track of it after the fight as well.
I understand the intent of what you're saying, I just think it isn't as complicated as you make it out to be.
If I were to choose any of the options presented in this post, the first one would probably be the better one. Think it feels better as I look at the progression of the points as the levelling goes on.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
I agree. I was weighing out how strong BA Shove would be vs sacrificing attack, and it's never worth to sacrifice attacks in this game. I don't think I enjoy the idea of putting shoves as part of a weapon attack. Giving a BA to Barbarians is pretty nice when they often don't have anything to do with it.
Path of the bully is a fun one, I agree.
The other napkin names have been " Path of the Limitless Charger " , "Path of the Arcane Bull" and " Path of Fantasy Football".
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
I think, rather than track resources, what I would want (as a player) would just to have better shoves. Like... At level 3, I get free bonus action shoves. At 6 I can shove extra hard... Moving 10 feet and dealing damage if I shove a target against a wall or another creature, and at 14 I can grapple as part of the attack action. I think you'd still need additional features to make this competitive with other subclasses, but those features alone would make this excellent at encouraging and rewarding using the shove mechanics actively, instead of just being a niche feature that only comes up in extremely weird, rare circumstances.
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You may very well be right and it just sounded more complicated to me than it is. Or not. 🤷♂️ That’s why I say it’ll ultimately come down to how things shake out in playtesting. That’ll be the ultimate proof. And if it works well then Yahtzee, and if it doesn’t you have options on your pocketses. This is part of why I love Homebrew so much, it’s a constant process of refining ideas, it’s fun for me. I am currently developing enough homebrew to publish a couple of sourcebooks. Before they get published I’ll already be working on more. The whole process is enjoyable to me from spaghetti to shelves and everything in between.
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It could be that’s the best way to go for this ‘brew. Or perhaps a combination approach of some “always on” shove enhancements, and some that are special and require resource expenses. Some folks (like me) enjoy the added level of tactical decision making that resource tracking introduces. One of my other friends on here specifically prefers “physical resources” like dice pools over ephemeral resource pools like “points.” That’s one of the things I like about getting from spaghetti to a rough draft, it’s like how Michelangelo said about his sculptures. He said that the form was already inside the marble, his job was to knock off all the excess bits to reveal it. The final form of this homebrew is inside there somewhere, we just have to scrape off all the spaghetti to find it’s rough shape, and then comes the process of subsequent drafts and playtesting to polish it up.
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The level 3 needs the Bonus action shove, I agree and that's happening.
Here's the early chalkboard version of the subclass so far. ( be gentle)
Level 3: Rage: Bonus action shove, access to shove maneuvers
Level 6: Unsure. Place holder is immunity to being moved while raging.
Level 10: Advantage when opening physical barriers and athletics to open them ( You're just tackling them). I was wondering if I could also allow the ability to tackle magical barriers too, using str or athletics against caster DC's maybe.
Level 14: Action: Move up to half of your movement and shove all creatures within or adjacent of the line utilizing the same shove action.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Hmm, I think I mentioned about using dice similar to the superiority dice. Throw something tangible. The dice that rolls in that subclass though 'usually' adds to damage, but it does add to other things/effects sometimes.
My friend, you are really into the spaghetti eh? ;)
I understand what you're saying though. This was always going to be a process, but it's a process that I'd like multiple passes over before I even begin playtesting myself. I personally need input and constructive criticism when it comes to anything I do because that's how I learn. If I can gather a lot of perspectives together, eventually I should come out fairly level-headed in my decision making, theoretically anyway.
Thanks for sticking around in the thread.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Okay, I've thought through what I said just now, and I'm thinking about it a bit more...
So, at level 3 you gain two features... for one, you can Shove as a bonus action while raging, and can also shove as part of triggering your rage
At level 6, when shoving a creature they are moved 10 feet instead of 5. If they collide with a solid object or another creature they take 1d6+your Strength Modifier Bludgeoning damage. If shoved into a second creature, that creature must make a STR Saving throw (equaling 10+Prof Bonus+STR) taking the same damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful save.
At level 10 your Carry Capacity Doubles, and you can shove or grapple creatures up to two sizes larger than yourself. You have Advantage on STR Checks to push, pull, lift, or break objects.
At level 14, your shoves become damaging. Once per turn, when successfully shoving a creature, you can choose to also deal bludgeoning damage to them equal 1d6+Half Your Barbarian Level.
Okay, so let me talk a bit about my thought process. Right off the bat... anyone who has access to a Bonus Action shove will tell you it's crazy useful. Whether you're shoving a target prone to get Melee advantage against them, or just knocking someone down to decrease their movement, or even just moving someone around the battlefield, a free shove is incredibly useful. I don't know that you need more than that for a level 3 feature, but I feel like there is room to tack something else onto that, I just can't think of anything off the top of my head.
Anyway, at level 6 you just double down on what makes your subclass useful. Shoving is better... either you get more battlefield control by shoving creatures further, or you're at least able to deal some additional damage for moments when there's no benefit to knocking someone prone, or you have nowhere useful to shove them. Plus, I think everyone who tries to shove in combat has at least tried to damage multiple creatures with it... most DM's have homebrewed something in those situations, but I think it's helpful to have some hard and fast rules to make this a reliable trick.
At level 10, I think that's around the time you start to regularly start encountering larger, more dangerous creatures. Level 10 is also a nice, decently high level where it doesn't seem completely ridiculous that a medium sized creature is suddenly grappling and shoving creatures the size of a mobile home. But I know that's not incredibly exciting, so I think this is a good level to add some ribbon features... this is mostly just based on the 6th level Bear Totem Barbarian feature, but it just makes a bigger, stronger barbarian who can do some fairly basic things in a way that really exemplifies just how strong you've gotten.
Finally, my idea for a level 14 ability basically draws its damage numbers directly from the Zealot Barbarian... I figure if that class can deal 1d6+Half-Level once per round, there's no reason that this class can't deal that same amount of damage once per turn just in a different way. I also made sure to include language that you can choose whether or not you deal damage with a shove, because sometimes you want to shove a creature to avoid dealing damage.
Anyway, that's my pitch for a resource-free version of this concept. Looking back through some of the suggested features, I think there's still some room for replacing an Attack of Opportunity with a shove, but I'm not sure what level it would fit in with my suggestion. I also feel like being able to shove multiple creatures with a single action would be cool, but I'm not sure where to fit that in... would that be a good first level thing? Like... what if, when you trigger your Rage you get the option of an AOE shove? Something similar to Astral Self monk, which has an AOE attack when activating the arms, but isn't an option later... that way it's a cool thing you can do once, but not something you can do over and over. Is a multi-target shove good enough to justify that, though? Hmm... I guess if that initial shove also gains all the later features it could be pretty good, but maybe to a point that the initial AOE shove is too powerful. Although I think I'm hitting that point in homebrewing where you're constantly second guessing yourself on whether the idea is too powerful or not powerful enough.
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Yes, you did mention a dice pool before, but I couldn’t think of a good way to incorporate a dice pool so I went with points for my suggestions.
Lol, yeah. Other people call it the “brainstorming” stage, but I like my spaghetti analogy because in my mind I’m figuratively throwing everything up onto a wall and looking to see what falls away to reveal what sticks. Plus, I’m Italian so that’s a thing. Lol
Yeah, the brainstorming stage is necessary for my design process too. Then, after the less good ideas fall away I refine what’s left into a rough draft which I review and edit into a finished first draft. That’s what/when I start playtesting. Sometimes I can get from brainstorming to playtesting in a day or two, other times it can take a lot longer, sometimes weeks. (And that’s just the ones that make it out of brainstorming, some ‘brews never evolve into a rough draft at all.) I usually don’t seek out constructive criticism until at least the rough draft is done, usually not even until the first draft is ready to be playtested, but I do this a lot so I’ve gotten better at getting to that first draft point on my own so I’m seeking advice on something relatively polished most of the time. Playtesting is usually the slowest part for me, I often take months playtesting stuff before I feel it’s ready. But I’ve been homebrewing D&D since 2e, so it’s been a long journey getting to this point.
My pleasure, happy to help. Like I said before, this idea of yours has piqued my interest quite a bit.
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It needs another ribbon at 3rd level, something fun and fluffy, but not overtly combat related. (Maybe move the increased carrying capacity ribbon up to 3rd level and leave the Advantage at 10th and add “bend” to the list of what you can do to objects? Something. 🤷♂️)
For your 6th level feature i would change it from a flat 10 ft shove to adding 5 ft to the shove to open up the possibility of shoving someone 5 ft and knocking them prone.
As for the idea of shoving multiple creatures at once, or an AoE shove, those could fit in by having a variety of “improved shove Options” at 6th level so the player can mix-an’-match their improvements to suit their own personal concept for their PC. Maybe with the chance to add an additional option at 10th & 14th so they can choose which order they get them in. It’s not a huge series of choices to make since they will eventually get all 4 Options anyway, but any player agency is better than none. Ne?
Add the OA shove in at 10th since it’s loosing half its ribbon to fill the gap @ 3rd level.
For the 14th level feature, why not instead make it so that they can automatically shove a creature on a successful weapon attack. That would synergize well with the preexisting action economy, and it would allow them to take advantage of whatever magic weapons they are wielding at that level too. That’s what I would do instead of simply adding damage to the shove. But that’s just me.
I would think that subclass looks fun to play.
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