Good, I’m glad. I thought you might. Now I think it’s ready to be written up into a rough draft. After a few editing passes over the next day or two it should be a finished first draft ready to playtest. 👍 Go team!
I was excited about this project and had another couple of ideas I wanted to share with youse. I figured this would be the simplest way, so I took the liberty of mocking up a rough draft for this subclass. There’s only one line of flavor text, and I suck at coming up with names so some of them might be lame, but this is what rough drafts are for. I hope you like it. Feel free to copy/paste the descriptions if you want to, and once you’ve spent a day or two tweaking things and adding in the flavor blurbs you’ll have a finished first draft ready to playtest. (I just ask for a shoutout if you ever decide to publish it one day.) Enjoy!
You really know how to throw your weight around, and your opponents.
Path of the Wrastler Features
Barbarian Level
Feature
3rd
Powerfully Built, Strength of Rage
6th
Shove Specializations
10th
Powerhouse, Quickshove
14th
Shoving Strike
Powerfully Built
3rd-level Path of the Wrastler feature
You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
Strength of Rage
3rd-level Path of the Wrastler feature
Whenever you enter a Rage you can attempt to Shove a creature within reach as part of the same bonus action.
In addition, while raging you can attempt to Shove a creature as a bonus action on each of your turns.
Shove Specializations
6th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
You learn 2 of the Shove Specializations of your choice from the options listed below. You learn another Shove specialization when you reach 10th and 14th level in this class.
While you are raging, whenever you make a Shove attempt you can choose to use one of your Shove Specializations. You can only use one Shove specialization per turn.
Distant Shove
You can attempt to Shove a creature that is up to 10 feet away from you.
Group Shove
You can attempt to shove every creature within 5 feet. Make a single Strength (Athletics) check contested by the targets’ Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks (each target chooses the ability it uses). You succeed automatically against an incapacitated target. Each creature that fails its contest is either knocked prone, or moved 5 feet away from you (your choice).
Long Shove
Whenever you Shove a creature you can move them an additional 5 feet. If the creature moves at least 10 feet and collides with another creature or object it takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage. If it collides with a creature, that creature must make a Strength saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier. The creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed saving throw, or half as much damage on a success.
Simul-Shove
You can attempt to Shove 2 creatures within reach instead of one, make a separate Strength (Athletics) check against each target.
Powerhouse
10th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
You can attempt to Shove or Grapple creatures up to 2 sizes larger than you.
In addition, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks you make to bend, break, push, drag or lift objects.
Quickshove
10th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
Whenever you can make an Opportunity Attack against a creature you can attempt to Shove that creature instead.
Shoving Strike
14th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
Once per turn, whenever you make a successful melee weapon attack against a creature you can choose to automatically Shove it.
Okay, so let me talk a bit about my thought process. Right off the bat... anyone who has access to a Bonus Action shove will tell you it's crazy useful. Whether you're shoving a target prone to get Melee advantage against them, or just knocking someone down to decrease their movement, or even just moving someone around the battlefield, a free shove is incredibly useful.
Just to play devil's advocate here, in my play experience shove can really be a mixed bag, especially when your party has ranged attackers. Reducing movement or moving someone 5 feet can be useful in certain situations, but it's often inconsequential. It's a nice tool to have, but you'll find yourself in situations where it doesn't really help you out. Which is fine, I just think it is worth pointing out. In existing builds, shield Master is often overshadowed by many other options.
Looking at the subclass as a whole, I think this would be a lot more compelling if you built around the concept of a meteor/comet rather than the inspiring mechanic. What I mean is, everything doesn't need to revolve around the shove action. Something at 6 or 10 where the barbarian just streaks forward in a line - functionally more like a trample - would be really evocative. I think you're really hamstringing yourself creatively by fixating on everything being related to shoving.
Okay, so let me talk a bit about my thought process. Right off the bat... anyone who has access to a Bonus Action shove will tell you it's crazy useful. Whether you're shoving a target prone to get Melee advantage against them, or just knocking someone down to decrease their movement, or even just moving someone around the battlefield, a free shove is incredibly useful.
Just to play devil's advocate here, in my play experience shove can really be a mixed bag, especially when your party has ranged attackers. Reducing movement or moving someone 5 feet can be useful in certain situations, but it's often inconsequential. It's a nice tool to have, but you'll find yourself in situations where it doesn't really help you out. Which is fine, I just think it is worth pointing out.
Looking at the subclass as a whole, I think this would be a lot more compelling if you built around the concept of a meteor/comet rather than the inspiring mechanic. What I mean is, everything doesn't need to revolve around the shove action. Something at 6 or 10 where the barbarian just streaks forward in a line - functionally more like a trample - would be really evocative I think. I think you're really hamstringing yourself creatively by fixating on everything being related to shoving.
At level 3, while raging you may take the shove action as a bonus action.
Additionally, When you rage you gain 'x' amount of charges that can be expended on special shove maneuvers that you learn as part of this feature. You learn 2 at this level, and 2 more at 6 and 10. If any of these would required DC, you would use STR+8+Proficiency.
// Since I'm making shove a bonus action while raging, I shouldn't have to lace damage into the shove action as a standard. The amount of charges is a tough one. Maybe half level + rage damage? Str mod + rage? STR + PROF?
At level 6, you are immune to all effects that would move you while you are conscious.
//I think being immune to movement effect's is pretty lit as a level 6. It isn't tied to rage sadly and doesn't add to the mechanic. Moving the level 14 to here is an idea.
At level 10, you are able to use your athletics in opening doors, windows and other physical barriers. You are able to use your strength/athletics in attempting to destroy magical barriers. DC = 10 + spell level / or DC based on spellcaster?
// Look, if youre a charger, you can break down a door. Using athletics is a big leg up over just STR, unsure if add anything else to the physical part. But being able to shoulder check the arcane? That's kinda lit. Dunno how I can word it to make it make sense tbh or if it was balanced.
At level 14, you are able to move up to half of your movement and shove all creatures within or adjacent of the line utilizing the same shove action.
//I'm stuck on this big line aoe shove. I dunno what a good capstone could be. I need help with this one. This could be pushed downward in the levels and have a much bigger oomph maybe.
Tackle Maneuvers
Expansive Force - Spending 1 point : Using the same shove action, you may shove an additional creature within 5 feet of yourself . Spending 2 points, using the same shove action you may shove all creatures within a 15 foot cone.
Empowered Push - Spending 1 point: The target moves an additional 5 feet. Spending 2 points: the target moves instead an additional 10 feet.
Or
Biotic Charge - Spending 1 or 2 points unsure: The target moves an additional amount of feet equal to your Strength score.
Concussive Tackle - Spending 2 point: The target must make a Con save or be stunned for 1 round.
Ground Game - Spending 1 point: You may attempt to grapple after you shove someone prone.
Colossus Shunt - Spending 1 point: You are able shove Huge Sized creatures.
Giga Impact - Spending up to 3 points: When you shove a creature, you deal 1d6 force damage per point.
Break Balance - Spending 1 points: That target's movement is reduced by 10 feet until the end of their next turn.
Charger's Reach - Spend 1 point: You may target any creature within 10 feet of you with your Shove Action. Spend 2: you may target creature within 20 feet with your shove action
// I always need more maneuvers. I stole Biotic charge for Mass effect. Imagine hitting someone and just throwing them across the room seems kinda sick.
This is the current chalkboard version. Thoughts? Be gentle :)
Well, it’s halfway to a rough draft, and you got some good stuff in there.
Instead of flat immunity to forced movement I would give them advantage on checks & saves to resist it and then bump it to immunity at 14th as part of the cap.
I would add in a nova shove in addition to the cone, like the scenes in the movie when they have the hero surrounded in a beat down and Schwarzenegger stands up mightily and they all get pushed back.
I can help with the wording for the line shove, but not at the moment. Remind me later this evening.
That idea of being able to smash through magic barriers is cool, but simultaneously both niche and super powerful. I mean, would it just straight destroy a wall of force or globe of invulnerability? This might be your capstone.
I thought about splitting up the forced movement immunity as ADV and Immunity later on. I think my thoughts were that immunity at 6 wouldn't be super duper balance breaking if the barb was the only one doing it in this subclass. But, perhaps it is better splitting it up.
Yeah, full circle can be done. Thunderwave esque thing.
I haven't really figured out if the smash would destroy it or it would allow a chance for just the barb to get in. The first one is super strong, this barrier breaking monster. But I also thought using strength over athletics would be better-ish. The second one would probably be better, letting the barb not get caged in and just force himself through the barrier as opposed to shattering it. I dunno if it'd be a capstone if I go the 2nd route over the first one. But who knows.
In regards to how many charges you get... I say just make it equal to your Barbarian level. Makes them nice and easy to track, and I feel like the maneuvers pitched are roughly equivalent to what you could do with Ki as a Monk... nothing so earth shaking that it would break the game if you could do it 10 times or more in a day.
See I thought so too, but I became concerned when reading through my maneuvers. Hear me out.
Similar to BattleMaster there's probably no real limit on how many you can place on a shove. You could just lace them all up as written * though I can always say you can only use one per shove*, which I think is kind suck. That's a heck of a shove if you could just throw'em all up.
Equal to class level would work, but if I tie this all in with rage, things can get weird. Explosive. A level 6 barb has 4 rages a day, for example. Maybe they won't use all 4 but for the sake of expenditure let's assume they do, that's 24 charges that day, which would be similar to using the alternatives I've listed prior. But using full level as a modifier, you get so much points passing 8 things get really wacky and I doubt all the points would be used unless I decide inflate the costs.
If I kept Str and Rage mod for example, the highest you would get at the capstone for example is 8 on each rage vs 14 on each rage.
If I were to make more maneuvers while also incorporating level pre req's and more harsher charge usages, this would /hopefully/ cause more compelling decisionmaking.
With all this said, the amount is something I think I'd have to nail down during Playtesting I think
Honestly, the exact number of points is only relevant in relation to how expensive the maneuvers are to use, and how frequently you want people to use them in an average of 6-8 3.5-round long combats per long rest. If you want people to spam them, keep them cheap and give them the extra points, but make sure they aren’t too powerful. If you want them to be really meaningful when used, but used sparingly then make the maneuvers cost a torch more, or reduce the number of points. But that’s all gonna shake out in playtesting. In the beginning you just need a baseline to work from so you can playtest. Why not pick the middle option of Half-Level+Str mod and go from there. Make the tie-in to Rage that they are only useable when raging. Keep it simple and build up from there when you start to see how it plays.
HonestlyNobu, I had a flash of inspiration and a few minutes so I banged this out for you real quick:
Blitz
14th-level Path of the Gridiron feature
While raging, as an action you move up to half your speed in a straight line, ignoring any other restrictions on your movement.
Each creature in that line must make a Strength saving throw against your Tackle save DC. A creature takes 4d8 force damage and is knocked prone on a failed saving throw, or it takes half as much damage and is pushed 5 feet to either side into an unoccupied space it can occupy on a success.
Each creature within 5 feet of that line must make a Strength saving throw against your Tackle save DC. A creature takes 4d4 force damage and is pushed 5 feet away from the line into an unoccupied space it can occupy on a failed saving throw, or it takes half as much damage and is not pushed on a success.
Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until the next time you enter a Rage.
At level 3, while raging you may take the shove action as a bonus action.
Make sure you also allow shoving as part of the bonus action you use to rage.
Additionally, When you rage you gain 'x' amount of charges that can be expended on special shove maneuvers that you learn as part of this feature. You learn 2 at this level, and 2 more at 6 and 10. If any of these would required DC, you would use STR+8+Proficiency.
Awkward wording aside, you probably want to avoid the pitfall of Battle Master Fighters and all Sorcerers where because you can pick from the whole menu up front, you'll grab the things you want most, so as you level, your leveling benefits turn into hotter and hotter garbage.
Spellcasters avoid this pitfall in general because spells are gated behind their spell level - you have to be a higher level to take them. See e.g. Rune Knight for a martial class with level gating.
// Since I'm making shove a bonus action while raging, I shouldn't have to lace damage into the shove action as a standard. The amount of charges is a tough one. Maybe half level + rage damage? Str mod + rage? STR + PROF?
If you're going to hand out these charges every time the Barbarian rages, as a practical matter your Barbarian shouldn't generally exceed 9 opportunities to shove per combat (since you haven't enabled Shoving as an OA). Also, bear in mind that Barbarians have Reckless, so shoving enemies prone isn't as useful for them as it is for other martials - you need to give them some extra incentive to shove, but you can do that when you design the maneuvers.
You probably don't need to hand out any charges, to be honest. Just let a Barbarian use a maneuver on every Shove they make while raging.
At level 6, you are immune to all effects that would move you while you are conscious.
//I think being immune to movement effect's is pretty lit as a level 6. It isn't tied to rage sadly and doesn't add to the mechanic. Moving the level 14 to here is an idea.
This is very bad. This is better:
At level 6, you have Advantage on Strength saves and checks even when you aren't raging. While you are raging, you have advantage on Charisma saves.
(Remember, the most common use of Charisma saves is resisting forced teleportation).
At level 10, you are able to use your athletics in opening doors, windows and other physical barriers. You are able to use your strength/athletics in attempting to destroy magical barriers. DC = 10 + spell level / or DC based on spellcaster?
// Look, if youre a charger, you can break down a door. Using athletics is a big leg up over just STR, unsure if add anything else to the physical part. But being able to shoulder check the arcane? That's kinda lit. Dunno how I can word it to make it make sense tbh or if it was balanced.
Here's the wording you want; it feels weak to me, so I was generous with the quantity and added an additional benefit.
As an action, choose one object or magical effect within your reach and make a Strength (Athletics) check. Each spell on the target (including the target, if the target is a spell) ends if your check beats that spell's DC, which equals 10 + twice the spell's level. You can do this a number of times per rest equal to your Strength modifier.
You now have resistance to Force damage.
At level 14, you are able to move up to half of your movement and shove all creatures within or adjacent of the line utilizing the same shove action.
//I'm stuck on this big line aoe shove. I dunno what a good capstone could be. I need help with this one. This could be pushed downward in the levels and have a much bigger oomph maybe.
This is just the L14 Elk Totem ability, so let's up-gun it to make it more worthwhile.
While raging, you can use an action or bonus action (if you use a bonus action to Rage, that bonus action can also be used for this) during your move to pass through the space of a creature no more than one size category larger than you. That creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus) or be knocked prone, pushed up to 5 feet horizontally in any direction, and take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier + your Rage bonus. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from creatures that fail this saving throw.
Or we can copy and invert catapult for more power; normally Barbarians are very bad at L14 but we don't need to follow tradition:
While raging, you can use an action or bonus action to Vigorously Engage. If you take the Vigorously Engage action, you become Vigorously Engaging until the end of your turn. While Vigorously Engaging, you can attempt to move through the space of any creature no more than one size category larger than you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw (DC8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus). On a success, you don't move through its space and cease to be Vigorously Engaging. On a failure, you move through its space, it is knocked prone, it is pushed up to 5 feet horizontally in any direction, and it takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier + your Rage bonus.
Tackle Maneuvers
You've suffered the pitfall. You need to gate better maneuvers behind higher levels to avoid front-loading.
Expansive Force - Spending 1 point : Using the same shove action, you may shove an additional creature within 5 feet of yourself . Spending 2 points, using the same shove action you may shove all creatures within a 15 foot cone.
Empowered Push - Spending 1 point: The target moves an additional 5 feet. Spending 2 points: the target moves instead an additional 10 feet.
Or
Biotic Charge - Spending 1 or 2 points unsure: The target moves an additional amount of feet equal to your Strength score.
Never try to move something a distance that isn't a multiple of 5 feet. 5*your Strength modifier in feet is an example of an acceptable distance.
Concussive Tackle - Spending 2 point: The target must make a Con save or be stunned for 1 round.
Ground Game - Spending 1 point: You may attempt to grapple after you shove someone prone.
Colossus Shunt - Spending 1 point: You are able shove Huge Sized creatures.
Never assume the size of the Barbarian.
Giga Impact - Spending up to 3 points: When you shove a creature, you deal 1d6 force damage per point.
Definitely do not hand out force damage for this. Bludgeoning damage is, if anything, more powerful in this context than force, and much more thematic. Definitely do base the amount of damage on the Barbarian's Strength modifier, proficiency bonus, and/or Rage bonus.
Break Balance - Spending 1 points: That target's movement is reduced by 10 feet until the end of their next turn.
Charger's Reach - Spend 1 point: You may target any creature within 10 feet of you with your Shove Action. Spend 2: you may target creature within 20 feet with your shove action
// I always need more maneuvers. I stole Biotic charge for Mass effect. Imagine hitting someone and just throwing them across the room seems kinda sick.
This is the current chalkboard version. Thoughts? Be gentle :)
I know a part of me wanted to include the maneuvers into this, the idea of just daisy chaining a bunch of effects in a line seems like an interesting and cool idea.
Level3: yeah, as part of rage is probably fine. The battle master pitfall isn't so bad if I were to lay in some level pre reqs and decent maneuvers. I sadly didn't mention any of that in the chalkboard build, maybe going into the eldritch invocation esque route that another user brought up.
Level 6: you said it was bad, but you don't explain why. If anything, I thought it was potentially too strong. I don't dislike your proposal, it remains on brand for sure.
Level 10: okay, so this is something I was looking at. I like the wording here. Ending magical effects feels super powerful but it is a whole action. I know I was wondering within this thread if the Barb should be able to shatter the magical effect or break through it.
Level 14: okay, another damage centric 14. I know my intention with this was to add maneuvers into the line, but, if damage seems to be the idea I guess that's what is more accepted.
Maneuvers.
5 x mod works actually. Ty.
You right about the huge sized thing. " you may shove creatures 2 sizes larger than your own instead of 1 this turn" or something around those lines then?
Bludgeoning does make more sense. Base number instead of dice then? I suppose so. Guess I shouldn't allow for any kind ability to pump it, though making things a simple maneuver added Instead points would fix this.
Thanks for the input. Sorry I didn't cleaning quote anything, dunno how while on mobile.
This gives me a lot to think about. I'm still unsure of my intentions with the level 14 tbh, maybe you have a different idea that could be on brand?
I know a part of me wanted to include the maneuvers into this, the idea of just daisy chaining a bunch of effects in a line seems like an interesting and cool idea.
At level 3, while raging you may take the shove action as a bonus action.
Make sure you also allow shoving as part of the bonus action you use to rage.
Additionally, When you rage you gain 'x' amount of charges that can be expended on special shove maneuvers that you learn as part of this feature. You learn 2 at this level, and 2 more at 6 and 10. If any of these would required DC, you would use STR+8+Proficiency.
Awkward wording aside, you probably want to avoid the pitfall of Battle Master Fighters and all Sorcerers where because you can pick from the whole menu up front, you'll grab the things you want most, so as you level, your leveling benefits turn into hotter and hotter garbage.
Spellcasters avoid this pitfall in general because spells are gated behind their spell level - you have to be a higher level to take them. See e.g. Rune Knight for a martial class with level gating.
// Since I'm making shove a bonus action while raging, I shouldn't have to lace damage into the shove action as a standard. The amount of charges is a tough one. Maybe half level + rage damage? Str mod + rage? STR + PROF?
If you're going to hand out these charges every time the Barbarian rages, as a practical matter your Barbarian shouldn't generally exceed 9 opportunities to shove per combat (since you haven't enabled Shoving as an OA). Also, bear in mind that Barbarians have Reckless, so shoving enemies prone isn't as useful for them as it is for other martials - you need to give them some extra incentive to shove, but you can do that when you design the maneuvers.
You probably don't need to hand out any charges, to be honest. Just let a Barbarian use a maneuver on every Shove they make while raging.
At level 6, you are immune to all effects that would move you while you are conscious.
//I think being immune to movement effect's is pretty lit as a level 6. It isn't tied to rage sadly and doesn't add to the mechanic. Moving the level 14 to here is an idea.
This is very bad. This is better:
At level 6, you have Advantage on Strength saves and checks even when you aren't raging. While you are raging, you have advantage on Charisma saves.
(Remember, the most common use of Charisma saves is resisting forced teleportation).
At level 10, you are able to use your athletics in opening doors, windows and other physical barriers. You are able to use your strength/athletics in attempting to destroy magical barriers. DC = 10 + spell level / or DC based on spellcaster?
// Look, if youre a charger, you can break down a door. Using athletics is a big leg up over just STR, unsure if add anything else to the physical part. But being able to shoulder check the arcane? That's kinda lit. Dunno how I can word it to make it make sense tbh or if it was balanced.
Here's the wording you want; it feels weak to me, so I was generous with the quantity and added an additional benefit.
As an action, choose one object or magical effect within your reach and make a Strength (Athletics) check. Each spell on the target (including the target, if the target is a spell) ends if your check beats that spell's DC, which equals 10 + twice the spell's level. You can do this a number of times per rest equal to your Strength modifier.
You now have resistance to Force damage.
At level 14, you are able to move up to half of your movement and shove all creatures within or adjacent of the line utilizing the same shove action.
//I'm stuck on this big line aoe shove. I dunno what a good capstone could be. I need help with this one. This could be pushed downward in the levels and have a much bigger oomph maybe.
This is just the L14 Elk Totem ability, so let's up-gun it to make it more worthwhile.
While raging, you can use an action or bonus action (if you use a bonus action to Rage, that bonus action can also be used for this) during your move to pass through the space of a creature no more than one size category larger than you. That creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus) or be knocked prone, pushed up to 5 feet horizontally in any direction, and take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier + your Rage bonus. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from creatures that fail this saving throw.
Or we can copy and invert catapult for more power; normally Barbarians are very bad at L14 but we don't need to follow tradition:
While raging, you can use an action or bonus action to Vigorously Engage. If you take the Vigorously Engage action, you become Vigorously Engaging until the end of your turn. While Vigorously Engaging, you can attempt to move through the space of any creature no more than one size category larger than you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw (DC8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus). On a success, you don't move through its space and cease to be Vigorously Engaging. On a failure, you move through its space, it is knocked prone, it is pushed up to 5 feet horizontally in any direction, and it takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier + your Rage bonus.
Tackle Maneuvers
You've suffered the pitfall. You need to gate better maneuvers behind higher levels to avoid front-loading.
Expansive Force - Spending 1 point : Using the same shove action, you may shove an additional creature within 5 feet of yourself . Spending 2 points, using the same shove action you may shove all creatures within a 15 foot cone.
Empowered Push - Spending 1 point: The target moves an additional 5 feet. Spending 2 points: the target moves instead an additional 10 feet.
Or
Biotic Charge - Spending 1 or 2 points unsure: The target moves an additional amount of feet equal to your Strength score.
Never try to move something a distance that isn't a multiple of 5 feet. 5*your Strength modifier in feet is an example of an acceptable distance.
Concussive Tackle - Spending 2 point: The target must make a Con save or be stunned for 1 round.
Ground Game - Spending 1 point: You may attempt to grapple after you shove someone prone.
Colossus Shunt - Spending 1 point: You are able shove Huge Sized creatures.
Never assume the size of the Barbarian.
Giga Impact - Spending up to 3 points: When you shove a creature, you deal 1d6 force damage per point.
Definitely do not hand out force damage for this. Bludgeoning damage is, if anything, more powerful in this context than force, and much more thematic. Definitely do base the amount of damage on the Barbarian's Strength modifier, proficiency bonus, and/or Rage bonus.
Break Balance - Spending 1 points: That target's movement is reduced by 10 feet until the end of their next turn.
Charger's Reach - Spend 1 point: You may target any creature within 10 feet of you with your Shove Action. Spend 2: you may target creature within 20 feet with your shove action
// I always need more maneuvers. I stole Biotic charge for Mass effect. Imagine hitting someone and just throwing them across the room seems kinda sick.
This is the current chalkboard version. Thoughts? Be gentle :)
You make some good points here quindraco, you called out some stuff I had meant to but forgot to bring up in my above post, and you picked up on a few things I had missed.
Additionally, When you rage you gain 'x' amount of charges that can be expended on special shove maneuvers that you learn as part of this feature. You learn 2 at this level, and 2 more at 6 and 10. If any of these would required DC, you would use STR+8+Proficiency.
Awkward wording aside, you probably want to avoid the pitfall of Battle Master Fighters and all Sorcerers where because you can pick from the whole menu up front, you'll grab the things you want most, so as you level, your leveling benefits turn into hotter and hotter garbage.
Spellcasters avoid this pitfall in general because spells are gated behind their spell level - you have to be a higher level to take them. See e.g. Rune Knight for a martial class with level gating.
[Sic]
Tackle Maneuvers
You've suffered the pitfall. You need to gate better maneuvers behind higher levels to avoid front-loading.
Yeah, you are absolutely right. I had previously mentioned a level prerequisite like Eldritch Invocations too. I’m glad you reiterated it. It’s essential.
// Since I'm making shove a bonus action while raging, I shouldn't have to lace damage into the shove action as a standard. The amount of charges is a tough one. Maybe half level + rage damage? Str mod + rage? STR + PROF?
If you're going to hand out these charges every time the Barbarian rages, as a practical matter your Barbarian shouldn't generally exceed 9 opportunities to shove per combat (since you haven't enabled Shoving as an OA). Also, bear in mind that Barbarians have Reckless, so shoving enemies prone isn't as useful for them as it is for other martials - you need to give them some extra incentive to shove, but you can do that when you design the maneuvers.
You probably don't need to hand out any charges, to be honest. Just let a Barbarian use a maneuver on every Shove they make while raging.
I’m inclined to agree. They should either:
Eliminate charges altogether.
Make the charges fewer, say only a number equal to their Rage damage, and then make the effects only cost 1 charge and be much more powerful like Arcane Archer shots.
Make the charges recoverable on a short rest and leave everything else the same.
Personally I’m in favor of #3. But #2 could also be really interesting, like shoving someone into another plane or something.
Biotic Charge - Spending 1 or 2 points unsure: The target moves an additional amount of feet equal to your Strength score.
Never try to move something a distance that isn't a multiple of 5 feet. 5*your Strength modifier in feet is an example of an acceptable distance.
Colossus Shunt - Spending 1 point: You are able shove Huge Sized creatures.
Never assume the size of the Barbarian.
I had meant to mention both of those and had forgotten, so I’m glad you brought them up.
Giga Impact - Spending up to 3 points: When you shove a creature, you deal 1d6 force damage per point.
Definitely do not hand out force damage for this. Bludgeoning damage is, if anything, more powerful in this context than force, and much more thematic. Definitely do base the amount of damage on the Barbarian's Strength modifier, proficiency bonus, and/or Rage bonus.
This is one I’m curious about. Why? What’s your reasoning for being anti force, and for not basing the damage on the number of points spent?
At level 6, you are immune to all effects that would move you while you are conscious.
//I think being immune to movement effect's is pretty lit as a level 6. It isn't tied to rage sadly and doesn't add to the mechanic. Moving the level 14 to here is an idea.
This is very bad. This is better:
At level 6, you have Advantage on Strength saves and checks even when you aren't raging. While you are raging, you have advantage on Charisma saves.
(Remember, the most common use of Charisma saves is resisting forced teleportation).
At level 10, you are able to use your athletics in opening doors, windows and other physical barriers. You are able to use your strength/athletics in attempting to destroy magical barriers. DC = 10 + spell level / or DC based on spellcaster?
// Look, if youre a charger, you can break down a door. Using athletics is a big leg up over just STR, unsure if add anything else to the physical part. But being able to shoulder check the arcane? That's kinda lit. Dunno how I can word it to make it make sense tbh or if it was balanced.
Here's the wording you want; it feels weak to me, so I was generous with the quantity and added an additional benefit.
As an action, choose one object or magical effect within your reach and make a Strength (Athletics) check. Each spell on the target (including the target, if the target is a spell) ends if your check beats that spell's DC, which equals 10 + twice the spell's level. You can do this a number of times per rest equal to your Strength modifier.
You now have resistance to Force damage.
Give me some time and I think we can improve even on those as to the wording.
You have advantage on Strength checks and saving throws. While you are raging you have advantage on all ability checks and saving throws to avoid or resist being forcibly moved or teleported against your will.
and:
Implacable (or Unwavering and Unstoppable)
10th-level Path of the Gridiron feature
Whenever you could make a shove attempt you can instead make a Strength (Athletics) against a nonmagical object or section of structure that is no more than one size larger than you and within your reach. The check is made against a DC equal to the object’s AC as described in chapter 8 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. On a success you break through the object or section of structure.
While you are raging, as an action you can make a Strength (Athletics) check against a magical barrier created as a spell effect, or an object or entryway under the effect of the arcane lock spell. The DC for the check is 10 + twice the level of the spell, on a success, the spell ends. Once you successfully use this ability you cannot use it again until the next time you enter a Rage.
Ooh I like those ideas. I think that adds some nice versatility and fills in some of the details I wasn't totally sure of in my pitch.
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Good, I’m glad. I thought you might. Now I think it’s ready to be written up into a rough draft. After a few editing passes over the next day or two it should be a finished first draft ready to playtest. 👍 Go team!
Oohh, how about the Path of the Wrastler?
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I was excited about this project and had another couple of ideas I wanted to share with youse. I figured this would be the simplest way, so I took the liberty of mocking up a rough draft for this subclass. There’s only one line of flavor text, and I suck at coming up with names so some of them might be lame, but this is what rough drafts are for. I hope you like it. Feel free to copy/paste the descriptions if you want to, and once you’ve spent a day or two tweaking things and adding in the flavor blurbs you’ll have a finished first draft ready to playtest. (I just ask for a shoutout if you ever decide to publish it one day.) Enjoy!
Path of the Wrastler
You really know how to throw your weight around, and your opponents.
Path of the Wrastler Features
Powerfully Built
3rd-level Path of the Wrastler feature
You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.
Strength of Rage
3rd-level Path of the Wrastler feature
Whenever you enter a Rage you can attempt to Shove a creature within reach as part of the same bonus action.
In addition, while raging you can attempt to Shove a creature as a bonus action on each of your turns.
Shove Specializations
6th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
You learn 2 of the Shove Specializations of your choice from the options listed below. You learn another Shove specialization when you reach 10th and 14th level in this class.
While you are raging, whenever you make a Shove attempt you can choose to use one of your Shove Specializations. You can only use one Shove specialization per turn.
Distant Shove
You can attempt to Shove a creature that is up to 10 feet away from you.
Group Shove
You can attempt to shove every creature within 5 feet. Make a single Strength (Athletics) check contested by the targets’ Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks (each target chooses the ability it uses). You succeed automatically against an incapacitated target. Each creature that fails its contest is either knocked prone, or moved 5 feet away from you (your choice).
Long Shove
Whenever you Shove a creature you can move them an additional 5 feet. If the creature moves at least 10 feet and collides with another creature or object it takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage. If it collides with a creature, that creature must make a Strength saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier. The creature takes 1d6 bludgeoning damage on a failed saving throw, or half as much damage on a success.
Simul-Shove
You can attempt to Shove 2 creatures within reach instead of one, make a separate Strength (Athletics) check against each target.
Powerhouse
10th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
You can attempt to Shove or Grapple creatures up to 2 sizes larger than you.
In addition, you have advantage on Strength (Athletics) checks you make to bend, break, push, drag or lift objects.
Quickshove
10th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
Whenever you can make an Opportunity Attack against a creature you can attempt to Shove that creature instead.
Shoving Strike
14th-level Path of the Wrastler feature
Once per turn, whenever you make a successful melee weapon attack against a creature you can choose to automatically Shove it.
And as usual, I hope this helps.
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Just to play devil's advocate here, in my play experience shove can really be a mixed bag, especially when your party has ranged attackers. Reducing movement or moving someone 5 feet can be useful in certain situations, but it's often inconsequential. It's a nice tool to have, but you'll find yourself in situations where it doesn't really help you out. Which is fine, I just think it is worth pointing out. In existing builds, shield Master is often overshadowed by many other options.
Looking at the subclass as a whole, I think this would be a lot more compelling if you built around the concept of a meteor/comet rather than the inspiring mechanic. What I mean is, everything doesn't need to revolve around the shove action. Something at 6 or 10 where the barbarian just streaks forward in a line - functionally more like a trample - would be really evocative. I think you're really hamstringing yourself creatively by fixating on everything being related to shoving.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Where were you last night!?! 😂😂
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Path of Fantasy Football * BIG WIP*
Suffused Tackle
At level 3, while raging you may take the shove action as a bonus action.
Additionally, When you rage you gain 'x' amount of charges that can be expended on special shove maneuvers that you learn as part of this feature. You learn 2 at this level, and 2 more at 6 and 10. If any of these would required DC, you would use STR+8+Proficiency.
// Since I'm making shove a bonus action while raging, I shouldn't have to lace damage into the shove action as a standard. The amount of charges is a tough one. Maybe half level + rage damage? Str mod + rage? STR + PROF?
At level 6, you are immune to all effects that would move you while you are conscious.
//I think being immune to movement effect's is pretty lit as a level 6. It isn't tied to rage sadly and doesn't add to the mechanic. Moving the level 14 to here is an idea.
At level 10, you are able to use your athletics in opening doors, windows and other physical barriers. You are able to use your strength/athletics in attempting to destroy magical barriers. DC = 10 + spell level / or DC based on spellcaster?
// Look, if youre a charger, you can break down a door. Using athletics is a big leg up over just STR, unsure if add anything else to the physical part. But being able to shoulder check the arcane? That's kinda lit. Dunno how I can word it to make it make sense tbh or if it was balanced.
At level 14, you are able to move up to half of your movement and shove all creatures within or adjacent of the line utilizing the same shove action.
//I'm stuck on this big line aoe shove. I dunno what a good capstone could be. I need help with this one. This could be pushed downward in the levels and have a much bigger oomph maybe.
Tackle Maneuvers
Or
// I always need more maneuvers. I stole Biotic charge for Mass effect. Imagine hitting someone and just throwing them across the room seems kinda sick.
This is the current chalkboard version. Thoughts? Be gentle :)
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Well, it’s halfway to a rough draft, and you got some good stuff in there.
Instead of flat immunity to forced movement I would give them advantage on checks & saves to resist it and then bump it to immunity at 14th as part of the cap.
I would add in a nova shove in addition to the cone, like the scenes in the movie when they have the hero surrounded in a beat down and Schwarzenegger stands up mightily and they all get pushed back.
I can help with the wording for the line shove, but not at the moment. Remind me later this evening.
That idea of being able to smash through magic barriers is cool, but simultaneously both niche and super powerful. I mean, would it just straight destroy a wall of force or globe of invulnerability? This might be your capstone.
All in all it’s a good start.
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I thought about splitting up the forced movement immunity as ADV and Immunity later on. I think my thoughts were that immunity at 6 wouldn't be super duper balance breaking if the barb was the only one doing it in this subclass. But, perhaps it is better splitting it up.
Yeah, full circle can be done. Thunderwave esque thing.
I haven't really figured out if the smash would destroy it or it would allow a chance for just the barb to get in. The first one is super strong, this barrier breaking monster. But I also thought using strength over athletics would be better-ish. The second one would probably be better, letting the barb not get caged in and just force himself through the barrier as opposed to shattering it. I dunno if it'd be a capstone if I go the 2nd route over the first one. But who knows.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
In regards to how many charges you get... I say just make it equal to your Barbarian level. Makes them nice and easy to track, and I feel like the maneuvers pitched are roughly equivalent to what you could do with Ki as a Monk... nothing so earth shaking that it would break the game if you could do it 10 times or more in a day.
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See I thought so too, but I became concerned when reading through my maneuvers. Hear me out.
Similar to BattleMaster there's probably no real limit on how many you can place on a shove. You could just lace them all up as written * though I can always say you can only use one per shove*, which I think is kind suck. That's a heck of a shove if you could just throw'em all up.
Equal to class level would work, but if I tie this all in with rage, things can get weird. Explosive. A level 6 barb has 4 rages a day, for example. Maybe they won't use all 4 but for the sake of expenditure let's assume they do, that's 24 charges that day, which would be similar to using the alternatives I've listed prior. But using full level as a modifier, you get so much points passing 8 things get really wacky and I doubt all the points would be used unless I decide inflate the costs.
If I kept Str and Rage mod for example, the highest you would get at the capstone for example is 8 on each rage vs 14 on each rage.
If I were to make more maneuvers while also incorporating level pre req's and more harsher charge usages, this would /hopefully/ cause more compelling decisionmaking.
With all this said, the amount is something I think I'd have to nail down during Playtesting I think
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Str mod + Rage damage = 11 at the top end, possibly 12 if they read the right book.
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You're not wrong, and I meant capstone for the subclass, my apologies.
Regardless, this is still much lower than choosing level.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Honestly, the exact number of points is only relevant in relation to how expensive the maneuvers are to use, and how frequently you want people to use them in an average of 6-8 3.5-round long combats per long rest. If you want people to spam them, keep them cheap and give them the extra points, but make sure they aren’t too powerful. If you want them to be really meaningful when used, but used sparingly then make the maneuvers cost a torch more, or reduce the number of points. But that’s all gonna shake out in playtesting. In the beginning you just need a baseline to work from so you can playtest. Why not pick the middle option of Half-Level+Str mod and go from there. Make the tie-in to Rage that they are only useable when raging. Keep it simple and build up from there when you start to see how it plays.
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HonestlyNobu, I had a flash of inspiration and a few minutes so I banged this out for you real quick:
Wadaya think?
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Make sure you also allow shoving as part of the bonus action you use to rage.
Awkward wording aside, you probably want to avoid the pitfall of Battle Master Fighters and all Sorcerers where because you can pick from the whole menu up front, you'll grab the things you want most, so as you level, your leveling benefits turn into hotter and hotter garbage.
Spellcasters avoid this pitfall in general because spells are gated behind their spell level - you have to be a higher level to take them. See e.g. Rune Knight for a martial class with level gating.
If you're going to hand out these charges every time the Barbarian rages, as a practical matter your Barbarian shouldn't generally exceed 9 opportunities to shove per combat (since you haven't enabled Shoving as an OA). Also, bear in mind that Barbarians have Reckless, so shoving enemies prone isn't as useful for them as it is for other martials - you need to give them some extra incentive to shove, but you can do that when you design the maneuvers.
You probably don't need to hand out any charges, to be honest. Just let a Barbarian use a maneuver on every Shove they make while raging.
This is very bad. This is better:
At level 6, you have Advantage on Strength saves and checks even when you aren't raging. While you are raging, you have advantage on Charisma saves.
(Remember, the most common use of Charisma saves is resisting forced teleportation).
Here's the wording you want; it feels weak to me, so I was generous with the quantity and added an additional benefit.
As an action, choose one object or magical effect within your reach and make a Strength (Athletics) check. Each spell on the target (including the target, if the target is a spell) ends if your check beats that spell's DC, which equals 10 + twice the spell's level. You can do this a number of times per rest equal to your Strength modifier.
You now have resistance to Force damage.
This is just the L14 Elk Totem ability, so let's up-gun it to make it more worthwhile.
While raging, you can use an action or bonus action (if you use a bonus action to Rage, that bonus action can also be used for this) during your move to pass through the space of a creature no more than one size category larger than you. That creature must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus) or be knocked prone, pushed up to 5 feet horizontally in any direction, and take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier + your Rage bonus. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from creatures that fail this saving throw.
Or we can copy and invert catapult for more power; normally Barbarians are very bad at L14 but we don't need to follow tradition:
While raging, you can use an action or bonus action to Vigorously Engage. If you take the Vigorously Engage action, you become Vigorously Engaging until the end of your turn. While Vigorously Engaging, you can attempt to move through the space of any creature no more than one size category larger than you. That creature must make a Strength saving throw (DC8 + your Strength bonus + your proficiency bonus). On a success, you don't move through its space and cease to be Vigorously Engaging. On a failure, you move through its space, it is knocked prone, it is pushed up to 5 feet horizontally in any direction, and it takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d12 + your Strength modifier + your Rage bonus.
You've suffered the pitfall. You need to gate better maneuvers behind higher levels to avoid front-loading.
Never try to move something a distance that isn't a multiple of 5 feet. 5*your Strength modifier in feet is an example of an acceptable distance.
Never assume the size of the Barbarian.
Definitely do not hand out force damage for this. Bludgeoning damage is, if anything, more powerful in this context than force, and much more thematic. Definitely do base the amount of damage on the Barbarian's Strength modifier, proficiency bonus, and/or Rage bonus.
Yknow what, this works.
It does what it needs to do and it can hit hard.
I know a part of me wanted to include the maneuvers into this, the idea of just daisy chaining a bunch of effects in a line seems like an interesting and cool idea.
But, this a base line once per rage, this works.
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
Ah big weigh in.
Level3: yeah, as part of rage is probably fine. The battle master pitfall isn't so bad if I were to lay in some level pre reqs and decent maneuvers. I sadly didn't mention any of that in the chalkboard build, maybe going into the eldritch invocation esque route that another user brought up.
Level 6: you said it was bad, but you don't explain why. If anything, I thought it was potentially too strong. I don't dislike your proposal, it remains on brand for sure.
Level 10: okay, so this is something I was looking at. I like the wording here. Ending magical effects feels super powerful but it is a whole action. I know I was wondering within this thread if the Barb should be able to shatter the magical effect or break through it.
Level 14: okay, another damage centric 14. I know my intention with this was to add maneuvers into the line, but, if damage seems to be the idea I guess that's what is more accepted.
Maneuvers.
5 x mod works actually. Ty.
You right about the huge sized thing. " you may shove creatures 2 sizes larger than your own instead of 1 this turn" or something around those lines then?
Bludgeoning does make more sense. Base number instead of dice then? I suppose so. Guess I shouldn't allow for any kind ability to pump it, though making things a simple maneuver added Instead points would fix this.
Thanks for the input. Sorry I didn't cleaning quote anything, dunno how while on mobile.
This gives me a lot to think about. I'm still unsure of my intentions with the level 14 tbh, maybe you have a different idea that could be on brand?
Waterdeep: Dragon Heist - DM
Storm King's Thunder - Level 12 Firbolg Shepard Druid, Galindan
Homebrewed Campaign - Level 6 Echo Knight/Level 2 Barbarian, Astra
I’m glad you like it. I figured you would.
You make some good points here quindraco, you called out some stuff I had meant to but forgot to bring up in my above post, and you picked up on a few things I had missed.
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Now that I’ve had a minute to process it, I wanted to discuss your suggestions a little more properly.
Yeah, you are absolutely right. I had previously mentioned a level prerequisite like Eldritch Invocations too. I’m glad you reiterated it. It’s essential.
I’m inclined to agree. They should either:
Personally I’m in favor of #3. But #2 could also be really interesting, like shoving someone into another plane or something.
I had meant to mention both of those and had forgotten, so I’m glad you brought them up.
This is one I’m curious about. Why? What’s your reasoning for being anti force, and for not basing the damage on the number of points spent?
Give me some time and I think we can improve even on those as to the wording.
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HonestlyNobu, these are for you:
and:
So wadaya think of those?
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