Invisibility is probably my 2nd favorite spell (behind find familiar), and what I like to do is create things to easily gain my favorite options without breaking the game. So, of course, I had the crazy idea of tuning invisibility down to cantrip level.
I think I am on to something and wanted some others' input on the idea (or if someone else has already gone through the trouble, feel free to share it. I can't imagine myself being the first person to take this route, after all).
Basic premise: Instead of you being invisible to ALL creatures, you are invisible to a scaling value number of creatures and ONLY those creatures... Powerful in the right situations and in the right hands, but still has obvious weaknesses that would make it more niche.
Is that enough, though? I am not entirely sure.
Here is my cobbled together example:
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
30 ft
COMPONENTS
S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 5 Minutes
SCHOOL
Illusion
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Invisible
You point at creature within range and you become invisible to that creature until the spell ends. The spell ends if the target is attacked or harmed by a spell or if you move more than 30ft from it.
The number of creatures you can target at once increases as you reach higher levels. At 5th level, it increases to two creatures, three creatures at 11th level, and four creatures at 17th level.
That's definitely overpowered. In many, situations this is just as good as invisibility, and in some it's actually better since the invisibility only ends when the target is attacked. You could pick off goons left and right, and the BBEG would have no idea who was doing it.
I would recommend making it so that it only lasts until the start of your next turn and making it an Intelligence saving throw (since that's usually what's used for illusions). That way it's still useful for making escapes, but is less reliable and generally more scaled to cantrip level.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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That's definitely overpowered. In many, situations this is just as good as invisibility, and in some it's actually better since the invisibility only ends when the target is attacked. You could pick off goons left and right, and the BBEG would have no idea who was doing it.
I would recommend making it so that it only lasts until the start of your next turn and making it an Intelligence saving throw (since that's usually what's used for illusions). That way it's still useful for making escapes, but is less reliable and generally more scaled to cantrip level.
I don't disagree, that would indeed be the "perfect" use-case scenario. And exactly what I envisioned a skilled and tactical player could do with it.
However, I would argue that that "perfect" scenario is extremely unlikely. How likely would a BBEG have only a small handful of weak minions that could just be "picked off"? How likely would they not have some sort of way to defeat invisibility at high tiers of play (for max coverage of the example cantrip)? How likely is a BBEG stupid enough to do nothing as their minions are clearly fighting something? How likely would they caster be able to survive solo in said BBEG's lair? Where is the rest of the party that is probably not invisible while this is happening?
That said, I do see the weakness in the language. How about something like "the spell breaks when you take overt actions such as making an attack, casting another spell, dashing, etc"? Combined with the limited range and target coverage?
Regarding the saving throw, I did think of having that originally, but I felt that it made things a little too complicated (or perhaps just me thinking too deeply). Do you know if they succeeded? Do they know if the spell was cast in them when they succeed? With the intent of it being used mostly OOC, and with other examples of "free" invisibility not including a saving throw, I opted to keep it simple for my example.
That's definitely overpowered. In many, situations this is just as good as invisibility, and in some it's actually better since the invisibility only ends when the target is attacked. You could pick off goons left and right, and the BBEG would have no idea who was doing it.
I would recommend making it so that it only lasts until the start of your next turn and making it an Intelligence saving throw (since that's usually what's used for illusions). That way it's still useful for making escapes, but is less reliable and generally more scaled to cantrip level.
I don't disagree, that would indeed be the "perfect" use-case scenario. And exactly what I envisioned a skilled and tactical player could do with it.
However, I would argue that that "perfect" scenario is extremely unlikely. How likely would a BBEG have only a small handful of weak minions that could just be "picked off"? How likely would they not have some sort of way to defeat invisibility at high tiers of play (for max coverage of the example cantrip)? How likely is a BBEG stupid enough to do nothing as their minions are clearly fighting something? How likely would they caster be able to survive solo in said BBEG's lair? Where is the rest of the party that is probably not invisible while this is happening?
That said, I do see the weakness in the language. How about something like "the spell breaks when you take overt actions such as making an attack, casting another spell, dashing, etc"? Combined with the limited range and target coverage?
Regarding the saving throw, I did think of having that originally, but I felt that it made things a little too complicated (or perhaps just me thinking too deeply). Do you know if they succeeded? Do they know if the spell was cast in them when they succeed? With the intent of it being used mostly OOC, and with other examples of "free" invisibility not including a saving throw, I opted to keep it simple for my example.
Even if the "perfect" scenario is unlikely, the "cantrip is just as good as a very useful 2nd level spell" scenario is incredibly likely, so it's still way too overpowered. Also, with spells, the general assumption is that you know when spells succeeds. It makes sense, and literally every DM I've ever played with or seen has ruled it as such. I couldn't point to a specific rule that says that's how it should be (not that there isn't one), but that's how it always seems to be played. Other "free" invisibility sources don't have saving throws because A, they don't target specific creatures, and B, they aren't cantrips.
Also, a good name for this spell might be blindspot, since you're making yourself invisible to specific creatures.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Even if the "perfect" scenario is unlikely, the "cantrip is just as good as a very useful 2nd level spell" scenario is incredibly likely, so it's still way too overpowered. Also, with spells, the general assumption is that you know when spells succeeds. It makes sense, and literally every DM I've ever played with or seen has ruled it as such. I couldn't point to a specific rule that says that's how it should be (not that there isn't one), but that's how it always seems to be played. Other "free" invisibility sources don't have saving throws because A, they don't target specific creatures, and B, they aren't cantrips.
Also, a good name for this spell might be blindspot, since you're making yourself invisible to specific creatures.
I am probably just blinded by bias, but I am not really seeing how only being invisible to 1-4 targets is just as good as being invisible to everyone. Unless you are referring to the scenarios that it is literally being made for (like sneaking past a 1 or 2 guards). If so, then I see your point. Not expending a spell slot in that case is extremely powerful, but then again, there are also other methods available. Probably. Sometimes.
The other part to the saving throw, at least with the way I saw it, is that when it is used out of combat as intended, you are just gonna cast it until it works anyway, right? And in combat, there are all the other factors at play, so it's not particularly good unless under those ideal circumstances.
Regarding the other sources, I would argue that they are still generally more powerful, since as we have pointed out, the spell is a cantrip. Meaning you still have to provide the components to cast it. Though I have intentionally omitted Vocal components for this reason, Somatic components would still be noticeable if you are not already hidden in some manner. This reasoning is also why I set the range 30ft. I felt like that would be enough to be useful in certain situations, but also not so crazy that you wouldn't be spotted down a longer hallway, for example.
And I love the name suggestion. Much better than the several names I have already cycled through. I just couldn't find the right way to put it, but that is perfect.
As I thought about it more and more before posting, I figured I should mention that I do see the wisdom in adding a saving throw, its just that to me, the implementation just didn't feel right (for the reasons mentioned previously).
Here are a couple of alternate ideas I thought of after a while:
Instead of save to resist, a save to break it? If they know that they have been influenced or suspect something, they can make a save to try and break the spell.
Or perhaps the resist save is passive perception vs. spell DC? I know that is basically the same thing, but the more static feel is a little more appealing to me, for some reason. And more thematic? If they creature has a higher passive perception, then they are less likely to miss something in their "Blindspot", right?
For a cantrip it shouldn’t last more than Concentration: 1 Round, 2 Rounds tops. Anything more than that and you’re in leveled spell territory. And it needs a Wis save since Wis is all about perception. Then it could last an additional round @ 5th, 11th, & 17th. More like this:
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
30 ft
COMPONENTS
S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 1 Round
SCHOOL
Illusion
ATTACK/SAVE
Wisdom
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Invisible
You point at creature within range and you become invisible to that creature until the end of your next turn. The spell ends if the target is attacked or has another spell cast on it, or if you move more than 30ft from the creature.
The duration increases by 1 round when you reach higher levels: At 5th level (2 Rounds), 11th level (3 Rounds), and at 17th level (4 Rounds).
Personally I'd just have it be self target only, lasts until end of next turn, while invisible by this you cannot attack or cast any spells or force any creature to make a saving throw. Requires concentration. Ends immediately if come into direct contact with another creature or anything they are wearing or carrying.
Lets you sneak by, can keep casting to stay invisible, but doesn't let you get the drop on anybody. Good for sneaking and thieving, useless for pickpocketing or combat since you must drop it first and so you're no longer invisible attacking with advantage. And useless for anything else. Can be useful to hide for positioning but harsh on action economy unless you can hide as a bonus, such as a Rogue. So really, in combat, it can help you escape, and that's about it.
There you go. Invisibility at-will, no cheese, nothing overpowered, and simple.
You're welcome.
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For a cantrip it shouldn’t last more than Concentration: 1 Round, 2 Rounds tops. Anything more than that and you’re in leveled spell territory. And it needs a Wis save since Wis is all about perception. Then it could last an additional round @ 5th, 11th, & 17th. More like this:
I am not saying you are wrong, I do see the logic, its just that that completely destroys the intent of the spell, I think. The 5 minutes was basically a placeholder so I have no problem shortening it, but not to that degree. Only 1 target, 6-24 seconds out of combat is nearly useless in my eyes, and in combat, it is a worse disengage (that may not even work if you included the save, which I am still against for this reason) at best.
Worst case, if it does end up being too useful after a bit of playtesting even after all the changes, then I'll change it into a magic item or something. Not a huge deal.
Current form with bits from this discussion, not that anyone else is 100% onboard with it:
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
30 ft
COMPONENTS
S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 1 Minute
SCHOOL
Illusion
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Invisible
You attempt to obscure your presence from a creature with range. If your Spell Save DC is greater than the target's Passive Perception, you become invisible to that creature until the spell ends.
The spell ends on the target if you take any overt action (such as attacking, casting a spell, or dashing), if you move more than 30ft from the target, or if the target succeeds on a Intelligence (Investigation) check against your Spell Save DC to search for you.
The number of creatures you can target at once increases as you reach higher levels. At 5th level, it increases to two creatures, three creatures at 11th level, and four creatures at 17th level.
Cyb3r, you made some good points. I wish to revise my previous suggestion:
Momentary Invisibility
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
30 ft
COMPONENTS
S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 1 Round
SCHOOL
Illusion
ATTACK/SAVE
Wisdom
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Invisible
You point at creature within range and you along with anything you are wearing or carrying becomes invisible to that creature until the end of your next turn. The spell ends under the following conditions:
If the target is attacked or has another spell cast on it.
If you make an attack, use an ability that forces a target to make a saving throw, or interact with an object.
If you cast any spell other than this one.
If you move more than 30ft from the target.
The duration increases by 1 round when you reach higher levels: At 5th level (2 Rounds), 11th level (3 Rounds), and at 17th level (4 Rounds).
For a cantrip it shouldn’t last more than Concentration: 1 Round, 2 Rounds tops. Anything more than that and you’re in leveled spell territory. And it needs a Wis save since Wis is all about perception. Then it could last an additional round @ 5th, 11th, & 17th. More like this:
I am not saying you are wrong, I do see the logic, its just that that completely destroys the intent of the spell, I think. The 5 minutes was basically a placeholder so I have no problem shortening it, but not to that degree. Only 1 target, 6-24 seconds out of combat is nearly useless in my eyes, and in combat, it is a worse disengage (that may not even work if you included the save, which I am still against for this reason) at best.
Worst case, if it does end up being too useful after a bit of playtesting even after all the changes, then I'll change it into a magic item or something. Not a huge deal.
Current form with bits from this discussion, not that anyone else is 100% onboard with it:
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
30 ft
COMPONENTS
S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 1 Minute
SCHOOL
Illusion
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Invisible
You attempt to obscure your presence from a creature with range. If your Spell Save DC is greater than the target's Passive Perception, you become invisible to that creature until the spell ends.
The spell ends on the target if you take any overt action (such as attacking, casting a spell, or dashing), if you move more than 30ft from the target, or if the target succeeds on a Intelligence (Investigation) check against your Spell Save DC to search for you.
The number of creatures you can target at once increases as you reach higher levels. At 5th level, it increases to two creatures, three creatures at 11th level, and four creatures at 17th level.
I think what you want this spell to do/be is more powerful than a cantrip, probably a 1st-level spell. The versions that Cyb3rM1nd and I are suggesting are more inline with a cantrip level spell.
Yeah I'm not a fan of the "targeted" invisibility. It's a pain for a DM to then track who can and cannot see you especially if different targets have different passive perceptions. Bearing in mind, you still have to use Stealth to not be detected, so while it may be at advantage, that's still more checks of the passive perceptions. As a DM it'd be an annoyance. The biggest benefit of the Invisibility spell wasn't just "sneaking" but rather the fact that it lets you sneak into position and then launch something at the enemy such as an attack, with advantage. For clerics it was great to partner with Inflict Wounds - high damage attack at advantage. Cast at higher level to make your whole group invisible for an ambush, etc. It may break the invisibility after, but you get that advantage before it does.
My version of the cantrip lets you use the sneaky aspect but without the combat cheese potential. It doesn't break on an attack, it prevents the attack. So, it's not useful for advantage in combat or group ambushes. But need to slip past a guard to steal from a desk or drawer? Sure. You're just rolling a stealth with advantage, that's all, and that is super easy to obtain by other means anyway, so nothing OP there.
Just seems easier. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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That being said, I can see why a Sposta's version would be a bit more balanced.
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I think what you want this spell to do/be is more powerful than a cantrip, probably a 1st-level spell. The versions that Cyb3rM1nd and I are suggesting are more inline with a cantrip level spell.
I don't think it is all that crazy though? I guess I am just confused at where we are trying the draw the line. What part is making it overpowered for a cantrip?
Is it the duration? If so, then why make it so you can constantly cast your version? Other than looking more crazy in a crowd for casting a spell every 6 seconds, the result is the same.
Is it the targeted portion? I find it is hard to argue that that is stronger than full invisibility. Hell, if it wasn't just me being stubborn on the flavor of the spell, I would pick Cyb3rM1nd's example any day.
The lack of saving throw? The precedent is to investigate illusions because they are effecting the environment, right? We are just saying targeted invisibility because that is the shortest way to explain the mechanics, it does not necessarily mean you are directly invading the creature's brain with magic (to me at least).
The advantage/disadvantage of being hidden? As Cyb3rM1nd points out, stealth and surprise is easy enough to get, but why waste the action in combat to try to get advantage when you can just attack that turn and the next? It does not really make sense to me. The ambush potential I can totally see, but you are just one person of the whole party, the rest of which would probably be hidden by mundane means and would probably fair just as well.
And if happens to be all that together, then we will just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
First of all, being invisible at all is already outside of cantrip range to begin with, so it has to have some heavy duty restrictions or else it’s a non starter.
Your version is also way too complicated for a cantrip. Cantrips are simple little effects a caster can manifest. Yours is far from simple.
Being able to become invisible to more than a single creature is one of the major factors, that blows it well out of cantrip territory. One creature would have to be your limit for a cantrip. I can think of exactly 1 cantrip that can target multiple creatures, and that’s acid splash.
Yes, it is typical to have to investigate an illusion, but since your spell is targeting a specific person and not actually obfuscating your appearance in general, then it has to be “invading that creature’s mind” to a certain degree or it just doesn’t make any sense. That requires a saving throw.
Also, why in the world would one ever cast this spell in a crowd?!? Simply blend in with the crowd….
A spell like the version I wrote is wa—ay useful for slipping past a single guard, for avoiding that monster/NPC who’s out looking for you, or for (repeatedly) getting the drop on a specific creature in combat, as well as totally ducking out on an opportunity attack from a specific creature. I can think of many of ways to use the spell. And that’s all from one single cantrip slot. That’s huge. In fact, even my version is pro’ly still a bit OP for a cantrip. It’s a cantrip for crying out loud.
First of all, being invisible at all is already outside of cantrip range to begin with, so it has to have some heavy duty restrictions or else it’s a non starter.
Again, invisibility was just the fastest means to an end, but I get it.
Yes, it is typical to have to investigate an illusion, but since your spell is targeting a specific person and not actually obfuscating your appearance in general, then it has to be “invading that creature’s mind” to a certain degree or it just doesn’t make any sense. That requires a saving throw.
The way I was wrapping my head around it was that it was more of a magic version of "active camouflage", just directed towards a single person. Not sure if that makes any more sense, but whatever. Does not make a difference, mechanically speaking.
For the sake of the discussion, let's drop the notion of invisibility. What sort of phrasing/mechanics would achieve the stealth goals in a similar manner? To be "invisible" without being invisible.
"The target ignores your presence"?
"The target does not remember your presence as long as you do not stick around"?
If it were an “active camo” effect surrounding the caster it would work on everyone.
The best thing in D&D for what you want is to be invisible condition for what you describe. It is what it is.
Maybe we’re going about this from the wrong direction. What exactly is it you want this spell to accomplish? What niche do you envision it filling? I don’t mean in D&D terms, just in plain language. What do you want it to do?
Maybe we’re going about this from the wrong direction. What exactly is it you want this spell to accomplish? What niche do you envision it filling? I don’t mean in D&D terms, just in plain language. What do you want it to do?
"To enable the quick and sneaky type of shenanigans for a character that would probably not normally be sneaky" is basically it. Sneak past a couple of guards, swipe something from a barkeep without them paying too much attention, get away from a botched pickpocket attempt, that sort of thing.
For the next minute you gain a 1d4 bonus to all Dexterity (Stealth / Sleight of Hand) checks, and you can take the Hide action even when in full sight of another creature.
The bonus conferred by this spell increases by 1 when you reach higher levels: At 5th level (1d4 +1), 11th level (1d4 +2), and at 17th level (1d4 +3).
That’s probably still too much for a cantrip, but it’s at least in the ballpark and pretty much what you said you wanted.
That’s probably still too much for a cantrip, but it’s at least in the ballpark and pretty much what you said you wanted.
Yes, I very much like the direction this is taking. Out of curiosity, why 1d4 + bonus specifically? Over, say, advantage/no scaling, scale dice rather than scaling bonus (1d6, 1d8, 1d10), or even disadvantage to opposing perception checks?
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Invisibility is probably my 2nd favorite spell (behind find familiar), and what I like to do is create things to easily gain my favorite options without breaking the game. So, of course, I had the crazy idea of tuning invisibility down to cantrip level.
I think I am on to something and wanted some others' input on the idea (or if someone else has already gone through the trouble, feel free to share it. I can't imagine myself being the first person to take this route, after all).
Basic premise: Instead of you being invisible to ALL creatures, you are invisible to a scaling value number of creatures and ONLY those creatures... Powerful in the right situations and in the right hands, but still has obvious weaknesses that would make it more niche.
Is that enough, though? I am not entirely sure.
Here is my cobbled together example:
You point at creature within range and you become invisible to that creature until the spell ends. The spell ends if the target is attacked or harmed by a spell or if you move more than 30ft from it.
The number of creatures you can target at once increases as you reach higher levels. At 5th level, it increases to two creatures, three creatures at 11th level, and four creatures at 17th level.
That's definitely overpowered. In many, situations this is just as good as invisibility, and in some it's actually better since the invisibility only ends when the target is attacked. You could pick off goons left and right, and the BBEG would have no idea who was doing it.
I would recommend making it so that it only lasts until the start of your next turn and making it an Intelligence saving throw (since that's usually what's used for illusions). That way it's still useful for making escapes, but is less reliable and generally more scaled to cantrip level.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I don't disagree, that would indeed be the "perfect" use-case scenario. And exactly what I envisioned a skilled and tactical player could do with it.
However, I would argue that that "perfect" scenario is extremely unlikely. How likely would a BBEG have only a small handful of weak minions that could just be "picked off"? How likely would they not have some sort of way to defeat invisibility at high tiers of play (for max coverage of the example cantrip)? How likely is a BBEG stupid enough to do nothing as their minions are clearly fighting something? How likely would they caster be able to survive solo in said BBEG's lair? Where is the rest of the party that is probably not invisible while this is happening?
That said, I do see the weakness in the language. How about something like "the spell breaks when you take overt actions such as making an attack, casting another spell, dashing, etc"? Combined with the limited range and target coverage?
Regarding the saving throw, I did think of having that originally, but I felt that it made things a little too complicated (or perhaps just me thinking too deeply). Do you know if they succeeded? Do they know if the spell was cast in them when they succeed? With the intent of it being used mostly OOC, and with other examples of "free" invisibility not including a saving throw, I opted to keep it simple for my example.
Even if the "perfect" scenario is unlikely, the "cantrip is just as good as a very useful 2nd level spell" scenario is incredibly likely, so it's still way too overpowered. Also, with spells, the general assumption is that you know when spells succeeds. It makes sense, and literally every DM I've ever played with or seen has ruled it as such. I couldn't point to a specific rule that says that's how it should be (not that there isn't one), but that's how it always seems to be played. Other "free" invisibility sources don't have saving throws because A, they don't target specific creatures, and B, they aren't cantrips.
Also, a good name for this spell might be blindspot, since you're making yourself invisible to specific creatures.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I am probably just blinded by bias, but I am not really seeing how only being invisible to 1-4 targets is just as good as being invisible to everyone. Unless you are referring to the scenarios that it is literally being made for (like sneaking past a 1 or 2 guards). If so, then I see your point. Not expending a spell slot in that case is extremely powerful, but then again, there are also other methods available. Probably. Sometimes.
The other part to the saving throw, at least with the way I saw it, is that when it is used out of combat as intended, you are just gonna cast it until it works anyway, right? And in combat, there are all the other factors at play, so it's not particularly good unless under those ideal circumstances.
Regarding the other sources, I would argue that they are still generally more powerful, since as we have pointed out, the spell is a cantrip. Meaning you still have to provide the components to cast it. Though I have intentionally omitted Vocal components for this reason, Somatic components would still be noticeable if you are not already hidden in some manner. This reasoning is also why I set the range 30ft. I felt like that would be enough to be useful in certain situations, but also not so crazy that you wouldn't be spotted down a longer hallway, for example.
And I love the name suggestion. Much better than the several names I have already cycled through. I just couldn't find the right way to put it, but that is perfect.
As I thought about it more and more before posting, I figured I should mention that I do see the wisdom in adding a saving throw, its just that to me, the implementation just didn't feel right (for the reasons mentioned previously).
Here are a couple of alternate ideas I thought of after a while:
For a cantrip it shouldn’t last more than Concentration: 1 Round, 2 Rounds tops. Anything more than that and you’re in leveled spell territory. And it needs a Wis save since Wis is all about perception. Then it could last an additional round @ 5th, 11th, & 17th. More like this:
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Personally I'd just have it be self target only, lasts until end of next turn, while invisible by this you cannot attack or cast any spells or force any creature to make a saving throw. Requires concentration. Ends immediately if come into direct contact with another creature or anything they are wearing or carrying.
Lets you sneak by, can keep casting to stay invisible, but doesn't let you get the drop on anybody. Good for sneaking and thieving, useless for pickpocketing or combat since you must drop it first and so you're no longer invisible attacking with advantage. And useless for anything else. Can be useful to hide for positioning but harsh on action economy unless you can hide as a bonus, such as a Rogue. So really, in combat, it can help you escape, and that's about it.
There you go. Invisibility at-will, no cheese, nothing overpowered, and simple.
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I am not saying you are wrong, I do see the logic, its just that that completely destroys the intent of the spell, I think. The 5 minutes was basically a placeholder so I have no problem shortening it, but not to that degree. Only 1 target, 6-24 seconds out of combat is nearly useless in my eyes, and in combat, it is a worse disengage (that may not even work if you included the save, which I am still against for this reason) at best.
Worst case, if it does end up being too useful after a bit of playtesting even after all the changes, then I'll change it into a magic item or something. Not a huge deal.
Current form with bits from this discussion, not that anyone else is 100% onboard with it:
You attempt to obscure your presence from a creature with range. If your Spell Save DC is greater than the target's Passive Perception, you become invisible to that creature until the spell ends.
The spell ends on the target if you take any overt action (such as attacking, casting a spell, or dashing), if you move more than 30ft from the target, or if the target succeeds on a Intelligence (Investigation) check against your Spell Save DC to search for you.
The number of creatures you can target at once increases as you reach higher levels. At 5th level, it increases to two creatures, three creatures at 11th level, and four creatures at 17th level.
Thank you. I agree.
Though I will admit that I was going for a different flavor based on a different reference with the individual targets vs self.
Cyb3r, you made some good points. I wish to revise my previous suggestion:
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I think what you want this spell to do/be is more powerful than a cantrip, probably a 1st-level spell. The versions that Cyb3rM1nd and I are suggesting are more inline with a cantrip level spell.
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Yeah I'm not a fan of the "targeted" invisibility. It's a pain for a DM to then track who can and cannot see you especially if different targets have different passive perceptions. Bearing in mind, you still have to use Stealth to not be detected, so while it may be at advantage, that's still more checks of the passive perceptions. As a DM it'd be an annoyance. The biggest benefit of the Invisibility spell wasn't just "sneaking" but rather the fact that it lets you sneak into position and then launch something at the enemy such as an attack, with advantage. For clerics it was great to partner with Inflict Wounds - high damage attack at advantage. Cast at higher level to make your whole group invisible for an ambush, etc. It may break the invisibility after, but you get that advantage before it does.
My version of the cantrip lets you use the sneaky aspect but without the combat cheese potential. It doesn't break on an attack, it prevents the attack. So, it's not useful for advantage in combat or group ambushes. But need to slip past a guard to steal from a desk or drawer? Sure. You're just rolling a stealth with advantage, that's all, and that is super easy to obtain by other means anyway, so nothing OP there.
Just seems easier. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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That being said, I can see why a Sposta's version would be a bit more balanced.
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I don't think it is all that crazy though? I guess I am just confused at where we are trying the draw the line. What part is making it overpowered for a cantrip?
Is it the duration? If so, then why make it so you can constantly cast your version? Other than looking more crazy in a crowd for casting a spell every 6 seconds, the result is the same.
Is it the targeted portion? I find it is hard to argue that that is stronger than full invisibility. Hell, if it wasn't just me being stubborn on the flavor of the spell, I would pick Cyb3rM1nd's example any day.
The lack of saving throw? The precedent is to investigate illusions because they are effecting the environment, right? We are just saying targeted invisibility because that is the shortest way to explain the mechanics, it does not necessarily mean you are directly invading the creature's brain with magic (to me at least).
The advantage/disadvantage of being hidden? As Cyb3rM1nd points out, stealth and surprise is easy enough to get, but why waste the action in combat to try to get advantage when you can just attack that turn and the next? It does not really make sense to me. The ambush potential I can totally see, but you are just one person of the whole party, the rest of which would probably be hidden by mundane means and would probably fair just as well.
And if happens to be all that together, then we will just have to agree to disagree, I suppose.
First of all, being invisible at all is already outside of cantrip range to begin with, so it has to have some heavy duty restrictions or else it’s a non starter.
Your version is also way too complicated for a cantrip. Cantrips are simple little effects a caster can manifest. Yours is far from simple.
Being able to become invisible to more than a single creature is one of the major factors, that blows it well out of cantrip territory. One creature would have to be your limit for a cantrip. I can think of exactly 1 cantrip that can target multiple creatures, and that’s acid splash.
Yes, it is typical to have to investigate an illusion, but since your spell is targeting a specific person and not actually obfuscating your appearance in general, then it has to be “invading that creature’s mind” to a certain degree or it just doesn’t make any sense. That requires a saving throw.
Also, why in the world would one ever cast this spell in a crowd?!? Simply blend in with the crowd….
A spell like the version I wrote is wa—ay useful for slipping past a single guard, for avoiding that monster/NPC who’s out looking for you, or for (repeatedly) getting the drop on a specific creature in combat, as well as totally ducking out on an opportunity attack from a specific creature. I can think of many of ways to use the spell. And that’s all from one single cantrip slot. That’s huge. In fact, even my version is pro’ly still a bit OP for a cantrip. It’s a cantrip for crying out loud.
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Again, invisibility was just the fastest means to an end, but I get it.
The way I was wrapping my head around it was that it was more of a magic version of "active camouflage", just directed towards a single person. Not sure if that makes any more sense, but whatever. Does not make a difference, mechanically speaking.
For the sake of the discussion, let's drop the notion of invisibility. What sort of phrasing/mechanics would achieve the stealth goals in a similar manner? To be "invisible" without being invisible.
"The target ignores your presence"?
"The target does not remember your presence as long as you do not stick around"?
"An aura that makes people look the other way"?
If it were an “active camo” effect surrounding the caster it would work on everyone.
The best thing in D&D for what you want is to be invisible condition for what you describe. It is what it is.
Maybe we’re going about this from the wrong direction. What exactly is it you want this spell to accomplish? What niche do you envision it filling? I don’t mean in D&D terms, just in plain language. What do you want it to do?
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"To enable the quick and sneaky type of shenanigans for a character that would probably not normally be sneaky" is basically it. Sneak past a couple of guards, swipe something from a barkeep without them paying too much attention, get away from a botched pickpocket attempt, that sort of thing.
That’s probably still too much for a cantrip, but it’s at least in the ballpark and pretty much what you said you wanted.
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Yes, I very much like the direction this is taking. Out of curiosity, why 1d4 + bonus specifically? Over, say, advantage/no scaling, scale dice rather than scaling bonus (1d6, 1d8, 1d10), or even disadvantage to opposing perception checks?