I would like a steer on a couple of house rules I am considering for an upcoming campaign. I have trialed both of these rules in one-shots and they seemed okay, but I would like the advice of those more experienced than I (most of you) to steer me in the right direction before I commit them to a larger campaign.

What do you like about these proposals? What do you not? How could they be exploited? What checks and / or balances should I put in place to better balance them? What existing rules could I use instead to get the same / similar effect?

Thank you for your consideration.

Finesse Weapons.

I have had a few players highlight (or bemoan) the lack of finesse weapons in D&D for Dexterity based characters, to that end I propose the following:

You can use any melee weapon you are proficient in, that doesn't already have the finesse property, with dexterity instead of strength. In these instances because we are straying away from how the weapon was designed to be used, we need to borrow from the improvised weapons rules. If a player uses a melee weapon that doesn’t have the finesse property with dexterity instead of strength the damage becomes 1d4, in addition if it has the thrown property it has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. The weapon's other properties all remain unchanged.

For example; a Cleric wants to wield a mace with dexterity, the mace is still worth 5 gp, it still weighs 4 lbs and it still deals bludgeoning damage but the damage die becomes 1d4 rather than 1d6.

If that same Cleric now wants to throw a javelin with dexterity, the javelin's value remains 5 sp, it still weighs 2 lbs and it still deals piercing damage but the damage die becomes 1d4 rather than 1d6 and the range becomes 20/60 rather than 30/120.

Spell Scrolls.

Secondly, spell scroll usage seems restrictive, this proposal aims to open spell scrolls up to more users, and hopefully add some utility to cantrip scrolls, but in doing so I increase the risk in each use.

1. If you have a spellcasting class or subclass and the spell is both on your class’ spell list(s) as well as of a level you could normally cast, then you can cast the spell from the spell scroll as usual.

2. If you have a spellcasting class or subclass and; (a) The spell is on your class’ spell list(s) but of a higher level than you can normally cast. Or (b) the spell is of a level you can normally cast but is not on your class’ spell list(s). Then you must make an ability check using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully. The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll and you roll on the Scroll Mishap table.

3. If you; (a) Have a spellcasting class or subclass and the spell is not on your class’ spell list(s) as well as being of a higher level than you could normally cast. Or (b) you do not have a spellcasting class or subclass. Then you must make an ability check, at disadvantage, using your spellcasting ability to determine whether you cast it successfully (use INT if you do not have a spellcasting class or subclass). The DC equals 10 + the spell’s level. On a failed check, the spell disappears from the scroll and you roll on the Scroll Mishap table.

I don't really understand who the finesse change is for. They want to use a mace gracefully to deal less damage? They want to do a precision strike with a maul? Is this just a rogue that wants to use other weapons? If so, I think its a lot safer - and really, easier to believe in - if you give them individual magic items like a club that has the finesse property. Or make some kind of enforcer subclass that can SA with STR. The idea that just anyone can use DEX to attack with a 10-foot halberd - regardless of damage - just feels wrong. I don't think it breaks the game, I just feel like there's probably a better solution that would make more sense in-game.

STR really doesn't have a lot to do in 5e while DEX is the superstar of stats. I'd be careful with any change that makes this imbalance even greater.

The scroll thing seems fine to me. I agree that the existing rules are pretty restrictive and when I give the party a scroll, it's because I want them to use it.

Thank you for your feedback, really useful, and for my part I could have done a better job articulating what I am trying to achieve.

For a bit of context, I usually DM for my kids and their friends and it was they who brought me into this game (such that I've never actually been a player which is why I value your collective experience and advice so much, my thanks is genuine). As I'm doing this for my kids, my gut reaction when they ask if they can do something is to say "yes" and figure out how to make it happen for them. It's their game and I want them to enjoy it. That being said, kids tend not to deal with unfairness (or perceived unfairness) as well as adults so when I introduce house rules I aim for them to be as general as possible, affecting all characters equally.

As for how this became a "problem" that needed solving, I had a Dex based player who only had simple weapon proficiency and was disheartened by only having daggers available. At the time, as you suggest, I gave them a magic weapon with finesse, but that felt a little like railroading equipment choices and I'm trying to give them options.

I guess I'm looking for a balanced way to say "yes you can use Dex but there's a cost".

I agree that Dex is a pretty potent stat and that Str doesn't do a lot, which makes this is a tricky one to manage. How do I help these Dex characters without negatively impacting on Str characters? My logic was drop the damage to that of a dagger, and the balance shouldn't be too badly affected. That was when I saw the improvised weapons rules and shamelessly stole the thrown bit from them.

Your point on the halberd is absolutely fair though and one I hadn't considered. Perhaps I need to add more restrictions such as only applying this ruling to weapons that don't have the heavy or special properties.

Or is this still too far and maybe I'm better of sticking with magic or [insert fantasy metal] weapons instead, or perhaps a feat, What do you think?

I would suggest that the best solution would be, rather than trying to twist the rules around to make everything a finesse weapon - which is a big change that could have lots of unpredictable effects as well as being complicated for you to manage - to instead add an opportunity (soon) into the game for that character to discover something that gives them proficiency in martial weapons. Then they have options, and you don't have to try to mess around with dozens of things figuring out how to alter them. It could be a magic item, like a pair of bracers that grant the proficiency once attuned, a book that magically grants the ability if you study it (use manual of gainful exercise as a template), or a friendly NPC who can teach it, grant it as a blessing from the gods - all sorts of ways.

The added context is helpful. If you are DMing for kids, this seems just fine to me. The important thing for young players is that they are having fun and engaging their imaginations. You still need to make sure your rules don't allow a "squeaky wheel" to outshine the other players, and don't say yes to every character option because D&D can teach some good lessons about tradeoffs and opportunity cost, but there's a lot more leeway in a kid's game.

So, intentionally late, but one thing we did around that was take the ability off the weapon and put it in the hand of the player as a feat, basically (slightly different system, but the mechanics are roughly the same enough). So suddenly we have folks who have finesse with weapons not intended to have it under the current rules -- but they have to make a decision to get it that means they may not have something else (so, for example, if they have a special ability choice, they would choose finesse instead of the special ability).

It is a bit odd, but because of the way we structured it, those ho choose to really get into a few weapons become much more flexible in their use than those who don't.

Thank you for your responses, some really useful ideas there. I will do my best not too allow a "squeaky wheel" to outshine the other players, and your feedback is helpful in preventing that.

AEDorsay, I'm intrigued by your suggestion. Am I characterising this correctly by reading that certain weapon properties (like finesse) are removed from weapons entirely and are instead picked up as feats which are then applied to weapons afterwards? Could you provide a little more detail or point me in the direction of where I could find this rule?

Quote from Dragon_Shark >>

Thank you for your responses, some really useful ideas there. I will do my best not too allow a "squeaky wheel" to outshine the other players, and your feedback is helpful in preventing that.

AEDorsay, I'm intrigued by your suggestion. Am I characterising this correctly by reading that certain weapon properties (like finesse) are removed from weapons entirely and are instead picked up as feats which are then applied to weapons afterwards? Could you provide a little more detail or point me in the direction of where I could find this rule?

 

That is pretty much the idea, but it isn't a published rule of any sort, merely a suggestion.

The system my folks are preparing to use in my next campaign has taken a lot of those kinds of things and grouped the in to a class of special abilities called Combat Orders (and we did the same with metamagic stuff under Mysteries) that characters get as they advance. The closest parallel I can envision is Feats, so that's why I said that.

For the finesse weapons thing, is that even a homebrew rule?  I think that's just Rules As Written with a strict interpretation that since they're not using the weapon as intended it now "bears no resemblance to a weapon" (at least not in the way they're attempting to use it), and then everything else is just RAW improvised weapons. 

For the scrolls thing, that all seems fine, you can mess with scroll rules pretty easily since the DM controls availability of scrolls. 

If you mean mine, Dr

Quote from DrJawaPhD >>

For the finesse weapons thing, is that even a homebrew rule?  I think that's just Rules As Written with a strict interpretation that since they're not using the weapon as intended it now "bears no resemblance to a weapon" (at least not in the way they're attempting to use it), and then everything else is just RAW improvised weapons. 

For the scrolls thing, that all seems fine, you can mess with scroll rules pretty easily since the DM controls availability of scrolls. 

if you mean mine, then yes, it is homebrew. Essentially, the only way to get finesse on a weapon or other property is to take a feat that applies to that specific weapon type. Without the feat, the weapon still is usable, but it lacks that extra feature. 

It is part of a larger system we use to more effectively balance magic vs martial and that essentially takes the homebrew structure here and enables greater customization of characters while still retaining a core identity for each class. Basically a complete rewrite of the class system, but it takes the base idea of feats and runs with it.

Quote from DrJawaPhD >>

For the finesse weapons thing, is that even a homebrew rule?  I think that's just Rules As Written with a strict interpretation that since they're not using the weapon as intended it now "bears no resemblance to a weapon" (at least not in the way they're attempting to use it), and then everything else is just RAW improvised weapons. 

 This still requires homebrew because an improvised melee weapon always uses STR. There is no such thing as an improvised weapon with finesse in the RAW.