Not a fan of a 'half caster' Monk. It seems that they have them casting spells from the Sorcerer. A couple of the abilities seem decent enough such as casting a Cantrip or spell in lieu of your attack action. However, you still get your unarmed bonus attacks. Of course you have to wait until 17th level to use this ability when casting spells, and even then you are only limited to casting First and Second level spells. 🤷🏿♂️
As a 1st or initial draft to allow ideas and tweaks it fine. This has a very, very long way to go. Compared to other subclasses in the PHB, you are giving up a lot to just say you can do magic. The magic available is just is not a fair trade.
You don't have to wait until 17th level. If you can cast spells as a Monk, you can always just use Action for Magic Action and then Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows. Indeed, the level 17 feature doesn't actually do anything useful since Monks only get one Extra Attack. So you'd be sacrificing all of your Attack Action attacks to cast a spell - which you just could have done with a Magic Action.
Likewise, while casting a cantrip in lieu of an attack is useful for an Eldritch Knight, Valor Bard or Bladesinger, it's much less useful for a Monk since the primary use is for a spell like True Strike (which can't be used with Unarmed Strike).
The main value of the sub-class is likely spells like Shield that are cast as a Reaction or, at very high levels, Emanations that trigger off of attacks (Monks get 5 attacks/turn).
You don't have to wait until 17th level. If you can cast spells as a Monk, you can always just use Action for Magic Action and then Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows. Indeed, the level 17 feature doesn't actually do anything useful since Monks only get one Extra Attack. So you'd be sacrificing all of your Attack Action attacks to cast a spell - which you just could have done with a Magic Action.
That's only partially true. Casting a Cantrip only cost you one of your attack actions, since you get two at 5th level. So you can cast a Cantrip, then attack and then bonus unarmed attack.
17th level is inexcusable to force you to use both of your attack actions. I seems they were assuming the Monk gets three attacks in the attack action, instead of only two. I wouldn't mind the sacrifice but they would have to up the spell level to at least 3rd level. The conversion stuff seems okay I guess. As does the ability to get advantage saving throws to maintain concentration spells.
You don't have to wait until 17th level. If you can cast spells as a Monk, you can always just use Action for Magic Action and then Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows. Indeed, the level 17 feature doesn't actually do anything useful since Monks only get one Extra Attack. So you'd be sacrificing all of your Attack Action attacks to cast a spell - which you just could have done with a Magic Action.
That's only partially true. Casting a Cantrip only cost you one of your attack actions, since you get two at 5th level. So you can cast a Cantrip, then attack and then bonus unarmed attack.
17th level is inexcusable to force you to use both of your attack actions. I seems they were assuming the Monk gets three attacks in the attack action, instead of only two. I wouldn't mind the sacrifice but they would have to up the spell level to at least 3rd level. The conversion stuff seems okay I guess. As does the ability to get advantage saving throws to maintain concentration spells.
The issue with the 17th level feature is that there's no functional difference between "I take the Attack Action, sacrifice both my attacks and cast a spell" vs. "I take the Magic Action and cast a spell" - except, of course, you can cast any level spell with the Magic Action rather than just a level 1/2 spell.
In terms of casting a cantrip, this tends to be much less useful for a Monk than a Fighter since Monks normally focus on Unarmed attacks (at least once they start getting Wraps/Tattoos that boost Unarmed) and thus can't use weapon cantrips like True Strike.
You don't have to wait until 17th level. If you can cast spells as a Monk, you can always just use Action for Magic Action and then Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows. Indeed, the level 17 feature doesn't actually do anything useful since Monks only get one Extra Attack. So you'd be sacrificing all of your Attack Action attacks to cast a spell - which you just could have done with a Magic Action.
That's only partially true. Casting a Cantrip only cost you one of your attack actions, since you get two at 5th level. So you can cast a Cantrip, then attack and then bonus unarmed attack.
17th level is inexcusable to force you to use both of your attack actions. I seems they were assuming the Monk gets three attacks in the attack action, instead of only two. I wouldn't mind the sacrifice but they would have to up the spell level to at least 3rd level. The conversion stuff seems okay I guess. As does the ability to get advantage saving throws to maintain concentration spells.
The issue with the 17th level feature is that there's no functional difference between "I take the Attack Action, sacrifice both my attacks and cast a spell" vs. "I take the Magic Action and cast a spell" - except, of course, you can cast any level spell with the Magic Action rather than just a level 1/2 spell.
In terms of casting a cantrip, this tends to be much less useful for a Monk than a Fighter since Monks normally focus on Unarmed attacks (at least once they start getting Wraps/Tattoos that boost Unarmed) and thus can't use weapon cantrips like True Strike.
Like I mentioned above, that's not the issue the issue is 17th level making you use both of your attacks in the attack actions to cast a mere 1st or 2nd level spell. The writer was probably thinking the monk gets potentially 5 attacks anyway and can spare two of them. I don't believe that they dedicated any time to determining that the Monk only gets two attacks in the attack action and only one unarmed bonus action unless spend an FP for FoB's.
I don't see how casting the cantrip is less useful, when you get to keep one of your attack actions. Firebolt or Ray of Frost would be excellent damage attacks, followed by your single attack action and then unarmed strike. It makes for a good variety of attack options against creatures you wouldn't want to attack with your hand (slime, ooze etc.), or who are resistant to certain damage types. Wraps are meh and I don't know what you mean by Tattoos boosting unarmed attacks.
The actual feature should probably read somthing like "when you use the magic action to cast a first- or second-level spell, you can also make one weapon or unarmed attack as part of the same action". This give the same effect of the EK feature, except the EK could also replace the additional attack with a cantrip, and this wording dose not allow it.
I don't see where Eldritch Knight also replaces the additional attack with a cantrip. I only exact wording of the Mystic.
An Eldritch Knight at level 18 has two options for spellcasting with the Attack action: replacing one attack with a cantrip, or replacing two attacks with a level 1-2 spell. Since they can make three attacks with an Attack action, they can do both of those things in the same Attack action if they want.
The proposal is for this Monk subclass to also allow replacing two attacks with a level 1-2 spell, but also allow making an additional attack when they do that. Because the Monk doesn't have the Eldritch Knight's level 7 feature, they can't replace that additional attack with a cantrip; they can only make an actual attack with it.
Edit: that last part didn't make sense, never mind
The monk does have the ability to replace one attack with a cantrip, the reason they can't do both with the wording I suggested is because they won't be taking the Attack action, but the a Magic action.
I don't see where Eldritch Knight also replaces the additional attack with a cantrip. I only exact wording of the Mystic.
An Eldritch Knight at level 18 has two options for spellcasting with the Attack action: replacing one attack with a cantrip, or replacing two attacks with a level 1-2 spell. Since they can make three attacks with an Attack action, they can do both of those things in the same Attack action if they want.
Makes sense. I wonder if that was intentional or overlooked. Either way the Mystic Monk's capstone is more of a hindrance, than a benefit. Heck I would even take two cantrips, instead of taking the two attack actions, but that's probably opposite
I don't see where Eldritch Knight also replaces the additional attack with a cantrip. I only exact wording of the Mystic.
An Eldritch Knight at level 18 has two options for spellcasting with the Attack action: replacing one attack with a cantrip, or replacing two attacks with a level 1-2 spell. Since they can make three attacks with an Attack action, they can do both of those things in the same Attack action if they want.
Makes sense. I wonder if that was intentional or overlooked. Either way the Mystic Monk's capstone is more of a hindrance, than a benefit. Heck I would even take two cantrips, instead of taking the two attack actions, but that's probably opposite
As was mentioned elsewhere, the Mystic Monk capstone is a non-feature, due to the fact it was copied verbatim from the Eldrich Knight without accounting for the Fighter having three attacks at this level, while the Monk only have two.
Compare it to the Valor Bard and Bladesinger capstone, which allows them to make one attack as a bonus action after casting a spell as an action. So all three of these gish subclasses get to cast a spell and make one attack on their turn, with the full caster having to spend their bonus action to do so, and the EK limited to first or second level spells.
But the Monk already gets to make an attack as a bonus action regardless (or three attacks by spending a focus point), thanks to the 2024 rules removing the restriction for the bonus attack to come after the Attack action. This is why I suggested for the feature to allow the Monk to make an additional attack as part of the same action. Other possible fix could be to allow the Mystic Monk to make Flurry of Blows without spending a focus point after casting a spell. I'm not sure which option makes more sense it terms game balance.
The other irony of the capstone is that by the top tier, any damaging 1st level spell is almost certainly less damage than your standard cantrip. So it's not even an upgrade in many cases.
One one hand, this avoids a lot of the pitfalls of the old Four Elements monk, which required ki points to cast spells, ate all your features just to gain them, and gave you four spells total at level 20. So at least this sucks a lot less than that did.
On the other hand, it still seems like it's trying to be a 1/3 caster blaster which is just never going to work because your spell progression is so far behind that doing damage with spells will never be worth the action to cast them. It's really utility spells (and cantrips) that make EK and AT shine, and a casting monk should probably lean more into that. Pulling from the cleric/divine list would be a lot more interesting and make it distinct from the other martial caster subclasses.
Still it's just a rough draft. Like I said before, I don't think the person who wrote was all that interested in diligence. I think converting points, should be moved to fourth or fifth. Move fighting to style to fifth. Move Center Focus to 5th. Add maybe on or two more things between 10th and 17th level. The capstone could be worded differently, such as "When you take the magic action, you can a 1st or 2nd level spell, requiring an action. In addition, you may take an attack as part of this action"
The capstone could be worded differently, such as "When you take the magic action, you can a 1st or 2nd level spell, requiring an action. In addition, you may take an attack as part of this action"
I would probably word it as "When you take the Magic action to cast a 1st or 2nd level spell, you may also make an unarmed strike as part of that action." If you were going for the full Attack action, you could instead write "you may also take the Attack action as part of that action."
Personally, I don't think the level 17 feature should involve attack/casting at all. As noted, the level 17 feature is redundant because any Monk can already sacrifice two attacks to cast a spell (and not one limited to first/second level). Unlike Fighters, whose Action forms the overwhelming majority of their damage output, Monks get most of their damage from the Bonus Action.
So I'd rather they do something like: "When you take the Magic Action, you may also use Patient Defense or Step of the Wind as part of that Action." It's far more Monk-centric and permits the same basic element of getting to cast a spell and do something else.
Patient Defense, and what not is already addressed at an earlier level. I would prefer causing damage at 17th level, so they will have to amend it so I can take one of my attack actions
Patient Defense, and what not is already addressed at an earlier level. I would prefer causing damage at 17th level, so they will have to amend it so I can take one of my attack actions
Even on an Eldritch Knight (whose version actually makes sense), the 17th level feature is mainly about trading off damage for utility. It's tough to do more damage than your two attacks would with an at-level first/second spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Not a fan of a 'half caster' Monk. It seems that they have them casting spells from the Sorcerer. A couple of the abilities seem decent enough such as casting a Cantrip or spell in lieu of your attack action. However, you still get your unarmed bonus attacks. Of course you have to wait until 17th level to use this ability when casting spells, and even then you are only limited to casting First and Second level spells. 🤷🏿♂️
As a 1st or initial draft to allow ideas and tweaks it fine. This has a very, very long way to go. Compared to other subclasses in the PHB, you are giving up a lot to just say you can do magic. The magic available is just is not a fair trade.
You don't have to wait until 17th level. If you can cast spells as a Monk, you can always just use Action for Magic Action and then Bonus Action for Flurry of Blows. Indeed, the level 17 feature doesn't actually do anything useful since Monks only get one Extra Attack. So you'd be sacrificing all of your Attack Action attacks to cast a spell - which you just could have done with a Magic Action.
Likewise, while casting a cantrip in lieu of an attack is useful for an Eldritch Knight, Valor Bard or Bladesinger, it's much less useful for a Monk since the primary use is for a spell like True Strike (which can't be used with Unarmed Strike).
The main value of the sub-class is likely spells like Shield that are cast as a Reaction or, at very high levels, Emanations that trigger off of attacks (Monks get 5 attacks/turn).
That's only partially true. Casting a Cantrip only cost you one of your attack actions, since you get two at 5th level. So you can cast a Cantrip, then attack and then bonus unarmed attack.
17th level is inexcusable to force you to use both of your attack actions. I seems they were assuming the Monk gets three attacks in the attack action, instead of only two. I wouldn't mind the sacrifice but they would have to up the spell level to at least 3rd level. The conversion stuff seems okay I guess. As does the ability to get advantage saving throws to maintain concentration spells.
The issue with the 17th level feature is that there's no functional difference between "I take the Attack Action, sacrifice both my attacks and cast a spell" vs. "I take the Magic Action and cast a spell" - except, of course, you can cast any level spell with the Magic Action rather than just a level 1/2 spell.
In terms of casting a cantrip, this tends to be much less useful for a Monk than a Fighter since Monks normally focus on Unarmed attacks (at least once they start getting Wraps/Tattoos that boost Unarmed) and thus can't use weapon cantrips like True Strike.
Like I mentioned above, that's not the issue the issue is 17th level making you use both of your attacks in the attack actions to cast a mere 1st or 2nd level spell. The writer was probably thinking the monk gets potentially 5 attacks anyway and can spare two of them. I don't believe that they dedicated any time to determining that the Monk only gets two attacks in the attack action and only one unarmed bonus action unless spend an FP for FoB's.
I don't see how casting the cantrip is less useful, when you get to keep one of your attack actions. Firebolt or Ray of Frost would be excellent damage attacks, followed by your single attack action and then unarmed strike. It makes for a good variety of attack options against creatures you wouldn't want to attack with your hand (slime, ooze etc.), or who are resistant to certain damage types. Wraps are meh and I don't know what you mean by Tattoos boosting unarmed attacks.
“Hey WoTC! Gimme a monk feature with NOTHING”
The actual feature should probably read somthing like "when you use the magic action to cast a first- or second-level spell, you can also make one weapon or unarmed attack as part of the same action". This give the same effect of the EK feature, except the EK could also replace the additional attack with a cantrip, and this wording dose not allow it.
I don't see where Eldritch Knight also replaces the additional attack with a cantrip. I only see the exact wording of the Mystic.
An Eldritch Knight at level 18 has two options for spellcasting with the Attack action: replacing one attack with a cantrip, or replacing two attacks with a level 1-2 spell. Since they can make three attacks with an Attack action, they can do both of those things in the same Attack action if they want.
The proposal is for this Monk subclass to also allow replacing two attacks with a level 1-2 spell, but also allow making an additional attack when they do that. Because the Monk doesn't have the Eldritch Knight's level 7 feature, they can't replace that additional attack with a cantrip; they can only make an actual attack with it.Edit: that last part didn't make sense, never mind
pronouns: he/she/they
The monk does have the ability to replace one attack with a cantrip, the reason they can't do both with the wording I suggested is because they won't be taking the Attack action, but the a Magic action.
Makes sense. I wonder if that was intentional or overlooked. Either way the Mystic Monk's capstone is more of a hindrance, than a benefit. Heck I would even take two cantrips, instead of taking the two attack actions, but that's probably opposite
As was mentioned elsewhere, the Mystic Monk capstone is a non-feature, due to the fact it was copied verbatim from the Eldrich Knight without accounting for the Fighter having three attacks at this level, while the Monk only have two.
Compare it to the Valor Bard and Bladesinger capstone, which allows them to make one attack as a bonus action after casting a spell as an action. So all three of these gish subclasses get to cast a spell and make one attack on their turn, with the full caster having to spend their bonus action to do so, and the EK limited to first or second level spells.
But the Monk already gets to make an attack as a bonus action regardless (or three attacks by spending a focus point), thanks to the 2024 rules removing the restriction for the bonus attack to come after the Attack action. This is why I suggested for the feature to allow the Monk to make an additional attack as part of the same action. Other possible fix could be to allow the Mystic Monk to make Flurry of Blows without spending a focus point after casting a spell. I'm not sure which option makes more sense it terms game balance.
The other irony of the capstone is that by the top tier, any damaging 1st level spell is almost certainly less damage than your standard cantrip. So it's not even an upgrade in many cases.
One one hand, this avoids a lot of the pitfalls of the old Four Elements monk, which required ki points to cast spells, ate all your features just to gain them, and gave you four spells total at level 20. So at least this sucks a lot less than that did.
On the other hand, it still seems like it's trying to be a 1/3 caster blaster which is just never going to work because your spell progression is so far behind that doing damage with spells will never be worth the action to cast them. It's really utility spells (and cantrips) that make EK and AT shine, and a casting monk should probably lean more into that. Pulling from the cleric/divine list would be a lot more interesting and make it distinct from the other martial caster subclasses.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Still it's just a rough draft. Like I said before, I don't think the person who wrote was all that interested in diligence. I think converting points, should be moved to fourth or fifth. Move fighting to style to fifth. Move Center Focus to 5th. Add maybe on or two more things between 10th and 17th level. The capstone could be worded differently, such as "When you take the magic action, you can a 1st or 2nd level spell, requiring an action. In addition, you may take an attack as part of this action"
I would probably word it as "When you take the Magic action to cast a 1st or 2nd level spell, you may also make an unarmed strike as part of that action."
If you were going for the full Attack action, you could instead write "you may also take the Attack action as part of that action."
I think limiting it to an unarmed strike is too restrictive, and no way they would allow both a Magic Action and a full Attack Action.
Personally, I don't think the level 17 feature should involve attack/casting at all. As noted, the level 17 feature is redundant because any Monk can already sacrifice two attacks to cast a spell (and not one limited to first/second level). Unlike Fighters, whose Action forms the overwhelming majority of their damage output, Monks get most of their damage from the Bonus Action.
So I'd rather they do something like: "When you take the Magic Action, you may also use Patient Defense or Step of the Wind as part of that Action." It's far more Monk-centric and permits the same basic element of getting to cast a spell and do something else.
Patient Defense, and what not is already addressed at an earlier level. I would prefer causing damage at 17th level, so they will have to amend it so I can take one of my attack actions
Even on an Eldritch Knight (whose version actually makes sense), the 17th level feature is mainly about trading off damage for utility. It's tough to do more damage than your two attacks would with an at-level first/second spell.