I was read the hobbit when I was around 6 by my dad and I demanded to read the Silmarillion because I thought it was cool but was forced to read the Lord of the rings first. I got to them leaving the shire, but stopped because it was too slow. I picked it back up when I was older and read through it like crazy
I was read the hobbit when I was around 6 by my dad and I demanded to read the Silmarillion because I thought it was cool but was forced to read the Lord of the rings first. I got to them leaving the shire, but stopped because it was too slow. I picked it back up when I was older and read through it like crazy
The Silmarillion is still my fave.
Which part of the Silmarillion is your favourite? One of the things I like about it is how all the parts are connected, yet feel distinct - like a mythology of collected stories translated and arranged by a third-party other than the writer(s)… which is sort of exactly what happened.
Personally, I rather enjoy the first part - the most mythological section involving the creation of the world before the coming of men and elves. Of the two different Vala who defied Eru Ilúvatar‘s grand plan, and how Aulë came returned to the plan, while Melkor continued to defy it. It’s a beautiful love-letter to real world creation legends and makes for a rather fascinating opening act to his fictional world.
I was read the hobbit when I was around 6 by my dad and I demanded to read the Silmarillion because I thought it was cool but was forced to read the Lord of the rings first. I got to them leaving the shire, but stopped because it was too slow. I picked it back up when I was older and read through it like crazy
The Silmarillion is still my fave.
Which part of the Silmarillion is your favourite? One of the things I like about it is how all the parts are connected, yet feel distinct - like a mythology of collected stories translated and arranged by a third-party other than the writer(s)… which is sort of exactly what happened.
Personally, I rather enjoy the first part - the most mythological section involving the creation of the world before the coming of men and elves. Of the two different Vala who defied Eru Ilúvatar‘s grand plan, and how Aulë came returned to the plan, while Melkor continued to defy it. It’s a beautiful love-letter to real world creation legends and makes for a rather fascinating opening act to his fictional world.
My favourite part is the whole Middle Earth war and fighting over the Silmarils while Morgoth takes his moves right from the Thanos playbook and sits on his ass for nearly all of it. The Valinor and early days of the Elves are cool too. Personally I’ve never liked the Music of the Ainur bit, but otherwise I can safely say I like pretty much the whole thing.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
I was read the hobbit when I was around 6 by my dad and I demanded to read the Silmarillion because I thought it was cool but was forced to read the Lord of the rings first. I got to them leaving the shire, but stopped because it was too slow. I picked it back up when I was older and read through it like crazy
The Silmarillion is still my fave.
Which part of the Silmarillion is your favourite? One of the things I like about it is how all the parts are connected, yet feel distinct - like a mythology of collected stories translated and arranged by a third-party other than the writer(s)… which is sort of exactly what happened.
Personally, I rather enjoy the first part - the most mythological section involving the creation of the world before the coming of men and elves. Of the two different Vala who defied Eru Ilúvatar‘s grand plan, and how Aulë came returned to the plan, while Melkor continued to defy it. It’s a beautiful love-letter to real world creation legends and makes for a rather fascinating opening act to his fictional world.
My favourite part is the whole Middle Earth war and fighting over the Silmarils while Morgoth takes his moves right from the Thanos playbook and sits on his ass for nearly all of it. The Valinor and early days of the Elves are cool too. Personally I’ve never liked the Music of the Ainur bit, but otherwise I can safely say I like pretty much the whole thing.
I liked Beren and Luthien, Turin Turambar and Nienor and the death of Thingol and the Fall of Doriath.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
I absolutely loved reading this. It is really deep, thought provoking, and well thought out. I would actually appreciate if you DID go on.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
Music being very “human” is exactly why I don’t like the musical creation concept. Creation of a universe should not have anything remotely human about it in any way. It should be an unknowable act by an overgod, far beyond anything that our pathetic minds can comprehend the smallest iota of.
Yeah, Tolkien loved music and so do I. I still think that the creation of a universe by it is unutterably stupid.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
I absolutely loved reading this. It is really deep, thought provoking, and well thought out. I would actually appreciate if you DID go on.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
Music being very “human” is exactly why I don’t like the musical creation concept. Creation of a universe should not have anything remotely human about it in any way. It should be an unknowable act by an overgod, far beyond anything that our pathetic minds can comprehend the smallest iota of.
Yeah, Tolkien loved music and so do I. I still think that the creation of a universe by it is unutterably stupid.
As aforestated, music is something that goes beyond transcending all human culture—it permeates nature itself. Animals, with their calls and songs are the most known of nature’s musicians, but nature itself produces a cacophony of percussion and wind instruments that date back to the very beginning of creation. Rain falling on trees; the clap of thunder; wind rustling fallen leaves; the creaking of branches.
Tolkien and Lewis are not trying to make an unknowable god - they’re not Lovecraft or other modernists who postulate that divinity is something unknowable. They’re Christians, and it’s fundamental to their belief system that God imbued Man and all existence with His own essence. The full breadth of their God is unknowable—but it’s critical to their faith that small fragments of their God, and thus the Gods of their world, is, in fact, knowable insofar as that fragment is reflected in existence.
In wanting to show that the God’s power transcends existence itself, they would want creation to embody something that transcends every single element of the world; something fundamentally universal and partially obtainable by all creatures, and partially mastered by sapient creatures. That’s sound; that’s music. Something which existed ere the first creatures walked the world; something expanded upon once animal first gave voice to the universal song of wind and water.
In interpreting another’s work, it is important to consider the author’s view - while you might think divinity is fully and completely unknowable, Tolkien and Lewis fundamentally did not. In light of the authors, it’s an incredibly clear and poignant method of creation, conveying more of the author’s very existence than many—if not all—other passages in their works.
In a kinda connected light, there is a push that Tolkien might become a Catholic Saint
I know there’s a new push for this every so often, but it doesn’t seem to have gained much, if any, traction in the circles that might result in Tolkien’s canonisation. It’s certainly an interesting story to follow, and one of those things that might never happen, might happen in decades, or could occur rather suddenly.
Though, I feel Tolkien would insist on a bit of pedantic nitpicking - in this hypothetical situation, he would be “canonised” as a saint, he wouldn’t “become” a saint. In the Catholic tradition saints are created by God, and simply are saints. The Church can only canonise someone - adding them to the canons of saints - formally recognising them as the saint they always were.
I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
Music being very “human” is exactly why I don’t like the musical creation concept. Creation of a universe should not have anything remotely human about it in any way. It should be an unknowable act by an overgod, far beyond anything that our pathetic minds can comprehend the smallest iota of.
Yeah, Tolkien loved music and so do I. I still think that the creation of a universe by it is unutterably stupid.
As aforestated, music is something that goes beyond transcending all human culture—it permeates nature itself. Animals, with their calls and songs are the most known of nature’s musicians, but nature itself produces a cacophony of percussion and wind instruments that date back to the very beginning of creation. Rain falling on trees; the clap of thunder; wind rustling fallen leaves; the creaking of branches.
Tolkien and Lewis are not trying to make an unknowable god - they’re not Lovecraft or other modernists who postulate that divinity is something unknowable. They’re Christians, and it’s fundamental to their belief system that God imbued Man and all existence with His own essence. The full breadth of their God is unknowable—but it’s critical to their faith that small fragments of their God, and thus the Gods of their world, is, in fact, knowable insofar as that fragment is reflected in existence.
In wanting to show that the God’s power transcends existence itself, they would want creation to embody something that transcends every single element of the world; something fundamentally universal and partially obtainable by all creatures, and partially mastered by sapient creatures. That’s sound; that’s music. Something which existed ere the first creatures walked the world; something expanded upon once animal first gave voice to the universal song of wind and water.
In interpreting another’s work, it is important to consider the author’s view - while you might think divinity is fully and completely unknowable, Tolkien and Lewis fundamentally did not. In light of the authors, it’s an incredibly clear and poignant method of creation, conveying more of the author’s very existence than many—if not all—other passages in their works.
Thanks. That actually makes sense. I honestly never thought about it enough to think about the Christian influences. Which explains why I heartily dislike it, I’m a devout atheist.
I still think it’s stupid for my stated reasons, and my opinion has been quadrupled over the Christian influences, but eh. Everyone’s allowed their own opinion.
Thanks. That actually makes sense. I honestly never thought about it enough to think about the Christian influences. Which explains why I heartily dislike it, I’m a devout atheist.
I still think it’s stupid for my stated reasons, and my opinion has been quadrupled over the Christian influences, but eh. Everyone’s allowed their own opinion.
Well, if you allow yourself to “heartily dislike” a portion of the franchise simply because it has Christian influences, I have some bad news for you, which I’ll let Tolkien himself break:
The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.
The works are, at their core, one of the great works of Christian literature - perhaps not as over in their design as The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, or anything Lewis ever wrote, but Tolkien’s roots are far from subtle. I would posture that one need not be Catholic, or even religious, to be able to appreciate the fact that the single most important part of the work to Tolkien was not the language, not his writing, not his characters, and not his plot—it was the religious experience he found in writing the series.
Even to an atheist or one of a different faith, seeing the hand of Tolkien’s Catholicism in the works should not be a point of derision, but a point of purely academic fascination. It is through those elements you learn more not just about the world, but about the author himself; they provide an empathetic link to a man who created not only a world, but reimagined an entire genera of literature.
Thanks. That actually makes sense. I honestly never thought about it enough to think about the Christian influences. Which explains why I heartily dislike it, I’m a devout atheist.
I still think it’s stupid for my stated reasons, and my opinion has been quadrupled over the Christian influences, but eh. Everyone’s allowed their own opinion.
Well, if you allow yourself to “heartily dislike” a portion of the franchise simply because it has Christian influences, I have some bad news for you, which I’ll let Tolkien himself break:
The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.
The works are, at their core, one of the great works of Christian literature - perhaps not as over in their design as The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, or anything Lewis ever wrote, but Tolkien’s roots are far from subtle. I would posture that one need not be Catholic, or even religious, to be able to appreciate the fact that the single most important part of the work to Tolkien was not the language, not his writing, not his characters, and not his plot—it was the religious experience he found in writing the series.
Even to an atheist or one of a different faith, seeing the hand of Tolkien’s Catholicism in the works should not be a point of derision, but a point of purely academic fascination. It is through those elements you learn more not just about the world, but about the author himself; they provide an empathetic link to a man who created not only a world, but reimagined an entire genera of literature.
Which explains why there’s no clerics in Tolkien.
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The Silmarillion is still my fave.
Which part of the Silmarillion is your favourite? One of the things I like about it is how all the parts are connected, yet feel distinct - like a mythology of collected stories translated and arranged by a third-party other than the writer(s)… which is sort of exactly what happened.
Personally, I rather enjoy the first part - the most mythological section involving the creation of the world before the coming of men and elves. Of the two different Vala who defied Eru Ilúvatar‘s grand plan, and how Aulë came returned to the plan, while Melkor continued to defy it. It’s a beautiful love-letter to real world creation legends and makes for a rather fascinating opening act to his fictional world.
My favourite part is the whole Middle Earth war and fighting over the Silmarils while Morgoth takes his moves right from the Thanos playbook and sits on his ass for nearly all of it. The Valinor and early days of the Elves are cool too. Personally I’ve never liked the Music of the Ainur bit, but otherwise I can safely say I like pretty much the whole thing.
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I was not overly fond of the Music of Ainur bit the first time I read it, bit it grew on me some. I think a large part of that was drawing the parallel between Arda’s creation via song and Asian singing the world of Narnia into existence in The Magician’s Nephew. It’s a cute little connection between two works written by best friends, showing a shared belief in the power of language and song itself to shape entire worlds.
I just don’t like it cause the idea that music existed before pretty much everything is just… Pushing the fantasy line too far for me. It’s utterly ridiculous imo, and really stupid. There’s about a million fantasy universe creation ideas, and mUsIC cREaTeD eVerYThInG is about the stupidest one out there. Go with an overgod, or magic, or all those other fantasy explanations for stuff!
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How so? Let’s look at the message that Lewis/Tolkien were working with. In both cases, there is a single monotheistic god that is alone in existence (or in Narnia’s case, was meant to be alone, but the main characters had stepped into the void through an interplanar nexus). The singular overgod, to use your term, then creates existence out of nothing - in both cases a clear allegory for the Book of Genesis, seeing as Lewis and Tolkien were both devout Christians and rather well respected theological scholars.
Starting with Genesis as the origin, let’s consider why they chose song. Music is arguably one of the most human of creations - every single culture has music and can recognise the music of another culture as music, even if the words or instruments are unfamiliar. It’s a concept that transcends even humanity, showing up in the mating (and thus-life creating) process of countless other species.
Music is not just human connection and a sings of life though - it is also history, with so much of culture and legend preserved through music, for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the written language codified the myths. Like music itself, the concept of using music to preserve cultural and historical existence is universal, from the pre-Homer legends of Europe to the tales of the Australian Outback, music and legend cannot be separated.
There also is the idea of harmony, which comes into play in both LotR and Narnia. Music, in its traditional sense, is an act of harmony - of bringing different notes together to make a cohesive message, often centralised around repeated motifs and themes. It is order and balance, beauty and cooperation. Except when it isn’t - music can also be discordant and chaotic, emotional and unstable.
Tolkien and Lewis both wanted to follow the path of Genesis, insofar as corruption entered the newly fledged perfect world. For Lewis, that corruption comes from Jadis, an interloper to the world born of Aslan’s song; for Tolkien, that took a much more literal approach to the discord in the harmony, with Melkor disrupting the order and harmony of the music itself.
As one final thought - though I could go on - Tolkien was always a poet, and one need only read the Hobbit and LotR to know how important song was to him. In a large regard, both novels are just as much vessels for Tolkien to share his poetry as they are novels themselves. There is a certain elegance to song giving birth to the world of the Lord of the Rings - it is an in-universe representation of a Tolkien the songwriter birthing the novels’ existence from his poetic mind.
There’s so many infinite layers of depth to why these two authors focused specifically on song that I simply have a hard time seeing it as “the stupidest” creation myth possible; it’s an elegant decision that captures in just a few lines volumes upon volumes of history, the authors’ views and backgrounds, and what themes they wish to convey with their work.
I liked Beren and Luthien, Turin Turambar and Nienor and the death of Thingol and the Fall of Doriath.
I absolutely loved reading this. It is really deep, thought provoking, and well thought out. I would actually appreciate if you DID go on.
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Music being very “human” is exactly why I don’t like the musical creation concept. Creation of a universe should not have anything remotely human about it in any way. It should be an unknowable act by an overgod, far beyond anything that our pathetic minds can comprehend the smallest iota of.
Yeah, Tolkien loved music and so do I. I still think that the creation of a universe by it is unutterably stupid.
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Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
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Welcome back!
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
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Also, heck: I just realized we passed the one year thread birthday!
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I agree
As aforestated, music is something that goes beyond transcending all human culture—it permeates nature itself. Animals, with their calls and songs are the most known of nature’s musicians, but nature itself produces a cacophony of percussion and wind instruments that date back to the very beginning of creation. Rain falling on trees; the clap of thunder; wind rustling fallen leaves; the creaking of branches.
Tolkien and Lewis are not trying to make an unknowable god - they’re not Lovecraft or other modernists who postulate that divinity is something unknowable. They’re Christians, and it’s fundamental to their belief system that God imbued Man and all existence with His own essence. The full breadth of their God is unknowable—but it’s critical to their faith that small fragments of their God, and thus the Gods of their world, is, in fact, knowable insofar as that fragment is reflected in existence.
In wanting to show that the God’s power transcends existence itself, they would want creation to embody something that transcends every single element of the world; something fundamentally universal and partially obtainable by all creatures, and partially mastered by sapient creatures. That’s sound; that’s music. Something which existed ere the first creatures walked the world; something expanded upon once animal first gave voice to the universal song of wind and water.
In interpreting another’s work, it is important to consider the author’s view - while you might think divinity is fully and completely unknowable, Tolkien and Lewis fundamentally did not. In light of the authors, it’s an incredibly clear and poignant method of creation, conveying more of the author’s very existence than many—if not all—other passages in their works.
In a kinda connected light, there is a push that Tolkien might become a Catholic Saint
Hi everyone! I'm working up the will to finalize my signature, so... I guess this will be the signature for now
I know there’s a new push for this every so often, but it doesn’t seem to have gained much, if any, traction in the circles that might result in Tolkien’s canonisation. It’s certainly an interesting story to follow, and one of those things that might never happen, might happen in decades, or could occur rather suddenly.
Though, I feel Tolkien would insist on a bit of pedantic nitpicking - in this hypothetical situation, he would be “canonised” as a saint, he wouldn’t “become” a saint. In the Catholic tradition saints are created by God, and simply are saints. The Church can only canonise someone - adding them to the canons of saints - formally recognising them as the saint they always were.
Thanks. That actually makes sense. I honestly never thought about it enough to think about the Christian influences. Which explains why I heartily dislike it, I’m a devout atheist.
I still think it’s stupid for my stated reasons, and my opinion has been quadrupled over the Christian influences, but eh. Everyone’s allowed their own opinion.
I'm the Valar (leader and creator) of The Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit/Anything Tolkien Cult!
Member of the Cult of Cats, High Elf of the Elven Guild, and Sauce Priest & Sauce Smith of the Supreme Court of Sauce.
If you want some casual roleplay/adventures in Middle Earth, check out The Wild's Edge Tavern, a LotR/Middle Earth tavern!
JOIN TIAMAT'S CONGA LINE!
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Really? I hadn’t heard that!
Well, if you allow yourself to “heartily dislike” a portion of the franchise simply because it has Christian influences, I have some bad news for you, which I’ll let Tolkien himself break:
The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.
The works are, at their core, one of the great works of Christian literature - perhaps not as over in their design as The Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, or anything Lewis ever wrote, but Tolkien’s roots are far from subtle. I would posture that one need not be Catholic, or even religious, to be able to appreciate the fact that the single most important part of the work to Tolkien was not the language, not his writing, not his characters, and not his plot—it was the religious experience he found in writing the series.
Even to an atheist or one of a different faith, seeing the hand of Tolkien’s Catholicism in the works should not be a point of derision, but a point of purely academic fascination. It is through those elements you learn more not just about the world, but about the author himself; they provide an empathetic link to a man who created not only a world, but reimagined an entire genera of literature.
Which explains why there’s no clerics in Tolkien.