I have published my first version of an Enforcer roguish archetype. As usual with this archetype, it is intended to be a "brawny" or "brutish" rogue, which uses strength instead of dexterity. "Why not just play a fighter with criminal background?" one might ask. I wanted an archetype that fit the stereotypical big man in the criminal organization. They still know how to be sneaky, because they've grown up on the streets or in the syndicate too, but they're the muscle. They are the ones the boss sends to collect the debt. They stand behind the ones doing the talking, slapping a club or mace into their open palm while looking menacing. They are still adept at hiding in the shadows, but rather than backstab you or slit your throat, they seek to knock you out and drag you back to the hideout. After all, a dead man pays no debts.
For this version of the enforcer, I primarily focused on two aspects that I believe fit the archetype . I wanted the enforcer to be intimidating, hence proficiency in intimidation, as well as have the ability to add proficiency bonus to an ally's charisma check, as the enforcer looms in the background with an unspoken threat. Later, there is the ability to impose the frightened condition in combat, further playing off the intimidation factor.
Secondly, I wanted the enforcer to be a strength based melee combatant, with a flavor of someone who is used to street fighting. In a typical brawl, there is a lot of grappling and shoving, which is why I thought the enforcer could use their cunning action to grapple or shove. In addition, I picture the enforcer as less of a killer and more of a "break their kneecaps" or cause pain, using a club or mace and gaining sneak attack using those weapons. In addition, I needed to solve the problem of having lower dexterity and being too vulnerable in melee, so I gave the enforcer proficiency in heavy and medium armor, as well as the knowledge to remove the stealth disadvantage.
I admit I blatantly stole the level 17 feature from the Soulknife, but I have not thought of anything else yet. I like the idea of stunning on a sneak attack, but since stun is a powerful crowd control, I saved it for level 17. I'm open to any advice or improvement on the groundwork I have laid here. Thanks in advance!
You nailed the flavor you were going for. It’s really great, and basically the everything you said you were trying to do was represented. Don’t get let down because this is only one bullet point, it’s hard to get the flavor and mechanics to align so well, so good job.
Cons:
This feels pretty strong mechanically, to the point where it might be overpowered.
1: It’s very Strength SAD. This is the least offensive thing on the list, because Rogue is already SAD, but with Dex. Don’t worry about it.
2: It’s really powerful in combat, especially at higher levels. Most rogue subclasses are about out-of combat RP, and this has almost every feature be related to combat. It’s really good at giving itself advantage, and gets it way too early. As a quick thing, I would say you could just move Street Fighting, Fearsome Foe, and Vice Grip up to the next level of features and the balance would be better.
3: Wording problems. Everything is clear how it works, but changing the wording to be more like official content just makes it look better, and have less chances for unforeseen issues in gameplay later on.
You nailed the flavor you were going for. It’s really great, and basically the everything you said you were trying to do was represented. Don’t get let down because this is only one bullet point, it’s hard to get the flavor and mechanics to align so well, so good job.
Cons:
This feels pretty strong mechanically, to the point where it might be overpowered.
1: It’s very Strength SAD. This is the least offensive thing on the list, because Rogue is already SAD, but with Dex. Don’t worry about it.
2: It’s really powerful in combat, especially at higher levels. Most rogue subclasses are about out-of combat RP, and this has almost every feature be related to combat. It’s really good at giving itself advantage, and gets it way too early. As a quick thing, I would say you could just move Street Fighting, Fearsome Foe, and Vice Grip up to the next level of features and the balance would be better.
3: Wording problems. Everything is clear how it works, but changing the wording to be more like official content just makes it look better, and have less chances for unforeseen issues in gameplay later on.
Thank you for the feedback! It could be a bit overpowered with the ability to shove AND grapple, since shoving someone down grants advantage on melee and thus a free sneak attack at advantage giving double chance to crit. I want the subclass to get most of its flavor at level 3, like the other rogue subclasses. Perhaps removing the option to shove and adding that later would be more balanced. The restrained condition is powerful, and maybe it should also come later. As for being Strength dependent, I think if you want to build a good rogue who does melee, you will also need dexterity to be decent for stealth and other rogue business, and you would also want decent Con for survivability. I don't think it's any more overpowered than say the Hexblade, which only requires a 1 level dip to make charisma the only score needed for all attacks.
I also think perhaps giving heavy armor with no stealth penalty should be nerfed to only medium armor instead. It makes more sense to be able to muffle medium armor and still be able to move stealthily, while it isn't very realistic to silence full plate.
Pretty cool features, I agree it feels like a bit too much though. I'd scale it back with a few things:
No heavy armor. You say the intention is for the rogue to still have some investment in DEX, and Medium armor is for that kind of build. Heavy armor (for any class) strongly encourages dumping DEX altogether, and it also just feels a little too far from what a rogue is supposed to be.
Even though I get that's kind of a passive ability, Threatening Presence should not be unlimited use. Prof times a day or once every short rest seems more reasonable.
I like Street Fighting a lot. Yes, you can give yourself advantage, but you are also stuck in the thick of things. In this post-Steady Aim world, I don't think it's too much. And with only medium armor, this is slightly more perilous and it seems like a good trade-off. The only thing that sets off a flag for me is the unarmed strikes bit: one level of MC monk on this - or a monk main taking these 3 levels - could be pretty strong.
Vice Grip feels too good. It should be an action or additional bonus action on something already grappled, or it should restrain you too. Or have some other cost.
One issue with grapplers at high levels is that things are often too big. If you want this class to make use of grappling and shoving at all levels, I'd suggest a feature that helps those actions scale up. For example, I have the following work in progress on my Battlerager rewrite:
Giantslayer
Starting at 10th level, even the largest foes aren't safe from your savage embrace. When you succeed on a grapple check against a creature that is Huge or larger, instead of reducing its speed to zero you move into the target creature's space and cling to its body. As long as you maintain the grapple, you move with the target creature.
You can move around within the larger creature’s space, treating the space as difficult terrain, but you must first release the grapple to do so. If you end your turn within the target creature's space without successfully grappling it, or if your grapple is broken on another creature's turn, you immediately fall prone in an adjacent square.
The target creature can dislodge you as an action—knocking you off, scraping you against a wall, or grabbing and throwing you—by making a Strength (Athletics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (your choice).
Much of that is based on the optional rules in the DMG for climbing onto a large creature. Perhaps you can do something similar as one of your high level features.
Pretty cool features, I agree it feels like a bit too much though. I'd scale it back with a few things:
No heavy armor. You say the intention is for the rogue to still have some investment in DEX, and Medium armor is for that kind of build. Heavy armor (for any class) strongly encourages dumping DEX altogether, and it also just feels a little too far from what a rogue is supposed to be.
Even though I get that's kind of a passive ability, Threatening Presence should not be unlimited use. Prof times a day or once every short rest seems more reasonable.
I like Street Fighting a lot. Yes, you can give yourself advantage, but you are also stuck in the thick of things. In this post-Steady Aim world, I don't think it's too much. And with only medium armor, this is slightly more perilous and it seems like a good trade-off. The only thing that sets off a flag for me is the unarmed strikes bit: one level of MC monk on this - or a monk main taking these 3 levels - could be pretty strong.
Vice Grip feels too good. It should be an action or additional bonus action on something already grappled, or it should restrain you too. Or have some other cost.
One issue with grapplers at high levels is that things are often too big. If you want this class to make use of grappling and shoving at all levels, I'd suggest a feature that helps those actions scale up. For example, I have the following work in progress on my Battlerager rewrite:
I definitely agree with removing heavy armor proficiency. I will keep medium armor proficiency with no disadvantage on stealth for wearing it. That will give a decent AC with at least a 14 investment in dex. I personally do not feel that Threatening Presence is too strong. You could already have a druid or cleric casting guidance for a lot of checks, which is a d4. To me this makes more sense, having a burly scary looking guy behind you when you're negotiating. Maybe Reducing the range would help, so the person has to be closer to the one making the roll. As for Street Fighting, removing the unarmed strike portion might be a good idea. After all, what kind of thug worth his salt would fight without a weapon of some kind? He would use his free hand to grab and his main hand to smash. I think Vice Grip is extremely good, and maybe it should be moved to the level 17 feature, making it a strong capstone. I think I would only want the grappling to work on reasonable sized enemies, so it would not be too overpowered.
You could already have a druid or cleric casting guidance for a lot of checks, which is a d4.
Sure, but it takes their action, requires concentration, adds an unpredictable value, and caps out at 4.
I was going to say this kind of passive bonus isn't really how 5e works, but then I remembered Paladin auras. They do have a one restriction you might want to add - you must be conscious to provide the benefit.
I was going to say this kind of passive bonus isn't really how 5e works, but then I remembered Paladin auras. They do have a one restriction you might want to add - you must be conscious to provide the benefit.
Good point! I doubt a dead enforcer, no matter how scary looking, would provide much of a bonus to negotiations. I might perhaps consider limiting the bonus to persuasion and intimidation checks. I don't think a scary big brute would help with performance or deception as much. I thought of Paladin auras too, and I just like the idea of one character's feature helping the team. The idea of a scary bodyguard improving your "persuasion" makes sense to me.
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I have published my first version of an Enforcer roguish archetype. As usual with this archetype, it is intended to be a "brawny" or "brutish" rogue, which uses strength instead of dexterity. "Why not just play a fighter with criminal background?" one might ask. I wanted an archetype that fit the stereotypical big man in the criminal organization. They still know how to be sneaky, because they've grown up on the streets or in the syndicate too, but they're the muscle. They are the ones the boss sends to collect the debt. They stand behind the ones doing the talking, slapping a club or mace into their open palm while looking menacing. They are still adept at hiding in the shadows, but rather than backstab you or slit your throat, they seek to knock you out and drag you back to the hideout. After all, a dead man pays no debts.
For this version of the enforcer, I primarily focused on two aspects that I believe fit the archetype . I wanted the enforcer to be intimidating, hence proficiency in intimidation, as well as have the ability to add proficiency bonus to an ally's charisma check, as the enforcer looms in the background with an unspoken threat. Later, there is the ability to impose the frightened condition in combat, further playing off the intimidation factor.
Secondly, I wanted the enforcer to be a strength based melee combatant, with a flavor of someone who is used to street fighting. In a typical brawl, there is a lot of grappling and shoving, which is why I thought the enforcer could use their cunning action to grapple or shove. In addition, I picture the enforcer as less of a killer and more of a "break their kneecaps" or cause pain, using a club or mace and gaining sneak attack using those weapons. In addition, I needed to solve the problem of having lower dexterity and being too vulnerable in melee, so I gave the enforcer proficiency in heavy and medium armor, as well as the knowledge to remove the stealth disadvantage.
I admit I blatantly stole the level 17 feature from the Soulknife, but I have not thought of anything else yet. I like the idea of stunning on a sneak attack, but since stun is a powerful crowd control, I saved it for level 17. I'm open to any advice or improvement on the groundwork I have laid here. Thanks in advance!
updated link: https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/747645-enforcer
Pros:
You nailed the flavor you were going for. It’s really great, and basically the everything you said you were trying to do was represented. Don’t get let down because this is only one bullet point, it’s hard to get the flavor and mechanics to align so well, so good job.
Cons:
This feels pretty strong mechanically, to the point where it might be overpowered.
1: It’s very Strength SAD. This is the least offensive thing on the list, because Rogue is already SAD, but with Dex. Don’t worry about it.
2: It’s really powerful in combat, especially at higher levels. Most rogue subclasses are about out-of combat RP, and this has almost every feature be related to combat. It’s really good at giving itself advantage, and gets it way too early. As a quick thing, I would say you could just move Street Fighting, Fearsome Foe, and Vice Grip up to the next level of features and the balance would be better.
3: Wording problems. Everything is clear how it works, but changing the wording to be more like official content just makes it look better, and have less chances for unforeseen issues in gameplay later on.
Thank you for the feedback! It could be a bit overpowered with the ability to shove AND grapple, since shoving someone down grants advantage on melee and thus a free sneak attack at advantage giving double chance to crit. I want the subclass to get most of its flavor at level 3, like the other rogue subclasses. Perhaps removing the option to shove and adding that later would be more balanced. The restrained condition is powerful, and maybe it should also come later. As for being Strength dependent, I think if you want to build a good rogue who does melee, you will also need dexterity to be decent for stealth and other rogue business, and you would also want decent Con for survivability. I don't think it's any more overpowered than say the Hexblade, which only requires a 1 level dip to make charisma the only score needed for all attacks.
I also think perhaps giving heavy armor with no stealth penalty should be nerfed to only medium armor instead. It makes more sense to be able to muffle medium armor and still be able to move stealthily, while it isn't very realistic to silence full plate.
Pretty cool features, I agree it feels like a bit too much though. I'd scale it back with a few things:
One issue with grapplers at high levels is that things are often too big. If you want this class to make use of grappling and shoving at all levels, I'd suggest a feature that helps those actions scale up. For example, I have the following work in progress on my Battlerager rewrite:
Much of that is based on the optional rules in the DMG for climbing onto a large creature. Perhaps you can do something similar as one of your high level features.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I definitely agree with removing heavy armor proficiency. I will keep medium armor proficiency with no disadvantage on stealth for wearing it. That will give a decent AC with at least a 14 investment in dex. I personally do not feel that Threatening Presence is too strong. You could already have a druid or cleric casting guidance for a lot of checks, which is a d4. To me this makes more sense, having a burly scary looking guy behind you when you're negotiating. Maybe Reducing the range would help, so the person has to be closer to the one making the roll. As for Street Fighting, removing the unarmed strike portion might be a good idea. After all, what kind of thug worth his salt would fight without a weapon of some kind? He would use his free hand to grab and his main hand to smash. I think Vice Grip is extremely good, and maybe it should be moved to the level 17 feature, making it a strong capstone. I think I would only want the grappling to work on reasonable sized enemies, so it would not be too overpowered.
I have updated my enforcer subclass to version 2. Here are some of the highlighted changes:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/747645-enforcer
Sure, but it takes their action, requires concentration, adds an unpredictable value, and caps out at 4.
I was going to say this kind of passive bonus isn't really how 5e works, but then I remembered Paladin auras. They do have a one restriction you might want to add - you must be conscious to provide the benefit.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Good point! I doubt a dead enforcer, no matter how scary looking, would provide much of a bonus to negotiations. I might perhaps consider limiting the bonus to persuasion and intimidation checks. I don't think a scary big brute would help with performance or deception as much. I thought of Paladin auras too, and I just like the idea of one character's feature helping the team. The idea of a scary bodyguard improving your "persuasion" makes sense to me.