My understanding of Find Steed is that the only limitation is that the target of the spell can only be yourself. A lot of people like to apply later rules clarifications from Sage Advice that apply to Twinned Spell to Find Steed as well - but the limitation description is importantly different in my opinion.
Twinned Spell: "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self."
Find Steed: "While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed."
My assertion is that the additional clarifications in Sage Advice are not what would apply to restrict Find Steed. Am I wrong?
Also don't tell me to ask my DM - this is about rules; dm's can do what they want, and that has always been the case. It's a good thing! I'm just trying to interpret the rules we have here.
My understanding of Find Steed is that the only limitation is that the target of the spell can only be yourself. A lot of people like to apply later rules clarifications from Sage Advice that apply to Twinned Spell to Find Steed as well - but the limitation description is importantly different in my opinion.
Twinned Spell: "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self."
Find Steed: "While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed."
My assertion is that the additional clarifications in Sage Advice are not what would apply to restrict Find Steed. Am I wrong?
Also don't tell me to ask my DM - this is about rules; dm's can do what they want, and that has always been the case. It's a good thing! I'm just trying to interpret the rules we have here.
If you choose to make a spell you cast also target your steed, it is now targeting multiple creatures and thus is no longer eligible for being Twinned...
because you're basically already Twinning it (targeting yourself and your steed).
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'm not saying you should be able to twin a spell being affected by Find Steed - I'm saying that the limitations defining how Twin Spell can be limited are not what applies to Find Steed; not saying you can use both at once - separate issue there.
I'm not saying you should be able to twin a spell being affected by Find Steed - I'm saying that the limitations defining how Twin Spell can be limited are not what applies to Find Steed; not saying you can use both at once - separate issue there.
narrows eyes
......Man, am I really so tired I totally missed the point of your post?
Okay, taking the time to reread: you are actually correct. The Find Steed limitation is only Range Self? target steed too if you want, yeah, while Twinned Spell is any spell NOT range of self and only targets one creature...
Yeah. You're totally correct, I'm just an idiot who missed the point the first go round!~
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Any rules for or rulings about the Twinned Spell Metamagic have absolutely fig all to do with any rules for, or rulings about that one particular clause in the description for Find Steed. In fact, the only person I have ever encountered who even mentioned such a thing is you here in this thread.
Any rules for or rulings about the Twinned Spell Metamagic have absolutely fig all to do with any rules for, or rulings about that one particular clause in the description for Find Steed. In fact, the only person I have ever encountered who even mentioned such a thing is you here in this thread.
On the contrary, I hear Twinned Spell rules applied to Find Steed all the time! Example: Dragon's Breath - invalid for Twin Spell, what about Find Steed? I use that spell as an example because it seems to be the most popular one used to question the subject.
Any rules for or rulings about the Twinned Spell Metamagic have absolutely fig all to do with any rules for, or rulings about that one particular clause in the description for Find Steed. In fact, the only person I have ever encountered who even mentioned such a thing is you here in this thread.
On the contrary, I hear Twinned Spell rules applied to Find Steed all the time! Example: Dragon's Breath - invalid for Twin Spell, what about Find Steed? I use that spell as an example because it seems to be the most popular one used to question the subject.
Dragon's Breath doesn't have a range of Self, so it wouldn't be affected by Find Steed's bonus. But nothing is stopping you from applying Dragon's Breath to your Found Steed since it's a range of Touch
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Dragon's Breath doesn't have a range of Self, so it wouldn't be affected by Find Steed's bonus. But nothing is stopping you from applying Dragon's Breath to your Found Steed since it's a range of Touch
I have to disagree with you. (Barring any absurdity from the fallout over the changes to the “Blade Cantrips” having been pointlessly tweaked and unnecessarily reprinted in Tasha’s. 🙄) As long as the spell in question is capable of only targeting a single creature, and as long as you target yourself as that single creature, then your steed could also potentially benefit from that spell if you wish. (And as far as I’m concerned, your victims are targets of the Action granted by the spell, not by the actual spell Itself.)
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
Note, it does not say “a spell with a range of self,” it says “a spell that targets only you.” So, if you cast Dragon’s Breath on yourself, it meets the requirement imposed by Find Steed. Just like if you cast Cure Wounds on yourself (or even Healing Word) your steed could potentially benefit from that healing too. As far as I’m concerned, the creatures “targeted” for Action granted by Dragon Breath
Now I know JC tweets are only semi-official, but he has spoken about what the intent of the ability is. RAW says no such thing, so it's quite easy for a ruling on this to go either way.
Note, it does not say “a spell with a range of self,” it says “a spell that targets only you.” So, if you cast Dragon’s Breath on yourself, it meets the requirement imposed by Find Steed. Just like if you cast Cure Wounds on yourself (or even Healing Word) your steed could potentially benefit from that healing too. As far as I’m concerned, the creatures “targeted” for Action granted by Dragon Breath
Tangential question for you Sposta: is a spell with a range of self a spell that targets only you? Curious about the legality of Find Steed + Spirit Guardians for those that don't treat the area of effect of a spell as part of the number of targets the spell has.
If you cast a Twinned Spell and heal yourself and your mount, then wouldn't Dragon's Breath damage yourself and your mount? Seems reasonable to me... :-p
Dragon's Breath doesn't have a range of Self, so it wouldn't be affected by Find Steed's bonus. But nothing is stopping you from applying Dragon's Breath to your Found Steed since it's a range of Touch
I have to disagree with you. (Barring any absurdity from the fallout over the changes to the “Blade Cantrips” having been pointlessly tweaked and unnecessarily reprinted in Tasha’s. 🙄) As long as the spell in question is capable of only targeting a single creature, and as long as you target yourself as that single creature, then your steed could also potentially benefit from that spell if you wish. (And as far as I’m concerned, your victims are targets of the Action granted by the spell, not by the actual spell Itself.)
While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed.
Note, it does not say “a spell with a range of self,” it says “a spell that targets only you.” So, if you cast Dragon’s Breath on yourself, it meets the requirement imposed by Find Steed. Just like if you cast Cure Wounds on yourself (or even Healing Word) your steed could potentially benefit from that healing too. As far as I’m concerned, the creatures “targeted” for Action granted by Dragon Breath
narrows eyes
Man, I am not on my game today.
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Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'm confused as to what the question even is. What do twinned spell and find steed have to do with eachother? Sharing spells? Besides that, they have almost opposite restrictions, so I don't know what rulings apply to both.
Now I know JC tweets are only semi-official, but he has spoken about what the intent of the ability is. RAW says no such thing, so it's quite easy for a ruling on this to go either way.
I mean I get why they wouldn't want you to get a bonus target on a multi target spell or double dip on a AoE but why would "only you" need to be any more strict than only you being the target...
If you scroll down the link it shows another tweet where JC talks about cure wounds targeting yourself working with Find Steed. So I think that was just a poorly worded sentence trying to convey that spells that include an area of effect are the exception, which only makes it harder to take this ruling seriously.
I answered my own question about spirit guardians after reading the JC quote I posted. *facepalm*
The ruling is definitely about not allowing the doubling of AoE effects. A Lore Bard with Find Steed and Spirit Guardians sounds like a complete monster without the ruling. In the end I think it's a good restriction, even if JC ham-fisted it.
Yeah, the problem here (as is often the case) is the word "target", which has multiple competing meanings.
Mostly during spellcasting, it means the creature(s), object(s) and/or point in space that is chosen during the casting as the focal point for the effect of that spell; i.e. the person healed, the metal object heated, the point chosen for Fireball explosion.
Unfortunately, the word is also used in a more general way to refer to all creatures and objects that are in any way affected by the spell (like the people in the secondary explosion of an Ice Knife).
What the clumsy wording in both the rules books and the subsequent 'clarifying' tweets are trying to say with their "targets only one creature/only you" language is something along the lines of: "Come on guys - just, like, you know what we mean - just one creature - not, like, more than one or maybe sometimes more than one, like, just one...". I don't think any more errata or tweets are going to achieve a clearer result than this.
This ruling works easily for any spell that clearly hits one person, like a Cure Wounds, and clearly excludes any Fireballs, but gets grey with the spells that initially target one but then might effect more later like any aura or a Dragon Breath. Personally, I just fall back on the intent of the restriction. At the end of the day, both spell duplication powers are meant to take a spell that affects 1 creature and make it affect 2. If by any means that spell already does or could affect more than 1 creature then it will not duplicate.
The Steed restrictions are less strict, since they lack any range element, so include the range-self buff spells as well as those buffs you might otherwise cast on an ally, while twinned spells exclude the range-self spells.
If you scroll down the link it shows another tweet where JC talks about cure wounds targeting yourself working with Find Steed. So I think that was just a poorly worded sentence trying to convey that spells that include an area of effect are the exception, which only makes it harder to take this ruling seriously.
It’s stuff like that which makes it hard to take most SA Tweets seriously or at face value.
But to answer your question, I have already argued (quite vehemently) why multiple instances of Spirit Guardians do not stack. However, IMO, Dragon’s Breath is a whole different matter altogether since the AoE is neither persistent, nor generated by the casting of the spell. Instead, each instance of the AoE is instantaneous, and no two can ever occur simultaneously as even if two creatures share an initiative for the combat, their turns are still resolved sequentially. If that didn’t matter then initiative order doesn’t matter because every turn in the same round occurs within the same 6 seconds, yet are not considered “simultaneous.”
I have repeatedly stated that I don’t give a fig WTF Crawford tweets, Goodberry doesn’t “heal,” it conjures berries into existence. The fact that those berries have healing properties is irrelevant since the spell doesn’t do the healing, the berries do. Similarly, Dragon’s Breath does not create an AoE, it temporarily grants the targeted creature a special Action that creature can use on its turn. (Note the complete lack of plurality in regards to how many creatures the spell “targets.”) The targeted creature most certainly does generate an AoE when it uses the special Action granted by DB, absolutely. But the spell doesn’t do that, the spell’s target does.
Very interesting Sposta. I didn't realize the uniqueness of Dragon's Breath here. Are there any other spells that work like that?
Melf's doesn't seem to work because you can launch up to two upon casting. How about Crown of Stars? That's limited to use as a bonus action after casting it as an action.
Very interesting Sposta. I didn't realize the uniqueness of Dragon's Breath here. Are there any other spells that work like that?
🤷♂️ Crawford would likely say that Dragon’s Breath doesn’t even work like that. (At least judging by his SA tweets like that one you linked, and his ruling about Goodberry interacting with Disciple of Life. 🙄)
But the way I see it, if you Polymorph yourself into a [monster]Tyrannosaurus Rex[/spell] and bite the shi—heck out of someone, Polymorph didn’t do that damage, you did. Right? So I don’t see why this should be any different. Ne?
They definitely just wanted to clean house on the subject. I appreciate the distinction you've made though, and it makes a lot of sense logically. The polymorph example is solid too. I can dig it.
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My understanding of Find Steed is that the only limitation is that the target of the spell can only be yourself. A lot of people like to apply later rules clarifications from Sage Advice that apply to Twinned Spell to Find Steed as well - but the limitation description is importantly different in my opinion.
Twinned Spell: "When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn't have a range of self."
Find Steed: "While mounted on your steed, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target your steed."
My assertion is that the additional clarifications in Sage Advice are not what would apply to restrict Find Steed. Am I wrong?
Also don't tell me to ask my DM - this is about rules; dm's can do what they want, and that has always been the case. It's a good thing! I'm just trying to interpret the rules we have here.
If you choose to make a spell you cast also target your steed, it is now targeting multiple creatures and thus is no longer eligible for being Twinned...
because you're basically already Twinning it (targeting yourself and your steed).
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'm not saying you should be able to twin a spell being affected by Find Steed - I'm saying that the limitations defining how Twin Spell can be limited are not what applies to Find Steed; not saying you can use both at once - separate issue there.
narrows eyes
......Man, am I really so tired I totally missed the point of your post?
Okay, taking the time to reread: you are actually correct. The Find Steed limitation is only Range Self? target steed too if you want, yeah, while Twinned Spell is any spell NOT range of self and only targets one creature...
Yeah. You're totally correct, I'm just an idiot who missed the point the first go round!~
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Any rules for or rulings about the Twinned Spell Metamagic have absolutely fig all to do with any rules for, or rulings about that one particular clause in the description for Find Steed. In fact, the only person I have ever encountered who even mentioned such a thing is you here in this thread.
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On the contrary, I hear Twinned Spell rules applied to Find Steed all the time! Example: Dragon's Breath - invalid for Twin Spell, what about Find Steed? I use that spell as an example because it seems to be the most popular one used to question the subject.
Dragon's Breath doesn't have a range of Self, so it wouldn't be affected by Find Steed's bonus. But nothing is stopping you from applying Dragon's Breath to your Found Steed since it's a range of Touch
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I have to disagree with you. (Barring any absurdity from the fallout over the changes to the “Blade Cantrips” having been pointlessly tweaked and unnecessarily reprinted in Tasha’s. 🙄) As long as the spell in question is capable of only targeting a single creature, and as long as you target yourself as that single creature, then your steed could also potentially benefit from that spell if you wish. (And as far as I’m concerned, your victims are targets of the Action granted by the spell, not by the actual spell Itself.)
Find Steed states:
Note, it does not say “a spell with a range of self,” it says “a spell that targets only you.” So, if you cast Dragon’s Breath on yourself, it meets the requirement imposed by Find Steed. Just like if you cast Cure Wounds on yourself (or even Healing Word) your steed could potentially benefit from that healing too. As far as I’m concerned, the creatures “targeted” for Action granted by Dragon Breath
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Jeremy Crawford Sage Advice Tweet
Now I know JC tweets are only semi-official, but he has spoken about what the intent of the ability is. RAW says no such thing, so it's quite easy for a ruling on this to go either way.
Tangential question for you Sposta: is a spell with a range of self a spell that targets only you? Curious about the legality of Find Steed + Spirit Guardians for those that don't treat the area of effect of a spell as part of the number of targets the spell has.
If you cast a Twinned Spell and heal yourself and your mount, then wouldn't Dragon's Breath damage yourself and your mount? Seems reasonable to me... :-p
Ok. Maybe I am being sarcastic.
<Insert clever signature here>
narrows eyes
Man, I am not on my game today.
Formerly Devan Avalon.
Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
I'm confused as to what the question even is. What do twinned spell and find steed have to do with eachother? Sharing spells? Besides that, they have almost opposite restrictions, so I don't know what rulings apply to both.
So a spell like dispel evil and good would qualify but if you target yourself with protection from evil and good it wouldn't? That seems fairly stupid tbh.
I mean I get why they wouldn't want you to get a bonus target on a multi target spell or double dip on a AoE but why would "only you" need to be any more strict than only you being the target...
If you scroll down the link it shows another tweet where JC talks about cure wounds targeting yourself working with Find Steed. So I think that was just a poorly worded sentence trying to convey that spells that include an area of effect are the exception, which only makes it harder to take this ruling seriously.
I answered my own question about spirit guardians after reading the JC quote I posted. *facepalm*
The ruling is definitely about not allowing the doubling of AoE effects. A Lore Bard with Find Steed and Spirit Guardians sounds like a complete monster without the ruling. In the end I think it's a good restriction, even if JC ham-fisted it.
Yeah, the problem here (as is often the case) is the word "target", which has multiple competing meanings.
Mostly during spellcasting, it means the creature(s), object(s) and/or point in space that is chosen during the casting as the focal point for the effect of that spell; i.e. the person healed, the metal object heated, the point chosen for Fireball explosion.
Unfortunately, the word is also used in a more general way to refer to all creatures and objects that are in any way affected by the spell (like the people in the secondary explosion of an Ice Knife).
What the clumsy wording in both the rules books and the subsequent 'clarifying' tweets are trying to say with their "targets only one creature/only you" language is something along the lines of: "Come on guys - just, like, you know what we mean - just one creature - not, like, more than one or maybe sometimes more than one, like, just one...". I don't think any more errata or tweets are going to achieve a clearer result than this.
This ruling works easily for any spell that clearly hits one person, like a Cure Wounds, and clearly excludes any Fireballs, but gets grey with the spells that initially target one but then might effect more later like any aura or a Dragon Breath. Personally, I just fall back on the intent of the restriction. At the end of the day, both spell duplication powers are meant to take a spell that affects 1 creature and make it affect 2. If by any means that spell already does or could affect more than 1 creature then it will not duplicate.
The Steed restrictions are less strict, since they lack any range element, so include the range-self buff spells as well as those buffs you might otherwise cast on an ally, while twinned spells exclude the range-self spells.
I just want to play a Lore Bard with Find Steed, Spirit Guardians, Melf's Minute Meteors and Cone of Cold though. Why is life so hard?
It’s stuff like that which makes it hard to take most SA Tweets seriously or at face value.
But to answer your question, I have already argued (quite vehemently) why multiple instances of Spirit Guardians do not stack. However, IMO, Dragon’s Breath is a whole different matter altogether since the AoE is neither persistent, nor generated by the casting of the spell. Instead, each instance of the AoE is instantaneous, and no two can ever occur simultaneously as even if two creatures share an initiative for the combat, their turns are still resolved sequentially. If that didn’t matter then initiative order doesn’t matter because every turn in the same round occurs within the same 6 seconds, yet are not considered “simultaneous.”
I have repeatedly stated that I don’t give a fig WTF Crawford tweets, Goodberry doesn’t “heal,” it conjures berries into existence. The fact that those berries have healing properties is irrelevant since the spell doesn’t do the healing, the berries do. Similarly, Dragon’s Breath does not create an AoE, it temporarily grants the targeted creature a special Action that creature can use on its turn. (Note the complete lack of plurality in regards to how many creatures the spell “targets.”) The targeted creature most certainly does generate an AoE when it uses the special Action granted by DB, absolutely. But the spell doesn’t do that, the spell’s target does.
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Very interesting Sposta. I didn't realize the uniqueness of Dragon's Breath here. Are there any other spells that work like that?
Melf's doesn't seem to work because you can launch up to two upon casting. How about Crown of Stars? That's limited to use as a bonus action after casting it as an action.
🤷♂️ Crawford would likely say that Dragon’s Breath doesn’t even work like that. (At least judging by his SA tweets like that one you linked, and his ruling about Goodberry interacting with Disciple of Life. 🙄)
But the way I see it, if you Polymorph yourself into a [monster]Tyrannosaurus Rex[/spell] and bite the
shi—heck out of someone, Polymorph didn’t do that damage, you did. Right? So I don’t see why this should be any different. Ne?Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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They definitely just wanted to clean house on the subject. I appreciate the distinction you've made though, and it makes a lot of sense logically. The polymorph example is solid too. I can dig it.