So, l don't remember where, but l heard or read somewhere that you can use a cantrip and a leveled spell on the same turn if that spell is a bonus action (for example healing word+firebolt)
Is this true? If so, am l correct in asumeing this would still work for spells effected by a sorcerers "quickened spell" metamagic, allowing them to, say, cast lightning bolt and firebolt in the same turn?
Edit: Glad to know i'm right! That's the final piece l needed for the "puzzle".
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
To add to the above, there are several abilities that allow for the ability to cast a spell as a bonus action in conjunction with another spell/action, however, you are only able to cast a single leveled spell on your turn regardless of if it is an action or bonus action.
There is also an argument to be made that you might be able to cast a leveled spell as a bonus action if the action you used to cast a spell was via a spell scroll or magic item that cast the spell for you, but that would be DM discression.
So, l don't remember where, but l heard or read somewhere that you can use a cantrip and a leveled spell on the same turn if that spell is a bonus action (for example healing word+firebolt)
Is this true? If so, am l correct in asumeing this would still work for spells effected by a sorcerers "quickened spell" metamagic, allowing them to, say, cast lightning bolt and firebolt in the same turn?
Sounds like you've got it. Just remember the action spell can only be a cantrip.
To add to the above, there are several abilities that allow for the ability to cast a spell as a bonus action in conjunction with another spell/action, however, you are only able to cast a single leveled spell on your turn regardless of if it is an action or bonus action.
There is also an argument to be made that you might be able to cast a leveled spell as a bonus action if the action you used to cast a spell was via a spell scroll or magic item that cast the spell for you, but that would be DM discression.
You can definitely cast multiple leveled spells per turn. It’s just that there are very few ways to do that without one being a bonus action. If you multiclass, or are an Eldritch Knight, you can Action Surge two fireballs out at once.
However, if anything is cast as a bonus action, even a cantrip such as shillelagh, both of those actions can only be cantrips.
There is also an argument to be made that you might be able to cast a leveled spell as a bonus action if the action you used to cast a spell was via a spell scroll or magic item that cast the spell for you, but that would be DM discression.
Its a very arguable argument.
Chapter 9 describes the [Tooltip Not Found] action, which isn't always an Action but might instead by a Bonus Action or a Reaction as described by a spell or by a feature interacting with a spell.
Cast a Spell
Spellcasters such as wizards and clerics, as well as many monsters, have access to spells and can use them to great effect in combat. Each spell has a casting time, which specifies whether the caster must use an action, a reaction, minutes, or even hours to cast the spell. Casting a spell is, therefore, not necessarily an action. Most spells do have a casting time of 1 action, so a spellcaster often uses his or her action in combat to cast such a spell. See chapter 10 for the rules on spellcasting.
That Chapter 9 [Tooltip Not Found] language is not where the Bonus Action restriction is found, we'll get to that in a second.
Chapter 9 also doesn't even describe the action used to read scrolls or use other magic items, because that action is not the [Tooltip Not Found] action found in Chapter 9, but rather a special Activate an Item action which is only described in the DMG (great design there guys...). It's pretty long ability to quote in one block, so I'm going to snip out a couple bits that aren't relevent:
Activating an Item
Activating some magic items requires a user to do something in particular, such as holding the item and uttering a command word, reading the item if it is a scroll, or drinking it if it is a potion. The description of each item category or individual item details how an item is activated. Certain items use one or more of the following rules related to their activation.
If an item requires an action to activate, that action isn't a function of the Use an Object action, so a feature such as the rogue's Fast Hands can't be used to activate the item.
...
Spells
Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item, often by expending charges from it. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell and caster level, doesn’t expend any of the user’s spell slots, and requires no components unless the item’s description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration. Many items, such as potions, bypass the casting of a spell and confer the spell’s effects with their usual duration. Certain items make exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time, duration, or other parts of a spell.
...
This section, again, doesn't make any mention of the special Bonus Action restriction, but does make clear that Activate an Item isn't a defined action/bonus action/reaction, but instead follows the spell's "normal casting time," unless the item "bypass[es] the casting of a spell and confers the spell's effects" without casting, or otherwise provides specific "exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time."
A lot to unpack there, but... taken together, you can cast a spell with [Tooltip Not Found], or sometimes with Activate an Item, but you may be able to sometimes get a spell's benefit from Activate an Itemwithout casting a spell. If there's a specific item out there that does something like provide the benefit of a spell without casting the spell (like Necklace of Fireballs) and does so as a Bonus Action, that could be important... but off the top of my head, I'm not aware of any specifically?
When you are casting a spell, regardless of what action you're using, "the same basic rules are followed" found in Chapter 10. Among those rules is the special Bonus Action rule already quoted above:
Bonus Action
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
With all of that in mind... I would think that the Chapter 10 "basic rule" about casting Bonus Action spells is not restricted to [Tooltip Not Found] spellcasting, but instead also encompasses Activate an Item spellcasting. But if there's a bonus-action-Necklace of Fireballs out there that gives you a spell effect without casting a spell, that would not suffer the Bonus Action restriction.
You can definitely cast multiple leveled spells per turn. It’s just that there are very few ways to do that without one being a bonus action. If you multiclass, or are an Eldritch Knight, you can Action Surge two fireballs out at once.
This is not true. The rule is that you can cast one spell per turn, not action. Action surge gives you an additional action within the same turn, maintaining the limit. Notice this Sage Advice that specifies.
~
To Chicken_Champ, (I'm not going to quote you because there is a lot there) Here is some Sage Advice that discusses this very thing (albeit poorly). What it comes down to is that using a magic item to cast a spell is not considered to be casting a spell or activating an item, but is instead its own action. Since it is its own action and not taking the action of Cast a Spell, feasibly the user of the magic item could cast their own spell as a bonus action if they have the ability to do so. This would also exclude magic from said item from class/race/feats that would otherwise augment their effects. I'm not saying this is the way I would rule it, but it is something that can be argued.
My point was more of someone using their action to use a magic item then casting a spell as a bonus action, not the other way around.
There is no rule that limits you to one leveled spell per turn. It doesn’t exist. That Sage Advice link doesn’t even reference double fireballs on a turn where you don’t Misty Step. As long as you aren’t bonus action casting, you can Action Surge fireball.
Edit: In fact, this other post (also on the front page of this very subforum) also discusses this, but with lightning bolt instead of fireball.
You are totally right. I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what was being said. There is some sage advice here that says
"There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn.
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it." (emphasis added)
Weird how that works like that. This feels like one of those situations where there is contradictory information about this between what has been officially made Sage advice, and what designers (mostly JC) have said about it in interviews and on Twitter. Offical Sage Advice beats out tweets for me though.
This is not true. The rule is that you can cast one spell per turn, not action. Action surge gives you an additional action within the same turn, maintaining the limit. Notice this Sage Advice that specifies.
~
To Chicken_Champ, (I'm not going to quote you because there is a lot there) Here is some Sage Advice that discusses this very thing (albeit poorly). What it comes down to is that using a magic item to cast a spell is not considered to be casting a spell or activating an item, but is instead its own action. Since it is its own action and not taking the action of Cast a Spell, feasibly the user of the magic item could cast their own spell as a bonus action if they have the ability to do so. This would also exclude magic from said item from class/race/feats that would otherwise augment their effects. I'm not saying this is the way I would rule it, but it is something that can be argued.
My point was more of someone using their action to use a magic item then casting a spell as a bonus action, not the other way around.
You're either wrong about the first part of your post, or you've phrased things poorly so you're being misunderstood. There is no restriction on casting multiple spells with multiple actions, if you have more than one action to burn (via Action Surge).
-
You're very wrong about the second. The language I quoted from the DMG is quite explicit that Activating an Item can result in a spell either by (1) casting that spell, or (2) Conferring the spell's effects without casting it. Items that let you (1) cast a spell, absolutely follow the same rules about casting a spell that are found in Chapter 10 which apply to the [Tooltip Not Found] action. It's only the second type, those that let you (2) confer the effects of a spell without casting it, which arguably can escape some or all of the Chapter 10 rules.
There is no rule that limits you to one leveled spell per turn. It doesn’t exist. That Sage Advice link doesn’t even reference double fireballs on a turn where you don’t Misty Step. As long as you aren’t bonus action casting, you can Action Surge fireball.
Edit: In fact, this other post (also on the front page of this very subforum) also discusses this, but with lightning bolt instead of fireball.
YEP! This thread was actually the last piece of research I needed to make that! (I'm the OP of both this thread and that one, incase that needed mentioning.)
You're very wrong about the second. The language I quoted from the DMG is quite explicit that Activating an Item can result in a spell either by (1) casting that spell, or (2) Conferring the spell's effects without casting it. Items that let you (1) cast a spell, absolutely follow the same rules about casting a spell that are found in Chapter 10 which apply to the Cast a Spell action. It's only the second type, those that let you (2) confer the effects of a spell without casting it, which arguably can escape some or all of the Chapter 10 rules.
Again, I'm not saying that I would rule it that way but I can see it being argued, especially if the item in question functions without the need of a spellcaster to use it in the first place. A Magic item that is dependant on the user's spellcasting ability would be much harder to defend this position on because it is being affected by one's own ability to use spells, however for things like having a built-in DC or to hit mods, the magic is being done by the object, not enabled through it.
I will admit I have built a very niche strawman for the sake of argument, but it is something that I can totally see a DM allowing RAW or not, and figured it would be worth bringing up as a possibility.
To Chicken_Champ, (I'm not going to quote you because there is a lot there) Here is some Sage Advice that discusses this very thing (albeit poorly). What it comes down to is that using a magic item to cast a spell is not considered to be casting a spell or activating an item, but is instead its own action. Since it is its own action and not taking the action of Cast a Spell, feasibly the user of the magic item could cast their own spell as a bonus action if they have the ability to do so. This would also exclude magic from said item from class/race/feats that would otherwise augment their effects. I'm not saying this is the way I would rule it, but it is something that can be argued.
My point was more of someone using their action to use a magic item then casting a spell as a bonus action, not the other way around.
You are right about that sage advice being poorly written (that is why it is not an official ruling, and only "advice"). It is also mostly about theirs fast hands and irrelevant to the discussion. But JC eventually correctly said to follow the rules in the DMG. The same rules CC just quoted.
Now the funny thing about spell casting, is that none of the rules require the "[Tooltip Not Found]" action to cast a spell, nor are they only limited in their application to that action.
Basically, the cast a spell action is to spells what the attack action is to weapon attacks. And just like how the rules for weapon attacks don't only apply to the attack action, the rules for spellcasting apply anytime a spell is cast.
In other words, casting a spell from an item with an action still counts as casting a spell with an action, and the spellcasting rules apply to it as normal including if a spell was cast as a bonus action.
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I'd like to point out that you can not cast any reaction spells before or after casting a bonus action spell that turn, even a cantrip (though such a circumstance is rare).
Yeah, I can’t put my finger on why that chart doesn’t do it for me, but that really feels more confusing than just remembering Bonus Action spell -> Action Cantrip only, no loopholes.
Yeah, I can’t put my finger on why that chart doesn’t do it for me, but that really feels more confusing than just remembering Bonus Action spell -> Action Cantrip only, no loopholes.
Given the very numerous examples on these forums of people who get confused when told this, I figured a flowchart is an alternate way to express the idea in case it was helpful for those who don't get it from just being told the rule.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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As a DM, if one of my players wanted to cast a cantrip with a bonus action (Likely Quickened Spell Metamagic), and wanted to cast a leveled spell with an action, I'd allow it. It's virtually the same as casting a leveled spell with a bonus action and a cantrip with an action.
As a DM, if one of my players wanted to cast a cantrip with a bonus action (Likely Quickened Spell Metamagic), and wanted to cast a leveled spell with an action, I'd allow it. It's virtually the same as casting a leveled spell with a bonus action and a cantrip with an action.
In this case why not just use Quickened Spell on the levelled spell rather than the cantrip? I agree they’re essentially the same thing but since the rules as written make this distinction I don’t see why casting the cantrip as a bonus action would be beneficial
As a DM, if one of my players wanted to cast a cantrip with a bonus action (Likely Quickened Spell Metamagic), and wanted to cast a leveled spell with an action, I'd allow it. It's virtually the same as casting a leveled spell with a bonus action and a cantrip with an action.
In this case why not just use Quickened Spell on the levelled spell rather than the cantrip? I agree they’re essentially the same thing but since the rules as written make this distinction I don’t see why casting the cantrip as a bonus action would be beneficial
You're right that that sounds like a problem wholly invited by the player that could have been avoided, which is probably why 54MU31 sees no harm in waving their hand and ignoring it. The problem is, that bypasses the teaching moment that helps the player avoid making that mistake in the future.
The one that most often feels like a "gotcha" that players can't avoid, is when they take a Bonus Action to cast something like Expeditious Retreat, move around, and fall into a pit or something and go to cast Feather Fall with a reaction to save their life.... ooooh, sorrryyyyyyy, you just die :(
So, l don't remember where, but l heard or read somewhere that you can use a cantrip and a leveled spell on the same turn if that spell is a bonus action (for example healing word+firebolt)
Is this true? If so, am l correct in asumeing this would still work for spells effected by a sorcerers "quickened spell" metamagic, allowing them to, say, cast lightning bolt and firebolt in the same turn?
Edit: Glad to know i'm right! That's the final piece l needed for the "puzzle".
Yes, the rule in question is this below.
Bonus Action
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
To add to the above, there are several abilities that allow for the ability to cast a spell as a bonus action in conjunction with another spell/action, however, you are only able to cast a single leveled spell on your turn regardless of if it is an action or bonus action.
There is also an argument to be made that you might be able to cast a leveled spell as a bonus action if the action you used to cast a spell was via a spell scroll or magic item that cast the spell for you, but that would be DM discression.
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Sounds like you've got it. Just remember the action spell can only be a cantrip.
You can definitely cast multiple leveled spells per turn. It’s just that there are very few ways to do that without one being a bonus action. If you multiclass, or are an Eldritch Knight, you can Action Surge two fireballs out at once.
However, if anything is cast as a bonus action, even a cantrip such as shillelagh, both of those actions can only be cantrips.
Its a very arguable argument.
Chapter 9 describes the [Tooltip Not Found] action, which isn't always an Action but might instead by a Bonus Action or a Reaction as described by a spell or by a feature interacting with a spell.
That Chapter 9 [Tooltip Not Found] language is not where the Bonus Action restriction is found, we'll get to that in a second.
Chapter 9 also doesn't even describe the action used to read scrolls or use other magic items, because that action is not the [Tooltip Not Found] action found in Chapter 9, but rather a special Activate an Item action which is only described in the DMG (great design there guys...). It's pretty long ability to quote in one block, so I'm going to snip out a couple bits that aren't relevent:
This section, again, doesn't make any mention of the special Bonus Action restriction, but does make clear that Activate an Item isn't a defined action/bonus action/reaction, but instead follows the spell's "normal casting time," unless the item "bypass[es] the casting of a spell and confers the spell's effects" without casting, or otherwise provides specific "exceptions to these rules, changing the casting time."
A lot to unpack there, but... taken together, you can cast a spell with [Tooltip Not Found], or sometimes with Activate an Item, but you may be able to sometimes get a spell's benefit from Activate an Item without casting a spell. If there's a specific item out there that does something like provide the benefit of a spell without casting the spell (like Necklace of Fireballs) and does so as a Bonus Action, that could be important... but off the top of my head, I'm not aware of any specifically?
When you are casting a spell, regardless of what action you're using, "the same basic rules are followed" found in Chapter 10. Among those rules is the special Bonus Action rule already quoted above:
With all of that in mind... I would think that the Chapter 10 "basic rule" about casting Bonus Action spells is not restricted to [Tooltip Not Found] spellcasting, but instead also encompasses Activate an Item spellcasting. But if there's a bonus-action-Necklace of Fireballs out there that gives you a spell effect without casting a spell, that would not suffer the Bonus Action restriction.
Agreed?
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This is not true. The rule is that you can cast one spell per turn, not action. Action surge gives you an additional action within the same turn, maintaining the limit. Notice this Sage Advice that specifies.
~
To Chicken_Champ, (I'm not going to quote you because there is a lot there) Here is some Sage Advice that discusses this very thing (albeit poorly). What it comes down to is that using a magic item to cast a spell is not considered to be casting a spell or activating an item, but is instead its own action. Since it is its own action and not taking the action of Cast a Spell, feasibly the user of the magic item could cast their own spell as a bonus action if they have the ability to do so. This would also exclude magic from said item from class/race/feats that would otherwise augment their effects. I'm not saying this is the way I would rule it, but it is something that can be argued.
My point was more of someone using their action to use a magic item then casting a spell as a bonus action, not the other way around.
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There is no rule that limits you to one leveled spell per turn. It doesn’t exist. That Sage Advice link doesn’t even reference double fireballs on a turn where you don’t Misty Step. As long as you aren’t bonus action casting, you can Action Surge fireball.
Edit: In fact, this other post (also on the front page of this very subforum) also discusses this, but with lightning bolt instead of fireball.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/rules-game-mechanics/110543-is-this-legal
You are totally right. I'm sorry. I misinterpreted what was being said. There is some sage advice here that says
"There’s no rule that says you can cast only X number of spells on your turn, but there are some practical limits. The main limiting factor is your action. Most spells require an action to cast, and unless you use a feature like the fighter’s Action Surge, you have only one action on your turn.
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it." (emphasis added)
Weird how that works like that. This feels like one of those situations where there is contradictory information about this between what has been officially made Sage advice, and what designers (mostly JC) have said about it in interviews and on Twitter. Offical Sage Advice beats out tweets for me though.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
You're either wrong about the first part of your post, or you've phrased things poorly so you're being misunderstood. There is no restriction on casting multiple spells with multiple actions, if you have more than one action to burn (via Action Surge).
-
You're very wrong about the second. The language I quoted from the DMG is quite explicit that Activating an Item can result in a spell either by (1) casting that spell, or (2) Conferring the spell's effects without casting it. Items that let you (1) cast a spell, absolutely follow the same rules about casting a spell that are found in Chapter 10 which apply to the [Tooltip Not Found] action. It's only the second type, those that let you (2) confer the effects of a spell without casting it, which arguably can escape some or all of the Chapter 10 rules.
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YEP! This thread was actually the last piece of research I needed to make that! (I'm the OP of both this thread and that one, incase that needed mentioning.)
Again, I'm not saying that I would rule it that way but I can see it being argued, especially if the item in question functions without the need of a spellcaster to use it in the first place. A Magic item that is dependant on the user's spellcasting ability would be much harder to defend this position on because it is being affected by one's own ability to use spells, however for things like having a built-in DC or to hit mods, the magic is being done by the object, not enabled through it.
I will admit I have built a very niche strawman for the sake of argument, but it is something that I can totally see a DM allowing RAW or not, and figured it would be worth bringing up as a possibility.
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"Play the game however you want to play the game. After all, your fun doesn't threaten my fun."
You are right about that sage advice being poorly written (that is why it is not an official ruling, and only "advice"). It is also mostly about theirs fast hands and irrelevant to the discussion. But JC eventually correctly said to follow the rules in the DMG. The same rules CC just quoted.
Now the funny thing about spell casting, is that none of the rules require the "[Tooltip Not Found]" action to cast a spell, nor are they only limited in their application to that action.
Basically, the cast a spell action is to spells what the attack action is to weapon attacks. And just like how the rules for weapon attacks don't only apply to the attack action, the rules for spellcasting apply anytime a spell is cast.
In other words, casting a spell from an item with an action still counts as casting a spell with an action, and the spellcasting rules apply to it as normal including if a spell was cast as a bonus action.
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I'd like to point out that you can not cast any reaction spells before or after casting a bonus action spell that turn, even a cantrip (though such a circumstance is rare).
Yeah, I can’t put my finger on why that chart doesn’t do it for me, but that really feels more confusing than just remembering Bonus Action spell -> Action Cantrip only, no loopholes.
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Given the very numerous examples on these forums of people who get confused when told this, I figured a flowchart is an alternate way to express the idea in case it was helpful for those who don't get it from just being told the rule.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
As a DM, if one of my players wanted to cast a cantrip with a bonus action (Likely Quickened Spell Metamagic), and wanted to cast a leveled spell with an action, I'd allow it. It's virtually the same as casting a leveled spell with a bonus action and a cantrip with an action.
In this case why not just use Quickened Spell on the levelled spell rather than the cantrip? I agree they’re essentially the same thing but since the rules as written make this distinction I don’t see why casting the cantrip as a bonus action would be beneficial
You're right that that sounds like a problem wholly invited by the player that could have been avoided, which is probably why 54MU31 sees no harm in waving their hand and ignoring it. The problem is, that bypasses the teaching moment that helps the player avoid making that mistake in the future.
The one that most often feels like a "gotcha" that players can't avoid, is when they take a Bonus Action to cast something like Expeditious Retreat, move around, and fall into a pit or something and go to cast Feather Fall with a reaction to save their life.... ooooh, sorrryyyyyyy, you just die :(
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.