Are you able to use a cantrip that can cause damage against an enemy or make them disadvantaged before initiative is rolled?
I can't remember the cantrip, but our bard had visual of what may or may not have been an enemy. He yelled an insult and I think it caused the creature to have disadvantage, but the DM made us roll initiative and wouldn't let the cantrip affect take place before any sort of battle began. We're all new, and I just want some clarification.
The usual handling is what your DM appears to have done.
Initiative is an abstraction of combat order, and it's the first thing done when an encounter "starts", as explained in the Player's Handbook, page 189 (or here), under the "Order of Combat" and "Initiative" paragraphs.
What signifies the "start" of an encounter can be a little up to interpretation (by the DM), but it usually is the first offensive action (or the appearance of an enemy). When that happens, everyone rolls initiative, including the one that declared that first offensive action.
Why? Surprise comes into play here (also in the section referenced above). See, when someone surprises everyone involved in an encounter such as when an assassin leaps out of the shadows to attack an ally, or someone just headbutts someone else during an otherwise peaceful meeting, even allies of said instigator can be surprised. That kind of combat usually starts with initiative, which brings everyone to a first round where everyone except the first attacker is surprised (it's usually a fast round :p ).
Now, if your bard was such a surprising attacker, I expect your first round would have been similar. But if not, and the situation was hostile (just without people actively hitting each other), people may react at any sign of threat (such as spellcasting) which is what combat initiative represents (and let's not forget, even on a clean "all surprised" round, there are traits that allow characters to never be surprised, such as the Alert feat).
The cantrip you're talking about is vicious mockery and the disadvantage only affects attack rolls. The next attack roll, whether it was in initiative or outside of it, would have been rolled at disadvantage.
"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Ah, our bard was under the impression that it could have been done before the battle took place because we didn't know the intent of the creature. We were all just staring at each other and he just blurted out some insults, hoping that if the creature attacked, he'd be disadvantaged. DM didn't take time to explain at you have, even though we inquired. He's also brand new to DMing.
A bit more to this, as something similar (almost identical actually) happened in my game, where our bard wanted to initiate combat with a spell.
As written, what should have happened is the bard should have declared he wanted to cast the spell, and everyone should have rolled initiative.
Chances are, there would have been enemies higher in the initiative order than your bard, but as mentioned by Onyx, assuming you were hidden, they'd be surprised. Now there isn't a 'surprise round' - surprise is a status given to enemies (or your party) that means they can't do anything on their first, aside from 'be surprised'.
As for the other players in your party, if they were higher in the initiative order, they wouldn't be surprised, but they could simply decide to wait, or ready an action, or dodge to allow the bard to get his spell off.
If the bard starts the battle with a spell without warning even their party members, then I would rule that everyone in the battle is surprised except the bard (plus anyone who is immune to surprise). That will generally look like a single round out battle where only the bard acts, then the initiative order would start as normal after that. I would, though, be sure to apply an in-world penalty to behaviour like this. If this bard and the party gets a reputation for starting sudden, unexpected fights by hurling spells mid conversation then all sorts of NPCs and possibly diplomatic enemies would be less eager to invite them in for a chat...
It was a nothic (reviewed my notes), in a dungeon, no one else around. We weren't really sure what to do so that was his solution, lol. He was trying to scare it off so we didn't have to battle it. But I do agree that bad things could happen if done outside of that situation. He's not going to do anything like that, though. He does things with our best interest in mind. :) We're a very small group of long time friends. We're just learning together and having a blast.
If the bard starts the battle with a spell without warning even their party members, then I would rule that everyone in the battle is surprised except the bard (plus anyone who is immune to surprise). That will generally look like a single round out battle where only the bard acts, then the initiative order would start as normal after that. I would, though, be sure to apply an in-world penalty to behaviour like this. If this bard and the party gets a reputation for starting sudden, unexpected fights by hurling spells mid conversation then all sorts of NPCs and possibly diplomatic enemies would be less eager to invite them in for a chat...
It's simple for you to rule this in, but RAW, it's not possible to surprise anyone, unless the attacker is hidden from the target. There's no such thing as a surprise round. 'The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other' (PHB 189)
Of course, you can house-rule it as you've suggested, but that's dangerous territory. It essentially allows you a free attack on an enemy, just by saying you 'want to attack first' or 'I cast a spell mid-conversation!' Enemies get the chance to respond to your aggressive action, and if they're higher on the initiative order, they get to act before you. If they're surprised, then they still go before you, they just can't do anything on their first turn. But If the target knows you're there, they cannot be surprised.
It was a nothic (reviewed my notes), in a dungeon, no one else around. We weren't really sure what to do so that was his solution, lol. He was trying to scare it off so we didn't have to battle it. But I do agree that bad things could happen if done outside of that situation. He's not going to do anything like that, though. He does things with our best interest in mind. :) We're a very small group of long time friends. We're just learning together and having a blast.
Are you playing the Lost Mines of Phandelver campaign - is this the nothic in the Redbrand Hideout? Your DM made the right call, in my opinion. Remember: rolling initiative doesn't always mean you're wanting to attack the creature. It simply marks the start of the turn-based mechanics of the game. Using vicious mockery causes the creature to have disadvantage on its next attack roll, until it's next turn. Therefore it needs that mechanical framework, to be able to determine when that is. If I was DMing that session, I'd have the nothic slink back into the shadows for the turn it had disadvantage on, reeling from the spell. So you'd have bought yourself a round to flee, or try something else. But of course, if the nothic was higher in the initiative order, it could choose to attack before the bard could cast the spell - rushing to attack him as soon as it noticed he was about to cast!
Of course, if you're just wanting to scare the nothic, or let it know you're ready to fight if it came to it, then the rest of the players could simply ready actions and wait to see what the nothic would do. If you just wanted to hurl insults at the nothic, then your bard should perhaps have considered just yelling out insults (perhaps with an intimidation check), rather than casting a spell.
If the bard wanted to absolutely make sure he viciously mocked the nothic before it could do anything, he'd need to have been hidden - perhaps sneaking into the cavern, beating the nothic's perception, and hurling his magical insults while the nothic was caught unawares!
D&D is great for trying clever new ways of handling situations. Casting vicious mockery to scare the nothic so you wouldn't have to fight it is potentially a good idea - or could potentially cause the nothic to act in a hostile way to the players. Either way, you've tried something new.
If the bard starts the battle with a spell without warning even their party members, then I would rule that everyone in the battle is surprised except the bard (plus anyone who is immune to surprise). ...
It's simple for you to rule this in, but RAW, it's not possible to surprise anyone, unless the attacker is hidden from the target. There's no such thing as a surprise round. 'The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other' (PHB 189)
Of course, you can house-rule it as you've suggested, but that's dangerous territory...
Per RAW it is possible to surprise someone via whatever means the DM determines. It's right there in your own quote. Personally, I think that attacking something in a situation where it is not expecting an attack is exactly what generates surprise, whether that is because a hostile enemy cannot see you approach or because a creature was not hostile and didn't think you were either until you started hurling spells around. If an enemy is wary of you and prepared for foul play (as it sounds like this nothic would have been) then that is a different situation. And yes, I accept that starting a fight like that grants a free turn to attack, but it is a trick that won't work for long and the costs of doing it may prove far worse than the easier victory in those few battles.
Are you able to use a cantrip that can cause damage against an enemy or make them disadvantaged before initiative is rolled?
If you are trying to determine if the caster gets the cantrip off before the foe can attack then that is exactly the sort of timing question initiative is for. Roll initiative before resolving the spells and attacks.
One or more figures taking part may be surprised, but you still roll initiative. There is no "surprise round".
Per RAW it is possible to surprise someone via whatever means the DM determines. It's right there in your own quote.
It's not - the quote states that the DM determines if anyone is surprised. It then stipulates that the DM does this by determining if anyone was trying to be stealthy. If nobody was, everyone notices each other, and therefore aren't surprised. The full quote:
'The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.' (PHB 189)
To be surprised, you must be caught off guard, usually because you failed to notice foes being stealthy or you were startled by an enemy with a special ability, such as the gelatinous cube’s Transparent trait, that makes it exceptionally surprising. You can be surprised even if your companions aren’t, and you aren't surprised if even one of your foes fails to catch you unawares.
In short, activity in a combat is always ordered by initiative, whether or not someone is surprised, and after the first found of combat has passed, surprise is no longer a factor. You can still try to hide from your foes and gain the benefits conferred by being hidden, but you don’t deprive your foes of their turns when you do so.
You're right in that the DM can rule anything they like though - so if a combat action outside of initiative works for you, or perhaps there's a skill check to see if the player can avoid telegraphing their attack, then go for it.
Remember though, surprise is exceptionally powerful, which is why it's hard to achieve.
Are you able to use a cantrip that can cause damage against an enemy or make them disadvantaged before initiative is rolled?
I can't remember the cantrip, but our bard had visual of what may or may not have been an enemy. He yelled an insult and I think it caused the creature to have disadvantage, but the DM made us roll initiative and wouldn't let the cantrip affect take place before any sort of battle began. We're all new, and I just want some clarification.
Thanks in advance!
The usual handling is what your DM appears to have done.
Initiative is an abstraction of combat order, and it's the first thing done when an encounter "starts", as explained in the Player's Handbook, page 189 (or here), under the "Order of Combat" and "Initiative" paragraphs.
What signifies the "start" of an encounter can be a little up to interpretation (by the DM), but it usually is the first offensive action (or the appearance of an enemy).
When that happens, everyone rolls initiative, including the one that declared that first offensive action.
Why? Surprise comes into play here (also in the section referenced above). See, when someone surprises everyone involved in an encounter such as when an assassin leaps out of the shadows to attack an ally, or someone just headbutts someone else during an otherwise peaceful meeting, even allies of said instigator can be surprised.
That kind of combat usually starts with initiative, which brings everyone to a first round where everyone except the first attacker is surprised (it's usually a fast round :p ).
Now, if your bard was such a surprising attacker, I expect your first round would have been similar. But if not, and the situation was hostile (just without people actively hitting each other), people may react at any sign of threat (such as spellcasting) which is what combat initiative represents (and let's not forget, even on a clean "all surprised" round, there are traits that allow characters to never be surprised, such as the Alert feat).
First off, welcome to the forums Jen!
The cantrip you're talking about is vicious mockery and the disadvantage only affects attack rolls. The next attack roll, whether it was in initiative or outside of it, would have been rolled at disadvantage.
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"The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchett
Ah, our bard was under the impression that it could have been done before the battle took place because we didn't know the intent of the creature. We were all just staring at each other and he just blurted out some insults, hoping that if the creature attacked, he'd be disadvantaged. DM didn't take time to explain at you have, even though we inquired. He's also brand new to DMing.
Thank you. I couldn't remember if it was that one or not. :)
A bit more to this, as something similar (almost identical actually) happened in my game, where our bard wanted to initiate combat with a spell.
As written, what should have happened is the bard should have declared he wanted to cast the spell, and everyone should have rolled initiative.
Chances are, there would have been enemies higher in the initiative order than your bard, but as mentioned by Onyx, assuming you were hidden, they'd be surprised. Now there isn't a 'surprise round' - surprise is a status given to enemies (or your party) that means they can't do anything on their first, aside from 'be surprised'.
As for the other players in your party, if they were higher in the initiative order, they wouldn't be surprised, but they could simply decide to wait, or ready an action, or dodge to allow the bard to get his spell off.
Then the battle continues as normal.
If the bard starts the battle with a spell without warning even their party members, then I would rule that everyone in the battle is surprised except the bard (plus anyone who is immune to surprise). That will generally look like a single round out battle where only the bard acts, then the initiative order would start as normal after that. I would, though, be sure to apply an in-world penalty to behaviour like this. If this bard and the party gets a reputation for starting sudden, unexpected fights by hurling spells mid conversation then all sorts of NPCs and possibly diplomatic enemies would be less eager to invite them in for a chat...
It was a nothic (reviewed my notes), in a dungeon, no one else around. We weren't really sure what to do so that was his solution, lol. He was trying to scare it off so we didn't have to battle it. But I do agree that bad things could happen if done outside of that situation. He's not going to do anything like that, though. He does things with our best interest in mind. :) We're a very small group of long time friends. We're just learning together and having a blast.
It's simple for you to rule this in, but RAW, it's not possible to surprise anyone, unless the attacker is hidden from the target. There's no such thing as a surprise round. 'The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other' (PHB 189)
Of course, you can house-rule it as you've suggested, but that's dangerous territory. It essentially allows you a free attack on an enemy, just by saying you 'want to attack first' or 'I cast a spell mid-conversation!' Enemies get the chance to respond to your aggressive action, and if they're higher on the initiative order, they get to act before you. If they're surprised, then they still go before you, they just can't do anything on their first turn. But If the target knows you're there, they cannot be surprised.
Are you playing the Lost Mines of Phandelver campaign - is this the nothic in the Redbrand Hideout? Your DM made the right call, in my opinion. Remember: rolling initiative doesn't always mean you're wanting to attack the creature. It simply marks the start of the turn-based mechanics of the game. Using vicious mockery causes the creature to have disadvantage on its next attack roll, until it's next turn. Therefore it needs that mechanical framework, to be able to determine when that is. If I was DMing that session, I'd have the nothic slink back into the shadows for the turn it had disadvantage on, reeling from the spell. So you'd have bought yourself a round to flee, or try something else. But of course, if the nothic was higher in the initiative order, it could choose to attack before the bard could cast the spell - rushing to attack him as soon as it noticed he was about to cast!
Of course, if you're just wanting to scare the nothic, or let it know you're ready to fight if it came to it, then the rest of the players could simply ready actions and wait to see what the nothic would do. If you just wanted to hurl insults at the nothic, then your bard should perhaps have considered just yelling out insults (perhaps with an intimidation check), rather than casting a spell.
If the bard wanted to absolutely make sure he viciously mocked the nothic before it could do anything, he'd need to have been hidden - perhaps sneaking into the cavern, beating the nothic's perception, and hurling his magical insults while the nothic was caught unawares!
D&D is great for trying clever new ways of handling situations. Casting vicious mockery to scare the nothic so you wouldn't have to fight it is potentially a good idea - or could potentially cause the nothic to act in a hostile way to the players. Either way, you've tried something new.
Per RAW it is possible to surprise someone via whatever means the DM determines. It's right there in your own quote. Personally, I think that attacking something in a situation where it is not expecting an attack is exactly what generates surprise, whether that is because a hostile enemy cannot see you approach or because a creature was not hostile and didn't think you were either until you started hurling spells around. If an enemy is wary of you and prepared for foul play (as it sounds like this nothic would have been) then that is a different situation. And yes, I accept that starting a fight like that grants a free turn to attack, but it is a trick that won't work for long and the costs of doing it may prove far worse than the easier victory in those few battles.
If you are trying to determine if the caster gets the cantrip off before the foe can attack then that is exactly the sort of timing question initiative is for. Roll initiative before resolving the spells and attacks.
One or more figures taking part may be surprised, but you still roll initiative. There is no "surprise round".
It's not - the quote states that the DM determines if anyone is surprised. It then stipulates that the DM does this by determining if anyone was trying to be stealthy. If nobody was, everyone notices each other, and therefore aren't surprised. The full quote:
The wizards article (http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-november-2015) talks about surprise. Quote (bold for emphasis):
You're right in that the DM can rule anything they like though - so if a combat action outside of initiative works for you, or perhaps there's a skill check to see if the player can avoid telegraphing their attack, then go for it.
Remember though, surprise is exceptionally powerful, which is why it's hard to achieve.