At 17th level, you can roll three additional weapon damage dice when determining the extra damage for a critical hit with a melee attack.
I want to read this that when they crit while wielding a Greatsword that they would roll 3 extra sets of the damage dice, or 6d6. I get the feeling that it would only be 3d6. Which is it? Is this an instance where the Greataxe's 1d12 would be strictly better?
3 extra weapon die. So yes a single d12 weapon benefits in this instance. Same with half-orcs savage attacker...fun fact if you have a magical weapon that we'll say does slashing and fire damage you can choose between the slashing or fire damage for that extra die.
The math is better for the d12 on average but it's not a significant enough difference to feel like your getting seriously hosed. You'll probably deal enough damage with your regular attacks to make up for or at least approach the loss on the criticals.
With a 3-level dip in Fighter with Great-Weapon Fighting Style. I was thinking maybe Champion.
Great weapon fighting does favor the 2d6 (more chances to roll a 1 or 2), but if the dip was for champion for the expanded crit range (and if you're running Reckless Attack a lot on top of it) you might lag behind on the damage compared to the d12. Then, if you're a half orc on top of it...
Again, if you're in a crit fisher build with extra crit damage, the d12 is better if you are criting frequently. I don't recall what the rate needs to be to make up for the gains the 2d6 makes on normal attacks though.
There's a reason why Greataxes are the best barbarian weapons, brutal critical is very very brutal with a greatsword, and half-orc characters especially.
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And with Great Weapon Fighting Style the re-roll 1s and 2a all the times probably balances things out overall I would imagine. Especially with a Flame Tongue rocking 4d6 on a regular hit anyway. Does that sound about right? And then it ends up being 11d6 on a crit. Compared to a Flame Tongue Greataxe would be 5d12+4d6 on a crit. So the crit numbers would still be roughly the same, but the overall damage for non crits goes up.
Hello, everyone! We recently had this conversation at my table so I decided to crunch the numbers for myself. Here is what I found
TL:DR - a 2d6 weapon is better for any class below Fighter level 15 or Barbarian level 13.
Personally, I would still prefer a 2d6 weapon over a 1d12 weapon because...
-The 2d6 deals more consistent damage
-Even when you do reach those levels, the 1d12 weapon only has marginally higher average. That higher damage is only seen on critical hits and is not worth sacrificing the 2d6 weapon's consistency for the other 85%+ of your attacks that aren't crits
-Some of the Multiclass, feat and weapon combinations required to give 1d12 weapons the higher average aren't worth it
Assuming everything else is equal, a 1d12 weapon only has higher average damage than a 2d6 weapon in the following circumstances.
-Your critical hits deal 6d12 or 7d12. This can be achieved via a combination of the barbarian feature Brutal Critical, the half-orc racial Savage Attacks, and/or the piercer feat
-You critically hit a target on 18,19 and 20, Your critical hits deal 4(or more)d12's, you do not have great weapon fighting. This can be achieved by reaching 15th level in Fighter as the champion Subclass, combined with half orc's savage attacks racial and taking the piercer feat
-You critically hit a target on 19 and 20, your critical hits deal 5(or more)d12's, you do not have great weapon fighting. This can be achieved by taking 17 levels in barbarian with three levels in fighter as the champion subclass
-You critically hit a target on 19 and 20, your critical hits deal 6(or more)d12's, you do have great weapon fighting. This can be achieved by taking 17 levels in barbarian with three levels in fighter as the champion subclass
And now for the math....
Average damage of a 1d12 weapon is calculated as (6.5) + [(number of dice thrown on crit) × (6.5) × (number of natural d20 rolls that crit/20)]
Average Damage of a 2d6 weapon is calculated as (7) +[(Number of dice thrown on crit) × (3.5) × (number of natural d20 rolls that crit/20)]
Average damage of a 1d12 weapon with great weapon fighting is calculated as follows;
[(*sum of integers 3 through 12* +6.5+6.5)/12] + {(number of dice thrown on crit) × [(*sum of integers 3 through 12* +6.5+6.5)/12] × (number of natural d20 rolls that crit)}/20
Average Damage of 2d6 weapon with great weapon fighting is calculated as follows;
[(*sum of integers 3 through 6* +3.5+3.5)/12] +{(number of dice thrown on crit) × [(*sum of integers 3 through 6* +3.5+3.5)/12] ×(number of natural d20 rolls that crit)}/20
Below is a chart using those calculations to predict average damage. 9d6 is included in the off chance your DM allows a Greatsword to deal piercing damage (via using it to stab or some other creative reasoning) or you happen to find a homebrew 2d6 piercing weapon
And that concludes my presentation. Thank you for coming to my ted-talk!
Edit* a 2d6 weapon that crits on 18,19 and 20 for 5d6 damage averages 9.625 per round
Edit* a 2d6 weapon with great weapon master that crits on 19 and 20 for 5d6 damage averages 10.416 per round
The difference between the two is negligible. Choose whichever means more fun for you consistent damage (2d6) or bigger crits/top end damage. Having played the d12 half orc barbarian through level 6, I can say that I didn't feel too bad about my damage consistency and those crits get exciting. I was also tanking for a bunch of ranged characters with a rogue dealing high consistent damage, a warlock bringing some consistent damage with some spikey shatter moments and a grave cleric supporting us while bringing Toll the Dead and Spiritual Weapon. It's possible that if the party was more dependent on my consistent damage, then I would have felt it more when I rolled lower. As is I don't remember having lower rolls, which tells me it wasn't a big concern for me. Do what sounds fun to you. Knowing the difference between them will inform those decisions.
Lance, Piercer feat, Half Orc, Zealot Barbarian. No GWM so getting 24 str/con is a good option. 1d12+7 (lance) +4 (rage) + 1d6 +10 (divine Fury) on a hit with another 1d12+7+4 on the second attack, reroll available on one of them if under the threshold that you choose to reroll. However, that crit happens more frequently with Reckless attacks and the reach and special properties of a lance incentivize more of a striker playstyle, which could incentivize more reckless attacks if you aren't taking as much damage long term.
That crit on the first hit is 7d12+2d6+21 and can reroll the one die that really offends you. If on the second attack, it's only 7d12+11. Sure getting 8d6+2d6+21+10+a bonus action attack is nice with GWM, 66 average damage plus the bonus attack is nothing to sneeze at. 70.5 doesn't look quite as cool. But that ceiling of 117 sure looks nice compared to that curling of 101, granted that floor of 30 looks a lot worse than 41.
Ok. Probably better to stick with the Greataxe and GWM for your D12 fun. But it's at least an option.
How does that figure in with a crazy (accurately) elf, as they roll 3d20 when having advantage?
It sadly doesn't work out as well as you would think. The Elven Accuracy feat only applies to attack rolls made with Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha and Barbarian Rage bonus damage only applies to Strength based attacks. I haven't crunched the numbers but my guess is that the loss on Rage damage outweighs the gains in crit damage.
How does that figure in with a crazy (accurately) elf, as they roll 3d20 when having advantage?
It sadly doesn't work out as well as you would think. The Elven Accuracy feat only applies to attack rolls made with Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha and Barbarian Rage bonus damage only applies to Strength based attacks. I haven't crunched the numbers but my guess is that the loss on Rage damage outweighs the gains in crit damage.
It's worse than that. RAW, reckless attacks only work with attacks made with strength, so there is no interaction with Elven Accuracy.
I want to read this that when they crit while wielding a Greatsword that they would roll 3 extra sets of the damage dice, or 6d6. I get the feeling that it would only be 3d6. Which is it? Is this an instance where the Greataxe's 1d12 would be strictly better?
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3 extra weapon die. So yes a single d12 weapon benefits in this instance. Same with half-orcs savage attacker...fun fact if you have a magical weapon that we'll say does slashing and fire damage you can choose between the slashing or fire damage for that extra die.
J Craw has clerified this in sage advice.
Bummer, that doesn’t help a Flame Tongue Greatsword.
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Thank you for the response. 🙏
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The math is better for the d12 on average but it's not a significant enough difference to feel like your getting seriously hosed. You'll probably deal enough damage with your regular attacks to make up for or at least approach the loss on the criticals.
With a 3-level dip in Fighter with Great-Weapon Fighting Style. I was thinking maybe Champion.
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Great weapon fighting does favor the 2d6 (more chances to roll a 1 or 2), but if the dip was for champion for the expanded crit range (and if you're running Reckless Attack a lot on top of it) you might lag behind on the damage compared to the d12. Then, if you're a half orc on top of it...
Again, if you're in a crit fisher build with extra crit damage, the d12 is better if you are criting frequently. I don't recall what the rate needs to be to make up for the gains the 2d6 makes on normal attacks though.
There's a reason why Greataxes are the best barbarian weapons, brutal critical is very very brutal with a greatsword, and half-orc characters especially.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Not necessarily crit fishing, just trying to see how everything fits together.
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So 5d12 versus 7d6 for total dice rolled on a critical versus 1d12 versus 2d6 on a regular hit.
So with 19-20 Crit: Greataxe will do an average of 9.1 points of base damage, Greatsword will do 8.75 points of damage.
Regular 20 Crit: Greataxe 7.8, Greatsword 7.8
So only with Improved Critical or better does it actually have an effect on damage potential.
And with Great Weapon Fighting Style the re-roll 1s and 2a all the times probably balances things out overall I would imagine. Especially with a Flame Tongue rocking 4d6 on a regular hit anyway. Does that sound about right? And then it ends up being 11d6 on a crit. Compared to a Flame Tongue Greataxe would be 5d12+4d6 on a crit. So the crit numbers would still be roughly the same, but the overall damage for non crits goes up.
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Hello, everyone! We recently had this conversation at my table so I decided to crunch the numbers for myself. Here is what I found
TL:DR - a 2d6 weapon is better for any class below Fighter level 15 or Barbarian level 13.
Personally, I would still prefer a 2d6 weapon over a 1d12 weapon because...
-The 2d6 deals more consistent damage
-Even when you do reach those levels, the 1d12 weapon only has marginally higher average. That higher damage is only seen on critical hits and is not worth sacrificing the 2d6 weapon's consistency for the other 85%+ of your attacks that aren't crits
-Some of the Multiclass, feat and weapon combinations required to give 1d12 weapons the higher average aren't worth it
Assuming everything else is equal, a 1d12 weapon only has higher average damage than a 2d6 weapon in the following circumstances.
-Your critical hits deal 6d12 or 7d12. This can be achieved via a combination of the barbarian feature Brutal Critical, the half-orc racial Savage Attacks, and/or the piercer feat
-You critically hit a target on 18,19 and 20, Your critical hits deal 4(or more)d12's, you do not have great weapon fighting. This can be achieved by reaching 15th level in Fighter as the champion Subclass, combined with half orc's savage attacks racial and taking the piercer feat
-You critically hit a target on 19 and 20, your critical hits deal 5(or more)d12's, you do not have great weapon fighting. This can be achieved by taking 17 levels in barbarian with three levels in fighter as the champion subclass
-You critically hit a target on 19 and 20, your critical hits deal 6(or more)d12's, you do have great weapon fighting. This can be achieved by taking 17 levels in barbarian with three levels in fighter as the champion subclass
And now for the math....
Average damage of a 1d12 weapon is calculated as (6.5) + [(number of dice thrown on crit) × (6.5) × (number of natural d20 rolls that crit/20)]
Average Damage of a 2d6 weapon is calculated as (7) +[(Number of dice thrown on crit) × (3.5) × (number of natural d20 rolls that crit/20)]
Average damage of a 1d12 weapon with great weapon fighting is calculated as follows;
[(*sum of integers 3 through 12* +6.5+6.5)/12] + {(number of dice thrown on crit) × [(*sum of integers 3 through 12* +6.5+6.5)/12] × (number of natural d20 rolls that crit)}/20
Average Damage of 2d6 weapon with great weapon fighting is calculated as follows;
[(*sum of integers 3 through 6* +3.5+3.5)/12] +{(number of dice thrown on crit) × [(*sum of integers 3 through 6* +3.5+3.5)/12] ×(number of natural d20 rolls that crit)}/20
Below is a chart using those calculations to predict average damage. 9d6 is included in the off chance your DM allows a Greatsword to deal piercing damage (via using it to stab or some other creative reasoning) or you happen to find a homebrew 2d6 piercing weapon
And that concludes my presentation. Thank you for coming to my ted-talk!
Edit* a 2d6 weapon that crits on 18,19 and 20 for 5d6 damage averages 9.625 per round
Edit* a 2d6 weapon with great weapon master that crits on 19 and 20 for 5d6 damage averages 10.416 per round
But... but 1d12 weapons are more fun...
The difference between the two is negligible. Choose whichever means more fun for you consistent damage (2d6) or bigger crits/top end damage. Having played the d12 half orc barbarian through level 6, I can say that I didn't feel too bad about my damage consistency and those crits get exciting. I was also tanking for a bunch of ranged characters with a rogue dealing high consistent damage, a warlock bringing some consistent damage with some spikey shatter moments and a grave cleric supporting us while bringing Toll the Dead and Spiritual Weapon. It's possible that if the party was more dependent on my consistent damage, then I would have felt it more when I rolled lower. As is I don't remember having lower rolls, which tells me it wasn't a big concern for me. Do what sounds fun to you. Knowing the difference between them will inform those decisions.
I like d12s, d6s are just so... common! 😝
Lance, Piercer feat, Half Orc, Zealot Barbarian. No GWM so getting 24 str/con is a good option. 1d12+7 (lance) +4 (rage) + 1d6 +10 (divine Fury) on a hit with another 1d12+7+4 on the second attack, reroll available on one of them if under the threshold that you choose to reroll. However, that crit happens more frequently with Reckless attacks and the reach and special properties of a lance incentivize more of a striker playstyle, which could incentivize more reckless attacks if you aren't taking as much damage long term.
That crit on the first hit is 7d12+2d6+21 and can reroll the one die that really offends you. If on the second attack, it's only 7d12+11. Sure getting 8d6+2d6+21+10+a bonus action attack is nice with GWM, 66 average damage plus the bonus attack is nothing to sneeze at. 70.5 doesn't look quite as cool. But that ceiling of 117 sure looks nice compared to that curling of 101, granted that floor of 30 looks a lot worse than 41.
Ok. Probably better to stick with the Greataxe and GWM for your D12 fun. But it's at least an option.
How does that figure in with a crazy (accurately) elf, as they roll 3d20 when having advantage?
It sadly doesn't work out as well as you would think. The Elven Accuracy feat only applies to attack rolls made with Dex, Int, Wis, or Cha and Barbarian Rage bonus damage only applies to Strength based attacks. I haven't crunched the numbers but my guess is that the loss on Rage damage outweighs the gains in crit damage.
It's worse than that. RAW, reckless attacks only work with attacks made with strength, so there is no interaction with Elven Accuracy.
Oh, that does makes sense though. Thanks :)