Lets say an Orc Barbarian goes for a grapple on an Elf Sorceress and succeeds on the strength roll vs the elf and now is holding onto her with intention of restraining her. On the elf's turn, instead of doing a strength or dex check, could she use a touch spell, such as Shocking Grasp to force the break. If were to try Shocking Grasp on the orc, would that be considered an auto hit, as one can argue since he is holding onto her, there would be enough body to body contact as trying to hold on as tight as possible not wanting to let her go? If not an auto hit, then with advantage?
A restrained creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
The creature has disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.
This means that the Elf Sorceress has disadvantage on the attack roll with the touch spell - this can be reasoned a number of ways, but ultimately it's because they have been grappled and are not in control of the situation.
By RAW being in a grapple doesn't grant any kind of autohits. Think of it as you still need to land a decisive hit, not just touch. Shocking Grasp will not help the Elf escape the Grapple as it doesn't make them autofail a Strength tests, it makes them unable to take Reactions. The Elf's speed is still 0.
Stormknight, already posted the Restrained rules. You mentioned the Orc Barbarian has the intention to restrain, so I'll assume the Orc Barbarian has the Grappler feat, because unless it has a special NPC rule it can't actually Restrain a target.
For this to work the Orc Barbarian has to first initiate a Grapple THEN try to Restrain the target which means the Orc Barbarian has to succeed on two checks to restrain the target. That said as per the Grappler feat BOTH targets are restrained so they attack each other normally as they both have Adv and both have DisAdv.
A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed. The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition). The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
Note: BOTH targets are Restrained, which means both have DisAdv on Dex Saves... so I'd recommend using any kind of Dex Save attacks you can!
What are some good ways to explain to your players how grappling an enemy doesn't allow your allies advantage on their attacks against the grappled creature. My table has a hard time wrapping their heads around it, seeing as they're pretty much restrained, except in terms of the condition.
I tried explaining it like even though they're grappled and being held, they're still wiggling around swaying their upper body or hips trying to avoid their attacks, but they still feel like that's not enough.
What are some good ways to explain how grappling an enemy doesn't allow your enemies advantage on their attacks against the grappled creature. My table has a hard time wrapping their heads around it, seeing as they're pretty much restrained, except in terms of the condition.
I tried explaining it like even though they're grappled and being held, they're still wiggling around swaying their upper body or hips trying to avoid their attacks, but they still feel like that's not enough.
The problem is most people think of "grapple" they are thinking of using both hands and like it's the WWE. You aren't suplexing the enemy! The rule requires the attacker to have 1 free hand and it only reduces the defender's speed to 0. The attack can drag the defender, but it's difficult terrain. Keep in mind it's *drag* so unless the attack also has *fly* you can drag them off a cliff, that requires the Shove attack action.
All that is required is that the attacker has one free hand and is holding onto the defender. This means the Defender it's immobilize (lacks defense) they are immobile (lack of movement). The attack has their shoulder, wrist, tentacle, horn, shield rim.... something.
This is closer to Close Range Combat. Which is sometimes trained by the opponents hold hands and then spar. If you let go you lose.
Your arms are being grabbed, you're going to have a hard time swinging a sword. In the case of spells I would flavor it as more difficult to cast while grappled moreso than hard to touch
Your arms are being grabbed, you're going to have a hard time swinging a sword. In the case of spells I would flavor it as more difficult to cast while grappled moreso than hard to touch
That's the thing the rules don't make any specifics on what is being grappled. So it's not going to make an arbitration.
If the grappler wants the defender to not be able to swing their weapon I'd either just say "nope" or roll with DisAdvantage because the are trying to do something special.
Keep in mind a halfing can grapple an orc or a human can grapple an ogre, but not a giant.
I keep seeing the term "RAW" being used, what does it mean around here?
As for the scene I described above, I like to think about different scenarios in my head. The above is a more adversal version, something more likely happen in a game. So another version, this time they are on the same side, I thought up goes as follows. The Elf gets assigned work the the Orc. The Elf is rather anti-social and slightly germaphobic; while the Orc is very social and very expressive in his emotions. The orc goes to shake her hand but she refuses. The orc refuses to budge until she shakes his hand. Sighing she relents and intends to joy buzzer him with Shocking Grasp, as she already does't like him and thinks he's annoying.
RAW is what the source material says go, no matter what. It cannot do any more or any less than the text that explains the ruling.
RAI is how the source material should work more logically I suppose. You can trim some of it for better keeping with realism.
I also find that some problem players to use RAW as a means to get their way with the DM. While the DM may want to keep the game realistic, the player points out RAW "This is what it says in the PHB, so this is how it should happen." I'm drawing a blank on examples though.
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep.
Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.
That all said, if you’re the DM and you decide to let Trance shorten an elf’s long rest, you’re not going to break the game. You are making a world-building choice if you do so. You’re deciding that elves, on a global scale, are ready to reenter a fight before anyone else, that they heal faster than most humanoids, and that they regain their magical energy faster. Such a choice would make sense in a world where elves are the dominant race, where they not only live longer than others, but also recover faster
Sorry to be "that guy", but RAI stands for "Rules as Intended". It's the same idea, but the principle is interpreting the intention rather than the letter of the rule. If we're being "rules lawyers", both RAW and RAI are interpretations of the rules.
One concept that people new to D&D find hard to understand is that the rules are an abstraction. Like that model of electrons circling the nucleus of an atom. Atoms don’t actually look that way.
The rules allow you to model how attacks, magic, strength, skills, health etc work. They try to follow the same logic as the physical world as much as possible to make things relatable to the players - but they don’t mirror the rules of the physical world. HP are not actual physical damage taken, grappling is only preventing something from moving and a thrown dagger will be accurate up to 30 feet but suddenly at 31 feet it will less accurate. Light drops in intensity at specific distances rather than decrease gradually. I could go on and on. Don’t get too hung up on trying to force the game rules to match the physics of the real world. It just can’t be done.
D&D is a game. A way to simplify an imaginary world into a set of rules that can easily be played with a few dice and a few hundred pages of rules. The important thing about the rules is not that they mirror the real world accurately, but rather that they are consistent and balanced and simple enough to be enjoyable to use.
That's not a great example, as the rules for long rest changed and the RAW and RAI now match - the Elf only needs to spend 4 hours to take a Long Rest.
As for the scene I described above, I like to think about different scenarios in my head. The above is a more adversal version, something more likely happen in a game. So another version, this time they are on the same side, I thought up goes as follows. The Elf gets assigned work the the Orc. The Elf is rather anti-social and slightly germaphobic; while the Orc is very social and very expressive in his emotions. The orc goes to shake her hand but she refuses. The orc refuses to budge until she shakes his hand. Sighing she relents and intends to joy buzzer him with Shocking Grasp, as she already does't like him and thinks he's annoying.
Bear in mind that Shocking Grasp, like all (most?) other spells, doesn't just manifest its effects just because the caster wants it. There is a casting process involved, one which is obvious. In your example, the Orc would see the Elf casting Shocking Grasp, and would avoid getting hit with it (or not? What are the rules for letting someone hit you on purpose?). I suppose if it were a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell (cast spell w/o somatic or verbal components), given that Shocking Grasp has no material components, I guess the Elf could hide the casting, but you still can't hide the effects (lightning springing from your hand, etc.), so a generous DM might give the attack Advantage, but nothing in the rules supports that.
What are some good ways to explain to your players
Grappling is not an arm lock or a neck hold or anything like that. It just means you have a hold of a handful of their clothing or a strap of their armour or something. They can't move away from you but they can still swing their arms around and attempt to hit you or cast a spell.
Lets say an Orc Barbarian goes for a grapple on an Elf Sorceress and succeeds on the strength roll vs the elf and now is holding onto her with intention of restraining her. On the elf's turn, instead of doing a strength or dex check, could she use a touch spell, such as Shocking Grasp to force the break. If were to try Shocking Grasp on the orc, would that be considered an auto hit, as one can argue since he is holding onto her, there would be enough body to body contact as trying to hold on as tight as possible not wanting to let her go? If not an auto hit, then with advantage?
Back to original point of original poster.
RAW no, the Elf doesn't get an auto hit.
Rule of Cool. If the Elf is NOT trying to deal damage, but wants to use Shocking Grasp as a non-damaging joybuzzer to be a jerk? As a GM? Sure. I'd probably have it an opposed Sleight of Hand vs the higher of Perception/Insight.
To me the main point is the Elf isn't trying to deal damage, just be a jerk and using a spell for an offbrand usage. As long as that being a jerk is all in good fun and progresses the story instead of being detrimental.
I think if you are trying to go explicitly by the rules, it wouldn't be an autohit, reasoning for this has largely been covered by others above.
I would see it fair to call it as an auto hit though. If you are grappling with someone, chances are at some point within a 6 second period they would likely put their hands. I'd base this on wrestling, where unless you are actually pinned you are probably going to touch the other person, no problem.
Depends on how the DM wants to call it, and what kind of game the players want to be in, I suppose.
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Just wondering how one would rule the following.
Lets say an Orc Barbarian goes for a grapple on an Elf Sorceress and succeeds on the strength roll vs the elf and now is holding onto her with intention of restraining her. On the elf's turn, instead of doing a strength or dex check, could she use a touch spell, such as Shocking Grasp to force the break. If were to try Shocking Grasp on the orc, would that be considered an auto hit, as one can argue since he is holding onto her, there would be enough body to body contact as trying to hold on as tight as possible not wanting to let her go? If not an auto hit, then with advantage?
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D&D Beyond FoundersThe rules for restrained state:
This means that the Elf Sorceress has disadvantage on the attack roll with the touch spell - this can be reasoned a number of ways, but ultimately it's because they have been grappled and are not in control of the situation.
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By RAW being in a grapple doesn't grant any kind of autohits.
Think of it as you still need to land a decisive hit, not just touch.
Shocking Grasp will not help the Elf escape the Grapple as it doesn't make them autofail a Strength tests, it makes them unable to take Reactions. The Elf's speed is still 0.
Stormknight, already posted the Restrained rules. You mentioned the Orc Barbarian has the intention to restrain, so I'll assume the Orc Barbarian has the Grappler feat, because unless it has a special NPC rule it can't actually Restrain a target.
For this to work the Orc Barbarian has to first initiate a Grapple THEN try to Restrain the target which means the Orc Barbarian has to succeed on two checks to restrain the target. That said as per the Grappler feat BOTH targets are restrained so they attack each other normally as they both have Adv and both have DisAdv.
Note: BOTH targets are Restrained, which means both have DisAdv on Dex Saves... so I'd recommend using any kind of Dex Save attacks you can!
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D&D Beyond FoundersYup, sorry - I should have covered the differences between Grappled and Restrained. Thank you FullMetalBunny. :)
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
What are some good ways to explain to your players how grappling an enemy doesn't allow your allies advantage on their attacks against the grappled creature. My table has a hard time wrapping their heads around it, seeing as they're pretty much restrained, except in terms of the condition.
I tried explaining it like even though they're grappled and being held, they're still wiggling around swaying their upper body or hips trying to avoid their attacks, but they still feel like that's not enough.
Published Subclasses
The problem is most people think of "grapple" they are thinking of using both hands and like it's the WWE. You aren't suplexing the enemy!
The rule requires the attacker to have 1 free hand and it only reduces the defender's speed to 0. The attack can drag the defender, but it's difficult terrain. Keep in mind it's *drag* so unless the attack also has *fly* you can drag them off a cliff, that requires the Shove attack action.
All that is required is that the attacker has one free hand and is holding onto the defender. This means the Defender it's immobilize (lacks defense) they are immobile (lack of movement). The attack has their shoulder, wrist, tentacle, horn, shield rim.... something.
This is closer to Close Range Combat. Which is sometimes trained by the opponents hold hands and then spar. If you let go you lose.
Your arms are being grabbed, you're going to have a hard time swinging a sword. In the case of spells I would flavor it as more difficult to cast while grappled moreso than hard to touch
That's the thing the rules don't make any specifics on what is being grappled. So it's not going to make an arbitration.
If the grappler wants the defender to not be able to swing their weapon I'd either just say "nope" or roll with DisAdvantage because the are trying to do something special.
Keep in mind a halfing can grapple an orc or a human can grapple an ogre, but not a giant.
I keep seeing the term "RAW" being used, what does it mean around here?
As for the scene I described above, I like to think about different scenarios in my head. The above is a more adversal version, something more likely happen in a game. So another version, this time they are on the same side, I thought up goes as follows. The Elf gets assigned work the the Orc. The Elf is rather anti-social and slightly germaphobic; while the Orc is very social and very expressive in his emotions. The orc goes to shake her hand but she refuses. The orc refuses to budge until she shakes his hand. Sighing she relents and intends to joy buzzer him with Shocking Grasp, as she already does't like him and thinks he's annoying.
RAW means Rules As Written.
RAW=Rules As Written
RAI=Rules As Intended†
† Edited as per ratwhowouldbeking
Further explained:
RAW is what the source material says go, no matter what. It cannot do any more or any less than the text that explains the ruling.
RAI is how the source material should work more logically I suppose. You can trim some of it for better keeping with realism.
I also find that some problem players to use RAW as a means to get their way with the DM. While the DM may want to keep the game realistic, the player points out RAW "This is what it says in the PHB, so this is how it should happen." I'm drawing a blank on examples though.
Published Subclasses
Found an example from Sage Advice:
Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
The intent is no. The Trance trait does let an elf meditate for 4 hours and then feel the way a human does after sleeping for 8 hours, but that isn’t intended to shorten an elf’s long rest. A long rest is a period of relaxation that is at least 8 hours long. It can contain sleep, reading, talking, eating, and other restful activity. Standing watch is even possible during it, but for no more than 2 hours; maintaining heightened vigilance any longer than that isn’t restful. In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep.
Here’s what this all means for an elf. An elf can spend 4 hours in a trance during a long rest and then has 4 additional hours of light activity. While an elf’s companions are snoozing, the elf can be awake and engaged in a variety of activities, including carving a lovely trinket, composing a sonnet, reading a tome of ancient lore, attempting to remember something experienced centuries before, and keeping an eye out for danger. The Trance trait is, ultimately, meant to highlight the otherworldly character of elves, not to give them an edge in the game.
That all said, if you’re the DM and you decide to let Trance shorten an elf’s long rest, you’re not going to break the game. You are making a world-building choice if you do so. You’re deciding that elves, on a global scale, are ready to reenter a fight before anyone else, that they heal faster than most humanoids, and that they regain their magical energy faster. Such a choice would make sense in a world where elves are the dominant race, where they not only live longer than others, but also recover faster
Source: http://dnd.wizards.com/sage-advice-compendium
Published Subclasses
Sorry to be "that guy", but RAI stands for "Rules as Intended". It's the same idea, but the principle is interpreting the intention rather than the letter of the rule. If we're being "rules lawyers", both RAW and RAI are interpretations of the rules.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
One concept that people new to D&D find hard to understand is that the rules are an abstraction. Like that model of electrons circling the nucleus of an atom. Atoms don’t actually look that way.
The rules allow you to model how attacks, magic, strength, skills, health etc work. They try to follow the same logic as the physical world as much as possible to make things relatable to the players - but they don’t mirror the rules of the physical world. HP are not actual physical damage taken, grappling is only preventing something from moving and a thrown dagger will be accurate up to 30 feet but suddenly at 31 feet it will less accurate. Light drops in intensity at specific distances rather than decrease gradually. I could go on and on. Don’t get too hung up on trying to force the game rules to match the physics of the real world. It just can’t be done.
D&D is a game. A way to simplify an imaginary world into a set of rules that can easily be played with a few dice and a few hundred pages of rules. The important thing about the rules is not that they mirror the real world accurately, but rather that they are consistent and balanced and simple enough to be enjoyable to use.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThat's not a great example, as the rules for long rest changed and the RAW and RAI now match - the Elf only needs to spend 4 hours to take a Long Rest.
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If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Bear in mind that Shocking Grasp, like all (most?) other spells, doesn't just manifest its effects just because the caster wants it. There is a casting process involved, one which is obvious. In your example, the Orc would see the Elf casting Shocking Grasp, and would avoid getting hit with it (or not? What are the rules for letting someone hit you on purpose?). I suppose if it were a Sorcerer using Subtle Spell (cast spell w/o somatic or verbal components), given that Shocking Grasp has no material components, I guess the Elf could hide the casting, but you still can't hide the effects (lightning springing from your hand, etc.), so a generous DM might give the attack Advantage, but nothing in the rules supports that.
Grappling is not an arm lock or a neck hold or anything like that. It just means you have a hold of a handful of their clothing or a strap of their armour or something. They can't move away from you but they can still swing their arms around and attempt to hit you or cast a spell.
Back to original point of original poster.
RAW no, the Elf doesn't get an auto hit.
Rule of Cool. If the Elf is NOT trying to deal damage, but wants to use Shocking Grasp as a non-damaging joybuzzer to be a jerk?
As a GM? Sure. I'd probably have it an opposed Sleight of Hand vs the higher of Perception/Insight.
To me the main point is the Elf isn't trying to deal damage, just be a jerk and using a spell for an offbrand usage. As long as that being a jerk is all in good fun and progresses the story instead of being detrimental.
I think if you are trying to go explicitly by the rules, it wouldn't be an autohit, reasoning for this has largely been covered by others above.
I would see it fair to call it as an auto hit though. If you are grappling with someone, chances are at some point within a 6 second period they would likely put their hands. I'd base this on wrestling, where unless you are actually pinned you are probably going to touch the other person, no problem.
Depends on how the DM wants to call it, and what kind of game the players want to be in, I suppose.