I have a curiosity; a while back, my party got annoyed at an usher in an acting room and the monk punched him, got a critical hit, and rolled 3x his max hp for 12 damage.
He then wanted to make it non-lethal. I ruled that he was dead, as he was instantly killed, and knocking someone out can result in death if you're too strong after all.
We rolled with it and it's all good, made a good plot point for development, but I'm now pondering which one wins - Instant Death or Non-Lethal?
I would think "non-lethal" would win out. Consider it like this, you are punishing the player for rolling a 20 since the consequences of killing the NPC most likely outweighs the objective of the player character. Rolling a 20 should equate to precision in the execution. What I will say is, for the player to avoid this level of damage, they must announce the attack is non-lethal prior to making the roll. If they didn't then I would say you are in the right to rule the monk landed too heavy of blow or failed to target a non-lethal area of the body.
I would think "non-lethal" would win out. Consider it like this, you are punishing the player for rolling a 20 since the consequences of killing the NPC most likely outweighs the objective of the player character. Rolling a 20 should equate to precision in the execution. What I will say is, for the player to avoid this level of damage, they must announce the attack is non-lethal prior to making the roll. If they didn't then I would say you are in the right to rule the monk landed too heavy of blow or failed to target a non-lethal area of the body.
RAW, non-lethal can be declared on the hit, and whilst I see your point on the critical hit thing, I have a level 5 character who could one-punch instant-death a commoner in one hit if he rolled a 4 to hit, so critical hit aside, it was still possible to double his hp in one hit!
I think I agree with how you ruled it, RAW. In the "Knocking a Creature Out" section, nothing really says that you don't do your full damage if you decide to knock them out instead of kill them. The damage would still double their hp max, and they would still die.
That being said, I really feel like most characters, especially Monks, would be able to knock people out if they want to. I'd give the character their nonlethal wishes in this situation. I'd probably say the nat 20 would just mean the blow leaves a nasty scar.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Think from a game stand point if your trying to do non lethal and you call it it shouldn't kill someone. First thing I was taught in martial arts was to pull my punches and control. And there is a difference between punching to go through someone and punching to just stun. If im punching to hurt someone the point im looking to punch will be behind there body. While sparing and trying intentionally not kill someone im hitting hard enough so the person would feel it but not HURT.
As for RAW - they can choose to say its non lethal as only if its a melee attack. So the players were right with RAW.
Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconsciousand is stable.
To be clear, you said something like "The guy is dead. Like dead, dead" and then the player then said something like "I want it to be nonlethal." If that's the case, I would agree with you, the NPC is dead. They can't retroactively decide to pull their punch.
But if the player said nonlethal before you said the NPC died, I would have given that to the player. Like, they roll, see the crit, roll the damage and say 12 nonlethal before you say anything, then I would have let it be nonlethal.
Knocking a Creature Out says "sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow." so it's self-evident you can do one instead of the other.
Personally I'd stick with allowing the character to call a knock-out. You're both stepping on the toes of player agency a bit and potentially severely escalating the situation and derailing the current scene if it's required to be lethal when the player has the expectation that it won't be. It's true that in real life there's no such thing as safely knocking someone out, but it's a common action/adventure trope and explicitly an option players can take.
I agree that a non lethal hit is a "called" shot and must be declared before the role is made.
You decide to use the side of your blade before you swing and you decide to pull your punch before you make the punch.
That's explicitly not how it works, though. And really all that does is make everyone constantly announce nonlethal throughout combat when they want it, which from personal experience gets old fast.
You could have ignored the critical hit portion and just ruled it was base damage and thus only knocked him out. Any pulled punch shouldn't cause critical damage. Sadly something like this would end up with the PC's being wanted by the authorities for murder.
The alternate fighting rules for 5e are pretty sparse.
while if everyone was cool with it, i see no reason to do what you did in that instance
but if not, and also just generally speaking, the martials fighting arent just some ragtag soldiers or mercs, they are generally professionals in what they are doing, especially monks, id have to go with raw
if a player says nonlethal, it generally should be
So if the attack is made and is a hit, you declare Non-Leathle before or after the damage dice are rolled?
Deciding whether an attack is lethal or non-lethal occurs when the target is reduced to zero hit points by an attack.
"Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable."
The attacker makes the decision the instant the damage that reduced the creature to zero is dealt. So the decision about lethal vs non-lethal is made after the attack hits, the damage is rolled and the damage is sufficient to take the target to zero hit points.
The OP was asking about the following rule and which takes precedence.
"Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.:
The instant death requires that there be damage remaining when the target is reduced to 0 hit points. If the attacker decides that the damage that reduced the target to zero hit points was non-lethal then there is no damage remaining so instant death doesn't occur. In addition, the non-lethal damage rule explicitly states that the target is unconscious and stable, not dead. So it is also a case of a more specific rule over-riding the general massive damage rule.
I think the RAW has been pretty clearly stated here and several times - you can declare non-lethal after the damage dice have been rolled. I personally permit that declaration of intent up to the moment I describe the outcome. From roll to hit, to damage, to post-celebration for superb damage. As long as it comes before I describe head explosions, it is fine with me.
That's not really how nat 20's work, and as I've said you're stepping on the toes of player agency if you add a penalty to a nonlethal takedown like that.
I think the RAW has been pretty clearly stated here and several times - you can declare non-lethal after the damage dice have been rolled. I personally permit that declaration of intent up to the moment I describe the outcome. From roll to hit, to damage, to post-celebration for superb damage. As long as it comes before I describe head explosions, it is fine with me.
I agree with this. I do not agree that the damage dealing character knows if his hit WILL cause a death or a knock out. It should, for the fun and suspense, be a guess on his part. If the character is trying to knock the bad guy out with a non lethal blow he should be just as surprised as the guy getting hit. If he makes a bad guess he might only take the guy down to 1 hit point and its up to the next character or the next round to finish it.
The DM telling the player that the hit drops the bad guy down to less than 0 and then giving the player the choice of lethal or non lethal gives the player a HUGE advantage in the fight. He can put everything into every single attack and then decide if he wants the bad guy to live.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I have a curiosity; a while back, my party got annoyed at an usher in an acting room and the monk punched him, got a critical hit, and rolled 3x his max hp for 12 damage.
He then wanted to make it non-lethal. I ruled that he was dead, as he was instantly killed, and knocking someone out can result in death if you're too strong after all.
We rolled with it and it's all good, made a good plot point for development, but I'm now pondering which one wins - Instant Death or Non-Lethal?
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I don’t think the rules specify, and RAI might be that nonlethal takes precedence, but I’d have ruled that the same way you did.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I would think "non-lethal" would win out. Consider it like this, you are punishing the player for rolling a 20 since the consequences of killing the NPC most likely outweighs the objective of the player character. Rolling a 20 should equate to precision in the execution. What I will say is, for the player to avoid this level of damage, they must announce the attack is non-lethal prior to making the roll. If they didn't then I would say you are in the right to rule the monk landed too heavy of blow or failed to target a non-lethal area of the body.
RAW, non-lethal can be declared on the hit, and whilst I see your point on the critical hit thing, I have a level 5 character who could one-punch instant-death a commoner in one hit if he rolled a 4 to hit, so critical hit aside, it was still possible to double his hp in one hit!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I think I agree with how you ruled it, RAW. In the "Knocking a Creature Out" section, nothing really says that you don't do your full damage if you decide to knock them out instead of kill them. The damage would still double their hp max, and they would still die.
That being said, I really feel like most characters, especially Monks, would be able to knock people out if they want to. I'd give the character their nonlethal wishes in this situation. I'd probably say the nat 20 would just mean the blow leaves a nasty scar.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Think from a game stand point if your trying to do non lethal and you call it it shouldn't kill someone. First thing I was taught in martial arts was to pull my punches and control. And there is a difference between punching to go through someone and punching to just stun. If im punching to hurt someone the point im looking to punch will be behind there body. While sparing and trying intentionally not kill someone im hitting hard enough so the person would feel it but not HURT.
As for RAW - they can choose to say its non lethal as only if its a melee attack. So the players were right with RAW.
Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.
To be clear, you said something like "The guy is dead. Like dead, dead" and then the player then said something like "I want it to be nonlethal." If that's the case, I would agree with you, the NPC is dead. They can't retroactively decide to pull their punch.
But if the player said nonlethal before you said the NPC died, I would have given that to the player. Like, they roll, see the crit, roll the damage and say 12 nonlethal before you say anything, then I would have let it be nonlethal.
Knocking a Creature Out says "sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow." so it's self-evident you can do one instead of the other.
Personally I'd stick with allowing the character to call a knock-out. You're both stepping on the toes of player agency a bit and potentially severely escalating the situation and derailing the current scene if it's required to be lethal when the player has the expectation that it won't be. It's true that in real life there's no such thing as safely knocking someone out, but it's a common action/adventure trope and explicitly an option players can take.
I agree that a non lethal hit is a "called" shot and must be declared before the role is made.
You decide to use the side of your blade before you swing and you decide to pull your punch before you make the punch.
That's explicitly not the rule. You make the decision when the damage is dealt.
That's explicitly not how it works, though. And really all that does is make everyone constantly announce nonlethal throughout combat when they want it, which from personal experience gets old fast.
Then the DM made the wrong call in this case.
You could have ignored the critical hit portion and just ruled it was base damage and thus only knocked him out. Any pulled punch shouldn't cause critical damage.
Sadly something like this would end up with the PC's being wanted by the authorities for murder.
The alternate fighting rules for 5e are pretty sparse.
while if everyone was cool with it, i see no reason to do what you did in that instance
but if not, and also just generally speaking, the martials fighting arent just some ragtag soldiers or mercs, they are generally professionals in what they are doing, especially monks, id have to go with raw
if a player says nonlethal, it generally should be
So if the attack is made and is a hit, you declare Non-Leathle before or after the damage dice are rolled?
After since the attacker Knock the Creature Out the instant the damage is dealt, which means it's rolled already
Deciding whether an attack is lethal or non-lethal occurs when the target is reduced to zero hit points by an attack.
"Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable."
The attacker makes the decision the instant the damage that reduced the creature to zero is dealt. So the decision about lethal vs non-lethal is made after the attack hits, the damage is rolled and the damage is sufficient to take the target to zero hit points.
The OP was asking about the following rule and which takes precedence.
"Instant Death
Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum.:
The instant death requires that there be damage remaining when the target is reduced to 0 hit points. If the attacker decides that the damage that reduced the target to zero hit points was non-lethal then there is no damage remaining so instant death doesn't occur. In addition, the non-lethal damage rule explicitly states that the target is unconscious and stable, not dead. So it is also a case of a more specific rule over-riding the general massive damage rule.
I think the RAW has been pretty clearly stated here and several times - you can declare non-lethal after the damage dice have been rolled. I personally permit that declaration of intent up to the moment I describe the outcome. From roll to hit, to damage, to post-celebration for superb damage. As long as it comes before I describe head explosions, it is fine with me.
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
EXTENDED SIGNATURE!
Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
Check out my life-changing
That's not really how nat 20's work, and as I've said you're stepping on the toes of player agency if you add a penalty to a nonlethal takedown like that.
I agree with this.
I do not agree that the damage dealing character knows if his hit WILL cause a death or a knock out. It should, for the fun and suspense, be a guess on his part.
If the character is trying to knock the bad guy out with a non lethal blow he should be just as surprised as the guy getting hit. If he makes a bad guess he might only take the guy down to 1 hit point and its up to the next character or the next round to finish it.
The DM telling the player that the hit drops the bad guy down to less than 0 and then giving the player the choice of lethal or non lethal gives the player a HUGE advantage in the fight. He can put everything into every single attack and then decide if he wants the bad guy to live.