You don't have the proficiency so I can't see choosing it for Expertise being possible but you get to add your proficiency bonus so Reliable Talent should work just fine.
Here are the things I'm looking at mechanics wise and comparing wording:
Jack of All Trades: Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus. (This does apply to initiative.)
Expertise: At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies. (Initiative is an ability check. Maybe it's poor wording since this is from the PHB?)
Reliable talent: By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. (This would work since initiative is a DEX ability check?)
All skill checks are ability checks, but not vice versa. A dex check is only a dex check, but a dex (acrobatics) check is also a dex check.
By the way, i think i fixed the link above. I must have pasted the text i quoted into the link box rather than the link. You can also double check the using ability scores chapter to see the difference between ability and skill checks. Note that skill checks mention being proficient in them, but ability checks do not.
the reliable talent works RAW but I’m not sure they would intentionally let that work. There was a big issue a few years ago where there was questioning on if reliable talent works with jack of all trades and it was shut down even though the wording still supports it to this day.
all they had to do was errata jack of all trades a bit from
”Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus.”
to
”Starting at 2nd level, you gain a bonus equal to half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus.”
All skill checks are ability checks, but not vice versa. A dex check is only a dex check, but a dex (acrobatics) check is also a dex check.
By the way, i think i fixed the link above. I must have pasted the text i quoted into the link box rather than the link. You can also double check the using ability scores chapter to see the difference between ability and skill checks. Note that skill checks mention being proficient in them, but ability checks do not.
Right. An event involving acrobatics is a dexterity (acrobatics) check. But that isn’t how people use the terms when talking about them, even in the rules forum. “Skill check” is commonly used to refer to an ability check that uses a skill.
Reliable Talent and Jack of All Trade can't stack on Initiative as one works when a check that adds your proficiency bonus and the other let's you add only half of it when the check doesn't.
Jack of all trades was just a reference as that and remarkable talent were the only ways to have proficiency affect initiative. I'm purely looking at the rogue abilities since you add your full proficiency to initiative with this race
Expertise: At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools.
Ability checks/initiative checks are not on this list, so no expertise.
Reliable talent: By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. (This would work since initiative is a DEX ability check?)
Reliable Talent and Jack of All Trade can't stack on Initiative as one works when a check that adds your proficiency bonus and the other let's you add only half of it when the check doesn't.
@tazyMatt how would Reliable Talent work with a Rogue/Bard and their Jack of All Trades?
@JeremyECrawford If you multiclass, you can benefit from both Reliable Talent and Jack of All Trades, but they don't apply to the same ability check.
I’m aware of the Twitter response and the excuse given. My point for jack of all trades and reliable talent comparison is that the reason given has nothing to do with the way the two features work together.
The wording of Reliable talent doesn’t differentiate between having proficiency or being able to add your proficiency to a check somehow without proficiency.
The wording of jack of all trades gives you the ability to add your proficiency bonus rounded down to any check you make that you don’t already have proficiency in. Halving or doubling your proficiency bonus is still adding your proficiency bonus.
PROFICIENCY BONUS Characters have a proficiency bonus determined by level, as detailed in chapter 1. Monsters also have this bonus, which is incorporated in their stat blocks. The bonus is used in the rules on ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls. Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. For example, if two different rules say you can add your proficiency bonus to a Wisdom saving throw, you nevertheless add the bonus only once when you make the save. Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. For example, the rogue's Expertise feature doubles the proficiency bonus for certain ability checks. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once. By the same token, if a feature or effect allows you to multiply your proficiency bonus when making an ability check that wouldn't normally benefit from your proficiency bonus, you still don't add the bonus to the check. For that check your proficiency bonus is 0, given the fact that multiplying 0 by any number is still 0. For instance, if you lack proficiency in the H istory skill, you gain no benefit from a feature that lets you double your proficiency bonus when you make Intelligence (History) checks. In general, you don't multiply your proficiency bonus for attack rolls or saving throws. If a feature or effect allows you to do so, these same rules apply.
Crawfords Twitter ruling doesn’t negate the fact that jack of all trades is adding proficiency bonus, hence my earlier post and example of how the errata SHOULD have been made to match the intent.
There's also a Sage Advice Compendium ruling on it; Their take seems that Jack of All trade doesn't count as a check that let's you add your proficiency bonus, that's why you can add half of it. But then finish by saying it adds it so it's quite confusing, they must only consider timing of addition i guess. Your proposed Errata would certainly fix this.
Can the rogue’s Reliable Talent feature be used in conjunction with Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades? No. Each of these features has a precondition for its use; Reliable Talent activates when you make an ability check that uses your proficiency bonus, whereas the other two features activate when you make an ability check that doesn’t use your proficiency bonus. In other words, a check that qualifies for Reliable Talent doesn’t qualify for Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades. And Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades don’t work with each other, since you can add your proficiency bonus, or any portion thereof, only once to a roll.
There's also a Sage Advice Compendium ruling on it; Their take seems that Jack of All trade doesn't count as a check that let's you add your proficiency bonus, that's why you can add half of it. But then finish by saying it adds it so it's quite confusing, they must only consider timing of addition i guess. Your proposed Errata would certainly fix this.
Can the rogue’s Reliable Talent feature be used in conjunction with Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades? No. Each of these features has a precondition for its use; Reliable Talent activates when you make an ability check that uses your proficiency bonus, whereas the other two features activate when you make an ability check that doesn’t use your proficiency bonus. In other words, a check that qualifies for Reliable Talent doesn’t qualify for Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades. And Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades don’t work with each other, since you can add your proficiency bonus, or any portion thereof, only once to a roll.
The sage advice and the ruling are based on the intent which completely circumvents the actual wording of jack of all trades.
it’s activation of being applicable when making a check that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus doesn’t change the fact that your adding your proficiency bonus when using the feature.
There's also a Sage Advice Compendium ruling on it; Their take seems that Jack of All trade doesn't count as a check that let's you add your proficiency bonus, that's why you can add half of it. But then finish by saying it adds it so it's quite confusing, they must only consider timing of addition i guess. Your proposed Errata would certainly fix this.
Can the rogue’s Reliable Talent feature be used in conjunction with Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades? No. Each of these features has a precondition for its use; Reliable Talent activates when you make an ability check that uses your proficiency bonus, whereas the other two features activate when you make an ability check that doesn’t use your proficiency bonus. In other words, a check that qualifies for Reliable Talent doesn’t qualify for Remarkable Athlete or Jack of All Trades. And Remarkable Athlete and Jack of All Trades don’t work with each other, since you can add your proficiency bonus, or any portion thereof, only once to a roll.
The sage advice and the ruling are based on the intent which completely circumvents the actual wording of jack of all trades.
it’s activation of being applicable when making a check that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus doesn’t change the fact that your adding your proficiency bonus when using the feature.
Timing is everything.... when are you adding it?
I believe what the Devs are making such ruling basically because Reliable Talent works on a check having proficiency bonus and Jack of All Trade on a check that doesn't. Adding half your proficiency bonus to the check in this fashion doesn't suffice for Reliable Talent. It must already include it.
The ability check you make must let you add your proficiency bonus on it's own already, without the intervention of other feature that require a check that doesn't itself. At least that's how i understand it RAW.
Hare-Trigger is a simple but effective trait. Each time you roll for initiative, you add your proficiency bonus to that roll."
Reliable talent says
"By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10."
As a result, a Harengon rogue CAN apply reliable talent to their initiative rolls because they specifically get to add their proficiency to the roll.
However, expertise is only allowed for "skill proficiencies" and initiative is NOT a skill proficiency so a character can not apply expertise to initiative rolls.
---
Finally, on the topic of Jack of All Trades. There are two equally good reasons why it doesn't work with Reliable Talent and both are RAW.
"Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus."
1) Jack of All Trades allows a character to add half their proficiency rounded down to ability checks where they are not proficient. Half of the proficiency is NOT the same as adding a character's proficiency. Clearly the values are NOT the same and reliable talent requires the addition of the proficiency bonus (not 1/2 of it) in order to be active.
2) Reliable Talent applies to checks where you add your proficiency bonus. Jack of all Trades only applies to rolls which do NOT include your proficiency bonus. As a result, Reliable Talent can't possibly apply to the same situation as Jack of All Trades since one applies when the full proficiency bonus is applied and the other does not.
Finally, Jack of All Trades can not be used to boost a Harengon initiative even farther since it only applies to rolls which do not already include the proficiency bonus.
----
TL;DR: Harengon rogue can use reliable talent with initiative rolls since they add their proficiency. Expertise does not apply since it is not a skill. The situation is NOT the same as Jack of All Trades.
If initiative is considered a skill check, then Haregon rogues could get expertise in initiative as well as use reliable talent with it?
No expertise, initiative is not a skill. It is a straight dexterity check.
You don't have the proficiency so I can't see choosing it for Expertise being possible but you get to add your proficiency bonus so Reliable Talent should work just fine.
For more reading on the subject, see this. Note the sentence:
Edit fixed the link
Unfortunately that link doesn't work.
Here are the things I'm looking at mechanics wise and comparing wording:
Jack of All Trades: Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus. (This does apply to initiative.)
Expertise: At 1st level, choose two of your skill proficiencies, or one of your skill proficiencies and your proficiency with thieves’ tools. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of the chosen proficiencies. (Initiative is an ability check. Maybe it's poor wording since this is from the PHB?)
Reliable talent: By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10. (This would work since initiative is a DEX ability check?)
Reliable Talent will work (it's an ability check), but there's no way for you to get Expertise on it.
All skill checks are ability checks, but not vice versa. A dex check is only a dex check, but a dex (acrobatics) check is also a dex check.
By the way, i think i fixed the link above. I must have pasted the text i quoted into the link box rather than the link. You can also double check the using ability scores chapter to see the difference between ability and skill checks. Note that skill checks mention being proficient in them, but ability checks do not.
the reliable talent works RAW but I’m not sure they would intentionally let that work. There was a big issue a few years ago where there was questioning on if reliable talent works with jack of all trades and it was shut down even though the wording still supports it to this day.
all they had to do was errata jack of all trades a bit from
”Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus.”
to
”Starting at 2nd level, you gain a bonus equal to half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus.”
All uses of a skill require an ability check.
There is no such thing as a skill check. :-)
Right. An event involving acrobatics is a dexterity (acrobatics) check. But that isn’t how people use the terms when talking about them, even in the rules forum. “Skill check” is commonly used to refer to an ability check that uses a skill.
Reliable Talent and Jack of All Trade can't stack on Initiative as one works when a check that adds your proficiency bonus and the other let's you add only half of it when the check doesn't.
It was also confirm by a Dev on Twitter https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/895045493528469504?s=20
Jack of all trades was just a reference as that and remarkable talent were the only ways to have proficiency affect initiative. I'm purely looking at the rogue abilities since you add your full proficiency to initiative with this race
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I’m aware of the Twitter response and the excuse given. My point for jack of all trades and reliable talent comparison is that the reason given has nothing to do with the way the two features work together.
The wording of Reliable talent doesn’t differentiate between having proficiency or being able to add your proficiency to a check somehow without proficiency.
The wording of jack of all trades gives you the ability to add your proficiency bonus rounded down to any check you make that you don’t already have proficiency in. Halving or doubling your proficiency bonus is still adding your proficiency bonus.
PROFICIENCY BONUS
Characters have a proficiency bonus determined by level, as detailed in chapter 1. Monsters also have this bonus, which is incorporated in their stat blocks. The bonus is used in the rules on ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls.
Your proficiency bonus can't be added to a single die roll or other number more than once. For example, if two different rules say you can add your proficiency bonus to a Wisdom saving throw, you nevertheless add the bonus only once when you make the save.
Occasionally, your proficiency bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before you apply it. For example, the rogue's Expertise feature doubles the proficiency bonus for certain ability checks. If a circumstance suggests that your proficiency bonus applies more than once to the same roll, you still add it only once and multiply or divide it only once.
By the same token, if a feature or effect allows you to multiply your proficiency bonus when making an ability check that wouldn't normally benefit from your proficiency bonus, you still don't add the bonus to the check. For that check your proficiency bonus is 0, given the fact that multiplying 0 by any number is still 0. For instance, if you lack proficiency in the H istory skill, you gain no benefit from a feature that lets you double your proficiency bonus when you make Intelligence (History) checks.
In general, you don't multiply your proficiency bonus for attack rolls or saving throws. If a feature or effect allows you to do so, these same rules apply.
Crawfords Twitter ruling doesn’t negate the fact that jack of all trades is adding proficiency bonus, hence my earlier post and example of how the errata SHOULD have been made to match the intent.
There's also a Sage Advice Compendium ruling on it; Their take seems that Jack of All trade doesn't count as a check that let's you add your proficiency bonus, that's why you can add half of it. But then finish by saying it adds it so it's quite confusing, they must only consider timing of addition i guess. Your proposed Errata would certainly fix this.
The sage advice and the ruling are based on the intent which completely circumvents the actual wording of jack of all trades.
it’s activation of being applicable when making a check that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus doesn’t change the fact that your adding your proficiency bonus when using the feature.
Timing is everything.... when are you adding it?
I believe what the Devs are making such ruling basically because Reliable Talent works on a check having proficiency bonus and Jack of All Trade on a check that doesn't. Adding half your proficiency bonus to the check in this fashion doesn't suffice for Reliable Talent. It must already include it.
The ability check you make must let you add your proficiency bonus on it's own already, without the intervention of other feature that require a check that doesn't itself. At least that's how i understand it RAW.
The Harengon have the ability:
"Hare-Trigger
Hare-Trigger is a simple but effective trait. Each time you roll for initiative, you add your proficiency bonus to that roll."
Reliable talent says
"By 11th level, you have refined your chosen skills until they approach perfection. Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10."
As a result, a Harengon rogue CAN apply reliable talent to their initiative rolls because they specifically get to add their proficiency to the roll.
However, expertise is only allowed for "skill proficiencies" and initiative is NOT a skill proficiency so a character can not apply expertise to initiative rolls.
---
Finally, on the topic of Jack of All Trades. There are two equally good reasons why it doesn't work with Reliable Talent and both are RAW.
"Starting at 2nd level, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any ability check you make that doesn't already include your proficiency bonus."
1) Jack of All Trades allows a character to add half their proficiency rounded down to ability checks where they are not proficient. Half of the proficiency is NOT the same as adding a character's proficiency. Clearly the values are NOT the same and reliable talent requires the addition of the proficiency bonus (not 1/2 of it) in order to be active.
2) Reliable Talent applies to checks where you add your proficiency bonus. Jack of all Trades only applies to rolls which do NOT include your proficiency bonus. As a result, Reliable Talent can't possibly apply to the same situation as Jack of All Trades since one applies when the full proficiency bonus is applied and the other does not.
Finally, Jack of All Trades can not be used to boost a Harengon initiative even farther since it only applies to rolls which do not already include the proficiency bonus.
----
TL;DR: Harengon rogue can use reliable talent with initiative rolls since they add their proficiency. Expertise does not apply since it is not a skill. The situation is NOT the same as Jack of All Trades.
Applying half your proficiency bonus still count as applying your proficiency bonus though, otherwise you would be able to stack them.