If a spellcaster rolls a natural 20 on a spell attack, is that double damage just like a normal attack? Can you please point me to the rules that say one way or the other?
The reason I ask is because DMing a game a couple weeks ago (I'm new at this) a 2nd level cleric rolled a 20 to hit with a Guiding Bolt spell. I ruled that it seemed like he could roll double damage based on the wording of attack rolls, and he went on to roll an really exceptional 43 points of damage, putting a rather quick end to what I expected to be a challenging and dramatic boss fight. Yeah, his dice were on fire and I wouldn't expect this regularly, but it seemed really over the top, even given its improbability.
Any spell using an attack roll that is a 20 is a critical hit and results in doubled damage dice ... melee, ranged, and some spells may all use attack rolls. Rules citations are below.
PHB 193-194
MAKING AN ATTACK Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll.
ATTACK ROLLS
When you make an attack, your attack roll determines whether the attack hits or misses. To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers.
ROLLING I OR 20 Sometimes fate blesses or curses a combatant, causing the novice to hit and the veteran to miss. If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit, as explained later in this chapter.
CRITICAL HITS When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. ... If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
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Keep in mind that the last sentence of the critical hits section means that rogue sneak attack dice, paladin or warlock smite damage and other kinds of damage die rolls are also rolled twice on a crit. A fifth level rogue for example might crit for 2d8 + 6d6 if they crit with a long bow or rapier. Static damage additions like strength/dex bonus are not doubled. The crit guiding bolt is cool doing 8d6 but it won't be that common.
yeah, 43 from 8d6 is more just luck of the dice there. that's a lot of 5s and 6s. the improbability is not that he crit, but that the damage roll was so ridiculous.
Thanks for the rapid responses! Yeah, it was crazy to see a natural 20 followed up by all those 5s and 6s... In fact, it might have been all 5s and 6s. My heart sank as that was a quick end to a long planned fight, but I couldn't take it away from the players who were thrilled.
Would you reverse the effect, for targets making saving throws, and rolling a Nat 1? Our DM has been ruling that a Nat 1 on a spell save causes maximum damage/effect.
Would you reverse the effect, for targets making saving throws, and rolling a Nat 1? Our DM has been ruling that a Nat 1 on a spell save causes maximum damage/effect.
RAW, no. What your DM does seems incredibly deadly. Not only since you normally don't autofail saves on a 1 which means that everyone's saving throws are incredibly nerfed and certain class abilites (Monks' Diamond Soul and Paladins' Aura of Protection) even more so. Add to the fact that most spells that require a saving throw (like fireball) doesn't use attack rolls which means that you can't get a critical hit with them. On top of that, maximum damage is almost certain to be as high or, depending on the roll, higher than doubling the dice from a critical hit.
Spells that use a attack roll are intentionally balanced around being able to crit. Spells requiring saves can generally effect a group of enemies rather than one, and also sometimes allow people to take half damage on a save (evasion is not taken into account here). You can also target specific saves if you get enough saving throw spells. Probably more things that I'm missing here.
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if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Don't change any of your approach to D&D based on this encounter. The probability of rolling a crit is 5%. The probability of rolling a 45 or better with 8d6 is 0.076% based on my calcs. The probability of doing both of these together is 0.00381%.
However, if there are any +1s or +2s hidden in your numbers then the probabilities can get much higher quickly.
I'm assuming your damage roll was going to be 4d6 but you increased it to 8d6 for the crit. I thought the usual approach would be to double the damage so you would roll 4d6 and double it. The probabilities are better to roll 22 with 4d6 than to roll 43 with 8d6. In that case, doubling the damage from 4d6, you still have a 5% crit and the probability or rolling 22 or better on 4d6 is 1.47% for a total probability of 0.073%; a little better than 7 in ten thousand. You'll likely play the rest of the campaign and not see such an improbable result again.
Would you reverse the effect, for targets making saving throws, and rolling a Nat 1? Our DM has been ruling that a Nat 1 on a spell save causes maximum damage/effect.
RAW, no. What your DM does seems incredibly deadly. Not only since you normally don't autofail saves on a 1 which means that everyone's saving throws are incredibly nerfed and certain class abilites (Monks' Diamond Soul and Paladins' Aura of Protection) even more so. Add to the fact that most spells that require a saving throw (like fireball) doesn't use attack rolls which means that you can't get a critical hit with them. On top of that, maximum damage is almost certain to be as high or, depending on the roll, higher than doubling the dice from a critical hit.
For weapon Crits, we maximize the base attack, then roll the extra set of dice *OR* get to pick an extra effect like "knock prone", "dazed", or "disarmed". So longsword does 8 (+bonuses), with potential for d8 more (no bonuses) or a flashy effect. Compared to that, "max damage on a spell" didn't seem too powerful for a Nat 1 (essentially, the spell critically hitting). I'm not aware of any situation where I would normally succeed on a roll of 1+bonuses, since DCs start at 10 even for incompetent "stat 10" casters.
Of course, we've only played through level 4 so far. No one has "Nat 1'd" a fireball save or dragonbreath, for example.
A PC can have a Save bonus of 11+ just by being proficient and having a 20 in that stat. Against a DC up to 12 there should be no way to fail that unless you make them auto fail on a 1. The game is specifically designed not to work that way.
Would you reverse the effect, for targets making saving throws, and rolling a Nat 1? Our DM has been ruling that a Nat 1 on a spell save causes maximum damage/effect.
RAW, no. What your DM does seems incredibly deadly. Not only since you normally don't autofail saves on a 1 which means that everyone's saving throws are incredibly nerfed and certain class abilites (Monks' Diamond Soul and Paladins' Aura of Protection) even more so. Add to the fact that most spells that require a saving throw (like fireball) doesn't use attack rolls which means that you can't get a critical hit with them. On top of that, maximum damage is almost certain to be as high or, depending on the roll, higher than doubling the dice from a critical hit.
For weapon Crits, we maximize the base attack, then roll the extra set of dice *OR* get to pick an extra effect like "knock prone", "dazed", or "disarmed". So longsword does 8 (+bonuses), with potential for d8 more (no bonuses) or a flashy effect. Compared to that, "max damage on a spell" didn't seem too powerful for a Nat 1 (essentially, the spell critically hitting). I'm not aware of any situation where I would normally succeed on a roll of 1+bonuses, since DCs start at 10 even for incompetent "stat 10" casters.
Of course, we've only played through level 4 so far. No one has "Nat 1'd" a fireball save or dragonbreath, for example.
So besides the fact that you rather drastically changed the rules of the game you also failed to take into account the fact that a single weapon attack only does damage and only to a single creature whereas many spells can target multiple people?
Also, "not succeeding on a roll of 1+bonuses" is not the same thing as "critical failure on a rolle of 1". If you have a Paladin in your party at level 6 (or just anyone who can cast Bless) you can easily have saving throw bonuses of 10+.
Hey there,
If a spellcaster rolls a natural 20 on a spell attack, is that double damage just like a normal attack? Can you please point me to the rules that say one way or the other?
The reason I ask is because DMing a game a couple weeks ago (I'm new at this) a 2nd level cleric rolled a 20 to hit with a Guiding Bolt spell. I ruled that it seemed like he could roll double damage based on the wording of attack rolls, and he went on to roll an really exceptional 43 points of damage, putting a rather quick end to what I expected to be a challenging and dramatic boss fight. Yeah, his dice were on fire and I wouldn't expect this regularly, but it seemed really over the top, even given its improbability.
This is true. If an attack roll is made then a 20 cries and doubles the dice.
Any spell using an attack roll that is a 20 is a critical hit and results in doubled damage dice ... melee, ranged, and some spells may all use attack rolls. Rules citations are below.
PHB 193-194
MAKING AN ATTACK
Whether you're striking with a melee weapon, firing a weapon at range, or making an attack roll as part of a spell, an attack has a simple structure.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll.
ATTACK ROLLS
When you make an attack, your attack roll determines whether the attack hits or misses. To make an attack roll, roll a d20 and add the appropriate modifiers.
ROLLING I OR 20
Sometimes fate blesses or curses a combatant, causing the novice to hit and the veteran to miss. If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit, as explained later in this chapter.
CRITICAL HITS
When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack's damage against the target. Roll all of the attack's damage dice twice and add them together. ... If the attack involves other damage dice, such as from the rogue's Sneak Attack feature, you roll those dice twice as well.
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Keep in mind that the last sentence of the critical hits section means that rogue sneak attack dice, paladin or warlock smite damage and other kinds of damage die rolls are also rolled twice on a crit. A fifth level rogue for example might crit for 2d8 + 6d6 if they crit with a long bow or rapier. Static damage additions like strength/dex bonus are not doubled. The crit guiding bolt is cool doing 8d6 but it won't be that common.
yeah, 43 from 8d6 is more just luck of the dice there. that's a lot of 5s and 6s. the improbability is not that he crit, but that the damage roll was so ridiculous.
Thanks for the rapid responses! Yeah, it was crazy to see a natural 20 followed up by all those 5s and 6s... In fact, it might have been all 5s and 6s. My heart sank as that was a quick end to a long planned fight, but I couldn't take it away from the players who were thrilled.
Dang...
Or if that rogue went 3 levels of Fighter for the Champion subclass that crit hits on 19, and 20 it can get wild
It will be just as common as any other critical... that is, 5%.
(Unless you have something that improves critical chance like Champion, in which case it would be higher.)
Would you reverse the effect, for targets making saving throws, and rolling a Nat 1? Our DM has been ruling that a Nat 1 on a spell save causes maximum damage/effect.
RAW, no. What your DM does seems incredibly deadly. Not only since you normally don't autofail saves on a 1 which means that everyone's saving throws are incredibly nerfed and certain class abilites (Monks' Diamond Soul and Paladins' Aura of Protection) even more so. Add to the fact that most spells that require a saving throw (like fireball) doesn't use attack rolls which means that you can't get a critical hit with them. On top of that, maximum damage is almost certain to be as high or, depending on the roll, higher than doubling the dice from a critical hit.
Spells that use a attack roll are intentionally balanced around being able to crit. Spells requiring saves can generally effect a group of enemies rather than one, and also sometimes allow people to take half damage on a save (evasion is not taken into account here). You can also target specific saves if you get enough saving throw spells. Probably more things that I'm missing here.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
Don't change any of your approach to D&D based on this encounter. The probability of rolling a crit is 5%. The probability of rolling a 45 or better with 8d6 is 0.076% based on my calcs. The probability of doing both of these together is 0.00381%.
However, if there are any +1s or +2s hidden in your numbers then the probabilities can get much higher quickly.
I'm assuming your damage roll was going to be 4d6 but you increased it to 8d6 for the crit. I thought the usual approach would be to double the damage so you would roll 4d6 and double it. The probabilities are better to roll 22 with 4d6 than to roll 43 with 8d6. In that case, doubling the damage from 4d6, you still have a 5% crit and the probability or rolling 22 or better on 4d6 is 1.47% for a total probability of 0.073%; a little better than 7 in ten thousand. You'll likely play the rest of the campaign and not see such an improbable result again.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
For weapon Crits, we maximize the base attack, then roll the extra set of dice *OR* get to pick an extra effect like "knock prone", "dazed", or "disarmed". So longsword does 8 (+bonuses), with potential for d8 more (no bonuses) or a flashy effect. Compared to that, "max damage on a spell" didn't seem too powerful for a Nat 1 (essentially, the spell critically hitting). I'm not aware of any situation where I would normally succeed on a roll of 1+bonuses, since DCs start at 10 even for incompetent "stat 10" casters.
Of course, we've only played through level 4 so far. No one has "Nat 1'd" a fireball save or dragonbreath, for example.
A PC can have a Save bonus of 11+ just by being proficient and having a 20 in that stat. Against a DC up to 12 there should be no way to fail that unless you make them auto fail on a 1. The game is specifically designed not to work that way.
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So besides the fact that you rather drastically changed the rules of the game you also failed to take into account the fact that a single weapon attack only does damage and only to a single creature whereas many spells can target multiple people?
Also, "not succeeding on a roll of 1+bonuses" is not the same thing as "critical failure on a rolle of 1". If you have a Paladin in your party at level 6 (or just anyone who can cast Bless) you can easily have saving throw bonuses of 10+.
If you are afrait of those crazy high crit rolls, you could houserule to do max damage instead of rolling the damage dice twice.
So instead of rolling 4d6 twice + wisdom mod you can do a 4*(6+1)+ wisdom mod.
Overall it will be very close to the same damage on average but without the extra high or extra low outliners.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]Why would you all of the sudden add your wisdom modifier?
I just assumed guiding bolt adds the wisdom mod. I could be wrong.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]Why would it?
My bad, i never use guiding bolt on my clerric, i use mostly healing spells and spiritual weapon, all of them add my wisdom mod.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]