So I'm confused about "Form of the Beast - Claws."
You can only use it if your hand is empty on a Rage. The only way to use this seems to be dropping your weapon or using a versatile (possibly using a 2h and briefly holding in 1h, but that's prob not RAW).
This means no dual wielding, shield+1h and possibly no Greataxe. It just seems really clunky and terrible.
Am I missing something?
I read through other forum posts, but I didn't see a simple answer to this question.
You don’t need weapons. You have 1d6 claws that allows you to attack two times with them before level 5. After level 5 you’ll be able to attack 3 times with your claws. This is really good.
So you're saying just drop the weapon when you Rage?
At level 5:
If you do that you get 1d8 longsword, etc. and then 2x 1d6 claw attacks = 1d8 + 2d6
Isn't this similar to 2x 1d12 Greataxe attacks? 2d12
Honestly, just put the weapon away and don't use it. You won't miss the 1 average damage as much as you'll hate picking up and dropping a weapon every turn (especially if the DM decides a monster wants to pick it up).
As for damage, at level 5 your damage bonus is probably around 6 while raging. So that is 3d6+18 (28.5) vs 2d12+12 (25). So it is more damage and you can use a shield.
first round, attack with claws 3 times with one action while activating rage, but pull out a hand axe.
2nd round, attack twice with claws, then pull out second hand axe and use your remaining attack on your action and then two weapon fighting bonus action attack.
first round, attack with claws 3 times with one action while activating rage, but pull out a hand axe.
2nd round, attack twice with claws, then pull out second hand axe and use your remaining attack on your action and then two weapon fighting bonus action attack.
Ok, this does 5.5 extra damage over the course of 2 turns. That averages 2.75 extra damage per turn.
Alternatively, you could wield a greataxe and just take a hand off to make 2 claw attacks then make 1 axe attack and do 3 extra damage every turn on average.
The first turn when you activate rage the great axe does more damage. The 2nd turn, and every round after that, the hand axe/claw combo deals more damage. As long as the barbarian can take 3 tuns the edge goes to the hand axe/claw combo, so long as GWM feat isnt used.
the rage bonus also has a slightly stronger effect with the bonus action attack since it can Potentially be applied 4 times instead of 3.
or you can play a “crazy” defensive barbarian that actually uses a shield, still able to make full use of this subclasses features.
The first turn when you activate rage the great axe does more damage. The 2nd turn, and every round after that, the hand axe/claw combo deals more damage. As long as the barbarian can take 3 tuns the edge goes to the hand axe/claw combo, so long as GWM feat isnt used.
the rage bonus also has a slightly stronger effect with the bonus action attack since it can Potentially be applied 4 times instead of 3.
or you can play a “crazy” defensive barbarian that actually uses a shield, still able to make full use of this subclasses features.
Oh, you mean dropping your weapon every turn and picking it back up don't you? I really hate that "tactic."
And I factored the rage damage. TWF wouldn't even be worth trying without it (since barbarians don't get a fighting style for some reason...).
Personally, I like melee characters to be tanky. And I will usually be willing to sacrifice 5% more damage for 10% more AC.
first round, attack with claws 3 times with one action while activating rage, but pull out a hand axe.
2nd round, attack twice with claws, then pull out second hand axe and use your remaining attack on your action and then two weapon fighting bonus action attack.
I don’t know if you could employ this without the Dual Wielder feat. Claws are simple melee weapons, but they are not light weapons.
first round, attack with claws 3 times with one action while activating rage, but pull out a hand axe.
2nd round, attack twice with claws, then pull out second hand axe and use your remaining attack on your action and then two weapon fighting bonus action attack.
I don’t know if you could employ this without the Dual Wielder feat. Claws are simple melee weapons, but they are not light weapons.
No. It works. With extra attack, he has 2 attacks. The first attack is 2 claw attacks, then draw axe and attack with it while holding axe from previous turn (this meets requirements for TWF), then bonus action attack with second axe.
It works, RAW, certainly. It feels silly, and involves repeated stowing and drawing of weapons to allow it to continue, but it fits the written rule.
I think many DMs would disallow it as an attempt to exploit loopholes, though.
No, I think he is simply attacking twice with the same hand. The rules say "Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action." It doesn't specify that this additional attack must be made with the OTHER hand.
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. In the context of discussing the Path of the Beast, I would assume "claw weapon" to be the actual natural claw manifested by the Form of the Beast. It won't be listed in weapons, it is shown as part of the Form of the Beast trait in TCoE.
Ah, I've just re-read your opening question and I think I see your confusion.
It doesn't matter whether you are holding a weapon when you Rage. If you Rage and then choose Claws as your Form of the Beast option, your hands transform into claws. These are natural weapons. You can hold a weapon in them, but if you don't you can attack with the claw instead (with damage dice of 1d6). If you attack with a claw, you can make one additional attack with it as part of that action per turn.
If you went savage in a blind rage and partially turned into a beast, I think it is fairly thematic and "realistic" (if that word can be applied here) that you would put your weapon away (or drop it) and slash at them with your claws.
Also, I think most Barbarians would rage at the start of combat, before they have drawn their weapons.
However, that said, you could still be holding a single handed weapon. You don't need both hands/claws free to make the attacks, although you do need one.
I'm sure there are lots of ways to play Barbarian, but I typically Rage on round 1 to make the most of the feature. Thus the transition is never "mid-battle" for me.
I would run one of three builds - 2-hand weapon that you can use with claws, claw/shield, or just empty-handed. None of those would need to switch. All this axe-juggling might be RAW, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for a raging beast trope to me. With Insignia of Claws or the various STR belts, claws stand as fine weapons on their own. So I don't really worry about what weapons my raging beast would use instead of just clawing something's face off.
Seems to me that most rules interactions involving references off of more than one page are deemed “exploits”. Doesn’t make much sense to me, why would we continue to buy these products, especially player centered subclass additions that require multiple sources to be used effectively, if we just call it an exploit because you don’t like the way it interacts with base rules?
Would like the point out that this post is in the Rules and Game Mechanics forum.
That being said, while the “drop” technique is valid, I’d say it might be likely that it more naturally works with the fact that handaxes are thrown weapons. I don’t think it would be so difficult to imagine a barbarian having several hand axes available to do both the drop and throw technique.
if you have an issue with the mechanics then maybe describe it in a different way? It’s not like this feature choice turns the barbarian into a powerhouse. It actually hurts the classes damage output immensely since it can’t effectively make use of the greatweapon master feat. what do you get in return? A suite of combat subclass abilities that seem to be “overbalanced” because they are on the same subclasses list. Claws aren’t good even if you do make full use of the rules. The other options suck too.
So I'm confused about "Form of the Beast - Claws."
You can only use it if your hand is empty on a Rage. The only way to use this seems to be dropping your weapon or using a versatile (possibly using a 2h and briefly holding in 1h, but that's prob not RAW).
This means no dual wielding, shield+1h and possibly no Greataxe. It just seems really clunky and terrible.
Am I missing something?
I read through other forum posts, but I didn't see a simple answer to this question.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/barbarian#PathoftheBeast
You don’t need weapons. You have 1d6 claws that allows you to attack two times with them before level 5. After level 5 you’ll be able to attack 3 times with your claws. This is really good.
So you're saying just drop the weapon when you Rage?
At level 5:
If you do that you get 1d8 longsword, etc. and then 2x 1d6 claw attacks = 1d8 + 2d6
Isn't this similar to 2x 1d12 Greataxe attacks? 2d12
Honestly, just put the weapon away and don't use it. You won't miss the 1 average damage as much as you'll hate picking up and dropping a weapon every turn (especially if the DM decides a monster wants to pick it up).
As for damage, at level 5 your damage bonus is probably around 6 while raging. So that is 3d6+18 (28.5) vs 2d12+12 (25). So it is more damage and you can use a shield.
first round, attack with claws 3 times with one action while activating rage, but pull out a hand axe.
2nd round, attack twice with claws, then pull out second hand axe and use your remaining attack on your action and then two weapon fighting bonus action attack.
Ok, this does 5.5 extra damage over the course of 2 turns. That averages 2.75 extra damage per turn.
Alternatively, you could wield a greataxe and just take a hand off to make 2 claw attacks then make 1 axe attack and do 3 extra damage every turn on average.
The first turn when you activate rage the great axe does more damage. The 2nd turn, and every round after that, the hand axe/claw combo deals more damage. As long as the barbarian can take 3 tuns the edge goes to the hand axe/claw combo, so long as GWM feat isnt used.
the rage bonus also has a slightly stronger effect with the bonus action attack since it can Potentially be applied 4 times instead of 3.
or you can play a “crazy” defensive barbarian that actually uses a shield, still able to make full use of this subclasses features.
Oh, you mean dropping your weapon every turn and picking it back up don't you? I really hate that "tactic."
And I factored the rage damage. TWF wouldn't even be worth trying without it (since barbarians don't get a fighting style for some reason...).
Personally, I like melee characters to be tanky. And I will usually be willing to sacrifice 5% more damage for 10% more AC.
Multiclass one level in Monk and attack 4 times
I don’t know if you could employ this without the Dual Wielder feat. Claws are simple melee weapons, but they are not light weapons.
No. It works. With extra attack, he has 2 attacks. The first attack is 2 claw attacks, then draw axe and attack with it while holding axe from previous turn (this meets requirements for TWF), then bonus action attack with second axe.
It works, RAW, certainly. It feels silly, and involves repeated stowing and drawing of weapons to allow it to continue, but it fits the written rule.
I think many DMs would disallow it as an attempt to exploit loopholes, though.
No, I think he is simply attacking twice with the same hand. The rules say "Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action." It doesn't specify that this additional attack must be made with the OTHER hand.
No it doesn't, that's true. However, I think what DxJxC is doing is (correct me if I am wrong):
Next round, I assume, would be:
It works, RAW, I think. However, I am sure many DMs would not look kindly on exploits like this.
I appreciate the responses and read through all of them.
Question:
For a relaxed home game would you guys consider it balanced to take Dual Wielder feat and call two Battleaxes "claw weapons."
I don't own all the sourcebooks, but when I looked for claws they didn't show up. A bunch of homebrew came up when I googled it.
Not trying to live by RAW, just go by "fair and balanced play."
Sorry my understanding of rules is pretty noob.
Thanks!!!
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. In the context of discussing the Path of the Beast, I would assume "claw weapon" to be the actual natural claw manifested by the Form of the Beast. It won't be listed in weapons, it is shown as part of the Form of the Beast trait in TCoE.
Ah, I've just re-read your opening question and I think I see your confusion.
It doesn't matter whether you are holding a weapon when you Rage. If you Rage and then choose Claws as your Form of the Beast option, your hands transform into claws. These are natural weapons. You can hold a weapon in them, but if you don't you can attack with the claw instead (with damage dice of 1d6). If you attack with a claw, you can make one additional attack with it as part of that action per turn.
Right, I get that.
I was trying to find a weapon type compatible with those natural claws to simplify.
Say spiked gauntlets/claws that you punch with, but when you rage you slash with your "natural claws."
Seems more thematically realistic and avoid the stowing of weapons mid battle.
I mean I guess in shows they pause mid battle to go Super Saiyan, but it seems silly to me to put away your weapons mid battle.
Just trying to keep it fair :X
If you went savage in a blind rage and partially turned into a beast, I think it is fairly thematic and "realistic" (if that word can be applied here) that you would put your weapon away (or drop it) and slash at them with your claws.
Also, I think most Barbarians would rage at the start of combat, before they have drawn their weapons.
However, that said, you could still be holding a single handed weapon. You don't need both hands/claws free to make the attacks, although you do need one.
I'm sure there are lots of ways to play Barbarian, but I typically Rage on round 1 to make the most of the feature. Thus the transition is never "mid-battle" for me.
I would run one of three builds - 2-hand weapon that you can use with claws, claw/shield, or just empty-handed. None of those would need to switch. All this axe-juggling might be RAW, but it doesn't make a lot of sense for a raging beast trope to me. With Insignia of Claws or the various STR belts, claws stand as fine weapons on their own. So I don't really worry about what weapons my raging beast would use instead of just clawing something's face off.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Seems to me that most rules interactions involving references off of more than one page are deemed “exploits”. Doesn’t make much sense to me, why would we continue to buy these products, especially player centered subclass additions that require multiple sources to be used effectively, if we just call it an exploit because you don’t like the way it interacts with base rules?
Would like the point out that this post is in the Rules and Game Mechanics forum.
That being said, while the “drop” technique is valid, I’d say it might be likely that it more naturally works with the fact that handaxes are thrown weapons. I don’t think it would be so difficult to imagine a barbarian having several hand axes available to do both the drop and throw technique.
if you have an issue with the mechanics then maybe describe it in a different way? It’s not like this feature choice turns the barbarian into a powerhouse. It actually hurts the classes damage output immensely since it can’t effectively make use of the greatweapon master feat. what do you get in return? A suite of combat subclass abilities that seem to be “overbalanced” because they are on the same subclasses list. Claws aren’t good even if you do make full use of the rules. The other options suck too.