Hi maybe this isn't the best place for this but it's the place I usually start so. I'm looking for advice on making use of the shove action when to do it, who to do it too, when to knock prone and when to move 5 feet, and most importantly how high an athletics bonus is needed to do it reliably.
For some brief context my old character just died and my new character (conquest paladin/undeadlock) has room for two feats while still maxing strength, one will be Shieldmaster the other I am currently choosing between Heavy Armor Master and Skill Expert (for Athletics Expertise).
My athletics is currently a +8 and expertise would crank that up to eleven, also if you want to throw in a surprise third option feel free too.
I'd recommend having expertise in Athletics for shoving and grappling, especially if you don't have a source of advantage like Rage.
Avoid knocking prone if you have several ranged/reach attackers in the party. Prone grants disadvantage on attacks against a creature for attackers more than 5ft away. This is also a good thing for spellcaster party members to keep in mind when they face ranged attacks. If you can target an airborn creature, knocking them prone knocks them out of the air.
Shoving 5ft can be useful if you regularly find hazards that you can push enemies into (off a boat or cliff, into a wall of fire or trap) or find yourself being blocked. It can also be useful to help squishy/ranged party members get out of melee without requiring a disengage or opportunity attack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
It is a bit misleading to say that it does not work with booming blade. True, the secondary damage of booming blade does not go off due to the forced move of the shove, but it can be very useful in "forcing" an opponent (particularly one with only melee attacks) to willingly use their movement to re-engage, thus activating the secondary damage.
Normally speaking, shoving can only be done as part of the Attack action (replacing an attack), or as a bonus action afterward if you have the Shield Master feat. Only a Bladesinger can cast Booming Blade as part of the Attack action. For others, it is the [Tooltip Not Found] action. Since the OP is playing a Paladin/Warlock, Booming Blade/shove is not really relevant unless a party member uses the spell. If they do, then this would be a great teamwork tactic.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
Sorry for the very late reply and thank you very much for the advice. A final question I have is, do you think it would be worth delaying max strength and boosting say Charisma with the Skill Expert feat so that I can take Heavy Armour Master later.
Sorry for the very late reply and thank you very much for the advice. A final question I have is, do you think it would be worth delaying max strength and boosting say Charisma with the Skill Expert feat so that I can take Heavy Armour Master later.
We can't give advice on that without knowing your statline and build. It's like asking us if you should take the Crusher feat instead of Heavy Armour Master - we just don't know enough to answer you.
Generally shove prone is more powerful the more attacks you are going to make while they are knocked down and more expensive the more damage you do in a single attack. So generally speaking you want to use it when you would make lots of attacks for example at the start of your attack as a fight especially when using action surged or your allies are going to make lots of attacks. For example if you and another melee player are attacking an enemy and you are not using flanking.
Shove is also good when movement would trigger more damage than one of your attacks. For example if you are pushing them into the AOE of a spell, off a ledge or into a trap. It can also be worth while using it to help an ally disengage when they are at risk. For example if you are guarding a wizard, you could save them and action by pushing an enemy out of melee instead of them having to disengage.
Sorry for the very late reply and thank you very much for the advice. A final question I have is, do you think it would be worth delaying max strength and boosting say Charisma with the Skill Expert feat so that I can take Heavy Armour Master later.
Heavy Armor Mastery is a feat that provides diminishing returns the later you take it. After a while, most of the time you'll find that you're facing enemies that either hit so hard that the -3 damage isn't noticeable, or you're just fighting so many enemies that ignore it due to dealing either magical physical damage or elemental damage that you're not getting benefit from it very much. If you're waiting past 8th level, consider picking up a different feat like Piercer/Slasher/Crusher (based on your preferred melee weapon) instead.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Heavy armour master is a terrible feat. I don’t know anyone who has taken it in my games. It is pretty much only useful at low levels. Increasing your strength would give you +1 to athletics, and by the sound of it your proficiency bonus is +4 so expertise would give you +4 so there’s a clear winner there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hi maybe this isn't the best place for this but it's the place I usually start so. I'm looking for advice on making use of the shove action when to do it, who to do it too, when to knock prone and when to move 5 feet, and most importantly how high an athletics bonus is needed to do it reliably.
For some brief context my old character just died and my new character (conquest paladin/undeadlock) has room for two feats while still maxing strength, one will be Shieldmaster the other I am currently choosing between Heavy Armor Master and Skill Expert (for Athletics Expertise).
My athletics is currently a +8 and expertise would crank that up to eleven, also if you want to throw in a surprise third option feel free too.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorI'd recommend having expertise in Athletics for shoving and grappling, especially if you don't have a source of advantage like Rage.
Avoid knocking prone if you have several ranged/reach attackers in the party. Prone grants disadvantage on attacks against a creature for attackers more than 5ft away. This is also a good thing for spellcaster party members to keep in mind when they face ranged attacks. If you can target an airborn creature, knocking them prone knocks them out of the air.
Shoving 5ft can be useful if you regularly find hazards that you can push enemies into (off a boat or cliff, into a wall of fire or trap) or find yourself being blocked. It can also be useful to help squishy/ranged party members get out of melee without requiring a disengage or opportunity attack.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources
Shoving is a great party support ability. You combine it with other things, particularly movement based casters.
This does not work with booming blade, because that says willing move.
But someone that does a lot of area effect spells works great. They make the area, you shove them in.
It is a bit misleading to say that it does not work with booming blade. True, the secondary damage of booming blade does not go off due to the forced move of the shove, but it can be very useful in "forcing" an opponent (particularly one with only melee attacks) to willingly use their movement to re-engage, thus activating the secondary damage.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorNormally speaking, shoving can only be done as part of the Attack action (replacing an attack), or as a bonus action afterward if you have the Shield Master feat. Only a Bladesinger can cast Booming Blade as part of the Attack action. For others, it is the [Tooltip Not Found] action. Since the OP is playing a Paladin/Warlock, Booming Blade/shove is not really relevant unless a party member uses the spell. If they do, then this would be a great teamwork tactic.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources
Sorry for the very late reply and thank you very much for the advice. A final question I have is, do you think it would be worth delaying max strength and boosting say Charisma with the Skill Expert feat so that I can take Heavy Armour Master later.
We can't give advice on that without knowing your statline and build. It's like asking us if you should take the Crusher feat instead of Heavy Armour Master - we just don't know enough to answer you.
Generally shove prone is more powerful the more attacks you are going to make while they are knocked down and more expensive the more damage you do in a single attack. So generally speaking you want to use it when you would make lots of attacks for example at the start of your attack as a fight especially when using action surged or your allies are going to make lots of attacks. For example if you and another melee player are attacking an enemy and you are not using flanking.
Shove is also good when movement would trigger more damage than one of your attacks. For example if you are pushing them into the AOE of a spell, off a ledge or into a trap. It can also be worth while using it to help an ally disengage when they are at risk. For example if you are guarding a wizard, you could save them and action by pushing an enemy out of melee instead of them having to disengage.
Heavy Armor Mastery is a feat that provides diminishing returns the later you take it. After a while, most of the time you'll find that you're facing enemies that either hit so hard that the -3 damage isn't noticeable, or you're just fighting so many enemies that ignore it due to dealing either magical physical damage or elemental damage that you're not getting benefit from it very much. If you're waiting past 8th level, consider picking up a different feat like Piercer/Slasher/Crusher (based on your preferred melee weapon) instead.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Heavy armour master is a terrible feat. I don’t know anyone who has taken it in my games. It is pretty much only useful at low levels. Increasing your strength would give you +1 to athletics, and by the sound of it your proficiency bonus is +4 so expertise would give you +4 so there’s a clear winner there.