First off, this is not a Dance Bard vs Monk thread so if you want to discuss that topic, there are other threads for that.
I've been looking at the Dance Bard and I feel that the class is very thematic.
1. Dazzling Footwork: Unarmored defense because a dancer wouldn't want to be restricted by armor. Agile Strikes they can lash out at a target with an unarmed strike. I picture it as part of their dance moves. Dazzling Footwork is a combat buff to themselves.
2. Inspiring Movement: dancers are all about movement and it is a buff to themselves and an ally.
3. Leading Evasion: a party buff.
4. Tandem Footwork: a party buff.
5. Irresistible Dance: an enemy debuff.
So what is their role in the party? The features all fit the dance theme quite well. But most of them are buffs. Then you get a debuff feature at the end. And Dazzling Footwork is a melee feature. Are they supposed to be a frontliner? It doesn't quite feel like that, but their first feature at level 3 is all about melee. Yet nothing else in the subclass really builds off of that. I guess Inspiring Footwork does because you can run in, make an unarmed strike (Agile Strike) and your ally, presumably a squishier character or wounded character, can safely move out of melee. A skirmisher maybe?
Maybe I just don't have enough experience with Bards. I haven't played one myself, but there is one in my party. They are good support, and a face for the party, but usually not a melee combatant unless you go swords or valor. And those subclasses are built around those.
Since they are a full caster. What spells do you think would work well with this subclass design? Other than what would work on any Bard.
Anyway, was thinking about this and wanted to see what other people thought. Maybe I'm missing something. I like the subclass, like I said, it fits the theme very well.
Dance Bard could take the Primal spell list for Zephyr Strike or Ensnaring Strike to enhance their skirmishing/melee combat if that's what they want to focus on, or they could take the Divine spell list and play in melee with Spirit Guardians. I think the intended playstyle is "partner"-ing with a melee character and supporting them both in melee with them or at short range.
THEY NEED A DANCE PARTNER! This made me unreasonably happy.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I agree it's strong flavor-wise, but the 14th level feature makes it especially confusing what the point of the subclass is mechanically. I think a free Otiluke's is a good ribbon feature, but there should be something else at that level to more clearly define the playstyle.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Am I the only person who, when they read about the dance bard, immediately thought about the dance battle scene in Breakin' 2, followed quickly by the breakdance fighting scene in Zoolander? I can't be the only one.
To answer the question, I'd say skirmisher could work. or just lean into the caster end. Some charm spells could be really thematic, someone who hypnotizes people with their magical hips.
Am I the only person who, when they read about the dance bard, immediately thought about the dance battle scene in Breakin' 2, followed quickly by the breakdance fighting scene in Zoolander? I can't be the only one.
To answer the question, I'd say skirmisher could work. or just lean into the caster end. Some charm spells could be really thematic, someone who hypnotizes people with their magical hips.
Nice! I was thinking White Chicks dance battle. Excellent for Otto's Irresistible Dance.
I feel this should be like Battle Master "bait and switch." Reach ally that is in melee with an enemy. Tap Ally and ask, "May I cut in?" Perform Bait and switch. Roll BI die. Ally can move Roll x5 feet away and Bard gets the Die roll added to his/her/its AC. All Without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Am I the only person who, when they read about the dance bard, immediately thought about the dance battle scene in Breakin' 2, followed quickly by the breakdance fighting scene in Zoolander? I can't be the only one.
To answer the question, I'd say skirmisher could work. or just lean into the caster end. Some charm spells could be really thematic, someone who hypnotizes people with their magical hips.
Nice! I was thinking White Chicks dance battle. Excellent for Otto's Irresistible Dance.
Yeah, I think any dance bard that doesn’t find a way to take that spell is, well, I know that technically there’s no wrong way to play D&D, but really.
I agree the Dance Bard nails it thematically. To me, everything fits except the Agile Strikes. The Bard is not quite built for being in melee (possibly spells like Shield could do the trick). Using a Bardic Inspiration dice outside of melee will feel (to me) like wasting an Agile Strike. Needing DEX for damage and CHA for Bardic Inspiration dice makes this ability Multi-Ability score Dependent. Requiring STR for Shove/Grapple means those are unlikely to be used. If CHA was used for Grapple then I'd love to Waltz an opponent into a Web or Salsa them through Spike Growth.
First off, this is not a Dance Bard vs Monk thread so if you want to discuss that topic, there are other threads for that.
I've been looking at the Dance Bard and I feel that the class is very thematic.
1. Dazzling Footwork: Unarmored defense because a dancer wouldn't want to be restricted by armor. Agile Strikes they can lash out at a target with an unarmed strike. I picture it as part of their dance moves. Dazzling Footwork is a combat buff to themselves.
2. Inspiring Movement: dancers are all about movement and it is a buff to themselves and an ally.
3. Leading Evasion: a party buff.
4. Tandem Footwork: a party buff.
5. Irresistible Dance: an enemy debuff.
So what is their role in the party? The features all fit the dance theme quite well. But most of them are buffs. Then you get a debuff feature at the end. And Dazzling Footwork is a melee feature. Are they supposed to be a frontliner? It doesn't quite feel like that, but their first feature at level 3 is all about melee. Yet nothing else in the subclass really builds off of that. I guess Inspiring Footwork does because you can run in, make an unarmed strike (Agile Strike) and your ally, presumably a squishier character or wounded character, can safely move out of melee. A skirmisher maybe?
Maybe I just don't have enough experience with Bards. I haven't played one myself, but there is one in my party. They are good support, and a face for the party, but usually not a melee combatant unless you go swords or valor. And those subclasses are built around those.
Since they are a full caster. What spells do you think would work well with this subclass design? Other than what would work on any Bard.
Anyway, was thinking about this and wanted to see what other people thought. Maybe I'm missing something. I like the subclass, like I said, it fits the theme very well.
Again, this is not a Dance Bard vs Monk thread.
I would be happy if they removed the melee parts, because as you said, they are very much on flavor... Or you could have they could benefit from some of the cunning strikes more, and have it take from their Bardic inspo. I can see them being the type to sweep goblins off their feet, or dazzle them with their outfits and moves..
(I am serious about the cunning strikes for BI and the skirmisher that does minimal damage but really puts a hurt on enemies with status effects. Liberace is just an easy laugh)
I agree the Dance Bard nails it thematically. To me, everything fits except the Agile Strikes. The Bard is not quite built for being in melee (possibly spells like Shield could do the trick). Using a Bardic Inspiration dice outside of melee will feel (to me) like wasting an Agile Strike. Needing DEX for damage and CHA for Bardic Inspiration dice makes this ability Multi-Ability score Dependent. Requiring STR for Shove/Grapple means those are unlikely to be used. If CHA was used for Grapple then I'd love to Waltz an opponent into a Web or Salsa them through Spike Growth.
i think the agile strike is less strictly for 'dpr' situations, and more broadly for "did you see the show? ...and a one and a KICK! grab his keys!" moments.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Thank you for making this thread, ThriKreenWarrior!
Speaking of the Dancer's class features, I felt that the 14th-level one was a bit... well, it's fine, I guess? But does it have that bit of extra that really makes it feel like a proper feature? It is thematic, of course. But how about we add a bit more fun to it?
What would happen if we tacked this sentence on?
"A bard who is adjacent to the target of their Irresistable Dance ability can spend an action during their turn to dance with the target, imposing disadvantage on the target's saving throw to end the effect. If the bard does so, they also get advantage on any concentration check to maintain this spell."
... maybe I just want to boogie with a perplexed mindflayer? Is that so wrong?
I feel that the idea is more in and out of the frontline, using inspiring footwork to allow more movement back out after running in to hit an enemy, and then sitting in the backlines and buffing your allies, using spells to debuff enemies as well, making it easier for your party to operate.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Without Extra Attack or access to martial-weapon locked feats, they'll never be a good front line fighter type that focuses on damage. Entangling Strike or Wrathful Smite as control could be good if you want to focus on kicking someone and using control (though its sad Thunderous Smite isn't available, that'd be more thematic). Much like the Monk, you're MAD with DEX and CHA and want to spend all your ASI on bumping one of your two stats instead of getting feats.
That said, the Dancer Bard abilities are reactions or otherwise off turn abilities. Nothing that takes your action. So, you're just as good at using spells while chilling next to your dance partner as you are at dashing up and kicking w/ smite spells. And, thanks to access to any spell list, you could be flinging fireballs or other high damage/battlefield control magic while chilling with your partner.
So, you pick a dance partner, you stick with them while either A) darting in and out of melee, using Entangling Strike or Wrathful Smite, or B) using standard spell options and just use the subclass abilities. As you grow in level, you'll more likely be defaulting to B more than A, as there are just better options for mass crowd control than there are for bumping up a smite spell level. You'll also be sacrificing your lower level spellslots for more uses of Inspired Movement and Tandem Footwork.
That's also why Irresistible Dance works so well with the lower levels. Its exactly what you want to do - cast a good spell with your Action, spend your BI on reaction / initiative rolls, and only kick enemies as part of the reactions.
Had a weird thought, though haven't had a chance to playtest it yet. Does it make any real difference if the party has *two* Dancing Bards working off of each other?
Had a weird thought, though haven't had a chance to playtest it yet. Does it make any real difference if the party has *two* Dancing Bards working off of each other?
Yes it makes a difference. Mostly in that the level 6 features (increased initiative, shared Evasion) don't really stack, so you're kind of wasting the feature. You can trade off who has to spend the BI for initiative, which is an advantage, I suppose.
Shared evasion is a very short range, so it may or may not be wasted with double dancers.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Forget subclass features. What is the IDENTITY you want for the "College of Dance" Bard?
Use dance to beguile and entrance. (Spells) - Ability to replace vocal part of a spell with Somatic. spell with Vocal and Somatic coomponants can be cast with just Somatic . Somatic = DANCE
Use dance to punch and kick. (Like a monk no Feats requiring Martial Weapons are available to you but you get Spells / BI dice / unarmed combat increases faster than a MONK.
Use dance to move self and Allys around the battel field.
Based on UA 6 What makes and DANCE bard different than a Monk
I keep returning to how the Dancer reminds me of 4th Edition's Warlord (in a good way). Right from the start they can reposition allies: take a vulnerable character out of a threatening situation and behind cover, or send a heavily armoured fighter to a key target so they won't need to use an action to Dash on their turn. And with the Bard's own movement during an Inspiring Movement use they can head to another character in need of a Cure Wounds, or charge in alongside with their melee-focused friends. This has a lot of tactical applications!
So, I guess I feel that the current flavour of College of Dance is as an enabler for martial allies. Being able to cancan kick the monstre-du-jour is just a bonus (action).
But, yeah, combine these subclass features with some spells that synergise with them, and Dancer is a recipe for fun. Thunderwave to reposition enemies (With a somatic component of a powerful hip-bump)? Enthrall-ing belly dancing? Or tap into your inner Necrodancer and shuffle up some Animate Dead, because the party doesn't stop just because their heartbeat did? Just reimagining a lot of the other spells now available with a footloose twist is actually very inspiring for character concepts!
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First off, this is not a Dance Bard vs Monk thread so if you want to discuss that topic, there are other threads for that.
I've been looking at the Dance Bard and I feel that the class is very thematic.
1. Dazzling Footwork: Unarmored defense because a dancer wouldn't want to be restricted by armor. Agile Strikes they can lash out at a target with an unarmed strike. I picture it as part of their dance moves. Dazzling Footwork is a combat buff to themselves.
2. Inspiring Movement: dancers are all about movement and it is a buff to themselves and an ally.
3. Leading Evasion: a party buff.
4. Tandem Footwork: a party buff.
5. Irresistible Dance: an enemy debuff.
So what is their role in the party? The features all fit the dance theme quite well. But most of them are buffs. Then you get a debuff feature at the end. And Dazzling Footwork is a melee feature. Are they supposed to be a frontliner? It doesn't quite feel like that, but their first feature at level 3 is all about melee. Yet nothing else in the subclass really builds off of that. I guess Inspiring Footwork does because you can run in, make an unarmed strike (Agile Strike) and your ally, presumably a squishier character or wounded character, can safely move out of melee. A skirmisher maybe?
Maybe I just don't have enough experience with Bards. I haven't played one myself, but there is one in my party. They are good support, and a face for the party, but usually not a melee combatant unless you go swords or valor. And those subclasses are built around those.
Since they are a full caster. What spells do you think would work well with this subclass design? Other than what would work on any Bard.
Anyway, was thinking about this and wanted to see what other people thought. Maybe I'm missing something. I like the subclass, like I said, it fits the theme very well.
Again, this is not a Dance Bard vs Monk thread.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Dance Bard could take the Primal spell list for Zephyr Strike or Ensnaring Strike to enhance their skirmishing/melee combat if that's what they want to focus on, or they could take the Divine spell list and play in melee with Spirit Guardians. I think the intended playstyle is "partner"-ing with a melee character and supporting them both in melee with them or at short range.
THEY NEED A DANCE PARTNER! This made me unreasonably happy.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
I agree it's strong flavor-wise, but the 14th level feature makes it especially confusing what the point of the subclass is mechanically. I think a free Otiluke's is a good ribbon feature, but there should be something else at that level to more clearly define the playstyle.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Am I the only person who, when they read about the dance bard, immediately thought about the dance battle scene in Breakin' 2, followed quickly by the breakdance fighting scene in Zoolander? I can't be the only one.
To answer the question, I'd say skirmisher could work. or just lean into the caster end. Some charm spells could be really thematic, someone who hypnotizes people with their magical hips.
Nice! I was thinking White Chicks dance battle. Excellent for Otto's Irresistible Dance.
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Inspiring Movement
I feel this should be like Battle Master "bait and switch." Reach ally that is in melee with an enemy. Tap Ally and ask, "May I cut in?" Perform Bait and switch. Roll BI die. Ally can move Roll x5 feet away and Bard gets the Die roll added to his/her/its AC. All Without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
Yeah, I think any dance bard that doesn’t find a way to take that spell is, well, I know that technically there’s no wrong way to play D&D, but really.
I agree the Dance Bard nails it thematically. To me, everything fits except the Agile Strikes. The Bard is not quite built for being in melee (possibly spells like Shield could do the trick). Using a Bardic Inspiration dice outside of melee will feel (to me) like wasting an Agile Strike. Needing DEX for damage and CHA for Bardic Inspiration dice makes this ability Multi-Ability score Dependent. Requiring STR for Shove/Grapple means those are unlikely to be used. If CHA was used for Grapple then I'd love to Waltz an opponent into a Web or Salsa them through Spike Growth.
I would be happy if they removed the melee parts, because as you said, they are very much on flavor... Or you could have they could benefit from some of the cunning strikes more, and have it take from their Bardic inspo. I can see them being the type to sweep goblins off their feet, or dazzle them with their outfits and moves..
(I am serious about the cunning strikes for BI and the skirmisher that does minimal damage but really puts a hurt on enemies with status effects. Liberace is just an easy laugh)
i think the agile strike is less strictly for 'dpr' situations, and more broadly for "did you see the show? ...and a one and a KICK! grab his keys!" moments.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Thank you for making this thread, ThriKreenWarrior!
Speaking of the Dancer's class features, I felt that the 14th-level one was a bit... well, it's fine, I guess? But does it have that bit of extra that really makes it feel like a proper feature? It is thematic, of course. But how about we add a bit more fun to it?
What would happen if we tacked this sentence on?
"A bard who is adjacent to the target of their Irresistable Dance ability can spend an action during their turn to dance with the target, imposing disadvantage on the target's saving throw to end the effect. If the bard does so, they also get advantage on any concentration check to maintain this spell."
... maybe I just want to boogie with a perplexed mindflayer? Is that so wrong?
I feel that the idea is more in and out of the frontline, using inspiring footwork to allow more movement back out after running in to hit an enemy, and then sitting in the backlines and buffing your allies, using spells to debuff enemies as well, making it easier for your party to operate.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
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Without Extra Attack or access to martial-weapon locked feats, they'll never be a good front line fighter type that focuses on damage. Entangling Strike or Wrathful Smite as control could be good if you want to focus on kicking someone and using control (though its sad Thunderous Smite isn't available, that'd be more thematic). Much like the Monk, you're MAD with DEX and CHA and want to spend all your ASI on bumping one of your two stats instead of getting feats.
That said, the Dancer Bard abilities are reactions or otherwise off turn abilities. Nothing that takes your action. So, you're just as good at using spells while chilling next to your dance partner as you are at dashing up and kicking w/ smite spells. And, thanks to access to any spell list, you could be flinging fireballs or other high damage/battlefield control magic while chilling with your partner.
So, you pick a dance partner, you stick with them while either A) darting in and out of melee, using Entangling Strike or Wrathful Smite, or B) using standard spell options and just use the subclass abilities. As you grow in level, you'll more likely be defaulting to B more than A, as there are just better options for mass crowd control than there are for bumping up a smite spell level. You'll also be sacrificing your lower level spellslots for more uses of Inspired Movement and Tandem Footwork.
That's also why Irresistible Dance works so well with the lower levels. Its exactly what you want to do - cast a good spell with your Action, spend your BI on reaction / initiative rolls, and only kick enemies as part of the reactions.
Had a weird thought, though haven't had a chance to playtest it yet. Does it make any real difference if the party has *two* Dancing Bards working off of each other?
Yes it makes a difference. Mostly in that the level 6 features (increased initiative, shared Evasion) don't really stack, so you're kind of wasting the feature. You can trade off who has to spend the BI for initiative, which is an advantage, I suppose.
Shared evasion is a very short range, so it may or may not be wasted with double dancers.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Forget subclass features. What is the IDENTITY you want for the "College of Dance" Bard?
Use dance to beguile and entrance. (Spells) - Ability to replace vocal part of a spell with Somatic. spell with Vocal and Somatic coomponants can be cast with just Somatic . Somatic = DANCE
Use dance to punch and kick. (Like a monk no Feats requiring Martial Weapons are available to you but you get Spells / BI dice / unarmed combat increases faster than a MONK.
Use dance to move self and Allys around the battel field.
Based on UA 6 What makes and DANCE bard different than a Monk
I keep returning to how the Dancer reminds me of 4th Edition's Warlord (in a good way). Right from the start they can reposition allies: take a vulnerable character out of a threatening situation and behind cover, or send a heavily armoured fighter to a key target so they won't need to use an action to Dash on their turn. And with the Bard's own movement during an Inspiring Movement use they can head to another character in need of a Cure Wounds, or charge in alongside with their melee-focused friends. This has a lot of tactical applications!
So, I guess I feel that the current flavour of College of Dance is as an enabler for martial allies. Being able to cancan kick the monstre-du-jour is just a bonus (action).
But, yeah, combine these subclass features with some spells that synergise with them, and Dancer is a recipe for fun. Thunderwave to reposition enemies (With a somatic component of a powerful hip-bump)? Enthrall-ing belly dancing? Or tap into your inner Necrodancer and shuffle up some Animate Dead, because the party doesn't stop just because their heartbeat did? Just reimagining a lot of the other spells now available with a footloose twist is actually very inspiring for character concepts!