Hey! So me and my DM have been discussing how magic weapons (say +1 weapon) would work for my warlock. If he finds a +1 greatsword and then later decides to turn it into a maul, would the maul have +1 as well or would it just be a maul until he uses an action to turn it back into a greatsword? Is there anything in the rules that would help figure this out or is there anything you guys have decided on with your DM?
Hey! So me and my DM have been discussing how magic weapons (say +1 weapon) would work for my warlock. If he finds a +1 greatsword and then later decides to turn it into a maul, would the maul have +1 as well or would it just be a maul until he uses an action to turn it back into a greatsword? Is there anything in the rules that would help figure this out or is there anything you guys have decided on with your DM?
If you mean what I think you mean, that's fundamentally not how Pact of the Blade works. If you pactify the +1 greatsword, then when you would create your pact weapon, instead of creating one, you make the +1 greatsword appear - that is, you can't change the greatsword's form using Pact of the Blade.
"You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks."
Is what the pact of the blade tells me. My question is if I transform a +1 great sword into my pact weapon, and then via the pact of the blade want to change it from for example a greatsword to a maul, would the maul then still have the +1 benefit?
You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see the Weapons section for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die.
You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.
Yes, you can change your +1 Greatsword into a +1 Maul.
"You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks."
Is what the pact of the blade tells me. My question is if I transform a +1 great sword into my pact weapon, and then via the pact of the blade want to change it from for example a greatsword to a maul, would the maul then still have the +1 benefit?
You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter.
Bold text is why you can't change its form. The greatsword appears when you create your pact weapon, not a maul.
Ultimately, it's up to your DM, but the way we read the rules at our tables is that you cannot change a magic weapon's form.
For example - you find a +2 greatsword, and make it your pact weapon. Great... your pact weapon is now a +2 greatsword. You can summon or dismiss it all you want.
You cannot turn that greatsword into a maul, or any other weapon. Per the quote above - "and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter."
The closest I've come to that is playing with a DM who allowed summoning the pact weapon in other forms, but without the properties of the magic weapon - ie: your pact weapon is a +2 greatsword. If I summon a spear, it's a standard spear (with pact weapon properties), but no +2.
People keep leaving off the part where it says you get to choose the form of the weapon. I think everyone is clear on the idea that you can do that with a weapon created out of nothing. When you have a pre-existing magical weapon you can turn it into your Pact Weapon. So then, can you choose the form of your new magical weapon? Does it say anywhere that you cannot?
The "Plain English" rule is that when you read over what is said, unless you are told otherwise, you only get what it says, no more, and no less. Would someone mind terribly marking out in bold text the line where it says "You can't change the form of a magical pact weapon"? The only line where I see the word "Can't" is the one that says "You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way." I don't see it stated that a +1 Greatsword is an Artifact, nor anything that says it is Sentient. The original poster certainly didn't say it was.
Really, the only question is what happens when your Pact Weapon stops being a Pact Weapon. What form is it in now? Nothing says. My guess is that it turns back into it's original form. If you had a +1 Greatsword, you can change it into a +1 Maul, and so long as the Pact holds, it's a +1 Maul. Once the Pact is broken, I say it's a +1 Greatsword once again, but the case could be made that having turned it into a +1 Maul, it would stay a +1 Maul.
It doesn't explicitly say you retain the ability to change its form or explicitly say it always retains its original form. I'd rule yes, the default of the ability it takes whatever form you want. I'm not sure the line 'it appears' is specific enough to say you lose the ability to change its form. Given you are locked into this one item and can't summon normal pact weapons while bound to a magic weapon and you may have taken something like improved pact weapon as a invocation you'd think they would want to be more specific if it removed the ability to change your pact weapons form. Because unless you found a really dang good weapon this is more of a penalty to use than a perk.
An interesting interpretation is when you have the Improved Pact Weapon invocation, and you make your pact weapon a magical weapon that doesn't have a +x bonus.
Does the magical weapon also gain the +1 feature from IPW when you summon it?
I don't think it does, but it is a fun rules interpretation.
You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it (see the Weapons section for weapon options). You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
Your pact weapon disappears if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you dismiss the weapon (no action required), or if you die.
You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks.
Yes, you can change your +1 Greatsword into a +1 Maul.
If you have performed the ritual to make the magic weapon your pact weapon, you are not creating it. You are summoning it from the extradimensional space it gets shunted to when you dismiss it. You can only choose the form when you create a pact weapon.
An interesting interpretation is when you have the Improved Pact Weapon invocation, and you make your pact weapon a magical weapon that doesn't have a +x bonus.
Does the magical weapon also gain the +1 feature from IPW when you summon it?
I don't think it does, but it is a fun rules interpretation.
The restriction is only on magic weapons that already grant a bonus to attack and damage rolls. If the magic weapon does not grant any such bonuses, then it gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage
This guy has it. The common way this would be read is: You either create a Pact Weapon from scratch and it’s any form you choose each time it’s created, or it’s an existing weapon that you convert to a Pact Weapon and it is the same every time you create it.
Maybe, but it does not say that anywhere in the description.
And it appears(what people seem to focus on)whenever you create(seems to say you are still creating one) your pact weapon thereafter.
I can see either interpretation working, but it appears is two words that don;t say as much as people seem to want it to. I don't see a large balance issue with allowing them to change it, Maybe there is some specific weapon that breaks it if its bow form or something, but most non legendary items can be any weapon anyways, and most legendarys are intelligent I suspect. So why take the fun from the bladelock over something that really isn't unbalanced, i mean sure occasionally he goes blunt vs skeletons or whatever but that wont change the game.
My issue with letting you change the form of a magic weapon you turned into your pact weapon is what if it had other properties besides a + modifier? Would that carry over too? For example can I turn a Flametongue Longsword into a Flametongue Halberd and have happy times with Polearm Master? Would this possibly be a bit broken?
My issue with letting you change the form of a magic weapon you turned into your pact weapon is what if it had other properties besides a + modifier? Would that carry over too? For example can I turn a Flametongue Longsword into a Flametongue Halberd and have happy times with Polearm Master? Would this possibly be a bit broken?
Flametongue can be on any sword its not just a longsword in 5e. I'm not sure it working with pole arm master is that much worse than a two handed sword, yeah it makes the bonus attack more potent but not game breaking, there are tons of abilities that add damage on each hit already. If you wanted to split the difference you could always limit the special ability to forms it works with, so like flame tongue says any sword, so you want the fire damage it has t be summoned in sword form, you make it into a glaive and its just a magic glaive.
I don't have any problem with special property items changing around and keeping their properties. Limiting them the way MyDudeicus says would be good idea too, that makes perfect sense, and avoids having a Mace of Sharpness or something show up. About the only real way that being able to change the form of a pact weapon could be abused is if it stayed changed after the pact was broken. The implication is that it could, but that would lead to a whole bunch of people lining up to get Warlocks to change the form of their magical weapons they got as treasure into a form they liked better.
Having a Pact Weapon may change the weapons form, but it shouldn't change any of the item's properties. It it required Attunement, it still would, if it's restricted to specific classes, it still would be, so if you get hold of a Holy Avenger, you're out of luck on using that, those are for Paladins only. Most Legendary weapons are Sentient so they are out, no Blackrazor for your Warlock unless the Raven Queen gives it to you personally. A lot of those Legendary weapons also are only +1, and there's no way a Warlock can increase the size of the bonus of an already existing weapon. A cruel DM would give out a Hammer of Thunderbolts. It's a +1 Maul. Without a Belt of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Orge Power, they can't attune it. A really cruel DM would give them the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and tell them they will need either of Belt of Cloud or Storm Giant Strength. Ready for a quest?
Anyone who has a Hammer of Thunderbolts, a set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, a Belt of Cloud or Storm Giant Strength and who wants to attune them and use them deserves to be able to. That's all three of their Attunement slots after all, and without DM fiat, the only part of that set of gear that appears before level 17 is the Gauntlets, which they could have gotten at first level.
It’s interesting how the way one side interprets the rules doesn’t need any special rules and restrictions on how Pact Weapons work, while the other side needs to come up with all of these exceptions to the way they interpret it - ways to stop Oathbows from becoming Oathaxes, Flametounge Swords becoming Flametongue Slings, Maces of Sharpness, how long do the forms change for, limitations…
One thing to consider when trying to understand the written word is to consider how the rest of the paragraph exists in context. If you can read a certain page of text in two different ways, it’s often the method that requires less explanatory power to understand that is often correct.
Regardless, it seems obvious at least that the intention is that you can’t change the form of existing magical items.
Maybe, but it does not say that anywhere in the description.
And it appears(what people seem to focus on)whenever you create(seems to say you are still creating one) your pact weapon thereafter.
I can see either interpretation working, but it appears is two words that don;t say as much as people seem to want it to. I don't see a large balance issue with allowing them to change it, Maybe there is some specific weapon that breaks it if its bow form or something, but most non legendary items can be any weapon anyways, and most legendarys are intelligent I suspect. So why take the fun from the bladelock over something that really isn't unbalanced, i mean sure occasionally he goes blunt vs skeletons or whatever but that wont change the game.
Yes, but if you bond a specific weapon as your pact weapon you are not “creating” a hat one, you are summoning it.
what one paragraph says does not necessarily apply to other paragraphs.
A Pact Weapon created from nothing can take any form specifically not listed. It says Melee weapon in the entry for the Pact Boon, and this is reinforced by the part in Improved Pact Weapon where it says "the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow." No hand crossbow pact weapons.
Your Pact Weapon created from nothing does not give a bonus to hit and damage. That's the other thing that Improved Pact Weapon gives. +1 to hit and damage, and they are careful to mention that this bonus does not stack with an existing bonus on a previously existing weapon.
So then, since we are going to be technical here, does that mean that if you take a pre-existing weapon with a bonus to hit and damage greater than +1 you can't use it as a Pact Weapon?
Here's another one for you. You take a pre-existing magical weapon, you turn it into your Pact Weapon and you "can then dismiss the weapon shunting it into an extradimensional space and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter."
So then, you can indeed take a +1 weapon and turn it into a Pact Weapon. You dismiss it. Since you can only "create" your pact weapon thereafter, that means you can't get that +1 weapon back. As pointed out, you can't summon it. So was the intent that Warlocks were only ever supposed to be able to turn a pre-existing magical weapon into their Pact Weapon and use it until it was dismissed, and never again?
Maybe, but it does not say that anywhere in the description.
And it appears(what people seem to focus on)whenever you create(seems to say you are still creating one) your pact weapon thereafter.
I can see either interpretation working, but it appears is two words that don;t say as much as people seem to want it to. I don't see a large balance issue with allowing them to change it, Maybe there is some specific weapon that breaks it if its bow form or something, but most non legendary items can be any weapon anyways, and most legendarys are intelligent I suspect. So why take the fun from the bladelock over something that really isn't unbalanced, i mean sure occasionally he goes blunt vs skeletons or whatever but that wont change the game.
Yes, but if you bond a specific weapon as your pact weapon you are not “creating” a hat one, you are summoning it.
what one paragraph says does not necessarily apply to other paragraphs.
And yet the paragraph the only one on the ability to bind weapons as pact weapons refers to it as creating the weapon.
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Hey! So me and my DM have been discussing how magic weapons (say +1 weapon) would work for my warlock. If he finds a +1 greatsword and then later decides to turn it into a maul, would the maul have +1 as well or would it just be a maul until he uses an action to turn it back into a greatsword?
Is there anything in the rules that would help figure this out or is there anything you guys have decided on with your DM?
If you mean what I think you mean, that's fundamentally not how Pact of the Blade works. If you pactify the +1 greatsword, then when you would create your pact weapon, instead of creating one, you make the +1 greatsword appear - that is, you can't change the greatsword's form using Pact of the Blade.
"You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest. You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter. You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. The weapon ceases being your pact weapon if you die, if you perform the 1-hour ritual on a different weapon, or if you use a 1-hour ritual to break your bond to it. The weapon appears at your feet if it is in the extradimensional space when the bond breaks."
Is what the pact of the blade tells me. My question is if I transform a +1 great sword into my pact weapon, and then via the pact of the blade want to change it from for example a greatsword to a maul, would the maul then still have the +1 benefit?
Yes, you can change your +1 Greatsword into a +1 Maul.
<Insert clever signature here>
Thanks for the reply! Would you mind explaining it to me in text? I'm just looking for a way to explain it to my DM in a way that makes sense.
You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter.
Bold text is why you can't change its form. The greatsword appears when you create your pact weapon, not a maul.
Ultimately, it's up to your DM, but the way we read the rules at our tables is that you cannot change a magic weapon's form.
For example - you find a +2 greatsword, and make it your pact weapon. Great... your pact weapon is now a +2 greatsword. You can summon or dismiss it all you want.
You cannot turn that greatsword into a maul, or any other weapon. Per the quote above - "and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter."
The closest I've come to that is playing with a DM who allowed summoning the pact weapon in other forms, but without the properties of the magic weapon - ie: your pact weapon is a +2 greatsword. If I summon a spear, it's a standard spear (with pact weapon properties), but no +2.
I'd suggest sorting it out at with your DM.
People keep leaving off the part where it says you get to choose the form of the weapon. I think everyone is clear on the idea that you can do that with a weapon created out of nothing. When you have a pre-existing magical weapon you can turn it into your Pact Weapon. So then, can you choose the form of your new magical weapon? Does it say anywhere that you cannot?
The "Plain English" rule is that when you read over what is said, unless you are told otherwise, you only get what it says, no more, and no less. Would someone mind terribly marking out in bold text the line where it says "You can't change the form of a magical pact weapon"? The only line where I see the word "Can't" is the one that says "You can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way." I don't see it stated that a +1 Greatsword is an Artifact, nor anything that says it is Sentient. The original poster certainly didn't say it was.
Really, the only question is what happens when your Pact Weapon stops being a Pact Weapon. What form is it in now? Nothing says. My guess is that it turns back into it's original form. If you had a +1 Greatsword, you can change it into a +1 Maul, and so long as the Pact holds, it's a +1 Maul. Once the Pact is broken, I say it's a +1 Greatsword once again, but the case could be made that having turned it into a +1 Maul, it would stay a +1 Maul.
<Insert clever signature here>
It doesn't explicitly say you retain the ability to change its form or explicitly say it always retains its original form. I'd rule yes, the default of the ability it takes whatever form you want. I'm not sure the line 'it appears' is specific enough to say you lose the ability to change its form. Given you are locked into this one item and can't summon normal pact weapons while bound to a magic weapon and you may have taken something like improved pact weapon as a invocation you'd think they would want to be more specific if it removed the ability to change your pact weapons form. Because unless you found a really dang good weapon this is more of a penalty to use than a perk.
An interesting interpretation is when you have the Improved Pact Weapon invocation, and you make your pact weapon a magical weapon that doesn't have a +x bonus.
Does the magical weapon also gain the +1 feature from IPW when you summon it?
I don't think it does, but it is a fun rules interpretation.
This guy has it. The common way this would be read is: You either create a Pact Weapon from scratch and it’s any form you choose each time it’s created, or it’s an existing weapon that you convert to a Pact Weapon and it is the same every time you create it.
Maybe, but it does not say that anywhere in the description.
And it appears(what people seem to focus on)whenever you create(seems to say you are still creating one) your pact weapon thereafter.
I can see either interpretation working, but it appears is two words that don;t say as much as people seem to want it to. I don't see a large balance issue with allowing them to change it, Maybe there is some specific weapon that breaks it if its bow form or something, but most non legendary items can be any weapon anyways, and most legendarys are intelligent I suspect. So why take the fun from the bladelock over something that really isn't unbalanced, i mean sure occasionally he goes blunt vs skeletons or whatever but that wont change the game.
My issue with letting you change the form of a magic weapon you turned into your pact weapon is what if it had other properties besides a + modifier? Would that carry over too? For example can I turn a Flametongue Longsword into a Flametongue Halberd and have happy times with Polearm Master? Would this possibly be a bit broken?
Flametongue can be on any sword its not just a longsword in 5e. I'm not sure it working with pole arm master is that much worse than a two handed sword, yeah it makes the bonus attack more potent but not game breaking, there are tons of abilities that add damage on each hit already. If you wanted to split the difference you could always limit the special ability to forms it works with, so like flame tongue says any sword, so you want the fire damage it has t be summoned in sword form, you make it into a glaive and its just a magic glaive.
I don't have any problem with special property items changing around and keeping their properties. Limiting them the way MyDudeicus says would be good idea too, that makes perfect sense, and avoids having a Mace of Sharpness or something show up. About the only real way that being able to change the form of a pact weapon could be abused is if it stayed changed after the pact was broken. The implication is that it could, but that would lead to a whole bunch of people lining up to get Warlocks to change the form of their magical weapons they got as treasure into a form they liked better.
Having a Pact Weapon may change the weapons form, but it shouldn't change any of the item's properties. It it required Attunement, it still would, if it's restricted to specific classes, it still would be, so if you get hold of a Holy Avenger, you're out of luck on using that, those are for Paladins only. Most Legendary weapons are Sentient so they are out, no Blackrazor for your Warlock unless the Raven Queen gives it to you personally. A lot of those Legendary weapons also are only +1, and there's no way a Warlock can increase the size of the bonus of an already existing weapon. A cruel DM would give out a Hammer of Thunderbolts. It's a +1 Maul. Without a Belt of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Orge Power, they can't attune it. A really cruel DM would give them the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and tell them they will need either of Belt of Cloud or Storm Giant Strength. Ready for a quest?
Anyone who has a Hammer of Thunderbolts, a set of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, a Belt of Cloud or Storm Giant Strength and who wants to attune them and use them deserves to be able to. That's all three of their Attunement slots after all, and without DM fiat, the only part of that set of gear that appears before level 17 is the Gauntlets, which they could have gotten at first level.
<Insert clever signature here>
It’s interesting how the way one side interprets the rules doesn’t need any special rules and restrictions on how Pact Weapons work, while the other side needs to come up with all of these exceptions to the way they interpret it - ways to stop Oathbows from becoming Oathaxes, Flametounge Swords becoming Flametongue Slings, Maces of Sharpness, how long do the forms change for, limitations…
One thing to consider when trying to understand the written word is to consider how the rest of the paragraph exists in context. If you can read a certain page of text in two different ways, it’s often the method that requires less explanatory power to understand that is often correct.
Regardless, it seems obvious at least that the intention is that you can’t change the form of existing magical items.
Yes, but if you bond a specific weapon as your pact weapon you are not “creating” a hat one, you are summoning it.
what one paragraph says does not necessarily apply to other paragraphs.
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A Pact Weapon created from nothing can take any form specifically not listed. It says Melee weapon in the entry for the Pact Boon, and this is reinforced by the part in Improved Pact Weapon where it says "the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow." No hand crossbow pact weapons.
Your Pact Weapon created from nothing does not give a bonus to hit and damage. That's the other thing that Improved Pact Weapon gives. +1 to hit and damage, and they are careful to mention that this bonus does not stack with an existing bonus on a previously existing weapon.
So then, since we are going to be technical here, does that mean that if you take a pre-existing weapon with a bonus to hit and damage greater than +1 you can't use it as a Pact Weapon?
<Insert clever signature here>
Here's another one for you. You take a pre-existing magical weapon, you turn it into your Pact Weapon and you "can then dismiss the weapon shunting it into an extradimensional space and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter."
So then, you can indeed take a +1 weapon and turn it into a Pact Weapon. You dismiss it. Since you can only "create" your pact weapon thereafter, that means you can't get that +1 weapon back. As pointed out, you can't summon it. So was the intent that Warlocks were only ever supposed to be able to turn a pre-existing magical weapon into their Pact Weapon and use it until it was dismissed, and never again?
<Insert clever signature here>
And yet the paragraph the only one on the ability to bind weapons as pact weapons refers to it as creating the weapon.