I am trying to create any of the machines from Horizon Zero Dawn. I was going warforged and when he wildshapes into a creature he would be more metal and organic like the machines. I thinking moon druid for maybe 4 lvls, 2 lvl in monk for the great AC boost and other benefits. Then going the rest in Artillerist Artificer for using the cannon as a turret on my back and other benefits for being an artificer.
Um... I suppose that depends on what sort of feedback you are looking for?
As far as flavor and RP goes, it sounds like a great idea and no one can stop you from doing otherwise.
If you are looking to min-max, then you are probably better off saying you have a similar appearance to one of those and going full into a class, Armorer Artificer or Circle of the Moon Druid probably being the most thematic (from what I remember of the game, which isn't much.
And I must say that I would very much like to play a quadruped warforged that shoots lightning now.
Um... I suppose that depends on what sort of feedback you are looking for?
I looking for feedback on will it actually be helpful in combat or is to RP heavy. I want to have a balance so that I can have fun doing more RP and yet be helpful in combat.
If you are looking to min-max, then you are probably better off saying you have a similar appearance to one of those and going full into a class, Armorer Artificer or Circle of the Moon Druid probably being the most thematic (from what I remember of the game, which isn't much.
I know that going into a full caster is always better then multiclassing for spells. However, I have not cared for spellcasters that much. But being a mobile artillery piece sounds like a lot of fun for hit and run attacks. I am going to stick with the artillerist artificer because that would allow me to mount the cannons to my back while in wildshape. Though the armor artificer did look tempting.
I just don't know if I want to go 15 lvls of Artillerist Artificer, 2 monk, and 3 moon druid.
or go 9 moon druid, 2 monk, and 9 artillerist artificer.
It is tough because they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I don't know if one is better then the other?
It is tough because they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I don't know if one is better then the other?
Indeed. And speaking of weaknesses, I believe you use the beast's stat block while in Wild Shape. With that in mind, I would argue dropping Monk entirely since your reasoning for that was for the AC boost. Then I would recommend at least 11th level for Artificer and 8th level for Druid. Even in wild shape, having a utility spell attached to Spell Storing Item would be helpful and 8th level for the flight speed wild shape. Swooping through a Fog Cloud as a Giant Eagle with a flamethrower is also pretty picturesque. Don't know if that fits your vision or not, but I found it to be amusing.
And speaking of weaknesses, I believe you use the beast's stat block while in Wild Shape. With that in mind, I would argue dropping Monk entirely since your reasoning for that was for the AC boost.
yes, you only use the physical stats from the beast, you get to keep all mental stats. So a dip in monk would give a lot to AC, however, do you know if it stacks with natural armor or not? I also like the increase in movement speed, but I think flight does out weight that boon.
That 1 lvl dip in monk gives a lot boons, this is a tough decision?
Then I would recommend at least 11th level for Artificer and 8th level for Druid. Even in wild shape, having a utility spell attached to Spell Storing Item would be helpful and 8th level for the flight speed wild shape. Swooping through a Fog Cloud as a Giant Eagle with a flamethrower is also pretty picturesque. Don't know if that fits your vision or not, but I found it to be amusing.
If I stick with just artificer and druid, then I would go 11 artificer and 9 druid to get the CR 3 wildshape, which gives me giant scorpion (which apparently is very deadly).
However, do you think having two cannons doing 3d8 each at lvl 15 artificer is a better boon the getting flight and CR 3 wildshape?
It does fit my vision and I like the idea of a giant eagle with a flamethrower do fly-by attacks with the mobility feat. that or a giant scorpion holding two enemies and then shooting them with a flamethrower.
Also his name is going to be WarFrame, and he is a warforged trying to create something military and organic. Not sure still hammering out his background, but that is why he is looking into creatures because of the predatory instincts and strengths that they possess.
And speaking of weaknesses, I believe you use the beast's stat block while in Wild Shape. With that in mind, I would argue dropping Monk entirely since your reasoning for that was for the AC boost.
yes, you only use the physical stats from the beast, you get to keep all mental stats. So a dip in monk would give a lot to AC, however, do you know if it stacks with natural armor or not?
It does not. You can calculate AC as Natural Armor + Dex or as Wisdom + Dex, whichever is greater, but the two can't be combined.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
And speaking of weaknesses, I believe you use the beast's stat block while in Wild Shape. With that in mind, I would argue dropping Monk entirely since your reasoning for that was for the AC boost.
yes, you only use the physical stats from the beast, you get to keep all mental stats. So a dip in monk would give a lot to AC, however, do you know if it stacks with natural armor or not? I also like the increase in movement speed, but I think flight does out weight that boon.
That 1 lvl dip in monk gives a lot boons, this is a tough decision?
Sorry, I was off. I forgot that Monks use Wisdom with their unarmored bonus. That should work if you stack wisdom (though ultimately up to DM's discretion, of course). As for the movement, without look through stat blocks, I believe most will be equal to or have a greater speed, particularly if you go the flight speed route.
I suppose the rest is up to what kind of role you are going for. The CR3 for a 9th level Moon Druid would probably lean towards the tank side with the wild shape buffer and potentially a Protector pylon, but the 15th level Artillerist would certainly be more DPS than a Druid heavy build. 8d8 for a bonus action over an hour for two spell slots that you have stated you wont use otherwise is a very convincing argument.
Worth noting is that very few games go to 20th level, so planning on 20th level is generally inadvisable.
I love HZD. If I were you, I'd ask your DM to allow you to assume a more Machine-like default appearance. Perhaps your warforged is a Watcher in shape - Watchers are (very) roughly lizardfolk-esque. The Artillerist's cannon being mounted to your back is technically a power boost, but a good DM should hopefully be willing to flex a bit, especially if you're willing to take a few penalties in turn for the aesthetic.
I would not bother with levels of Moon Druid, though. Not unless you're going to take it all the way to the top. Moony's combat wildshape falls off VERY fast after Tier 1 play, and only really kicks in again when you get the elemental wildshape forms at 10th level. Every single level you give to another class makes Moon Druid significantly weaker. The Monk dip is accomplishing little, and frankly the warforged Integrated Protection trait is very HZD to me: you can integrate armor into your body exactly the same way the machines do, armoring up to protect delicate internal systems.
Straight Artillerist with a more Machine-like character would likely be my choice for playing a Machine. Trying to shove shapeshifting mechanics and unarmored defense into the character will dilute your combat abilities enough that you likely won't feel like a powerful combat Machine, I'd avoid the hassle. Heh, I admit, I'd rather play a Machine hunter, but those builds are much easier to do and involve less fiddling. Hopefully your DM is okay with you getting a little creative in chasing this, and remember - it's always more fun to do "inspired by" than "cloned from". Have some fun with it, take inspiration from HZD's Machines to create your own unique take.
I love HZD. If I were you, I'd ask your DM to allow you to assume a more Machine-like default appearance. Perhaps your warforged is a Watcher in shape - Watchers are (very) roughly lizardfolk-esque. The Artillerist's cannon being mounted to your back is technically a power boost, but a good DM should hopefully be willing to flex a bit, especially if you're willing to take a few penalties in turn for the aesthetic.
My wildshapes will be more machine like and looking. I don't know if my DM will justify looking more lizardfolk-ish, but I want my character to be able to use tools outside of combat. He is trying to analyze nature to design a "warframe" around the strengths of nature's predators.
I would not bother with levels of Moon Druid, though. Not unless you're going to take it all the way to the top. Moony's combat wildshape falls off VERY fast after Tier 1 play, and only really kicks in again when you get the elemental wildshape forms at 10th level. Every single level you give to another class makes Moon Druid significantly weaker. The Monk dip is accomplishing little, and frankly the warforged Integrated Protection trait is very HZD to me: you can integrate armor into your body exactly the same way the machines do, armoring up to protect delicate internal systems.
Part of the wildshape is the utilitarian aspect and RP. I do understand that the wildshape becomes less effective with less levels of moon druid taken, but my DPS will be from the artillerist artificer. The wildshape will also help with movement and inspiration. If I could make my character change shape and keep the integrated protection, I agree that would definitely be more HZD. But there is no way to get the ability to change shape, unless you go higher levels and get shapechange spell. But even then you still struggle with AC being an issue.
Hopefully your DM is okay with you getting a little creative in chasing this, and remember - it's always more fun to do "inspired by" than "cloned from". Have some fun with it, take inspiration from HZD's Machines to create your own unique take.
I am trying to work with my DM to help me pursue this RP and character creation. I also agree that you can have more fun when something inspires you, instead of cloning it. Besides the show Zoids was also an inspiration and that is mainly why I like the mounted cannon, mixes both creatures and large wpns that allow for max mobility. Also sniping with a cannon from 280 feet away is going to be fun.
I think the heart of the matter here is that you really want to change forms as a part of your character concept, but using wild shape to do so makes you objectively weaker and locks away a good bit of your power. Does it really fit your concept if your shape changes make you weaker? That you will make the most difference to the party when you're not a robot dinosaur?
The alternative is to just fluff it. Just say you change shape. Go nuts with it, you can say whatever you want as long as your mechanics don't change. This would allow you to be a much more effective character because there is next to zero synergy between druid and artificer.
Also, note that armorer can shoot frickin lightning from whatever part of your body you want. That's basically already a mounted artillery cannon in my book. Hell, any ranged spell can be described as a shot from your body artillery.
I would recommend that you not take class features so literally. You don't need to be a druid to describe yourself as changing shape. You don't need to be an artillerist to shoot laser beams from a mounted cannon on your back. When designing a character it's fun to try to put together these convoluted multiclasses, but when you're actually playing it's 90% just how you describe yourself.
Thankyou for all the input and ideas to focus on more fluff and description to allow for my concept to come alive without destroying the mechanics.
@Scatterbraind and Yurei1453
I like the idea of being more descriptive in making my character change into an animal form and cast spells that will look like "mounted wpns" firing from the creature or swords being a creatures claws or bite.
Sadly my DM is not willing to allow the RP changes, therefore, I will being going as a warforged moon druid to get the idea of being a mechanical creature of death and destruction. Again thankyou for all the input and ideas.
My Advice would have been to just play artillerist. Make your Character somebody like Aloy that can control machines for a time and flavor your different cannons kind of like certain beasts because most of the machine beasts would either be to high CR for you to turn into anyway and/or would use weapons that you can't really replicate. Your spells could be flavored similarly to Aloy's different weapons and gadgets. That's kind of the best way to mimic Zero Dawn with an artificer.
As for Moon Druid. Most of the lower power machine beasts might be copy-able Since most of them don't really have the lazer weapons and all of that. Except for some of the Watchers (which are basically raptors. not sure where lizard folk came from in regard to them).
are the magical attacks of the moon druid wildshape at lvl 6 really important or not that good?
If that is your primary form of attacking, I would argue that it is required. That is that particular path's way of overcoming resistances, with spell selection being a less effective but still present option.
I want to have a balance so that I can have fun doing more RP and yet be helpful in combat.
That is the challenge almost all of the time. IMO people who stress RP often have trouble being helpful in combat (or pretty much any other aspect of the game). So, I think, it really depends on your group. If it is all heavy RP then go for it because odds are that none of the characters are particularly helpful in combat but that's part of the group's flavor as each character is RPing divergent actions that create rather unique situations.
OTOH, if the group is not heavily RP then pick one thing and do it well - because that's what everyone else is doing and being the lone RPer will actually be a drag on the group and not that helpful. Being the Tabaxi that is easily distracted and rushes into situations because they can't control the urge to go explore or the Leeroy Jenkins of a group gets old really fast. And being a quadruped mechanical beast with a turret is less helpful than a full class artificer with a turret. Might be entertaining for you but will it really help the group?
IMO you should base your decision not on the input from the forums but on the composition of your group and what it is that they place value on.
That was part of the discussion Therigar, finding out if the mechanics of a character build that I want to make would allow me to be helpful in battle or just fizzle out and be cannon fodder. I have little knowledge with 5e, so asking these questions to hash out details and rules about the mechanics will give me a better understanding.
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I am trying to create any of the machines from Horizon Zero Dawn. I was going warforged and when he wildshapes into a creature he would be more metal and organic like the machines. I thinking moon druid for maybe 4 lvls, 2 lvl in monk for the great AC boost and other benefits. Then going the rest in Artillerist Artificer for using the cannon as a turret on my back and other benefits for being an artificer.
Any feedback would be helpful?
Um... I suppose that depends on what sort of feedback you are looking for?
As far as flavor and RP goes, it sounds like a great idea and no one can stop you from doing otherwise.
If you are looking to min-max, then you are probably better off saying you have a similar appearance to one of those and going full into a class, Armorer Artificer or Circle of the Moon Druid probably being the most thematic (from what I remember of the game, which isn't much.
And I must say that I would very much like to play a quadruped warforged that shoots lightning now.
I looking for feedback on will it actually be helpful in combat or is to RP heavy. I want to have a balance so that I can have fun doing more RP and yet be helpful in combat.
I know that going into a full caster is always better then multiclassing for spells. However, I have not cared for spellcasters that much. But being a mobile artillery piece sounds like a lot of fun for hit and run attacks. I am going to stick with the artillerist artificer because that would allow me to mount the cannons to my back while in wildshape. Though the armor artificer did look tempting.
I just don't know if I want to go 15 lvls of Artillerist Artificer, 2 monk, and 3 moon druid.
or go 9 moon druid, 2 monk, and 9 artillerist artificer.
It is tough because they both have their strengths and weaknesses, but I don't know if one is better then the other?
Indeed. And speaking of weaknesses, I believe you use the beast's stat block while in Wild Shape. With that in mind, I would argue dropping Monk entirely since your reasoning for that was for the AC boost. Then I would recommend at least 11th level for Artificer and 8th level for Druid. Even in wild shape, having a utility spell attached to Spell Storing Item would be helpful and 8th level for the flight speed wild shape. Swooping through a Fog Cloud as a Giant Eagle with a flamethrower is also pretty picturesque. Don't know if that fits your vision or not, but I found it to be amusing.
yes, you only use the physical stats from the beast, you get to keep all mental stats. So a dip in monk would give a lot to AC, however, do you know if it stacks with natural armor or not? I also like the increase in movement speed, but I think flight does out weight that boon.
That 1 lvl dip in monk gives a lot boons, this is a tough decision?
If I stick with just artificer and druid, then I would go 11 artificer and 9 druid to get the CR 3 wildshape, which gives me giant scorpion (which apparently is very deadly).
However, do you think having two cannons doing 3d8 each at lvl 15 artificer is a better boon the getting flight and CR 3 wildshape?
It does fit my vision and I like the idea of a giant eagle with a flamethrower do fly-by attacks with the mobility feat. that or a giant scorpion holding two enemies and then shooting them with a flamethrower.
Also his name is going to be WarFrame, and he is a warforged trying to create something military and organic. Not sure still hammering out his background, but that is why he is looking into creatures because of the predatory instincts and strengths that they possess.
It does not. You can calculate AC as Natural Armor + Dex or as Wisdom + Dex, whichever is greater, but the two can't be combined.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Sorry, I was off. I forgot that Monks use Wisdom with their unarmored bonus. That should work if you stack wisdom (though ultimately up to DM's discretion, of course). As for the movement, without look through stat blocks, I believe most will be equal to or have a greater speed, particularly if you go the flight speed route.
I suppose the rest is up to what kind of role you are going for. The CR3 for a 9th level Moon Druid would probably lean towards the tank side with the wild shape buffer and potentially a Protector pylon, but the 15th level Artillerist would certainly be more DPS than a Druid heavy build. 8d8 for a bonus action over an hour for two spell slots that you have stated you wont use otherwise is a very convincing argument.
Worth noting is that very few games go to 20th level, so planning on 20th level is generally inadvisable.
I love HZD. If I were you, I'd ask your DM to allow you to assume a more Machine-like default appearance. Perhaps your warforged is a Watcher in shape - Watchers are (very) roughly lizardfolk-esque. The Artillerist's cannon being mounted to your back is technically a power boost, but a good DM should hopefully be willing to flex a bit, especially if you're willing to take a few penalties in turn for the aesthetic.
I would not bother with levels of Moon Druid, though. Not unless you're going to take it all the way to the top. Moony's combat wildshape falls off VERY fast after Tier 1 play, and only really kicks in again when you get the elemental wildshape forms at 10th level. Every single level you give to another class makes Moon Druid significantly weaker. The Monk dip is accomplishing little, and frankly the warforged Integrated Protection trait is very HZD to me: you can integrate armor into your body exactly the same way the machines do, armoring up to protect delicate internal systems.
Straight Artillerist with a more Machine-like character would likely be my choice for playing a Machine. Trying to shove shapeshifting mechanics and unarmored defense into the character will dilute your combat abilities enough that you likely won't feel like a powerful combat Machine, I'd avoid the hassle. Heh, I admit, I'd rather play a Machine hunter, but those builds are much easier to do and involve less fiddling. Hopefully your DM is okay with you getting a little creative in chasing this, and remember - it's always more fun to do "inspired by" than "cloned from". Have some fun with it, take inspiration from HZD's Machines to create your own unique take.
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I do understand that but I like having a rough idea of where this character is going.
My wildshapes will be more machine like and looking. I don't know if my DM will justify looking more lizardfolk-ish, but I want my character to be able to use tools outside of combat. He is trying to analyze nature to design a "warframe" around the strengths of nature's predators.
Part of the wildshape is the utilitarian aspect and RP. I do understand that the wildshape becomes less effective with less levels of moon druid taken, but my DPS will be from the artillerist artificer. The wildshape will also help with movement and inspiration. If I could make my character change shape and keep the integrated protection, I agree that would definitely be more HZD. But there is no way to get the ability to change shape, unless you go higher levels and get shapechange spell. But even then you still struggle with AC being an issue.
I am trying to work with my DM to help me pursue this RP and character creation. I also agree that you can have more fun when something inspires you, instead of cloning it. Besides the show Zoids was also an inspiration and that is mainly why I like the mounted cannon, mixes both creatures and large wpns that allow for max mobility. Also sniping with a cannon from 280 feet away is going to be fun.
I think the heart of the matter here is that you really want to change forms as a part of your character concept, but using wild shape to do so makes you objectively weaker and locks away a good bit of your power. Does it really fit your concept if your shape changes make you weaker? That you will make the most difference to the party when you're not a robot dinosaur?
The alternative is to just fluff it. Just say you change shape. Go nuts with it, you can say whatever you want as long as your mechanics don't change. This would allow you to be a much more effective character because there is next to zero synergy between druid and artificer.
Also, note that armorer can shoot frickin lightning from whatever part of your body you want. That's basically already a mounted artillery cannon in my book. Hell, any ranged spell can be described as a shot from your body artillery.
I would recommend that you not take class features so literally. You don't need to be a druid to describe yourself as changing shape. You don't need to be an artillerist to shoot laser beams from a mounted cannon on your back. When designing a character it's fun to try to put together these convoluted multiclasses, but when you're actually playing it's 90% just how you describe yourself.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Thankyou for all the input and ideas to focus on more fluff and description to allow for my concept to come alive without destroying the mechanics.
@Scatterbraind and Yurei1453
I like the idea of being more descriptive in making my character change into an animal form and cast spells that will look like "mounted wpns" firing from the creature or swords being a creatures claws or bite.
Sadly my DM is not willing to allow the RP changes, therefore, I will being going as a warforged moon druid to get the idea of being a mechanical creature of death and destruction. Again thankyou for all the input and ideas.
My Advice would have been to just play artillerist. Make your Character somebody like Aloy that can control machines for a time and flavor your different cannons kind of like certain beasts because most of the machine beasts would either be to high CR for you to turn into anyway and/or would use weapons that you can't really replicate. Your spells could be flavored similarly to Aloy's different weapons and gadgets. That's kind of the best way to mimic Zero Dawn with an artificer.
As for Moon Druid. Most of the lower power machine beasts might be copy-able Since most of them don't really have the lazer weapons and all of that. Except for some of the Watchers (which are basically raptors. not sure where lizard folk came from in regard to them).
I actually prefer the machine beasts over being Aloy. I am using the moon druid to take the idea of the machine beasts to become a machine like beast.
are the magical attacks of the moon druid wildshape at lvl 6 really important or not that good?
If that is your primary form of attacking, I would argue that it is required. That is that particular path's way of overcoming resistances, with spell selection being a less effective but still present option.
That is the challenge almost all of the time. IMO people who stress RP often have trouble being helpful in combat (or pretty much any other aspect of the game). So, I think, it really depends on your group. If it is all heavy RP then go for it because odds are that none of the characters are particularly helpful in combat but that's part of the group's flavor as each character is RPing divergent actions that create rather unique situations.
OTOH, if the group is not heavily RP then pick one thing and do it well - because that's what everyone else is doing and being the lone RPer will actually be a drag on the group and not that helpful. Being the Tabaxi that is easily distracted and rushes into situations because they can't control the urge to go explore or the Leeroy Jenkins of a group gets old really fast. And being a quadruped mechanical beast with a turret is less helpful than a full class artificer with a turret. Might be entertaining for you but will it really help the group?
IMO you should base your decision not on the input from the forums but on the composition of your group and what it is that they place value on.
That was part of the discussion Therigar, finding out if the mechanics of a character build that I want to make would allow me to be helpful in battle or just fizzle out and be cannon fodder. I have little knowledge with 5e, so asking these questions to hash out details and rules about the mechanics will give me a better understanding.