Both the Steel Defender and the Homunculus Servant have the following paragraph where they're introduced in EBRLW.
In combat, the [steel defender]/[homunculus] shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take the action in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action.
Escaping a Grapple. A grappled creature can use its action to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your Strength (Athletics) check.
And there are other spell effects, monster abilities, or other generic common sense things that RAW neither the Steel Defender nor the Homunculus Servant can do if it would cost them their action. Such as put themselves out if they are on fire.
Am I reading this too broadly or does "In combat" only really apply to the actions listed in this section: "Actions In Combat."
Regardless I don't think many DMs would rule that a Steel Defender can't try to escape a grapple, even without commands from the Artificer. Once grappled it literally can't benefit from the Dodge action anyway since it's movement is reduced to 0.
The other side of this is that being unable to escape themselves doesn't prevent them from being rescued from a grapple... but having them unable to even try to escape seems unduly harsh.
The rules for the Steel Defender and the Homunculus, listing specific actions the creature can take and forbidding anything else on the list, was an attempt to pre-empt players attempting to hornswoggle action economy with the critter by using their bonus action to command it to do just about literally anything another PC could on their turn.
Artificers in general do not play well if the DM holds strictly to RAW. They're a class specifically designed to think outside the box and solve problems through inventiveness and creativity. An artificer under a strict DM who disallows anything that isn't explicitly laid out in the books is an artificer that is going to be absolutely miserable, and should likely switch to a different game.
well if we follow the specific overrules general rule guidelines then they can attempt to escape the grapple as an action because those options are allowed only when the conditions are met I.e. you can't put your self out if you are not on fire to begin with.
I've seen the specific beats general argument in precisely the opposite direction though with regards to spell-storing item.
While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spell's effect from it, using your spellcasting ability modifier. If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate.
An action (produce the spell's effect) only allowed to a creature when the condition (holding the spell storing item) is met. I've been told that the specific restrictions on the Steel Defender's/Homunculus Servant's action overule the general scenario of when an item grants a creature actions.
So my understanding was that the the Steel Defender's/Homunculus Servant's action restrictions applied regardless of specific conditions.
In other words that "specific creature" overruled "specific conditions" that could apply to "general creatures."
I do understand that it's up to DMs to decide and they are free to rule differently. It's just frustrating to so often have to rely on that particularly when I'm still in the hypothetical stage of playing D&D than in the actual. It's not yet dissuading me away from 5e, but it is an annoyance nonetheless.
I also get that a PC with a creature controlled via bonus action more or less gives the player two actions per round so some restrictions on that 2nd action are necessary. It's just the hard limit on "you only get these actions" instead of "you can't do the following actions" offers significantly less freedom overall and I'm not sure Wizards of the Coast realized just how much or how silly these restrictions get.
I do understand that it's up to DMs to decide and they are free to rule differently. It's just frustrating to so often have to rely on that particularly when I'm still in the hypothetical stage of playing D&D than in the actual. It's not yet dissuading me away from 5e, but it is an annoyance nonetheless.
I don't think there's any point to getting upset about an issue you haven't even come across in real play. I DM for a level 7 Battle Smith and the issue hasn't come up a single time.
This thing is a defender, not a fully autonomous PC. 90% of the time if you just 1) park it by whatever enemy your allies are engaged with, 2) either attack or Dodge, and 3) make use of the Reaction, you are getting more mileage out of your class feature than most other classes get out of theirs.
Keep in mind that if your DM is attacking/grappling your steel defender, you are winning. Those are attacks and grapples not made against actual PCs. If you consider the amount of actions it takes for a DM to kill a steel defender and then consider the cost to you - a single level one spell slot - the efficiency of that is insane. No level one spell can give you a return like that. This class feature is just fine as is.
I do understand that it's up to DMs to decide and they are free to rule differently. It's just frustrating to so often have to rely on that particularly when I'm still in the hypothetical stage of playing D&D than in the actual. It's not yet dissuading me away from 5e, but it is an annoyance nonetheless.
I don't think there's any point to getting upset about an issue you haven't even come across in real play. I DM for a level 7 Battle Smith and the issue hasn't come up a single time.
This thing is a defender, not a fully autonomous PC. 90% of the time if you just 1) park it by whatever enemy your allies are engaged with, 2) either attack or Dodge, and 3) make use of the Reaction, you are getting more mileage out of your class feature than most other classes get out of theirs.
Keep in mind that if your DM is attacking/grappling your steel defender, you are winning. Those are attacks and grapples not made against actual PCs. If you consider the amount of actions it takes for a DM to kill a steel defender and then consider the cost to you - a single level one spell slot - the efficiency of that is insane. No level one spell can give you a return like that. This class feature is just fine as is.
You make some good points here but It's not the Steel Defender I have any concerns over. I included it here because it has the same action restrictions as the Homunculus Servant and I wanted to be sure I was interpreting the rules correctly.
The Steel Defender is built for melee. It being in melee is good. Yes.
The Homunculus Servant is not built built for melee. With a lower AC than the defender, 1/3 the hp, no melee attacks options within its statblock and its 30 foot attack range that most creatures can cross within a single turn.
And I get that attacks against the HS are also not attacks against the rest of the party.
I'm well aware of the pointlessness in worrying about hypothetical situations. However recognizing that fact has not stopped my brain from delving deep into the valley of "what if" from time to time.
I'm also not arguing that the mechanics themselves are unbalanced or unfair here. The Homunculus Servant is meant to be different than the Steel Defender.
It's just conceptually weird that these creatures have no means of struggling to escape being grappled, even if expressly commanded by their creator to do so. It's kind of the D&D equivalent to a roomba getting caught over some errant wires in the middle of doing it's vacuuming. Or a dog trying to go through a doorway with a big stick in its mouth, except to me at least those situations make a little more sense. And if that makes sense for or enhances your D&D experience then great. I'm not fond of it currently as it doesn't jive with a specific character concept I have in my head.
Maybe I'm just whining here, I don't know. I found this intersection of the rules really strange and I wanted to point it out. Hence the thread.
well if we follow the specific overrules general rule guidelines then they can attempt to escape the grapple as an action because those options are allowed only when the conditions are met I.e. you can't put your self out if you are not on fire to begin with.
I've seen the specific beats general argument in precisely the opposite direction though with regards to spell-storing item.
While holding the object, a creature can take an action to produce the spell's effect from it, using your spellcasting ability modifier. If the spell requires concentration, the creature must concentrate.
An action (produce the spell's effect) only allowed to a creature when the condition (holding the spell storing item) is met. I've been told that the specific restrictions on the Steel Defender's/Homunculus Servant's action overule the general scenario of when an item grants a creature actions.
So my understanding was that the the Steel Defender's/Homunculus Servant's action restrictions applied regardless of specific conditions.
In other words that "specific creature" overruled "specific conditions" that could apply to "general creatures."
I do understand that it's up to DMs to decide and they are free to rule differently. It's just frustrating to so often have to rely on that particularly when I'm still in the hypothetical stage of playing D&D than in the actual. It's not yet dissuading me away from 5e, but it is an annoyance nonetheless.
I also get that a PC with a creature controlled via bonus action more or less gives the player two actions per round so some restrictions on that 2nd action are necessary. It's just the hard limit on "you only get these actions" instead of "you can't do the following actions" offers significantly less freedom overall and I'm not sure Wizards of the Coast realized just how much or how silly these restrictions get.
I think I have figured this out. Under the heading "Actions in Combat" (pg. 192 PHB), there is a series of subheadings that name each type of defined action that you can take in combat. These subheadings are Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Ready, Search, and Use Object. Of these listed actions, a Steel Defender or Homunculus Servant can use Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, and Search with the action in their stat block filling in for their Attack or Spell-like ability. You will notice however that grapple and escaping a grapple do not appear anywhere on this list. I believe this means two maybe three things.
1. The only actions that a Steel Defender or Homunculus Servant cannot use are the Ready and Use Object actions. This unfortunately means that they can in fact not use a Spell-Storing Item or any magic items that require an action to activate. The inability to ready an action, however, is not nearly as unfortunate as both the Steel Defender and Homunculus Servant have more useful things to do with their reactions.
2. That since escaping from a grapple does not use either the Ready or Use Object actions, both the Steel Defender and Homunculus Servant can in fact escape from a grapple. Also, since the rules for escaping a grapple are "detailed elsewhere in the rules," they do not invoke the second paragraph after "Actions in Combat" which says, "When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure." In effect, attempting to escape a grapple (or any imposed condition) is a perfectly reasonable and (maybe more importantly) allowable by RAW action for any creature to take.
3. A Steel Defender since they have a melee weapon attack in their stat block can attempt to grapple another creature. This conclusion is not as definitively spelled out in the rules, but since the Steel Defender's Force-Empowered Rend is a melee weapon attack, and a grapple is a special melee attack, I would rule it as allowable by RAI. Also, how else would a Steel Defender pull someone off the battlefield and to safety if they cannot not grapple someone?
Even more hysterically, the Steel Defender could counter a grapple with their own grapple attempt. Now the foe who thought they could drag your metal minion out of the way finds themselves with a speed of zero. Thus, they cannot move your creature and must spend their own action on finding a way out.
Bit of a necro post here but my mind came back to this issue today and I stumbled on what I think is a reasonable houserule. Rather than outright preventing a Homunculus Servant or a Steel defender from taking those actions typically available to a creature but not defined as available to them (such as escaping a grapple, using an item, or using a magic item, etc)
Instead any commands to perform actions outside of that list will take the Artificer's action to command them instead of their bonus action. This would reflect a more complex and nuanced commands to describe something for how it can accomplish something it wasn't necessarily preprogrammed to do.
So it'd effectively change the wording to this:
In combat, the [steel defender]/[homunculus] shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take the action in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action. The [steel defender]/[homunculus] can perform other actions on its turn provided you take an action on your turn command it to do so.
I feel like this compromise would respect the developer's wishes to keep the action economy under control and still allow players to come up with creative and situational methods to use the Homunuculus Servant/Steel Defender on the fly without hard flat shutdowns that kind of ruin fun in the moment.
A bit of topic Necro but unless I'm missing something the Homunculus Servant has no restrictions on the action that it can be commanded to take.
"In combat, the homunculus shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. If you are incapacitated, the homunculus can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge." (quote pulled from DnDBeyond) and in fact the Steel Defender now has similar language.
Perhaps there has been a errata since this thread was created?
Which implies to me that yes, a homunculus or steel defender can be commanded to ready an action (or in fact use an object if there was one that it was capable of holding) or per this discussion to try to escape a grapple (though as others have noted - if something is grappling your servant you have probably won the action economy game and far better the thing you can make afresh the next day for free than a fellow PC be grappled)
There hasn't only been an errata, there has been Tashas which reworked both those creatures so they can do stuff like escape a grapple or putting out themselfs when on fire.
Yeah I think the intent was originally that only their basic actions were restricted, and so any actions added due to special conditions (like being grappled) would still be gained as options as normal.
The normal rule is that specific beats general, but the problem was that the way the rule was originally written made it unclear which was the more specific rule (the Homunculus/Steel Defender rules, or being grappled). Glad they fixed this, though it's how I always played it anyway. 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Both the Steel Defender and the Homunculus Servant have the following paragraph where they're introduced in EBRLW.
Rules about escaping a grapple:
And there are other spell effects, monster abilities, or other generic common sense things that RAW neither the Steel Defender nor the Homunculus Servant can do if it would cost them their action. Such as put themselves out if they are on fire.
Am I reading this too broadly or does "In combat" only really apply to the actions listed in this section: "Actions In Combat."
Regardless I don't think many DMs would rule that a Steel Defender can't try to escape a grapple, even without commands from the Artificer. Once grappled it literally can't benefit from the Dodge action anyway since it's movement is reduced to 0.
The other side of this is that being unable to escape themselves doesn't prevent them from being rescued from a grapple... but having them unable to even try to escape seems unduly harsh.
The rules for the Steel Defender and the Homunculus, listing specific actions the creature can take and forbidding anything else on the list, was an attempt to pre-empt players attempting to hornswoggle action economy with the critter by using their bonus action to command it to do just about literally anything another PC could on their turn.
Artificers in general do not play well if the DM holds strictly to RAW. They're a class specifically designed to think outside the box and solve problems through inventiveness and creativity. An artificer under a strict DM who disallows anything that isn't explicitly laid out in the books is an artificer that is going to be absolutely miserable, and should likely switch to a different game.
Please do not contact or message me.
I've seen the specific beats general argument in precisely the opposite direction though with regards to spell-storing item.
An action (produce the spell's effect) only allowed to a creature when the condition (holding the spell storing item) is met. I've been told that the specific restrictions on the Steel Defender's/Homunculus Servant's action overule the general scenario of when an item grants a creature actions.
Otherwise several magic items that grant creatures the option to use an action to activate the item would also be possible, since "Use Magic Item" is not a generically defined action in 5e. Yet I've seen tweets that implied that said magic items that require actions could not be used by Steel Defender/Homunculus Servant.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1207431466277208064?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1207431466277208064&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sageadvice.eu%2F2020%2F01%2F05%2Fshouldnt-there-be-a-way-for-an-artificer-to-install-an-infusion-on-their-steel-defender%2F
So my understanding was that the the Steel Defender's/Homunculus Servant's action restrictions applied regardless of specific conditions.
In other words that "specific creature" overruled "specific conditions" that could apply to "general creatures."
I do understand that it's up to DMs to decide and they are free to rule differently. It's just frustrating to so often have to rely on that particularly when I'm still in the hypothetical stage of playing D&D than in the actual. It's not yet dissuading me away from 5e, but it is an annoyance nonetheless.
I also get that a PC with a creature controlled via bonus action more or less gives the player two actions per round so some restrictions on that 2nd action are necessary. It's just the hard limit on "you only get these actions" instead of "you can't do the following actions" offers significantly less freedom overall and I'm not sure Wizards of the Coast realized just how much or how silly these restrictions get.
I don't think there's any point to getting upset about an issue you haven't even come across in real play. I DM for a level 7 Battle Smith and the issue hasn't come up a single time.
This thing is a defender, not a fully autonomous PC. 90% of the time if you just 1) park it by whatever enemy your allies are engaged with, 2) either attack or Dodge, and 3) make use of the Reaction, you are getting more mileage out of your class feature than most other classes get out of theirs.
Keep in mind that if your DM is attacking/grappling your steel defender, you are winning. Those are attacks and grapples not made against actual PCs. If you consider the amount of actions it takes for a DM to kill a steel defender and then consider the cost to you - a single level one spell slot - the efficiency of that is insane. No level one spell can give you a return like that. This class feature is just fine as is.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You make some good points here but It's not the Steel Defender I have any concerns over. I included it here because it has the same action restrictions as the Homunculus Servant and I wanted to be sure I was interpreting the rules correctly.
The Steel Defender is built for melee. It being in melee is good. Yes.
The Homunculus Servant is not built built for melee. With a lower AC than the defender, 1/3 the hp, no melee attacks options within its statblock and its 30 foot attack range that most creatures can cross within a single turn.
And I get that attacks against the HS are also not attacks against the rest of the party.
I'm well aware of the pointlessness in worrying about hypothetical situations. However recognizing that fact has not stopped my brain from delving deep into the valley of "what if" from time to time.
I'm also not arguing that the mechanics themselves are unbalanced or unfair here. The Homunculus Servant is meant to be different than the Steel Defender.
It's just conceptually weird that these creatures have no means of struggling to escape being grappled, even if expressly commanded by their creator to do so. It's kind of the D&D equivalent to a roomba getting caught over some errant wires in the middle of doing it's vacuuming. Or a dog trying to go through a doorway with a big stick in its mouth, except to me at least those situations make a little more sense. And if that makes sense for or enhances your D&D experience then great. I'm not fond of it currently as it doesn't jive with a specific character concept I have in my head.
Maybe I'm just whining here, I don't know. I found this intersection of the rules really strange and I wanted to point it out. Hence the thread.
It doesn't have to be anything more than that.
I think I have figured this out. Under the heading "Actions in Combat" (pg. 192 PHB), there is a series of subheadings that name each type of defined action that you can take in combat. These subheadings are Attack, Cast a Spell, Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, Ready, Search, and Use Object. Of these listed actions, a Steel Defender or Homunculus Servant can use Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Help, Hide, and Search with the action in their stat block filling in for their Attack or Spell-like ability. You will notice however that grapple and escaping a grapple do not appear anywhere on this list. I believe this means two maybe three things.
1. The only actions that a Steel Defender or Homunculus Servant cannot use are the Ready and Use Object actions. This unfortunately means that they can in fact not use a Spell-Storing Item or any magic items that require an action to activate. The inability to ready an action, however, is not nearly as unfortunate as both the Steel Defender and Homunculus Servant have more useful things to do with their reactions.
2. That since escaping from a grapple does not use either the Ready or Use Object actions, both the Steel Defender and Homunculus Servant can in fact escape from a grapple. Also, since the rules for escaping a grapple are "detailed elsewhere in the rules," they do not invoke the second paragraph after "Actions in Combat" which says, "When you describe an action not detailed elsewhere in the rules, the DM tells you whether that action is possible and what kind of roll you need to make, if any, to determine success or failure." In effect, attempting to escape a grapple (or any imposed condition) is a perfectly reasonable and (maybe more importantly) allowable by RAW action for any creature to take.
3. A Steel Defender since they have a melee weapon attack in their stat block can attempt to grapple another creature. This conclusion is not as definitively spelled out in the rules, but since the Steel Defender's Force-Empowered Rend is a melee weapon attack, and a grapple is a special melee attack, I would rule it as allowable by RAI. Also, how else would a Steel Defender pull someone off the battlefield and to safety if they cannot not grapple someone?
Bark side up, bark side down, it really, truly does not matter.
Even more hysterically, the Steel Defender could counter a grapple with their own grapple attempt. Now the foe who thought they could drag your metal minion out of the way finds themselves with a speed of zero. Thus, they cannot move your creature and must spend their own action on finding a way out.
Bit of a necro post here but my mind came back to this issue today and I stumbled on what I think is a reasonable houserule. Rather than outright preventing a Homunculus Servant or a Steel defender from taking those actions typically available to a creature but not defined as available to them (such as escaping a grapple, using an item, or using a magic item, etc)
Instead any commands to perform actions outside of that list will take the Artificer's action to command them instead of their bonus action. This would reflect a more complex and nuanced commands to describe something for how it can accomplish something it wasn't necessarily preprogrammed to do.
So it'd effectively change the wording to this:
I feel like this compromise would respect the developer's wishes to keep the action economy under control and still allow players to come up with creative and situational methods to use the Homunuculus Servant/Steel Defender on the fly without hard flat shutdowns that kind of ruin fun in the moment.
A bit of topic Necro but unless I'm missing something the Homunculus Servant has no restrictions on the action that it can be commanded to take.
"In combat, the homunculus shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. If you are incapacitated, the homunculus can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge." (quote pulled from DnDBeyond) and in fact the Steel Defender now has similar language.
Perhaps there has been a errata since this thread was created?
Which implies to me that yes, a homunculus or steel defender can be commanded to ready an action (or in fact use an object if there was one that it was capable of holding) or per this discussion to try to escape a grapple (though as others have noted - if something is grappling your servant you have probably won the action economy game and far better the thing you can make afresh the next day for free than a fellow PC be grappled)
There hasn't only been an errata, there has been Tashas which reworked both those creatures so they can do stuff like escape a grapple or putting out themselfs when on fire.
Yeah I think the intent was originally that only their basic actions were restricted, and so any actions added due to special conditions (like being grappled) would still be gained as options as normal.
The normal rule is that specific beats general, but the problem was that the way the rule was originally written made it unclear which was the more specific rule (the Homunculus/Steel Defender rules, or being grappled). Glad they fixed this, though it's how I always played it anyway. 😉
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.