You need to go reread further up the page. Individual components can be made, but the DM needs to figure out what those components are; as well as their cost and weight. And even if they do, the cleric hits a snag as soon as they try to use Artisan's Blessing to create a breastplate. Yes, that's part of the full suit of armor.
It's just not possible with the feature.
And you need to re-read the section where I laid out 15 pieces of armor, and if we assume 100 gp for each it's achievable with DM approval. And I allowed for option where the player only uses Channel Divinity for 14 of 15 pieces and requiring the player to physically craft the breastplate not using Channel Divinity.
Some of those items would be as a pair - gauntlets, sabatons, pauldrons, vambraces, etc. I honestly think we (yes, myself included) are making too much of this topic. I just thought I'd remind everyone that it's a DM/Player discussion, DMs have the ability to adjudicate "unique" uses of spells, channel divinity, feats, etc., as not everything is ever 100% RAW. I just intend to balance the rules-as-written crowd with the "remember it's a game and is supposed to be fun", foster creative uses of abilities and spells, and that there always be unique situations, requests, etc., that arise in a gaming group.
Literally anything is achievable with DM approval. That’s not the point. This thread is about what you can do with the power, not what house rules you can invent to make it considerably stronger than intended. If that was the idea, just have the willing DM you are so fond of eliminate the 100 gp limit and be done with it.
I read what you posted, and I stand by my rebuttal. You aren't even the first person on the previous page to suggest breaking the armor down into 100 gp chunks. It's not possible because the breastplate is valued at 400 gold pieces. Even if you could successfully argue using Artisan's Blessing to craft lesser components, the entire plan still falls apart. You cannot use it to craft plate without also breaking it completely.
And you can't successfully argue that because here's the explicit text of the feature:
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
That's it. Notice how it says a suit of armor. Not pieces of a suit of armor, but a completed suit. So we're really only talking about chain mail, chain shirt, ring mail, scale mail, and the spiked armor if anyone needs it. And that's plenty.
Agree to disagree I guess. I've already account for the Breastplate point twice now and how a DM could require a specific standalone crafting role for the Breastplate that has nothing to do with Artisan's Blessing at all. Enforcing the RAW without interpretation is just silly as beyond this class ability there are thousands of creative, not specifically addressed spells, feats, and ability usage scenarios adjudicated between Player and DM daily/weekly.
I guess the points of "It's a game", "Remember to have fun and make it fun for your players" is lost on some of you. Nothing in my response / suggestion breaks the game. A player with 1500 gold has the ability to buy it from a vendor, or, with some reasonable collaboration between Player and GM, could find a neat in-game way to channel the power of their deity to make a suit themselves, still spending the same 1500 gold.
Cheers anyway. You do you and I'll enjoy the game my way.
You need to go reread further up the page. Individual components can be made, but the DM needs to figure out what those components are; as well as their cost and weight. And even if they do, the cleric hits a snag as soon as they try to use Artisan's Blessing to create a breastplate. Yes, that's part of the full suit of armor.
It's just not possible with the feature.
And you need to re-read the section where I laid out 15 pieces of armor, and if we assume 100 gp for each it's achievable with DM approval. And I allowed for option where the player only uses Channel Divinity for 14 of 15 pieces and requiring the player to physically craft the breastplate not using Channel Divinity.
Some of those items would be as a pair - gauntlets, sabatons, pauldrons, vambraces, etc. I honestly think we (yes, myself included) are making too much of this topic. I just thought I'd remind everyone that it's a DM/Player discussion, DMs have the ability to adjudicate "unique" uses of spells, channel divinity, feats, etc., as not everything is ever 100% RAW. I just intend to balance the rules-as-written crowd with the "remember it's a game and is supposed to be fun", foster creative uses of abilities and spells, and that there always be unique situations, requests, etc., that arise in a gaming group.
Literally anything is achievable with DM approval. That’s not the point. This thread is about what you can do with the power, not what house rules you can invent to make it considerably stronger than intended. If that was the idea, just have the willing DM you are so fond of eliminate the 100 gp limit and be done with it.
That's not your point, but you seem to ignore mine. Oh well . . . and I never suggested the removal of the 100 gp limit...you're stretching your argument to the extreme, but again, you do you, I'll do me. Lots of items in the books do not have a value at all and DMs are required to set a price or value. Many game worlds have different economies. I stand by the game rules are intended to be flexible and to encourage Players to be creative and discuss with the GMs if it works, how it works etc.
Full Plate as valued in the books is 1500 gp. Breastplate is 400 gp. A natural question would be - hey, can I use Channel Divinity or a Crafting role to create the remaining pieces of armor to make the breastplate a full suit? You say "No", I say, sure with some role-playing and the following conditions . . .
I read what you posted, and I stand by my rebuttal. You aren't even the first person on the previous page to suggest breaking the armor down into 100 gp chunks. It's not possible because the breastplate is valued at 400 gold pieces. Even if you could successfully argue using Artisan's Blessing to craft lesser components, the entire plan still falls apart. You cannot use it to craft plate without also breaking it completely.
And you can't successfully argue that because here's the explicit text of the feature:
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
That's it. Notice how it says a suit of armor. Not pieces of a suit of armor, but a completed suit. So we're really only talking about chain mail, chain shirt, ring mail, scale mail, and the spiked armor if anyone needs it. And that's plenty.
Agree to disagree I guess. I've already account for the Breastplate point twice now and how a DM could require a specific standalone crafting role for the Breastplate that has nothing to do with Artisan's Blessing at all. Enforcing the RAW without interpretation is just silly as beyond this class ability there are thousands of creative, not specifically addressed spells, feats, and ability usage scenarios adjudicated between Player and DM daily/weekly.
I guess the points of "It's a game", "Remember to have fun and make it fun for your players" is lost on some of you. Nothing in my response / suggestion breaks the game. A player with 1500 gold has the ability to buy it from a vendor, or, with some reasonable collaboration between Player and GM, could find a neat in-game way to channel the power of their deity to make a suit themselves, still spending the same 1500 gold.
Cheers anyway. You do you and I'll enjoy the game my way.
Now I'm curious. Do you think all RAW requires interpretation, or is some of it rather explicit in how it works? What RAW do you think is gray enough to require interpretation?
To be clear, you keep doing you. The shenanigans at your table has zero impact on any of us. I just want to know.
Now I'm curious. Do you think all RAW requires interpretation, or is some of it rather explicit in how it works? What RAW do you think is gray enough to require interpretation?
To be cleat, you keep doing you. The shenanigans at your table has zero impact on any of us. I just want to know.
I'm game for open discussion, but I'm not seeing the Artisan's Blessing scenario as depicted as being addressed fully by RAW, which would be a GM/Player discussion. Specially the Artisan's Blessing denotes two criteria as it relates to the scenario:
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing XGtE, pg. 19
You can use your Channel Divinity to conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object. The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp.
So from that we can agree that whatever is created (full suit or potentially individual pieces of armor) cannot be worth more than 100 gp. The Player asks "Hey, since armor is comprised of multiple pieces, is there a way to use Artisan's Blessing to craft a full suit of armor piece-meal style?" This relates to the suit of armor clause, but then conflicts with 100 gp criteria.
So as a GM I would ask myself - does this break the game? If full plate can be obtained from a vendor (is available to the players in another way), then my answer to myself is "nope, doesn't break the game, just allows them to obtain it in a different way".
Then I ask, does it provide a material discount from obtaining it a different way. Again, no, it still costs 1500 gp in total.
Then I ask myself, is it faster to obtain, and again, No, it actually takes longer, but the player gets the satisfaction of "making" the armor himself/herself which might make them enjoy their gaming sessions more.
Lastly I search the rules for how a character could construct a full suit of armor "normally" without Artisan's Blessing. Just using his crafting skill proficiency, tools and I assume access to a forge and anvil, metal stock (steel ingots, Iron ingots, bronze, or whatever the game world calls for). Hmm...I don't readily see those rules written out anywhere...okay, so what's the point of those skill proficiencies and tool proficiencies?
So if I go through the above and weigh the request against effort of 14 Artisan's Blessing occurrences, plus one "normal" crafting session for the 400 gp breastplate, ensure that the player covers the 1500 gp cost, and roleplays the effort to use the blessing and/or craft 15 pieces of armor, then to roleplay a final "fitting" to ensure all the pieces come together as intended, etc., then this positively impacts the player's experience with a DM imposed framework or structure, rewards their creativity, and doesn't harm the plans I have for the campaign.
My concern is there are million ways to deconstruct the written rules and challenge them - casting a fireball under water? What happens if Moonbeam is cast in an area of magical darkness? Simple off the top of me head examples, and I'm sure these forums are littered with many other scenarios not neatly accounted for in the rules as written.
At the end of the day I prefer to 'err' on the side of the player who is investing time into creativity and roleplaying after evaluating any potential detriments to my gaming sessions or campaign before deciding "No, not rules-as-written". D&D 5e is still a "simple" system, unlike other more detailed systems like Role-Master that account for armor by the piece, individual prices for everything, etc. With the system intended to be "light and flexible", these creative requests should be evaluated against the effort and reward/gain against the impact to the campaign, narrative, etc., and balanced against other player requests. I'm not advocating to throw the rules out, but to remember it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and engaging, and if it isn't detrimental to the campaign, group or narrative and doesn't imbalance party dynamics, then why not let the player have some fun?
Now I'm curious. Do you think all RAW requires interpretation, or is some of it rather explicit in how it works? What RAW do you think is gray enough to require interpretation?
To be clear, you keep doing you. The shenanigans at your table has zero impact on any of us. I just want to know.
I'm game for open discussion, but I'm not seeing the Artisan's Blessing scenario as depicted as being addressed fully by RAW, which would be a GM/Player discussion. Specially the Artisan's Blessing denotes two criteria as it relates to the scenario:
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing XGtE, pg. 19
You can use your Channel Divinity to conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object. The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp.
So from that we can agree that whatever is created (full suit or potentially individual pieces of armor) cannot be worth more than 100 gp. The Player asks "Hey, since armor is comprised of multiple pieces, is there a way to use Artisan's Blessing to craft a full suit of armor piece-meal style?" This relates to the suit of armor clause, but then conflicts with 100 gp criteria.
So as a GM I would ask myself - does this break the game? If full plate can be obtained from a vendor (is available to the players in another way), then my answer to myself is "nope, doesn't break the game, just allows them to obtain it in a different way".
Then I ask, does it provide a material discount from obtaining it a different way. Again, no, it still costs 1500 gp in total.
Then I ask myself, is it faster to obtain, and again, No, it actually takes longer, but the player gets the satisfaction of "making" the armor himself/herself which might make them enjoy their gaming sessions more.
Lastly I search the rules for how a character could construct a full suit of armor "normally" without Artisan's Blessing. Just using his crafting skill proficiency, tools and I assume access to a forge and anvil, metal stock (steel ingots, Iron ingots, bronze, or whatever the game world calls for). Hmm...I don't readily see those rules written out anywhere...okay, so what's the point of those skill proficiencies and tool proficiencies?
So if I go through the above and weigh the request against effort of 14 Artisan's Blessing occurrences, plus one "normal" crafting session for the 400 gp breastplate, ensure that the player covers the 1500 gp cost, and roleplays the effort to use the blessing and/or craft 15 pieces of armor, then to roleplay a final "fitting" to ensure all the pieces come together as intended, etc., then this positively impacts the player's experience with a DM imposed framework or structure, rewards their creativity, and doesn't harm the plans I have for the campaign.
Sorry, but how is this not addressed by RAW? Whatever made should conform to both criteria, no? I get the rest, and it seems reasonable enough. But it also requires more work on the part of the DM and player. How many components are they actually making? Is it actually 100 gp at a time, or is it less? How much do these components weigh? Where will they be stored while the armor is being assembled? These are also reasonable, logistical concerns that, RAW, need to be answered.
Isn't it just as reasonable that the dual hard limitations on a suit of armor and the item created being worth no more than 100 gp are meant to help the DM to avoid this measure of granularity? To be clear, your interpretation is a house rule. It isn't RAW in the slightest. And you can just handwave all those rules. Still, aren't these concerns worth addressing?
My concern is there are million ways to deconstruct the written rules and challenge them - casting a fireball under water? What happens if Moonbeam is cast in an area of magical darkness? Simple off the top of me head examples, and I'm sure these forums are littered with many other scenarios not neatly accounted for in the rules as written.
At the end of the day I prefer to 'err' on the side of the player who is investing time into creativity and roleplaying after evaluating any potential detriments to my gaming sessions or campaign before deciding "No, not rules-as-written". D&D 5e is still a "simple" system, unlike other more detailed systems like Role-Master that account for armor by the piece, individual prices for everything, etc. With the system intended to be "light and flexible", these creative requests should be evaluated against the effort and reward/gain against the impact to the campaign, narrative, etc., and balanced against other player requests. I'm not advocating to throw the rules out, but to remember it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and engaging, and if it isn't detrimental to the campaign, group or narrative and doesn't imbalance party dynamics, then why not let the player have some fun?
I mean, if you're outsourcing the work to the player then I get it. If it's something they want to do, then they should put in the effort to figure out how it can be done and make a persuasive case. I will say that there is something to be said for the tyranny of fun. Imposing limitations, especially in a game where resource management is a core part of its design, can actually be good for the game. I wish I could call this now five-page discussion a creative solution, but it's a solution in search of a problem. It's stilly, not in the good shenanigans way.
As for "deconstructing the written rules" and challenging them, fireball works underwater. It just does half damage. And how moonbeam interacts with magical darkness depends on the magical darkness. If it's against darkness, then moonbeam needs to be upcast to 3rd-level or higher to pierce the veil. These are both expressly covered by the rules. If you don't know that, then maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighing in on the subjects.
Sorry, but how is this not addressed by RAW? Whatever made should conform to both criteria, no? I get the rest, and it seems reasonable enough. But it also requires more work on the part of the DM and player. How many components are they actually making? Is it actually 100 gp at a time, or is it less? How much do these components weigh? Where will they be stored while the armor is being assembled? These are also reasonable, logistical concerns that, RAW, need to be answered.
Isn't it just as reasonable that the dual hard limitations on a suit of armor and the item created being worth no more than 100 gp are meant to help the DM to avoid this measure of granularity? To be clear, your interpretation is a house rule. It isn't RAW in the slightest. And you can just handwave all those rules. Still, aren't these concerns worth addressing?
I mean, if you're outsourcing the work to the player then I get it. If it's something they want to do, then they should put in the effort to figure out how it can be done and make a persuasive case. I will say that there is something to be said for the tyranny of fun. Imposing limitations, especially in a game where resource management is a core part of its design, can actually be good for the game. I wish I could call this now five-page discussion a creative solution, but it's a solution in search of a problem. It's stilly, not in the good shenanigans way.
As for "deconstructing the written rules" and challenging them, fireball works underwater. It just does half damage. And how moonbeam interacts with magical darkness depends on the magical darkness. If it's against darkness, then moonbeam needs to be upcast to 3rd-level or higher to pierce the veil. These are both expressly covered by the rules. If you don't know that, then maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighing in on the subjects.
Being a DM with creative players and creative situations or requests is sometimes more work, but also tends to result in more enjoyment for the group, and if balanced and thought out doesn't hurt the game/campaign, etc. And yes, usually the player bares some administration in following through with long-term creative uses like this. All of your questions are reasonable as far as individual piece cost, gold, etc., and is something that the player and DM can work out. Again for simplicity we anchor to 1500 gp, less 400 gp for the breastplate resulting in 1100 gp worth of pieces remaining (minimum). Challenge the player to decompose the full suit, work with them to assign average weights and costs.
I guess my question for anyone with the opposing viewpoint is: What does allowing this actually BREAK in the game? It's a creative use of a DIVINE ability. It potentially adds enjoyment and fun. What I'm not understanding is the vehement opposition to this creativity (for no real in-game gain - no cost reduction, etc.)? Why are you so opposed this type of approach? I'm honestly seeking to understand.
Regarding the other examples (fireball/water and Moonbeam/Darkness) - it was almost midnight and that was off the top of my head. Do I have every scenario and rule memorized, no, but I think you get my point in creative uses of spells and abilities needing to be evaluated all the time in games. Falling back to the argument of "maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighting in on the subjects"...hmm...so very welcoming to newer people with different perspectives. Confrontation without collaboration. Again, not a gaming dynamic or style I would enjoy but you and your group are free to enjoy the game as you decide.
You can use Artisan's Blessing to make the platinum rings necessary for warding bond. I only suggest this because platinum (setting-dependent, of course) is very rare. It's generally probably easier to just turn 50 gp into a platinum ring (twice) than to find either (1) platinum to work yourself or (2) someone who works with (and presumably has a supply of) platinum.
If you can get platinum, you could just make the rings with your smith's tools, since it would only actually take 50 gp worth of platinum to make two 50 gp rings -- when you make something yourself, it costs half as much since you're the one doing the work. So 5 pp (or a platinum trade bar that weighs 1/10 lb.) is enough to make both rings. However, if your DM requires a roll to forge the platinum rings (I don't remember which way the RAW is, so I'm bothering to stick this here), I'd recommend going Artisan's Blessing just for the certainty of success. Artisan's Blessing also takes an hour, compared to ten (or is it twenty?) 8-hour days.
So, if platinum is not accessible or there's a chance of failure to properly forge the rings, use Artisan's Blessing. If it is accessible, there is no chance of failure, and you have the downtime (10/20 days) to spend, go ahead and forge them yourself.
Yes, this is a perfectly valid use of the feature. A typical troll (CR 0-4) hoard weighs just over 10.73 pounds and contains, on average, 2,100 copper pieces. Now, RAW, that's too much to fit into a single belt pouch. They can only carry 300 coins or up to six pounds of weight. And it's a tiny amount of money to be splitting four ways, assuming a "standard" party size. But a rather efficient use of the feature would be to convert some of this amount into something usable. Like a spare suit of armor or weapon, 10 silvered ammunition, or the aforementioned platinum ring. Heck, you could even convert the treasure into platinum pieces; if you felt so inclined.
Another use is to make useful but bulky items. Or inexpensive but hard to find items.
Ladder 1 sp -- Occasionally handy but much to bulky to carry around everywhere you go. A metal ladder might be worth more, but it's still going to be well under 100gp. A strong ladder can be used to bridge a gap as well as climb up and down.
Row boat 50 gp -- dumb to carry around all the time, but when you need it making one in an hour is clutch
Wagon 35 gp, carriage 100 gp, or cart 15 gp -- very handy if you've found more loot than you can carry, or if your previous wagon has just been destroyed by enemies
Sled 20 gp - A blizzard rolls in and you're stuck in chest high snow. Put your wagon on a sled. Or put your short or low strength characters on a sled and let the barbarian tow them.
Tent 2 gp - Weather too bad to keep going? As long as the tentpole is metal you're fine. 2gp is the 2 man version, a larger tent would cost more but you're getting a pretty big tent before you go over 100 gp.
Lock 10 gp - Busted the padlock to get in and now you need to lock it up to keep things from getting out? Easy, as long as you've got an hour to spare.
Cage - price is obviously going to vary by the size of the cage but you should be able to get anything from a bird cage up to a man size cage for under 100 gp.
Manacles 2 gp - Did your buddy get subjected to a long duration charm spell you can't fix today? Manacles are more reliable than rope.
Ram, portable 4 gp - when every other method of getting that door open has failed due to terrible dice, the ram is there for you.
Set of mining tools - this isn't a standard set of tools, but it's a set of tools. The mining pick costs 2 gp, so a set of mining tools will be within the limit. Perfect for that time you clear out the haunted mine and then spot a seam precious metal and want to take home some souvenirs.
Anvil 50 gp - It weighs 200 pounds so nobody is carrying one of these around. If you've got a heat source your forge cleric can do forging. Maybe you could make a forge too? I couldn't find a price for a forge, but in the 3rd edition stronghold guide a whole Smithy costs 500 gp, but that includes forge, anvil, water barrel, tools, stone walls, stone floor. The forge might be within the limit? It would be thematic for a forge cleric to be able to build himself a whole workshop in a couple days. He might also be able to make a kiln for the guy with potters tools proficiency or a small furnace for the glassblower, those are pretty simple and might be under 100 gp. Potentially useful if you've got a home base for a while and want to bust out your tool proficiencies.
Book 25 gp or Spellbook 50 gp - Make a book with a metal binding. Okay, this one isn't that bulky, but unless you are in a major city no one is selling spellbooks. Somebody multi-classes into wizard and needs a spellbook? Here you go.
Rod 10 gp- Wizard lose her spell casting focus? Bam, new one in an hour.
Flute 2 gp, Lute 35 gp - Bard's lute get smashed and he needs a spell focus? Easy.
Artisan's Blessing isn't something you're going to use every day, but the days you need it it will be amazing.
Sorry, but how is this not addressed by RAW? Whatever made should conform to both criteria, no? I get the rest, and it seems reasonable enough. But it also requires more work on the part of the DM and player. How many components are they actually making? Is it actually 100 gp at a time, or is it less? How much do these components weigh? Where will they be stored while the armor is being assembled? These are also reasonable, logistical concerns that, RAW, need to be answered.
Isn't it just as reasonable that the dual hard limitations on a suit of armor and the item created being worth no more than 100 gp are meant to help the DM to avoid this measure of granularity? To be clear, your interpretation is a house rule. It isn't RAW in the slightest. And you can just handwave all those rules. Still, aren't these concerns worth addressing?
I mean, if you're outsourcing the work to the player then I get it. If it's something they want to do, then they should put in the effort to figure out how it can be done and make a persuasive case. I will say that there is something to be said for the tyranny of fun. Imposing limitations, especially in a game where resource management is a core part of its design, can actually be good for the game. I wish I could call this now five-page discussion a creative solution, but it's a solution in search of a problem. It's stilly, not in the good shenanigans way.
As for "deconstructing the written rules" and challenging them, fireball works underwater. It just does half damage. And how moonbeam interacts with magical darkness depends on the magical darkness. If it's against darkness, then moonbeam needs to be upcast to 3rd-level or higher to pierce the veil. These are both expressly covered by the rules. If you don't know that, then maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighing in on the subjects.
Being a DM with creative players and creative situations or requests is sometimes more work, but also tends to result in more enjoyment for the group, and if balanced and thought out doesn't hurt the game/campaign, etc. And yes, usually the player bares some administration in following through with long-term creative uses like this. All of your questions are reasonable as far as individual piece cost, gold, etc., and is something that the player and DM can work out. Again for simplicity we anchor to 1500 gp, less 400 gp for the breastplate resulting in 1100 gp worth of pieces remaining (minimum). Challenge the player to decompose the full suit, work with them to assign average weights and costs.
I guess my question for anyone with the opposing viewpoint is: What does allowing this actually BREAK in the game? It's a creative use of a DIVINE ability. It potentially adds enjoyment and fun. What I'm not understanding is the vehement opposition to this creativity (for no real in-game gain - no cost reduction, etc.)? Why are you so opposed this type of approach? I'm honestly seeking to understand.
Regarding the other examples (fireball/water and Moonbeam/Darkness) - it was almost midnight and that was off the top of my head. Do I have every scenario and rule memorized, no, but I think you get my point in creative uses of spells and abilities needing to be evaluated all the time in games. Falling back to the argument of "maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighting in on the subjects"...hmm...so very welcoming to newer people with different perspectives. Confrontation without collaboration. Again, not a gaming dynamic or style I would enjoy but you and your group are free to enjoy the game as you decide.
I think the main problem with allowing players to split armatures in order to create them with the Artisan's Blessing is that you then set a precedent for questioning the entire text.If I can make a more expensive armor by breaking it into pieces, then I can create a cloud of glowing silver (the text does not limit the temperature) or a pond of molten steel.Or maybe a flask of acid (the standard version is ideally made of glass but I just need to add an iron cap) or why not, if the acid is the non-metallic part of the flask then the water is the non-metallic part of the bucket.You can go on indefinitely allowing what is not specified in the text (like meat, it's considered an object and technically it contains iron), however the reality is that by RAW spells do only what they say they do.
I think there's room for creating pieces of a whole using RAW in the description of the ability:
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create simple items.
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
You can always figure out a hack. Letter of the law and spirit of the law. In general you can change everything in D&D into your own rules and ideas. Basically says that in the book. Spirit of creativity is yours. Take any class/ sub class level feature and turn it into a feat. Rogues Evasion is now a feat for everyone, enjoy. Combat Wild Shape circle of the moon is now a feat, go for it. Who cares if it minimizes the rogue or druids ability and skill set. 5E made the game so balanced, you can never give a +1/ +2 or +3 weapon and still have balance. So what, give em a +5 Adamantine Vorpal sword. You can do it. It's your game.
The point of this discussion it to look at the spirit of Artisans divine blessing for the low level aspect of the character to have a cool ability to make useful stuff when needed in the middle of a dungeon as low level broke characters without it turning into a cash register to make money. You're not supposed to be able to afford Plate armor at low level. You need to earn it. By the time you reach 7th level you should have found the armor or be close to being able to afford these higher priced items. BUT WAIT...there's more. The Forge Cleric is the only subclass that gets the spell Fabricate. The Wizard and Artificer get it. Thats it. AND the FORGE CLERIC. Fabricate takes all the frustration and annoyance with the Artisans Blessing and gives you free rein to build what you want (with appropriate artisan tools and raw materials). So my point is this. Make your players earn it. Let them enjoy and use what they have creatively.
I am currently playing a Dwarven Forge Cleric that hit level 5. He enjoys helping people in villages. I used a silver piece to make a clumsy farmer glasses so he could see better and stop running into things. Earning good will within the village. Find creative ways to use it. Have fun. At level 7 take all the crappy stuff you found that you have been using artisans blessing to turn into pure ingots and make everything your heart desires.
And remember, it's your game, make it over powered if you want to . The game I am currently a DM for everyone gets max HP every level, but all the monsters have max HP as well. These forums are to share creative ideas to help you be better as a player and a DM. Don't just look for answers you want to hear. Listen to all the feedback. This is the greatest cooperative story telling game ever created and has spawned countless duplicates in countless genres. Have fun or it is not worth playing.
The ability is pretty solid in Curse of Strahd, what with being able to just make silver.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well, you could make a hunk of silver, but you can't actually make a silver weapon. So handy to get you the silver to have a blacksmith apply to your weapon, I suppose.
Well, you could make a hunk of silver, but you can't actually make a silver weapon. So handy to get you the silver to have a blacksmith apply to your weapon, I suppose.
You can directly make the silvered ammunition, though. But yes, the silvered weapons still need crafting. You're merely sourcing the silver in a land more or less devoid of silver.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Literally anything is achievable with DM approval. That’s not the point.
This thread is about what you can do with the power, not what house rules you can invent to make it considerably stronger than intended. If that was the idea, just have the willing DM you are so fond of eliminate the 100 gp limit and be done with it.
Agree to disagree I guess. I've already account for the Breastplate point twice now and how a DM could require a specific standalone crafting role for the Breastplate that has nothing to do with Artisan's Blessing at all. Enforcing the RAW without interpretation is just silly as beyond this class ability there are thousands of creative, not specifically addressed spells, feats, and ability usage scenarios adjudicated between Player and DM daily/weekly.
I guess the points of "It's a game", "Remember to have fun and make it fun for your players" is lost on some of you. Nothing in my response / suggestion breaks the game. A player with 1500 gold has the ability to buy it from a vendor, or, with some reasonable collaboration between Player and GM, could find a neat in-game way to channel the power of their deity to make a suit themselves, still spending the same 1500 gold.
Cheers anyway. You do you and I'll enjoy the game my way.
That's not your point, but you seem to ignore mine. Oh well . . . and I never suggested the removal of the 100 gp limit...you're stretching your argument to the extreme, but again, you do you, I'll do me. Lots of items in the books do not have a value at all and DMs are required to set a price or value. Many game worlds have different economies. I stand by the game rules are intended to be flexible and to encourage Players to be creative and discuss with the GMs if it works, how it works etc.
Full Plate as valued in the books is 1500 gp. Breastplate is 400 gp. A natural question would be - hey, can I use Channel Divinity or a Crafting role to create the remaining pieces of armor to make the breastplate a full suit? You say "No", I say, sure with some role-playing and the following conditions . . .
Now I'm curious. Do you think all RAW requires interpretation, or is some of it rather explicit in how it works? What RAW do you think is gray enough to require interpretation?
To be clear, you keep doing you. The shenanigans at your table has zero impact on any of us. I just want to know.
I'm game for open discussion, but I'm not seeing the Artisan's Blessing scenario as depicted as being addressed fully by RAW, which would be a GM/Player discussion. Specially the Artisan's Blessing denotes two criteria as it relates to the scenario:
You can use your Channel Divinity to conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object. The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp.
So from that we can agree that whatever is created (full suit or potentially individual pieces of armor) cannot be worth more than 100 gp. The Player asks "Hey, since armor is comprised of multiple pieces, is there a way to use Artisan's Blessing to craft a full suit of armor piece-meal style?" This relates to the suit of armor clause, but then conflicts with 100 gp criteria.
So as a GM I would ask myself - does this break the game? If full plate can be obtained from a vendor (is available to the players in another way), then my answer to myself is "nope, doesn't break the game, just allows them to obtain it in a different way".
Then I ask, does it provide a material discount from obtaining it a different way. Again, no, it still costs 1500 gp in total.
Then I ask myself, is it faster to obtain, and again, No, it actually takes longer, but the player gets the satisfaction of "making" the armor himself/herself which might make them enjoy their gaming sessions more.
Lastly I search the rules for how a character could construct a full suit of armor "normally" without Artisan's Blessing. Just using his crafting skill proficiency, tools and I assume access to a forge and anvil, metal stock (steel ingots, Iron ingots, bronze, or whatever the game world calls for). Hmm...I don't readily see those rules written out anywhere...okay, so what's the point of those skill proficiencies and tool proficiencies?
So if I go through the above and weigh the request against effort of 14 Artisan's Blessing occurrences, plus one "normal" crafting session for the 400 gp breastplate, ensure that the player covers the 1500 gp cost, and roleplays the effort to use the blessing and/or craft 15 pieces of armor, then to roleplay a final "fitting" to ensure all the pieces come together as intended, etc., then this positively impacts the player's experience with a DM imposed framework or structure, rewards their creativity, and doesn't harm the plans I have for the campaign.
My concern is there are million ways to deconstruct the written rules and challenge them - casting a fireball under water? What happens if Moonbeam is cast in an area of magical darkness? Simple off the top of me head examples, and I'm sure these forums are littered with many other scenarios not neatly accounted for in the rules as written.
At the end of the day I prefer to 'err' on the side of the player who is investing time into creativity and roleplaying after evaluating any potential detriments to my gaming sessions or campaign before deciding "No, not rules-as-written". D&D 5e is still a "simple" system, unlike other more detailed systems like Role-Master that account for armor by the piece, individual prices for everything, etc. With the system intended to be "light and flexible", these creative requests should be evaluated against the effort and reward/gain against the impact to the campaign, narrative, etc., and balanced against other player requests. I'm not advocating to throw the rules out, but to remember it's a game, it's supposed to be fun and engaging, and if it isn't detrimental to the campaign, group or narrative and doesn't imbalance party dynamics, then why not let the player have some fun?
Sorry, but how is this not addressed by RAW? Whatever made should conform to both criteria, no? I get the rest, and it seems reasonable enough. But it also requires more work on the part of the DM and player. How many components are they actually making? Is it actually 100 gp at a time, or is it less? How much do these components weigh? Where will they be stored while the armor is being assembled? These are also reasonable, logistical concerns that, RAW, need to be answered.
Isn't it just as reasonable that the dual hard limitations on a suit of armor and the item created being worth no more than 100 gp are meant to help the DM to avoid this measure of granularity? To be clear, your interpretation is a house rule. It isn't RAW in the slightest. And you can just handwave all those rules. Still, aren't these concerns worth addressing?
I mean, if you're outsourcing the work to the player then I get it. If it's something they want to do, then they should put in the effort to figure out how it can be done and make a persuasive case. I will say that there is something to be said for the tyranny of fun. Imposing limitations, especially in a game where resource management is a core part of its design, can actually be good for the game. I wish I could call this now five-page discussion a creative solution, but it's a solution in search of a problem. It's stilly, not in the good shenanigans way.
As for "deconstructing the written rules" and challenging them, fireball works underwater. It just does half damage. And how moonbeam interacts with magical darkness depends on the magical darkness. If it's against darkness, then moonbeam needs to be upcast to 3rd-level or higher to pierce the veil. These are both expressly covered by the rules. If you don't know that, then maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighing in on the subjects.
Being a DM with creative players and creative situations or requests is sometimes more work, but also tends to result in more enjoyment for the group, and if balanced and thought out doesn't hurt the game/campaign, etc. And yes, usually the player bares some administration in following through with long-term creative uses like this. All of your questions are reasonable as far as individual piece cost, gold, etc., and is something that the player and DM can work out. Again for simplicity we anchor to 1500 gp, less 400 gp for the breastplate resulting in 1100 gp worth of pieces remaining (minimum). Challenge the player to decompose the full suit, work with them to assign average weights and costs.
I guess my question for anyone with the opposing viewpoint is: What does allowing this actually BREAK in the game? It's a creative use of a DIVINE ability. It potentially adds enjoyment and fun. What I'm not understanding is the vehement opposition to this creativity (for no real in-game gain - no cost reduction, etc.)? Why are you so opposed this type of approach? I'm honestly seeking to understand.
Regarding the other examples (fireball/water and Moonbeam/Darkness) - it was almost midnight and that was off the top of my head. Do I have every scenario and rule memorized, no, but I think you get my point in creative uses of spells and abilities needing to be evaluated all the time in games. Falling back to the argument of "maybe you should familiarize yourself a bit more before weighting in on the subjects"...hmm...so very welcoming to newer people with different perspectives. Confrontation without collaboration. Again, not a gaming dynamic or style I would enjoy but you and your group are free to enjoy the game as you decide.
You can use Artisan's Blessing to make the platinum rings necessary for warding bond. I only suggest this because platinum (setting-dependent, of course) is very rare. It's generally probably easier to just turn 50 gp into a platinum ring (twice) than to find either (1) platinum to work yourself or (2) someone who works with (and presumably has a supply of) platinum.
If you can get platinum, you could just make the rings with your smith's tools, since it would only actually take 50 gp worth of platinum to make two 50 gp rings -- when you make something yourself, it costs half as much since you're the one doing the work. So 5 pp (or a platinum trade bar that weighs 1/10 lb.) is enough to make both rings. However, if your DM requires a roll to forge the platinum rings (I don't remember which way the RAW is, so I'm bothering to stick this here), I'd recommend going Artisan's Blessing just for the certainty of success. Artisan's Blessing also takes an hour, compared to ten (or is it twenty?) 8-hour days.
So, if platinum is not accessible or there's a chance of failure to properly forge the rings, use Artisan's Blessing. If it is accessible, there is no chance of failure, and you have the downtime (10/20 days) to spend, go ahead and forge them yourself.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Yes, this is a perfectly valid use of the feature. A typical troll (CR 0-4) hoard weighs just over 10.73 pounds and contains, on average, 2,100 copper pieces. Now, RAW, that's too much to fit into a single belt pouch. They can only carry 300 coins or up to six pounds of weight. And it's a tiny amount of money to be splitting four ways, assuming a "standard" party size. But a rather efficient use of the feature would be to convert some of this amount into something usable. Like a spare suit of armor or weapon, 10 silvered ammunition, or the aforementioned platinum ring. Heck, you could even convert the treasure into platinum pieces; if you felt so inclined.
Another use is to make useful but bulky items. Or inexpensive but hard to find items.
Ladder 1 sp -- Occasionally handy but much to bulky to carry around everywhere you go. A metal ladder might be worth more, but it's still going to be well under 100gp. A strong ladder can be used to bridge a gap as well as climb up and down.
Row boat 50 gp -- dumb to carry around all the time, but when you need it making one in an hour is clutch
Wagon 35 gp, carriage 100 gp, or cart 15 gp -- very handy if you've found more loot than you can carry, or if your previous wagon has just been destroyed by enemies
Sled 20 gp - A blizzard rolls in and you're stuck in chest high snow. Put your wagon on a sled. Or put your short or low strength characters on a sled and let the barbarian tow them.
Tent 2 gp - Weather too bad to keep going? As long as the tentpole is metal you're fine. 2gp is the 2 man version, a larger tent would cost more but you're getting a pretty big tent before you go over 100 gp.
Lock 10 gp - Busted the padlock to get in and now you need to lock it up to keep things from getting out? Easy, as long as you've got an hour to spare.
Cage - price is obviously going to vary by the size of the cage but you should be able to get anything from a bird cage up to a man size cage for under 100 gp.
Manacles 2 gp - Did your buddy get subjected to a long duration charm spell you can't fix today? Manacles are more reliable than rope.
Ram, portable 4 gp - when every other method of getting that door open has failed due to terrible dice, the ram is there for you.
Set of mining tools - this isn't a standard set of tools, but it's a set of tools. The mining pick costs 2 gp, so a set of mining tools will be within the limit. Perfect for that time you clear out the haunted mine and then spot a seam precious metal and want to take home some souvenirs.
Anvil 50 gp - It weighs 200 pounds so nobody is carrying one of these around. If you've got a heat source your forge cleric can do forging. Maybe you could make a forge too? I couldn't find a price for a forge, but in the 3rd edition stronghold guide a whole Smithy costs 500 gp, but that includes forge, anvil, water barrel, tools, stone walls, stone floor. The forge might be within the limit? It would be thematic for a forge cleric to be able to build himself a whole workshop in a couple days. He might also be able to make a kiln for the guy with potters tools proficiency or a small furnace for the glassblower, those are pretty simple and might be under 100 gp. Potentially useful if you've got a home base for a while and want to bust out your tool proficiencies.
Book 25 gp or Spellbook 50 gp - Make a book with a metal binding. Okay, this one isn't that bulky, but unless you are in a major city no one is selling spellbooks. Somebody multi-classes into wizard and needs a spellbook? Here you go.
Rod 10 gp- Wizard lose her spell casting focus? Bam, new one in an hour.
Flute 2 gp, Lute 35 gp - Bard's lute get smashed and he needs a spell focus? Easy.
Artisan's Blessing isn't something you're going to use every day, but the days you need it it will be amazing.
Awesome and creative
I think the main problem with allowing players to split armatures in order to create them with the Artisan's Blessing is that you then set a precedent for questioning the entire text. If I can make a more expensive armor by breaking it into pieces, then I can create a cloud of glowing silver (the text does not limit the temperature) or a pond of molten steel. Or maybe a flask of acid (the standard version is ideally made of glass but I just need to add an iron cap) or why not, if the acid is the non-metallic part of the flask then the water is the non-metallic part of the bucket. You can go on indefinitely allowing what is not specified in the text (like meat, it's considered an object and technically it contains iron), however the reality is that by RAW spells do only what they say they do.
I think there's room for creating pieces of a whole using RAW in the description of the ability:
Channel Divinity: Artisan's Blessing
Starting at 2nd level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create simple items.
You conduct an hour-long ritual that crafts a nonmagical item that must include some metal: a simple or martial weapon, a suit of armor, ten pieces of ammunition, a set of tools, or another metal object (see chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for examples of these items). The creation is completed at the end of the hour, coalescing in an unoccupied space of your choice on a surface within 5 feet of you.
The thing you create can be something that is worth no more than 100 gp. As part of this ritual, you must lay out metal, which can include coins, with a value equal to the creation. The metal irretrievably coalesces and transforms into the creation at the ritual’s end, magically forming even nonmetal parts of the creation.
The ritual can create a duplicate of a nonmagical item that contains metal, such as a key, if you possess the original during the ritual.
You can always figure out a hack. Letter of the law and spirit of the law. In general you can change everything in D&D into your own rules and ideas. Basically says that in the book. Spirit of creativity is yours. Take any class/ sub class level feature and turn it into a feat. Rogues Evasion is now a feat for everyone, enjoy. Combat Wild Shape circle of the moon is now a feat, go for it. Who cares if it minimizes the rogue or druids ability and skill set. 5E made the game so balanced, you can never give a +1/ +2 or +3 weapon and still have balance. So what, give em a +5 Adamantine Vorpal sword. You can do it. It's your game.
The point of this discussion it to look at the spirit of Artisans divine blessing for the low level aspect of the character to have a cool ability to make useful stuff when needed in the middle of a dungeon as low level broke characters without it turning into a cash register to make money. You're not supposed to be able to afford Plate armor at low level. You need to earn it. By the time you reach 7th level you should have found the armor or be close to being able to afford these higher priced items. BUT WAIT...there's more. The Forge Cleric is the only subclass that gets the spell Fabricate. The Wizard and Artificer get it. Thats it. AND the FORGE CLERIC. Fabricate takes all the frustration and annoyance with the Artisans Blessing and gives you free rein to build what you want (with appropriate artisan tools and raw materials). So my point is this. Make your players earn it. Let them enjoy and use what they have creatively.
I am currently playing a Dwarven Forge Cleric that hit level 5. He enjoys helping people in villages. I used a silver piece to make a clumsy farmer glasses so he could see better and stop running into things. Earning good will within the village. Find creative ways to use it. Have fun. At level 7 take all the crappy stuff you found that you have been using artisans blessing to turn into pure ingots and make everything your heart desires.
And remember, it's your game, make it over powered if you want to . The game I am currently a DM for everyone gets max HP every level, but all the monsters have max HP as well. These forums are to share creative ideas to help you be better as a player and a DM. Don't just look for answers you want to hear. Listen to all the feedback. This is the greatest cooperative story telling game ever created and has spawned countless duplicates in countless genres. Have fun or it is not worth playing.
The ability is pretty solid in Curse of Strahd, what with being able to just make silver.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Well, you could make a hunk of silver, but you can't actually make a silver weapon. So handy to get you the silver to have a blacksmith apply to your weapon, I suppose.
You can directly make the silvered ammunition, though. But yes, the silvered weapons still need crafting. You're merely sourcing the silver in a land more or less devoid of silver.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.