The echo isn't a creature and therefore doesn't take damage from spells like Spirit Guardians or Fireball as well as creature auras like that on Ice Toad.
What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
No one has auras that damage objects. NO ONE HAS AURAS THAT DAMAGE OBJECTS! ECHOES ARE OBJECTS! AURA AFFECTS DON'T AFFECT THE ECHO!
Fireball would damage the echo because it lights objects on fire. Any DM I know would have a fireball destroy an echo. Good news, though! ECHOES ARE UNLIMITED, YOU CAN JUST SUMMON ANOTHER AS A BONUS ACTION WHENEVER YOU WANT!
Having another space you can attack from with opportunity attack is a major benefit. How often does your character get to make opportunity attacks? Not often, unless you have polearm master or sentinel, or both. Echo Knights have double the opportunity of making AoO than anyone else in the game. Sure, they don't get more reactions, but as a fighter, you basically don't use your reactions for anything besides Opportunity Attacks. Therefore, THIS ABILITY IS GOOD! YOU GET DOUBLE THE CHANCE OF MAKING OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS!
Why do you say you're more likely to have your echo up close? What evidence do you have to support your claim? There is way more beneficial things the echo can do when you have the echo more than 10 feet away from you than not having it away from you. The fact that you get double chance of using opportunity attacks is the main reason you'd want to keep it away from you, and close to other enemies, because if one of them runs, you can attack them, while you are standing 30 feet away fighting some other enemy.
Echoes cannot be targeted by Opportunity Attacks. Congratulations, you can have your echo move anywhere you want within 30 feet of you every round without the fear of someone stabbing it in the back.
Your echo doesn't need to catch up to running targets. You can, by doing a thing called dashing, and maybe using another thing called Action Surge to catch up to them. The echo isn't meant to be a battle field super-sonic sprinter running after any enemy you want. If you want to do that, you do it. This doesn't make the subclass any better or worse than any other in the game. What the heck is your point here? You are upset the echo can't run after others? Well, you can, because your character still has legs that it can use for running.
Most spells have to target creatures. Since an Echo isn't a creature, it doesn't matter how much they want to Toll of the Dead your Echo, they can't, your echo is immune. Also, YOU ARE ABLE TO SUMMON ECHOES BACK AS A BONUS ACTION ANYTIME YOU WANT, SO IF SOMEONE DOES STAB OR FIREBOLT YOUR ECHO, YOU CAN JUST POP IT BACK INTO EXISTENCE NEXT ROUND!
Echoes are also capable of keeping damage hitting you. Would you rather be slashed by the fire giant's great axe, the deals 23 damage, or have your echo take the damage? If the Echo takes the damage, you don't take the damage. Do you get it? Free echoes whenever you want capable of making attacks not hit you! This is a great way at tanking! Send your echo into battle, safely stay 30 feet away, or 1000 feet away at higher levels, provoke the enemies, let them know you're coming so they come after you or run away, and then you prepare for them coming, surprising them!
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
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The echo can be used as a familiar essentially and then able to move 1000 feet away so long as you are perceiving through its senses. Then you teleport as bonus action to that location. It’s not instant but it’s possible. Also, it doesn’t matter if the echo is solid. Spawn the echo 15 feet away (outside the cell) then teleport.
The echo can be used as a familiar essentially and then able to move 1000 feet away so long as you are perceiving through its senses. Then you teleport as bonus action to that location. It’s not instant but it’s possible. Also, it doesn’t matter if the echo is solid. Spawn the echo 15 feet away (outside the cell) then teleport.
Yep, super useful in prison breaks, especially because there's no way to block it from happening (except probably antimagic fields)
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I think the main strength of the echo for scouting is that there’s an infinite amount of them and it can tank traps and stuff. If it’s solid, then it will most likely activate pressure plates and ruin the dms traps. It has 1 health sure, but think of the tanking value. An enemy next to an echo with sentinel has two choices, waste an attack (brutal if it has only one), or risk getting stuck and taking more damage from a paper thin clone.
I think the main strength of the echo for scouting is that there’s an infinite amount of them and it can tank traps and stuff. If it’s solid, then it will most likely activate pressure plates and ruin the dms traps. It has 1 health sure, but think of the tanking value. An enemy next to an echo with sentinel has two choices, waste an attack (brutal if it has only one), or risk getting stuck and taking more damage from a paper thin clone.
If you ever want to discover if a hallway has traps, just send your echo down, as long as the traps don't trigger when creatures pass by, you should be fine. Then, if you want to be extra careful, teleport to the end. You could even stretch rope through the whole hallway for others to crawl across to make sure nothing goes wrong.
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I actually think this class is pretty powerful, it all comes down to strategy and creativity with the echo I think. I made an Archaeologist Warforged Echo Knight for my character. He uses echoes to help clear traps and scout in dungeons. I think there’s a lot of tactics that can be used as an Echo Knight that are very nice and I’ll explain here.
First, you can hit a guy 75 feet away in one turn. Who needs ranged weapons when you can close that distance? First move 30 feet, bonus action spawn the echo 15 feet ahead, then move it 30 feet ahead and attack. Sure it’ll disappear right after, but you’re still 45 feet away, if it’s a melee enemy you’re charging towards you’re still relatively safe.
Pair it with Sentinel. Even if you can’t get the second version of the opportunity attack with your echo (I’m assuming this is dm discretion) you can still completely ruin an enemies movement speed. You give them a choice. Waste an attack, or risk being OA’d and stuck. The stronger the enemy, the more value you get out of an echo taking the hit. You can act as a back line guard for the squishy spellcasters while still in the frontline fray at the same time. Stuck with a powerful enemy you can’t survive much longer? Use your echo to teleport away and sentinel to keep the enemy focused on your paper thin clone.
There’s not many damage boosts or special abilities from echo knight, and not too many charges or slots to manage, and I love that. It’s all about how well you can manipulate your echo and how tactical you can be. I should also note, just about everything I talked about here is all possible by level 4, and level 3 for variant human echo knights.
Yeah, the Echo RAW can move vertically, and there's nothing that says they take fall damage, or fall at all, so I'm not sure how to rule this.
That would be a poor interpretation so you can try to get a advantage but you are wrong, it doesn't say "the echo speed is 30 feet of flight." It is treated as a creature and for that matter a copy of you, last I just nost humanoids dont have a fly speed. Alot of things say "in any direction" guess by that logic players can just move vertically too, oh wait they can't.
Yeah, the Echo RAW can move vertically, and there's nothing that says they take fall damage, or fall at all, so I'm not sure how to rule this.
That would be a poor interpretation so you can try to get a advantage but you are wrong, it doesn't say "the echo speed is 30 feet of flight." It is treated as a creature and for that matter a copy of you, last I just nost humanoids dont have a fly speed. Alot of things say "in any direction" guess by that logic players can just move vertically too, oh wait they can't.
Yeah, the Echo RAW can move vertically, and there's nothing that says they take fall damage, or fall at all, so I'm not sure how to rule this.
That would be a poor interpretation so you can try to get a advantage but you are wrong, it doesn't say "the echo speed is 30 feet of flight." It is treated as a creature and for that matter a copy of you, last I just nost humanoids dont have a fly speed. Alot of things say "in any direction" guess by that logic players can just move vertically too, oh wait they can't.
He just wants it to suck for some reason. There are people on this forum who desperately want things to suck and be useless. I can't tell why, though.
In an even match between a champion and an Echo Knight, my money is on the echo knight. The champion will waste attacks on an echo (Especially if it has sentinel) while the echo knight will be pelting him. I love playing chess, so I love figuring out tactics that the Echo Knight can use. People just see small numbers and think "Oh its bad" when they don't realize its ridiculously broken abilities. This is literally my favorite class now. So little too worry about resource wise, and so much ability to use constantly.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896 There goes all that scouting flexibility, no crazy teleportations for us. I also don't understand how you can hide and make attacks through the echo simultaneously? Like, doesn't making an Attack action reveal your position? Don't you have to see the target (unless you are fine with Blinded condition effects)?
Flavorwise, the subclass is potentially interesting, however the mechanics as well as fuzzy wording ruin it for me. Why can your echo move vertically if it is a corporeal Object? How is it an object when it is also an image? Has it something to do with wave-particle duality? What characteristics does this object have? Is it flammable, does it have weight? If it can hover, I imagine it doesn't have weight, but if so it shouldn't be flammable either. Can I pick the echo by a Mage Hand or use it with the Catapult spell? Is it considered to be worn/carried? Does adamantine weapons always crit the echo on a hit, and if so how on earth can it be explained that "ultrahard metal" wrecks havok upon an image (not that it matters with 1hp, I just can't grasp the flavor)? As of now I can only imagine it as a glitchy t-posing model, spawning and flowing around the battlefield.
Honestly, it's a real shame, with all the commentary from Jeremy Crawford the classes in the book give me the filling of a pretty raw UA. If only there were one or two surveys on them. Maybe errata will fix them.
They really should've done a UA for these subclasses. That would've let us have input on how to fix the abilities. Wizards of the Coast kept telling us not to worry, it would be balanced, but when it came out all of the subclasses have quirky wording that create a lot of questions they need to fix.
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I also don't understand how you can hide and make attacks through the echo simultaneously? Like, doesn't making an Attack action reveal your position? Don't you have to see the target (unless you are fine with Blinded condition effects)?
well you could but its not very..."usable" its a bonus action to summon it and a action to hide, so you would move it into place to attack while you hide, it dies, you have to summon it again witch will give away your location and then use your action to hide, you could have just used the attack action twice with that flow, even if you took two levels in rogue its kind of the same deal because you would be using your bonus action to summon it and your bonus action to hide, its better to just bonus action hide and then fire some type of bow, also as I said before the echo can't hold ammo and the feature that calls for the extra attack specifies "melee attack".
so you could, but unless the thing you want to attack in within 45 feet of you, your looking at several turns on doing nothing witch means hanging your team mates out to dry
I also just realised something, any creature with aura damage renders the echo useless as most aura deal damage when a creature enters or ends there it takes damage so even if you use a bonus action to summon a new one if its within the aura range ot takes damage and as auras extens 5 or more feet means the echo becomes un useable
The echo is not a creature and thus is not affect by spells and affects that target creatures.
I also just realised something, any creature with aura damage renders the echo useless as most aura deal damage when a creature enters or ends there it takes damage so even if you use a bonus action to summon a new one if its within the aura range ot takes damage and as auras extens 5 or more feet means the echo becomes un useable
The echo is not a creature and thus is not affect by spells and affects that target creatures.
Yep, as 2 people (including me) have said above.
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I really like the Echo Knight and its a great use of at-will abilities. Once you get to 7th level its about what your DM will let you get away with lol.
HOWEVER, I will disagree with the point that it does more damage than Battlemaster. Battlemaster with just the dice damage will do more on average. Where it really leaves Echo (and most other fighters for that fact) in the dust is with the GWM or Sharpshooter feat with precision dice. The average damage output will increase dramatically from this combo as its a very easy way to help mitigate the -5 to hit.
Overall though I think Echo Knight is a good mix of combat and out of combat utility especially at level 7.
The echo isn't a creature and therefore doesn't take damage from spells like Spirit Guardians or Fireball as well as creature auras like that on Ice Toad.
What the heck are you even talking about ProxyJames? First, spellcheck your posts, all your typos makes it incredibly hard to understand what you're saying.
Echoes are useful! I don't know why you want them to suck so much, but they don't suck! They are great, and though they aren't as versatile or damage dealing as a Battle Master, they are great at keeping you from being attacked, and give you extra utility and opportunity attacks come more often!
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Holy Crap, Proxyjames is giving me a headache. LeviRocks, thank you for posting accurate info about this subclass
No problem. If they post anything else that is not true, I will be there to correct them.
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The echo can be used as a familiar essentially and then able to move 1000 feet away so long as you are perceiving through its senses. Then you teleport as bonus action to that location. It’s not instant but it’s possible. Also, it doesn’t matter if the echo is solid. Spawn the echo 15 feet away (outside the cell) then teleport.
Yep, super useful in prison breaks, especially because there's no way to block it from happening (except probably antimagic fields)
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I think the main strength of the echo for scouting is that there’s an infinite amount of them and it can tank traps and stuff. If it’s solid, then it will most likely activate pressure plates and ruin the dms traps. It has 1 health sure, but think of the tanking value. An enemy next to an echo with sentinel has two choices, waste an attack (brutal if it has only one), or risk getting stuck and taking more damage from a paper thin clone.
If you ever want to discover if a hallway has traps, just send your echo down, as long as the traps don't trigger when creatures pass by, you should be fine. Then, if you want to be extra careful, teleport to the end. You could even stretch rope through the whole hallway for others to crawl across to make sure nothing goes wrong.
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I actually think this class is pretty powerful, it all comes down to strategy and creativity with the echo I think.
I made an Archaeologist Warforged Echo Knight for my character. He uses echoes to help clear traps and scout in dungeons. I think there’s a lot of tactics that can be used as an Echo Knight that are very nice and I’ll explain here.
First, you can hit a guy 75 feet away in one turn. Who needs ranged weapons when you can close that distance? First move 30 feet, bonus action spawn the echo 15 feet ahead, then move it 30 feet ahead and attack. Sure it’ll disappear right after, but you’re still 45 feet away, if it’s a melee enemy you’re charging towards you’re still relatively safe.
Pair it with Sentinel. Even if you can’t get the second version of the opportunity attack with your echo (I’m assuming this is dm discretion) you can still completely ruin an enemies movement speed. You give them a choice. Waste an attack, or risk being OA’d and stuck. The stronger the enemy, the more value you get out of an echo taking the hit. You can act as a back line guard for the squishy spellcasters while still in the frontline fray at the same time.
Stuck with a powerful enemy you can’t survive much longer? Use your echo to teleport away and sentinel to keep the enemy focused on your paper thin clone.
There’s not many damage boosts or special abilities from echo knight, and not too many charges or slots to manage, and I love that. It’s all about how well you can manipulate your echo and how tactical you can be.
I should also note, just about everything I talked about here is all possible by level 4, and level 3 for variant human echo knights.
The echo is treated as an object. Source: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1240664419161399297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1240664419161399297&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.belloflostsouls.net%2F2020%2F04%2Fdd-critical-roles-new-subclass-breaks-the-game-and-its-kind-of-awesome.html Id suggest you stop posting about echo knight until you understand it. The fact its an object also gives it some crazy immunities, like spells that target creatures can't hit it. Also it can move vertically. Source: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242186507433070592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1242186507433070592&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.belloflostsouls.net%2F2020%2F04%2Fdd-critical-roles-new-subclass-breaks-the-game-and-its-kind-of-awesome.html I don't know why you're so bent on putting down this subclass so much.
He just wants it to suck for some reason. There are people on this forum who desperately want things to suck and be useless. I can't tell why, though.
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In an even match between a champion and an Echo Knight, my money is on the echo knight. The champion will waste attacks on an echo (Especially if it has sentinel) while the echo knight will be pelting him. I love playing chess, so I love figuring out tactics that the Echo Knight can use. People just see small numbers and think "Oh its bad" when they don't realize its ridiculously broken abilities. This is literally my favorite class now. So little too worry about resource wise, and so much ability to use constantly.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1242199682534608896
There goes all that scouting flexibility, no crazy teleportations for us.
I also don't understand how you can hide and make attacks through the echo simultaneously? Like, doesn't making an Attack action reveal your position? Don't you have to see the target (unless you are fine with Blinded condition effects)?
Flavorwise, the subclass is potentially interesting, however the mechanics as well as fuzzy wording ruin it for me. Why can your echo move vertically if it is a corporeal Object? How is it an object when it is also an image? Has it something to do with wave-particle duality? What characteristics does this object have? Is it flammable, does it have weight? If it can hover, I imagine it doesn't have weight, but if so it shouldn't be flammable either. Can I pick the echo by a Mage Hand or use it with the Catapult spell? Is it considered to be worn/carried? Does adamantine weapons always crit the echo on a hit, and if so how on earth can it be explained that "ultrahard metal" wrecks havok upon an image (not that it matters with 1hp, I just can't grasp the flavor)? As of now I can only imagine it as a glitchy t-posing model, spawning and flowing around the battlefield.
Honestly, it's a real shame, with all the commentary from Jeremy Crawford the classes in the book give me the filling of a pretty raw UA. If only there were one or two surveys on them. Maybe errata will fix them.
They really should've done a UA for these subclasses. That would've let us have input on how to fix the abilities. Wizards of the Coast kept telling us not to worry, it would be balanced, but when it came out all of the subclasses have quirky wording that create a lot of questions they need to fix.
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well you could but its not very..."usable" its a bonus action to summon it and a action to hide, so you would move it into place to attack while you hide, it dies, you have to summon it again witch will give away your location and then use your action to hide, you could have just used the attack action twice with that flow, even if you took two levels in rogue its kind of the same deal because you would be using your bonus action to summon it and your bonus action to hide, its better to just bonus action hide and then fire some type of bow, also as I said before the echo can't hold ammo and the feature that calls for the extra attack specifies "melee attack".
so you could, but unless the thing you want to attack in within 45 feet of you, your looking at several turns on doing nothing witch means hanging your team mates out to dry
The echo is not a creature and thus is not affect by spells and affects that target creatures.
Yep, as 2 people (including me) have said above.
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Couldn't you still use teleport with your Echo since it doesn't disappear until the end of your turn? Turn off Avatar then teleport during your turn?
I really like the Echo Knight and its a great use of at-will abilities. Once you get to 7th level its about what your DM will let you get away with lol.
HOWEVER, I will disagree with the point that it does more damage than Battlemaster. Battlemaster with just the dice damage will do more on average. Where it really leaves Echo (and most other fighters for that fact) in the dust is with the GWM or Sharpshooter feat with precision dice. The average damage output will increase dramatically from this combo as its a very easy way to help mitigate the -5 to hit.
Overall though I think Echo Knight is a good mix of combat and out of combat utility especially at level 7.
They're certainly not better than the battle master damage-wise, but they are nearly as versatile.
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