the Echo is considered an object so it couldn't get a reaction of it's own. as far as what it can do I think its almost like a concentration, you originate the attack and those are a quick event. it doesn't take long to swing your arm so I feel that's the time an echo is able to do something. you can grab an object off a table and whip it in one motion. you can push something with one motion. but to hold a lockpick more complex, like even tying a knot shouldn't be possible i feel. but to use a finger to push a latch should be doable as it isn't any different than a shove attack. I've thought about grappling with it but with only one hit point anyone with any strength bonus could do a damage with pure effort and rip it to pieces.
What's everyone's take on shoving or using Crusher (UA) to knock an enemy 5 feet away from an Echo to trigger the opportunity attack? Manifest Echo says:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
I know this usually doesn't apply to opportunity attacks because it requires creatures to move themselves, but the way its written above sounds like it'd work... maybe?
Any form of forced movement would not provoke an OA. It's been expounded upon multiple times in various rule clarifications. However, if you have a spell caster in the party with dissonant whispers you would be able to pull it off.
Opportunity Attacks also require the creature to be within your reach, which can obviously not be the case with Manifest Echo, so I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as you think it is.
The Manifest Echo feature specifies that you make the OA as though you were in the echo’s space. Here’s the relevant bullet point:
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
Its important to note that the echo only has a 5 ft reach though, regardless of what weapon you are using.
> (New - 5/3) Q: Can defensive spells with a range of "self" (such as Armor of Agathys) be applied to an Echo? > A: No, assuming a Knight could cast these spells, they would only apply to the Echo. Nothing in the rules say the effects also would apply to the Echo.
I suspect that was intended to read "they would only apply to the Knight".
> (New - 5/3) Q: Can defensive spells with a range of "self" (such as Armor of Agathys) be applied to an Echo? > A: No, assuming a Knight could cast these spells, they would only apply to the Echo. Nothing in the rules say the effects also would apply to the Echo.
I suspect that was intended to read "they would only apply to the Knight".
Here's the text of Manifest Echo. Bold text is my emphasis and is what I was referring to.
Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
It specifically says 5 ft. This would imply that regardless of whatever weapon you're holding and the reach that it has, the OAs are only triggered if a creature leaves the 5 ft reach of the echo. That means if the echo is attacked with a polearm and the attacker moves away, you get no reaction.
I think I misinterpreted your meaning. It doesn't get the OA because it wasn't within 5' of the Echo. The reach of the weapon has zip diddly to do with it. All of which is just poorly written. Under any other circumstance, (ie Attack Action) the weapon's reach is applied.
It all goes back to the adage 'specific beats general' and, despite how poorly written the class may be on paper, this is the only rule that specifically governs how the echo behaves with respect to OAs. You are right though. Under any other circumstances the creatures weapon (and in the case of some races, their limbs) would play a role in determining what radius they threaten. Don't get me wrong, I still think this class is super powerful.
The two problems I see are that (1) the echo is an object which makes its interactions with a lot of things weird and awkward to begin with and (2) it doesn't have your weapon, but rather you make attacks from its space with your weapon. Needless to say, its difficult to parse.
Teleporting out of reach is a legitimate way of ending the grappled and restrained conditions.
The way I would interpret the echo swap rules is that you are allowed to use your bonus action to teleport (ending the grappled condition which restores your speed to what it was before the grappled condition), and then you pay the cost, which is 15' of your movement. I don't think you have to have the movement available before you teleport. You must be able to pay the cost upon teleporting, though.
I think this is at least worthy of some debate. Everyone is just assuming you need to have the movement available beforehand because of the normal way we use the echo knight ("uh, I'll move here and that leaves me 15' of movement left so I can swap with my echo")... we're used to "saving up" movement so we can swap. Are there any equivalent examples of teleportation modes which require movement points that have been settled?
I'm not necessarily convinced that a grappled EK would be able to teleport away given the feature as written. I'm not saying you couldn't rule it that way, but the cost of things like this is usually paid up front. If I cast a spell, the spell slot is paid up front regardless of whether the spell fizzles or someone counter spells me. In order to enforce the parallelism within the rules, I think you would have to adjudicate this in a similar way. The EK would have to escape the grapple first and then switch places with their echo. The fact that the feature expressly states that you expend 15 ft of movement in order to teleport means you can't escape the grapple via teleportation since your movement speed is 0 while you are grappled.
This is akin to a spell caster wanting to cast a spell, but not having any spell slots left. Or a monk wanting to flurry of blows, but not having ki left. The resource is either zeroed out due to a condition or has been depleted entirely.
That being said, this does bring up a good recommendation for a magic item for the EK which is the Ring of Free Action to prevent being restrained. Also the Oil of Slipperiness could come in handy.
Correct - in order to teleport, the Echo Knight must spend 15 feet of movement. If you can't pay the cost, you can't use the ability. If you are grappled, your speed is 0 and you do not have 15 feet of movement. Pretty cut and dry.
Not much about this subclass is "cut and dry". The fact we have a massive thread about interpreting the shortest subclass highlights this is the worst written class they have ever made. Dont get me wrong I love the theme and concept but they clearly needed to put a lot more explicit clarifications in the text. In general you can teleport out of grapple so it is very odd that this would be an exception. As I DM I would overrule this (just like not being able to be frightened of something in magical darkness due to line of sight - makes no damn sense). Sometimes RAW is just dumb.
Thanks to all those that put together this thread. It is an amazing resource and a lot of it should basically go straight into the errata.
Not much about this subclass is "cut and dry". The fact we have a massive thread about interpreting the shortest subclass highlights this is the worst written class they have ever made. Dont get me wrong I love the theme and concept but they clearly needed to put a lot more explicit clarifications in the text. In general you can teleport out of grapple so it is very odd that this would be an exception. As I DM I would overrule this (just like not being able to be frightened of something in magical darkness due to line of sight - makes no damn sense). Sometimes RAW is just dumb.
Thanks to all those that put together this thread. It is an amazing resource and a lot of it should basically go straight into the errata.
Hang on, there's a very important phrase missing from that sentence. "In general you can teleport out of a grapple if you have the necessary resources to do so."
As I stated above, if the EK is grappled or restrained then it's movement speed is zero and it does not have the 'movement resources' (if we could call it that...) to use their echo-based teleport to get out of the grapple RAW. How is this any different from expecting a spell caster to have both a bonus action and a second level spell slot to cast Misty Step in order to escape the same thing? Or an action to make a contested check to escape the grapple on their turn or pull themselves free of whatever is restraining them? Moreover, how is it unreasonable to expect that the EK pay that movement cost upfront when, in general, other abilities in the game also work that way?
Again, RAW, there is no mention of timing here and in the absence of any further clarification we would assume that the cost is paid first before the ability triggers. Now you may ask "What's an example of an ability where the cost isn't paid upfront or is only partially paid in order to get the ability to trigger before the rest of the cost must be paid?" The best example I can think of is Convergent Future from the Chronurgy Wizard. Here's the relevant text (emphasis mine):
Convergent Future
14th-level Chronurgy Magic feature
You can peer through possible futures and magically pull one of them into events around you, ensuring a particular outcome. When you or a creature you can see within 60 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw, you can use your reaction to ignore the die roll and decide whether the number rolled is the minimum needed to succeed or one less than that number (your choice).
When you use this feature, you gain one level of exhaustion. Only by finishing a long rest can you remove a level of exhaustion gained in this way.
Notice that this feature exacts a partial cost initially (the character's reaction). Then it exacts a secondary cost after the ability has been used (a level of exhaustion). Now within the context of the game and verisimilitude, we might rule that these two things are happening in an instant (ie: simultaneously). However, given the flow of the actual mechanics out of character, the Wizard uses their reaction, resolves the ability, and then takes the level of exhaustion regardless of what happened.
Considering that the EK does not have any such wording regarding the timing of this and that 5e is constructed upon the basis of the interpretation of natural language, we would assume that the teleportation ability granted by an echo must follow the same rules. Thus, I would probably rule that an EK if grappled or restrained would not be able to teleport out from whatever is holding them. As I said before, you are free to rule this differently at your own table, but I think that by RAW (and in the absence of any errata at the time that I write this) it wouldn't work.
As for the bit where you discuss how the class is "the worst written" within 5e, I'm not sure I would go so far as to characterize it in that way, but I do agree there is a tremendous amount about this class and its functionality that has not been properly captured within the text. The fact that the powers that be (ie: Mearls, Crawford, Perkins, and above all else Mercer) have not chimed in to clarify any of this is indeed frustrating from an adjudication standpoint. However, on some weird level, my two cents is that I kinda like that. I like how this class encourages so much creative play and I love the basic idea of a highly mobile fighter with the ability to extend melee weapon attacks to 30 feet. Not to mention its powerful battlefield control applications.
Q: How far can an Echo Knight move in a single round with the aid of an Echo and assuming a movement speed of 30'? A: In one round, if a Knight already has an Echo manifested that is 30’ away, the Echo can move another 30’ further away on that turn. Then the Knight can swap places with it (costing 15’ of movement and a bonus action). The Knight can then move an additional 15’ – for a total of 75’ before using the Knight’s action or Action surge. The Echo will still disappear at the end of the round because it has moved more than 30’ away from the Knight.
It is worth noting than an Echo Knight cannot manifest an Echo and swap places with it in the same turn.
Hey Giant, you may want to specifically point out the use of the 'Dash' action here. Assuming my math is right, I think it would break down like this:
If the Echo was at a 30 ft radius, you would be able to take a dash action (doubling your movement to 60 ft), move the Echo 30 ft and swap with it (costing 15 ft and your bonus action), and then you could move the remaining 45 ft. So that's 60 ft for the teleport, 15 ft for the knight's normal movement, and 30 ft for the dash which totals 105 ft.
Hey Giant, you may want to specifically point out the use of the 'Dash' action here. Assuming my math is right, I think it would break down like this:
Good question Vii007. I do have the text "...before using the Knight’s action or Action surge" in there. But maybe it isn't clear that the knight can still use their action to take a dash?
Aarakocra Echo Knight, spends 15 feet of movement to go 35 feet, then dashes twice with Action Surge to go a total of 135 feet. If you started with the echo 30 feet away already, and moved it before teleporting, you can go 165 feet.
Or, using your level 7 ability, you can go 1000 feet, though that's not RAI
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the Echo is considered an object so it couldn't get a reaction of it's own. as far as what it can do I think its almost like a concentration, you originate the attack and those are a quick event. it doesn't take long to swing your arm so I feel that's the time an echo is able to do something. you can grab an object off a table and whip it in one motion. you can push something with one motion. but to hold a lockpick more complex, like even tying a knot shouldn't be possible i feel. but to use a finger to push a latch should be doable as it isn't any different than a shove attack. I've thought about grappling with it but with only one hit point anyone with any strength bonus could do a damage with pure effort and rip it to pieces.
What's everyone's take on shoving or using Crusher (UA) to knock an enemy 5 feet away from an Echo to trigger the opportunity attack? Manifest Echo says:
I know this usually doesn't apply to opportunity attacks because it requires creatures to move themselves, but the way its written above sounds like it'd work... maybe?
Any form of forced movement would not provoke an OA. It's been expounded upon multiple times in various rule clarifications. However, if you have a spell caster in the party with dissonant whispers you would be able to pull it off.
Opportunity Attacks also require the creature to be within your reach, which can obviously not be the case with Manifest Echo, so I'm not sure it's as cut and dry as you think it is.
The Manifest Echo feature specifies that you make the OA as though you were in the echo’s space. Here’s the relevant bullet point:
Its important to note that the echo only has a 5 ft reach though, regardless of what weapon you are using.
> (New - 5/3) Q: Can defensive spells with a range of "self" (such as Armor of Agathys) be applied to an Echo?
> A: No, assuming a Knight could cast these spells, they would only apply to the Echo. Nothing in the rules say the effects also would apply to the Echo.
I suspect that was intended to read "they would only apply to the Knight".
Thanks! Fixed.
Based on what?
Here's the text of Manifest Echo. Bold text is my emphasis and is what I was referring to.
It specifically says 5 ft. This would imply that regardless of whatever weapon you're holding and the reach that it has, the OAs are only triggered if a creature leaves the 5 ft reach of the echo. That means if the echo is attacked with a polearm and the attacker moves away, you get no reaction.
I think I misinterpreted your meaning. It doesn't get the OA because it wasn't within 5' of the Echo. The reach of the weapon has zip diddly to do with it. All of which is just poorly written. Under any other circumstance, (ie Attack Action) the weapon's reach is applied.
It all goes back to the adage 'specific beats general' and, despite how poorly written the class may be on paper, this is the only rule that specifically governs how the echo behaves with respect to OAs. You are right though. Under any other circumstances the creatures weapon (and in the case of some races, their limbs) would play a role in determining what radius they threaten. Don't get me wrong, I still think this class is super powerful.
The two problems I see are that (1) the echo is an object which makes its interactions with a lot of things weird and awkward to begin with and (2) it doesn't have your weapon, but rather you make attacks from its space with your weapon. Needless to say, its difficult to parse.
Some thoughts about being able to swap places with your echo out of a grapple or being restrained...
Under other normal circumstances, once the grappled condition ends, you are certainly allowed to move (see https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/722475787027243008).
Teleporting out of reach is a legitimate way of ending the grappled and restrained conditions.
The way I would interpret the echo swap rules is that you are allowed to use your bonus action to teleport (ending the grappled condition which restores your speed to what it was before the grappled condition), and then you pay the cost, which is 15' of your movement. I don't think you have to have the movement available before you teleport. You must be able to pay the cost upon teleporting, though.
I think this is at least worthy of some debate. Everyone is just assuming you need to have the movement available beforehand because of the normal way we use the echo knight ("uh, I'll move here and that leaves me 15' of movement left so I can swap with my echo")... we're used to "saving up" movement so we can swap. Are there any equivalent examples of teleportation modes which require movement points that have been settled?
I'm not necessarily convinced that a grappled EK would be able to teleport away given the feature as written. I'm not saying you couldn't rule it that way, but the cost of things like this is usually paid up front. If I cast a spell, the spell slot is paid up front regardless of whether the spell fizzles or someone counter spells me. In order to enforce the parallelism within the rules, I think you would have to adjudicate this in a similar way. The EK would have to escape the grapple first and then switch places with their echo. The fact that the feature expressly states that you expend 15 ft of movement in order to teleport means you can't escape the grapple via teleportation since your movement speed is 0 while you are grappled.
This is akin to a spell caster wanting to cast a spell, but not having any spell slots left. Or a monk wanting to flurry of blows, but not having ki left. The resource is either zeroed out due to a condition or has been depleted entirely.
That being said, this does bring up a good recommendation for a magic item for the EK which is the Ring of Free Action to prevent being restrained. Also the Oil of Slipperiness could come in handy.
Correct - in order to teleport, the Echo Knight must spend 15 feet of movement. If you can't pay the cost, you can't use the ability. If you are grappled, your speed is 0 and you do not have 15 feet of movement. Pretty cut and dry.
Not much about this subclass is "cut and dry". The fact we have a massive thread about interpreting the shortest subclass highlights this is the worst written class they have ever made. Dont get me wrong I love the theme and concept but they clearly needed to put a lot more explicit clarifications in the text. In general you can teleport out of grapple so it is very odd that this would be an exception. As I DM I would overrule this (just like not being able to be frightened of something in magical darkness due to line of sight - makes no damn sense). Sometimes RAW is just dumb.
Thanks to all those that put together this thread. It is an amazing resource and a lot of it should basically go straight into the errata.
Hang on, there's a very important phrase missing from that sentence. "In general you can teleport out of a grapple if you have the necessary resources to do so."
As I stated above, if the EK is grappled or restrained then it's movement speed is zero and it does not have the 'movement resources' (if we could call it that...) to use their echo-based teleport to get out of the grapple RAW. How is this any different from expecting a spell caster to have both a bonus action and a second level spell slot to cast Misty Step in order to escape the same thing? Or an action to make a contested check to escape the grapple on their turn or pull themselves free of whatever is restraining them? Moreover, how is it unreasonable to expect that the EK pay that movement cost upfront when, in general, other abilities in the game also work that way?
Again, RAW, there is no mention of timing here and in the absence of any further clarification we would assume that the cost is paid first before the ability triggers. Now you may ask "What's an example of an ability where the cost isn't paid upfront or is only partially paid in order to get the ability to trigger before the rest of the cost must be paid?" The best example I can think of is Convergent Future from the Chronurgy Wizard. Here's the relevant text (emphasis mine):
Notice that this feature exacts a partial cost initially (the character's reaction). Then it exacts a secondary cost after the ability has been used (a level of exhaustion). Now within the context of the game and verisimilitude, we might rule that these two things are happening in an instant (ie: simultaneously). However, given the flow of the actual mechanics out of character, the Wizard uses their reaction, resolves the ability, and then takes the level of exhaustion regardless of what happened.
Considering that the EK does not have any such wording regarding the timing of this and that 5e is constructed upon the basis of the interpretation of natural language, we would assume that the teleportation ability granted by an echo must follow the same rules. Thus, I would probably rule that an EK if grappled or restrained would not be able to teleport out from whatever is holding them. As I said before, you are free to rule this differently at your own table, but I think that by RAW (and in the absence of any errata at the time that I write this) it wouldn't work.
As for the bit where you discuss how the class is "the worst written" within 5e, I'm not sure I would go so far as to characterize it in that way, but I do agree there is a tremendous amount about this class and its functionality that has not been properly captured within the text. The fact that the powers that be (ie: Mearls, Crawford, Perkins, and above all else Mercer) have not chimed in to clarify any of this is indeed frustrating from an adjudication standpoint. However, on some weird level, my two cents is that I kinda like that. I like how this class encourages so much creative play and I love the basic idea of a highly mobile fighter with the ability to extend melee weapon attacks to 30 feet. Not to mention its powerful battlefield control applications.
Hey Giant, you may want to specifically point out the use of the 'Dash' action here. Assuming my math is right, I think it would break down like this:
If the Echo was at a 30 ft radius, you would be able to take a dash action (doubling your movement to 60 ft), move the Echo 30 ft and swap with it (costing 15 ft and your bonus action), and then you could move the remaining 45 ft. So that's 60 ft for the teleport, 15 ft for the knight's normal movement, and 30 ft for the dash which totals 105 ft.
Good question Vii007. I do have the text "...before using the Knight’s action or Action surge" in there. But maybe it isn't clear that the knight can still use their action to take a dash?
It's not necessary, but I'm just preempting the question "What's the furthest that an EK could move in a single turn?" Up to you though!
Aarakocra Echo Knight, spends 15 feet of movement to go 35 feet, then dashes twice with Action Surge to go a total of 135 feet. If you started with the echo 30 feet away already, and moved it before teleporting, you can go 165 feet.
Or, using your level 7 ability, you can go 1000 feet, though that's not RAI
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Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms