Yo, for people who say a restrained or grappled fcreature cannot swap places because they have zero movement, that ruling would also make the Freedom of Movement spell somewhat useless. That is not how it is supposed to work. This Reddit answer explains it well.
Yo, for people who say a restrained or grappled fcreature cannot swap places because they have zero movement, that ruling would also make the Freedom of Movement spell somewhat useless. That is not how it is supposed to work. This Reddit answer explains it well.
Not a particular strong argument considering it wouldn't be the first spell that's pretty useless in that case. Honestly per RAW Freedom of Movement really doesn't work as intended when grappled, however I don't think there's a DM that would rule it this way. Not that it's a particularly popular spell anyway.
Yet Crawford explains that it is intended to work that way, so, there is a clear argument here imo for the Echo Knight to be ruled the same way.
Following that train of thought, they can't even use Manifest Echo outside of combat because there's no bonus action outside of combat. Something has to give. The action economy works to limit what they can do during a combat round out of necessity. There's only so much which can be accomplished in six seconds. Divorced from combat, there's no longer an issue.
I think the big problem with thinking the echo can scout, via Echo Avatar, is not fully grasping what it means to scout. A rogue sticking to the shadows is not going to scout the same way a wizard's familiar can hide in plain sight. In other words, relying on cover and illumination to take full advantage of Dexterity ([skill]Stealth[/skill) checks isn't the only way to do things. In that same vein, Echo Avatar allows the fighter to appear, see, and hear as if they're somewhere they're not.
The types of actions which can be performed through the echo are still severely limited. It isn't much good for anything but attacking, being a target, and being used to spy. We should be working within those expressed limitations to come up with new role-playing opportunities.
LOL. There is no rule saying you can't manifest an Echo outside of combat. That is ridiculous. Bonus actions don't "cost" you anything outside of combat, since time flows differently when you are not in combat. That does NOT mean you cannot get your Echo to appear at any time when you want it to outside of combat. Think about it, if you could ONLY make the Echo appear in combat, then you're always wasting your first round of combat bonus action getting the Echo to appear, even if you suspected 5 minutes ago that combat would happen. Please stop inventing rules to support what is NOT clearly being stated by the actual rules.
The attack action can only be used to trigger an attack if the trap says it can; or the DM allows it regardless. It's not a fail-safe. And if you insist on constantly having the echo attack every conceivable object and surface, you're going to slow down the game. That quickly becomes tedious.
In any case, traps first need to be detected. And then you have to wonder if triggering them is actually preferable.
Traps do not need to be detected before they are sprung. Again, you are making up a rule to justify limiting a feature of the subclass. If that rule does exist, you should be able to quote it from the DDB rules or Sage Advice or official Errata. If not, I rest my case.
Following that train of thought, they can't even use Manifest Echo outside of combat because there's no bonus action outside of combat. Something has to give. The action economy works to limit what they can do during a combat round out of necessity. There's only so much which can be accomplished in six seconds. Divorced from combat, there's no longer an issue.
I think the big problem with thinking the echo can scout, via Echo Avatar, is not fully grasping what it means to scout. A rogue sticking to the shadows is not going to scout the same way a wizard's familiar can hide in plain sight. In other words, relying on cover and illumination to take full advantage of Dexterity ([skill]Stealth[/skill) checks isn't the only way to do things. In that same vein, Echo Avatar allows the fighter to appear, see, and hear as if they're somewhere they're not.
The types of actions which can be performed through the echo are still severely limited. It isn't much good for anything but attacking, being a target, and being used to spy. We should be working within those expressed limitations to come up with new role-playing opportunities.
LOL. There is no rule saying you can't manifest an Echo outside of combat. That is ridiculous. Bonus actions don't "cost" you anything outside of combat, since time flows differently when you are not in combat. That does NOT mean you cannot get your Echo to appear at any time when you want it to outside of combat. Think about it, if you could ONLY make the Echo appear in combat, then you're always wasting your first round of combat bonus action getting the Echo to appear, even if you suspected 5 minutes ago that combat would happen. Please stop inventing rules to support what is NOT clearly being stated by the actual rules.
Reading isn't your strong suit, is it?
You spend the first half of your post repeating my own point back to me: that the bonus action limitation shouldn't matter outside of combat. Then you follow up with, if I'm reading you correctly, the echo should always be active. Because either the echo knight can constantly summon it or they can have it move along with them. And, okay, I suppose they could do just that. It's also dumb as hell. It isn't a waste of a first round to spend a bonus action to summon the echo. You can move 30 feet and summon it in front of you, closing a gap that would otherwise be too big to cross in a single turn. That's not wasteful. And if you try to pull that malarkey at my table, I'll shut it down. Argue with me and you get booted.
Using a class feature as intended is never wasteful. Check your attitude.
The attack action can only be used to trigger an attack if the trap says it can; or the DM allows it regardless. It's not a fail-safe. And if you insist on constantly having the echo attack every conceivable object and surface, you're going to slow down the game. That quickly becomes tedious.
In any case, traps first need to be detected. And then you have to wonder if triggering them is actually preferable.
Traps do not need to be detected before they are sprung. Again, you are making up a rule to justify limiting a feature of the subclass. If that rule does exist, you should be able to quote it from the DDB rules or Sage Advice or official Errata. If not, I rest my case.
What case? You want to just have the echo blindly attack spaces, floor tiles, doors, and more to see if a trap might trigger? You tried resorting to legalese to equate attack with the "interacting with objects around you" sidebar. Give us all a break. If you're going to accuse me of making up rules, look in the mirror.
You're doing a bang up job of convincing me you don't actually want to play the game. Certainly not with other people. You read like someone who just want to slow play down to a crawl and solo everything. And, if so, fine. Go and have fun with that. I'd rather just let people make ability checks, regardless of the outcome, and move on to the next thing.
If the echo is near someone wants to do a ranged attack. Does that creature attack with disadvantage?
I know this isn't helpful, but it depends on your DM. The echo isn't, strictly speaking, a creature. At least, that's the consensus. It's certainly the opinion of Jeremy Crawford. And if you buy his word, while not being official Sage Advice, then the answer is no. If the echo isn't a creature, then it would not cause disadvantage in this circumstance.
It's also true that the class feature does not call the echo an object, and the rules for objects are largely for discrete objects. By this, I mean inanimate objects which aren't secured in one way. Some objects, like vehicles, have stat blocks and can make saving throws; despite objects normally either automatically failing (in the case of Strength or Dexterity) or simply being immune. Such objects blur the line between creature and object, and so does the echo; since it can make saving throws using the fighter's proficiencies. This is a case where the echo is an exception to the general rule, so the general rule need not apply. It's not specifically countermanded, and the specific function and intent ae both unclear.
This thread is largely the result of an amateur effort to codify something that may have never been meant to be codified. Or, perhaps more confusing, it is codified; just not in a recognizable way to people who demand concrete answers. Some of us don't do well with open interpretations. It's one of the reasons why this thread has endured for so long.
Using an echo to attack an object to check for traps or mimics at range! That is a great idea!
Using an echo is effectively no different than using a bow, sling, ten foot pole, thrown rock, or a disposable animated skeleton. If there is a problem with players doing this to the point of abuse then the solution is using common sense. What do all these things do, from echo attack to thrown rock? They slow the party down and they make noise. Cue the random encounter, and or alert the natives and eliminate the parties chance for surprise. No big shakes at all.
And of course you can use bonus actions outside of combat! What kind of DM tells the party Bard, "No, I'm sorry, you can't give the Paladin inspiration before he gives a speech to the King. You can only take bonus actions in combat."
This thread has been really useful to me as a DM and as a player. While not everyone agrees on some of the weirder less clear bits, using an echo to attack objects is obviously fine. Of course that is all an echo can do. It can't pick up an object, or manipulate an object. But smack it with your weapon, all good!
I have a very very important question. Yes, I'm only being semi serious, but this is a real question.
Could a character throw a white sheet over an echo, with eye holes cut into it so it looks like a ghost? I mean, a ghost in the "White sheet over a person" sense.
Also, can you cast light or darkness on an echo, then move the effect around with the echo?
Got ya! I forgot that the echo is it's own weird thing, neither creature nor object.
As for the ghost bit, I'll just have the character wear a sheet with eyeholes when he summons his echo. That should be straight forward enough. One odd note in relation to this, since the echo can be targeted by a net, what happens if it gets hit? The echo can't be restrained. The net just falls off?
What do you think about attacks like life drain when its an object?
Depends on the wording of the ability in question. Let's look at the wight.
Life Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.
A humanoid slain by this attack rises 24 hours later as a zombie under the wight's control, unless the humanoid is restored to life or its body is destroyed. The wight can have no more than twelve zombies under its control at one time.
The action doesn't care if the target is a creature or an object, so it doesn't care as to the status of the echo. The only thing that matters is the hit point maximum is reduced. Except the echo has only one hit point, so it's maximum hit points can't be reduced. The minimum damage from a successful attack is more than enough to end it before the saving throw even applies.
What do you think about attacks like life drain when its an object?
Depends on the wording of the ability in question. Let's look at the wight.
Life Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.
A humanoid slain by this attack rises 24 hours later as a zombie under the wight's control, unless the humanoid is restored to life or its body is destroyed. The wight can have no more than twelve zombies under its control at one time.
The action doesn't care if the target is a creature or an object, so it doesn't care as to the status of the echo. The only thing that matters is the hit point maximum is reduced. Except the echo has only one hit point, so it's maximum hit points can't be reduced. The minimum damage from a successful attack is more than enough to end it before the saving throw even applies.
I disagree, life drain specially states, one creature in its description, so wouldn't effect the echo.
What do you think about attacks like life drain when its an object?
Depends on the wording of the ability in question. Let's look at the wight.
Life Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) necrotic damage. The target must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or its hit point maximum is reduced by an amount equal to the damage taken. This reduction lasts until the target finishes a long rest. The target dies if this effect reduces its hit point maximum to 0.
A humanoid slain by this attack rises 24 hours later as a zombie under the wight's control, unless the humanoid is restored to life or its body is destroyed. The wight can have no more than twelve zombies under its control at one time.
The action doesn't care if the target is a creature or an object, so it doesn't care as to the status of the echo. The only thing that matters is the hit point maximum is reduced. Except the echo has only one hit point, so it's maximum hit points can't be reduced. The minimum damage from a successful attack is more than enough to end it before the saving throw even applies.
I disagree, life drain specially states, one creature in its description, so wouldn't effect the echo.
Okay, the action cares. I missed the target up front and was only concerned with everything after the damage roll. That said, the echo is only immune if you accept the idea that it's an object; which isn't stated anywhere in its description. It doesn't follow any of the rules for objects laid out in the PH or DMG.
Following the rules for an (or any) object does not make a difference in this case, versus an Echo. Simply put the Echo is strictly not a creature, therefor anything that will affect only a creature cannot affect the Echo, unless it explicitly states it can do so, including abilities that can drain life. The Echo does not need to be classified as an object to ignore effects that affect only creatures.
Following the rules for an (or any) object does not make a difference in this case, versus an Echo. Simply put the Echo is strictly not a creature, therefor anything that will affect only a creature cannot affect the Echo, unless it explicitly states it can do so, including abilities that can drain life. The Echo does not need to be classified as an object to ignore effects that affect only creatures.
That's not as helpful as you might think. Some vehicles use a creature stat block. They can make saving throws. The general rules for objects don't apply to them.
The echo can make saving throws. Objects can't normally do that.
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Yo, for people who say a restrained or grappled fcreature cannot swap places because they have zero movement, that ruling would also make the Freedom of Movement spell somewhat useless. That is not how it is supposed to work. This Reddit answer explains it well.
Yet Crawford explains that it is intended to work that way, so, there is a clear argument here imo for the Echo Knight to be ruled the same way.
LOL. There is no rule saying you can't manifest an Echo outside of combat. That is ridiculous. Bonus actions don't "cost" you anything outside of combat, since time flows differently when you are not in combat. That does NOT mean you cannot get your Echo to appear at any time when you want it to outside of combat. Think about it, if you could ONLY make the Echo appear in combat, then you're always wasting your first round of combat bonus action getting the Echo to appear, even if you suspected 5 minutes ago that combat would happen. Please stop inventing rules to support what is NOT clearly being stated by the actual rules.
Traps do not need to be detected before they are sprung. Again, you are making up a rule to justify limiting a feature of the subclass. If that rule does exist, you should be able to quote it from the DDB rules or Sage Advice or official Errata. If not, I rest my case.
If the echo is near someone wants to do a ranged attack. Does that creature attack with disadvantage?
Reading isn't your strong suit, is it?
You spend the first half of your post repeating my own point back to me: that the bonus action limitation shouldn't matter outside of combat. Then you follow up with, if I'm reading you correctly, the echo should always be active. Because either the echo knight can constantly summon it or they can have it move along with them. And, okay, I suppose they could do just that. It's also dumb as hell. It isn't a waste of a first round to spend a bonus action to summon the echo. You can move 30 feet and summon it in front of you, closing a gap that would otherwise be too big to cross in a single turn. That's not wasteful. And if you try to pull that malarkey at my table, I'll shut it down. Argue with me and you get booted.
Using a class feature as intended is never wasteful. Check your attitude.
What case? You want to just have the echo blindly attack spaces, floor tiles, doors, and more to see if a trap might trigger? You tried resorting to legalese to equate attack with the "interacting with objects around you" sidebar. Give us all a break. If you're going to accuse me of making up rules, look in the mirror.
You're doing a bang up job of convincing me you don't actually want to play the game. Certainly not with other people. You read like someone who just want to slow play down to a crawl and solo everything. And, if so, fine. Go and have fun with that. I'd rather just let people make ability checks, regardless of the outcome, and move on to the next thing.
I know this isn't helpful, but it depends on your DM. The echo isn't, strictly speaking, a creature. At least, that's the consensus. It's certainly the opinion of Jeremy Crawford. And if you buy his word, while not being official Sage Advice, then the answer is no. If the echo isn't a creature, then it would not cause disadvantage in this circumstance.
It's also true that the class feature does not call the echo an object, and the rules for objects are largely for discrete objects. By this, I mean inanimate objects which aren't secured in one way. Some objects, like vehicles, have stat blocks and can make saving throws; despite objects normally either automatically failing (in the case of Strength or Dexterity) or simply being immune. Such objects blur the line between creature and object, and so does the echo; since it can make saving throws using the fighter's proficiencies. This is a case where the echo is an exception to the general rule, so the general rule need not apply. It's not specifically countermanded, and the specific function and intent ae both unclear.
This thread is largely the result of an amateur effort to codify something that may have never been meant to be codified. Or, perhaps more confusing, it is codified; just not in a recognizable way to people who demand concrete answers. Some of us don't do well with open interpretations. It's one of the reasons why this thread has endured for so long.
Using an echo to attack an object to check for traps or mimics at range! That is a great idea!
Using an echo is effectively no different than using a bow, sling, ten foot pole, thrown rock, or a disposable animated skeleton. If there is a problem with players doing this to the point of abuse then the solution is using common sense. What do all these things do, from echo attack to thrown rock? They slow the party down and they make noise. Cue the random encounter, and or alert the natives and eliminate the parties chance for surprise. No big shakes at all.
And of course you can use bonus actions outside of combat! What kind of DM tells the party Bard, "No, I'm sorry, you can't give the Paladin inspiration before he gives a speech to the King. You can only take bonus actions in combat."
This thread has been really useful to me as a DM and as a player. While not everyone agrees on some of the weirder less clear bits, using an echo to attack objects is obviously fine. Of course that is all an echo can do. It can't pick up an object, or manipulate an object. But smack it with your weapon, all good!
I have a very very important question. Yes, I'm only being semi serious, but this is a real question.
Could a character throw a white sheet over an echo, with eye holes cut into it so it looks like a ghost? I mean, a ghost in the "White sheet over a person" sense.
Also, can you cast light or darkness on an echo, then move the effect around with the echo?
Got ya! I forgot that the echo is it's own weird thing, neither creature nor object.
As for the ghost bit, I'll just have the character wear a sheet with eyeholes when he summons his echo. That should be straight forward enough. One odd note in relation to this, since the echo can be targeted by a net, what happens if it gets hit? The echo can't be restrained. The net just falls off?
What do you think about attacks like life drain when its an object?
Depends on the wording of the ability in question. Let's look at the wight.
The action doesn't care if the target is a creature or an object, so it doesn't care as to the status of the echo. The only thing that matters is the hit point maximum is reduced. Except the echo has only one hit point, so it's maximum hit points can't be reduced. The minimum damage from a successful attack is more than enough to end it before the saving throw even applies.
I disagree, life drain specially states, one creature in its description, so wouldn't effect the echo.
Okay, the action cares. I missed the target up front and was only concerned with everything after the damage roll. That said, the echo is only immune if you accept the idea that it's an object; which isn't stated anywhere in its description. It doesn't follow any of the rules for objects laid out in the PH or DMG.
we play on the assumption that the echo is a magical object, which seems to be the generally accepted basis.
Following the rules for an (or any) object does not make a difference in this case, versus an Echo. Simply put the Echo is strictly not a creature, therefor anything that will affect only a creature cannot affect the Echo, unless it explicitly states it can do so, including abilities that can drain life. The Echo does not need to be classified as an object to ignore effects that affect only creatures.
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That's not as helpful as you might think. Some vehicles use a creature stat block. They can make saving throws. The general rules for objects don't apply to them.
The echo can make saving throws. Objects can't normally do that.