the arcane archer and rune knight (who is still playtest material) both represent their own exotic breeds on traditional arcane magic, both being able to produce effects that are mostly unlike the spells any ordinary mage can cast, and since they are made as fighter archetypes you would choose one at level 3, however this seems a bit odd from an lore perspective. Like fighters are not just any old bloke who can swing a sword, they are supposed to be the peak of what an mundane warrior can be without resorting to supernatural powers or underhanded tactics. So why would you need that much martial talent in order to master a magical discipline? like yes both of these subclasses enhance your combat prowess quite a bit, but i do not understand why being not only a fighter, but a fighter with a fair amount of experience fighting monsters and whatnot in order to even begin to learn the secrets of rune magic and imbuing magic into your arrows? is it a matter of those who are willing to teach these skills, mighty giants and elvish archery masters, being unwilling to train anyone unskilled in the ways of combat? is there some kind of mindset that needs to be attained through excellence and near-death experiences that is nessesary to learning these arts?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It could be wizards consider this magic low powerd compared to glyphs and not worthy of intense study. Sorcerers magic is self taught, Rune magic is focused low powered, not something to learn off a cuff. There no magic of song in runes.
I agree with you and that’s why we have Champion, Battle Master and Samurai as Fighter sub-classes representing a non magical approach for combat. You could have thousands of mundane ways to become one of these sub-classes.
I believe EK, Rune Knight and Arcane Archer just add the “magical component” to that. Same thing for Psi Warrior. For some reason you have developed a “supernatural” power that compliments and assists you in battle.
According to the new Tasha’s book who had the content page leaked recently, they will have a dedicated session only to talk about “mundane builds” for Battle Master sub-class (things like Bodyguard, Gladiator, etc).
With the Rune Knight, its kind of an incomplete education in an alien form of magic, with giants (and specifically those knowledgeable in rune magic) being somewhat rare.
Arcane archer is kind of a naturally evolved gish fighting style, with elves who were more physical combatants weaving in their meager magical talents until it became an entire style.
You can think of both of these exotic schools of magic as more built on limited knowledge and a slow build up of experience, rather than being akin to the schools of magic built on study or raw talent.
I find Rune Knight particular flavorful for a Dwarf. If you have any desire to play a Dwarf Gish and just feel EK is wrong, these whole things about rune magic sounds great. You can refluff as something connected to the dwarven culture.
I find Rune Knight particular flavorful for a Dwarf. If you have any desire to play a Dwarf Gish and just feel EK is wrong, these whole things about rune magic sounds great. You can refluff as something connected to the dwarven culture.
Duegar rune knight is also the only way to play as a huge character without using a shape changing spell. wrestling ancient dragons has a certain charm to it.
It could be wizards consider this magic low powerd compared to glyphs and not worthy of intense study. Sorcerers magic is self taught, Rune magic is focused low powered, not something to learn off a cuff. There no magic of song in runes.
dissinterest does not equal inabillity, shurely that cannot speak for every single wizard and every single member of every other clas out there
With the Rune Knight, its kind of an incomplete education in an alien form of magic, with giants (and specifically those knowledgeable in rune magic) being somewhat rare.
Arcane archer is kind of a naturally evolved gish fighting style, with elves who were more physical combatants weaving in their meager magical talents until it became an entire style.
You can think of both of these exotic schools of magic as more built on limited knowledge and a slow build up of experience, rather than being akin to the schools of magic built on study or raw talent.
yes but that still does not explain why rune magic specifically is only something an exceptional warrior can learn, why no other characters can learn this craft
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Who said the Fighter has to be mundane and without magic? Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, and Rune Knight all represent the ability to harness magical power in a martial way while maintaining a greater, but not singular, focus on combat expertise. The Bladesinger, however, maintains a greater focus on magical knowledge while also developing combat expertise not typical to most Wizards. Not all fighters have to be purely muscle-bound meat-shields who are barely literate.
Who said the Fighter has to be mundane and without magic? Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, and Rune Knight all represent the ability to harness magical power in a martial way while maintaining a greater, but not singular, focus on combat expertise. The Bladesinger, however, maintains a greater focus on magical knowledge while also developing combat expertise not typical to most Wizards. Not all fighters have to be purely muscle-bound meat-shields who are barely literate.
i absolutely did not say that, all i said is that an fighter is an exceptional combatant who represents the peak of what an warrior can do without ki, rage or divine magic, that does not per se mean that they are stupid or that they don't also later pick up arcane magic or advanced manuvers to supplement their techniques
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The description of how the fighter comes into giant runes explains why its of limited use to other characters. Having to find a practitioner or chance upon the runes in an ancient ruin is really limiting. Even if characters of other classes come across that chance encounter, the requirement to train and practice to use it would turn many off.
For mages, they already have ways of learning further magic by study or experimentation with the magic they know. Finding and using the armor and weapons to hold runic enchantments takes them away from that path. The only good it would be to them would be as trivia.
Most martial classes have a similar onus against rune magic. Barbarians and rogues aren't known for a grinding study of a physical art (they don't even take the time to learn a fighting style, normally). Rangers and Paladins have a path to magic to pursue that they are already involved in as a day job, and which conflicts with setting aside time to practice runes. Monks are specifically trained not to rely on weapons and armor.
The only class that might not have a thematic clash with picking up runes would be the Artificer, but they basically have a reworked version of giant runes that they can do more with.
So it makes sense that the class whose whole identity is training for physical combat would jump at the chance to be better at physical combat using the one form of magic that just requires grueling, repetitive practice (the thing they are already doing) rather than radically departing from the path they have already started down to survive in a world of dangers.
All the Martial Classes have “Magicish” subclasses: Barbarians have Ancestral, Totem, Storm, Zealot, etc. Monks have, well, almost all of them. Even Rogues now have the (UA) Phantom to compliment the Trickster.
Personally speaking I really like the concept of seasoned warriors who rely only in their martial prowess, battle cunning and the strength of their own arms. Natural talent, hard working and training. No arcane arts, no divine intervention, no otherworldly patron and no aid from the nature.
You can accommodate all this capabilities in several classes and sub-classes that are not obvious. A tactical battle commander could be a charismatic Ancestral Avenger Barbarian, a cunning and nimble bounty hunter could be a DEX Battlemaster Fighter, a brutish tavern pugilist could be a STR Rogue (with Expertise in Athletics), etc.
As I said, it’s all about the tone you set to your character. You can say your Rune Knight is a “magical samurai” using magic paper (Ofuda) to increase his fighting skills learnt from the magical spirits of the nature (some sort of Shintoism).
All the Martial Classes have “Magicish” subclasses: Barbarians have Ancestral, Totem, Storm, Zealot, etc. Monks have, well, almost all of them. Even Rogues now have the (UA) Phantom to compliment the Trickster.
Sure, but all of those subclasses either have some kind of inborn aspect (my god/ancestors/fey give me power) or are just a partial version of another magic class (which barbarians don't even get access to at all). They aren't involved in studying an entirely alien kind of magic.
the Rune knight is already kind of a partial user of the full magic system of giants. A full caster version would just be made by reskinning the Artificer.
But for other classes to really get into rune magic as subclass really stretches what those classes do, and what rune magic is. Why would 50ft. tall creatures bother with rune magic to help them be stealthy, for instance? Or create runes to help in a spellcasting system that they themselves do not use?
I would say there's definitely a martial requirement to some of these sub-classes; a Wizard couldn't just choose to be an Arcane Archer for example, because you need to be an expert archer for the magic to be of any use. That Wizard probably could magically charge some arrows, but if they can't hit the side of a barn at point blank range with them then why bother?
Eldritch Knights have mostly the same spells as a Wizard, but less capacity to cast them, so they're a type of sword mage with big emphasis on the sword, which they can mix with casting, giving them the ability to strike and cast cantrips at the same time around when Wizards just start fireballing everything in sight.
I don't think there's any problem with these themes, and they add magic to non-magic classes, just as some magic classes get more combat oriented sub-classes (College of Swords for Bards, Elven Swordmage for Wizard etc.).
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My take on this is that the martial classes that master these forms of magic are able to do so because there is something specific and unique about them that makes it so they are only learnable by these classes. That's how I explain it in my campaigns, at least. It's the same reason why Paladins and Rangers have unique magical powers, they have something unique about their style of martial combat that allows them to use their type of magic.
As Sposta said, there are magical subclasses for every class in the game. Barbarians have Wild Soul, Totem, Storm, and Zealot paths. Fighters have Arcane Archers, Echo Knights, Eldritch Knights, Rune Knights, and Psychic Warriors. All monks have some magical powers, certain subclasses with more than others (4 Elements, Shadow, Sun Soul, and Astral Self). Rogues have Arcane Tricksters and Phantom Rogues. Every one of these subclass have features specific to them that no one else gets.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
the arcane archer and rune knight (who is still playtest material) both represent their own exotic breeds on traditional arcane magic, both being able to produce effects that are mostly unlike the spells any ordinary mage can cast, and since they are made as fighter archetypes you would choose one at level 3, however this seems a bit odd from an lore perspective. Like fighters are not just any old bloke who can swing a sword, they are supposed to be the peak of what an mundane warrior can be without resorting to supernatural powers or underhanded tactics. So why would you need that much martial talent in order to master a magical discipline? like yes both of these subclasses enhance your combat prowess quite a bit, but i do not understand why being not only a fighter, but a fighter with a fair amount of experience fighting monsters and whatnot in order to even begin to learn the secrets of rune magic and imbuing magic into your arrows? is it a matter of those who are willing to teach these skills, mighty giants and elvish archery masters, being unwilling to train anyone unskilled in the ways of combat? is there some kind of mindset that needs to be attained through excellence and near-death experiences that is nessesary to learning these arts?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It could be wizards consider this magic low powerd compared to glyphs and not worthy of intense study. Sorcerers magic is self taught, Rune magic is focused low powered, not something to learn off a cuff. There no magic of song in runes.
I agree with you and that’s why we have Champion, Battle Master and Samurai as Fighter sub-classes representing a non magical approach for combat. You could have thousands of mundane ways to become one of these sub-classes.
I believe EK, Rune Knight and Arcane Archer just add the “magical component” to that. Same thing for Psi Warrior. For some reason you have developed a “supernatural” power that compliments and assists you in battle.
According to the new Tasha’s book who had the content page leaked recently, they will have a dedicated session only to talk about “mundane builds” for Battle Master sub-class (things like Bodyguard, Gladiator, etc).
With the Rune Knight, its kind of an incomplete education in an alien form of magic, with giants (and specifically those knowledgeable in rune magic) being somewhat rare.
Arcane archer is kind of a naturally evolved gish fighting style, with elves who were more physical combatants weaving in their meager magical talents until it became an entire style.
You can think of both of these exotic schools of magic as more built on limited knowledge and a slow build up of experience, rather than being akin to the schools of magic built on study or raw talent.
I find Rune Knight particular flavorful for a Dwarf. If you have any desire to play a Dwarf Gish and just feel EK is wrong, these whole things about rune magic sounds great. You can refluff as something connected to the dwarven culture.
Duegar rune knight is also the only way to play as a huge character without using a shape changing spell. wrestling ancient dragons has a certain charm to it.
dissinterest does not equal inabillity, shurely that cannot speak for every single wizard and every single member of every other clas out there
yes but that still does not explain why rune magic specifically is only something an exceptional warrior can learn, why no other characters can learn this craft
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
As I said, I think it’s just a matter of flavor. You could be a Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock who works with runes to make your magic happen.
Rune Knights only scribe runes in their equipment and empower them with magic, and it’s fine.
Who said the Fighter has to be mundane and without magic? Arcane Archer, Eldritch Knight, and Rune Knight all represent the ability to harness magical power in a martial way while maintaining a greater, but not singular, focus on combat expertise. The Bladesinger, however, maintains a greater focus on magical knowledge while also developing combat expertise not typical to most Wizards. Not all fighters have to be purely muscle-bound meat-shields who are barely literate.
i absolutely did not say that, all i said is that an fighter is an exceptional combatant who represents the peak of what an warrior can do without ki, rage or divine magic, that does not per se mean that they are stupid or that they don't also later pick up arcane magic or advanced manuvers to supplement their techniques
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The description of how the fighter comes into giant runes explains why its of limited use to other characters. Having to find a practitioner or chance upon the runes in an ancient ruin is really limiting. Even if characters of other classes come across that chance encounter, the requirement to train and practice to use it would turn many off.
For mages, they already have ways of learning further magic by study or experimentation with the magic they know. Finding and using the armor and weapons to hold runic enchantments takes them away from that path. The only good it would be to them would be as trivia.
Most martial classes have a similar onus against rune magic. Barbarians and rogues aren't known for a grinding study of a physical art (they don't even take the time to learn a fighting style, normally). Rangers and Paladins have a path to magic to pursue that they are already involved in as a day job, and which conflicts with setting aside time to practice runes. Monks are specifically trained not to rely on weapons and armor.
The only class that might not have a thematic clash with picking up runes would be the Artificer, but they basically have a reworked version of giant runes that they can do more with.
So it makes sense that the class whose whole identity is training for physical combat would jump at the chance to be better at physical combat using the one form of magic that just requires grueling, repetitive practice (the thing they are already doing) rather than radically departing from the path they have already started down to survive in a world of dangers.
All the Martial Classes have “Magicish” subclasses: Barbarians have Ancestral, Totem, Storm, Zealot, etc. Monks have, well, almost all of them. Even Rogues now have the (UA) Phantom to compliment the Trickster.
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Personally speaking I really like the concept of seasoned warriors who rely only in their martial prowess, battle cunning and the strength of their own arms. Natural talent, hard working and training. No arcane arts, no divine intervention, no otherworldly patron and no aid from the nature.
You can accommodate all this capabilities in several classes and sub-classes that are not obvious. A tactical battle commander could be a charismatic Ancestral Avenger Barbarian, a cunning and nimble bounty hunter could be a DEX Battlemaster Fighter, a brutish tavern pugilist could be a STR Rogue (with Expertise in Athletics), etc.
As I said, it’s all about the tone you set to your character. You can say your Rune Knight is a “magical samurai” using magic paper (Ofuda) to increase his fighting skills learnt from the magical spirits of the nature (some sort of Shintoism).
Sure, but all of those subclasses either have some kind of inborn aspect (my god/ancestors/fey give me power) or are just a partial version of another magic class (which barbarians don't even get access to at all). They aren't involved in studying an entirely alien kind of magic.
the Rune knight is already kind of a partial user of the full magic system of giants. A full caster version would just be made by reskinning the Artificer.
But for other classes to really get into rune magic as subclass really stretches what those classes do, and what rune magic is. Why would 50ft. tall creatures bother with rune magic to help them be stealthy, for instance? Or create runes to help in a spellcasting system that they themselves do not use?
I would say there's definitely a martial requirement to some of these sub-classes; a Wizard couldn't just choose to be an Arcane Archer for example, because you need to be an expert archer for the magic to be of any use. That Wizard probably could magically charge some arrows, but if they can't hit the side of a barn at point blank range with them then why bother?
Eldritch Knights have mostly the same spells as a Wizard, but less capacity to cast them, so they're a type of sword mage with big emphasis on the sword, which they can mix with casting, giving them the ability to strike and cast cantrips at the same time around when Wizards just start fireballing everything in sight.
I don't think there's any problem with these themes, and they add magic to non-magic classes, just as some magic classes get more combat oriented sub-classes (College of Swords for Bards, Elven Swordmage for Wizard etc.).
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
My take on this is that the martial classes that master these forms of magic are able to do so because there is something specific and unique about them that makes it so they are only learnable by these classes. That's how I explain it in my campaigns, at least. It's the same reason why Paladins and Rangers have unique magical powers, they have something unique about their style of martial combat that allows them to use their type of magic.
As Sposta said, there are magical subclasses for every class in the game. Barbarians have Wild Soul, Totem, Storm, and Zealot paths. Fighters have Arcane Archers, Echo Knights, Eldritch Knights, Rune Knights, and Psychic Warriors. All monks have some magical powers, certain subclasses with more than others (4 Elements, Shadow, Sun Soul, and Astral Self). Rogues have Arcane Tricksters and Phantom Rogues. Every one of these subclass have features specific to them that no one else gets.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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