I was just thinking, with how WotC is using proficiency bonus more, and monks needing DEX, WIS, and CON so much, would it have been a good idea if they made unarmored defense 10+DEX MOD+PB instead of WIS?
Would give max AC of 21 instead of 20 with no magic items but would start off lower then if you took 16 in both DEX and WIS.
Not saying it needs to change. Just something I thought about recently.
On the one hand, that would generate a bunch of broken 1-level dips into monk. On the other hand, we already have that problem with warlock and cleric, so I don't know how bad that would be. On the gripping hand, monks are intended to be wisdom-dependent, so I think reducing their dependence on wisdom is bad form. A better solution is making them less Constitution-dependent. For example, you could allow Monks to spend 1 ki point when making a Constitution saving throw to instead make a Wisdom saving throw.
The way to make monks less con dependent is to up their hit die. Call me crazy but I think they should get a d12. Monks spend all of their lives in no armor, honing their bodies to perfection as both a defensive and offensive tool. That screams d12 to me.
I wouldn't want to change the dex/wis dynamic personally. It's very monk. If you lift up other parts of the class around it then the juice becomes more and more worth the squeeze. Like the paladin with str/cha.
Monks are all about the body and health. They get immunity to disease and poison. Can end certain mental conditions at will. Can heal themselves in combat.
But get a d8 hit die. Yeah, ok.
They should have at least a d10 like any other fighter-type.
Monks are glass cannons making them more survivable would make them overpowered. The two most common statements abouyt monks is they are the weakest class in the game (with the possible exception of ranger) and they are overpowered.
If the stunning strike hits home a monk can completely lock out the most dangerous threat (possibly more than 1). The DM of the game my (level 18 open hand) monk house rules that stunning strike can only be used on non-stunned creatures for that reason.
Making unarmored defence 10+DEX MOD+PB completely overpowers single level dips in cleric or warlock and make strength build even less desireable
A class that normally wears studded leather with a single level dip goes from 12+dex to 10+dex+PB at 9th level that is a +2 increase to AC and a +4 at level 16
A level 9 sorcerer only knows 10 spells, taking a level of monk allows him to swap out mage armor, improve his AC and effectively gain a 1st level spell slot
A Paladin / Fighter instead of going strength and wearing heavy armor will want to go dex. At low levels it is the same viable option is is at present but once he gets dex to +5 unarmored defence beats plate by level 13 he has the same AC asplate an shield but can use a two handed weapon for extra damage.
Giving a monk a d12 (or even a d10) would make a monk overpowered and something would need ot be taken off elsewhere.
As my monk was levelling up I was really looking forward to getting quivering palm but I have found empty body the really powerfull late game mopnk feature. Resistance to all damage except force, and invisibility so you are less likely to get hit massivly increases your survivalility (and invisibilty is also nice for your chances to hit). It would be nice if a monk could expend 2 ki to get the resistance to damage at a lower level but I am not sure what I would take out to compensate for that (maybe put it in at 5, push stunning strike to 7 evasion/stillness of mind to 10 and purity of body back to 13).
Monks are very MAD but not just due to the AC problem....they rely on a lot of core features tied to WIS. Stunning DC becomes incredibly important later on as creatures have meteoric rises in CON saves.
A lot of class features also rely on your WIS score so you have to keep it moving upwards to keep competitive.
It also creates a problem as it pretty much means you cannot build a STR monk unless you have some way to account for AC (Tortle basically).
Pretty much every other martial has the option to go STR as they can make DEX 14 and use medium armor....except monk.
Its really the only class that I rarely take feats on (unless a generous DM gives us one at the start...thanks Mike!) as I feel like not maxing DEX and WIS just makes me feel....weak.
I think monk is fine as a monoclass, and the MADness is not the only reason it's not a great multiclass. But if I were going to change unarmored defense, I'd make it 10+WIS+PB. This would make STR/WIS builds viable which I think would open up some new archetypes.
After playing a high level monk, I don't think they really need bigger hit die. Their defensive capabilities are insane at high levels. Between Evasion, Empty Body, and the absolutely bonkers Diamond Soul, I'm pretty sure I can outlast every other PC in my party. I think the lower hp is also intentional to reinforce a monk's role on the battlefield - you're not supposed to stand there and take hits like a paladin. You're supposed to be a skirmisher, flanking the enemy and running down high value targets.
Why not give the monk an extra ASI like a rogue? That would partially mitigate the MAD. There aren’t really any feats that push it over the top. Maybe even at level 10 exactly like the rogue to incentivize staying in?
Why not give the monk an extra ASI like a rogue? That would partially mitigate the MAD. There aren’t really any feats that push it over the top. Maybe even at level 10 exactly like the rogue to incentivize staying in?
I like this idea. It would help with get their DEX and WIS both up for AC, to hit and damage rolls, and WIS based abilities sooner, if you want or get a feat without too much worry about putting yourself behind
Why not give the monk an extra ASI like a rogue? That would partially mitigate the MAD. There aren’t really any feats that push it over the top. Maybe even at level 10 exactly like the rogue to incentivize staying in?
Here's something you have to understand about the "MADness" of Monks. That Madness is what they have in place of gear reliance that other classes have. That Rogue needs Leather Armor. It needs a weapon. it needs to consider magical versions of them. That's ignoring other potential gear that they might need that the monk can ignore. The Monk on the other hand has a completely optional magical weapon need and needs no armor to worry about. It's guaranteed to get it's armor increases as it levels up and can focus on other kinds of magical items that come up and such.
now Their madness can affect a few other things, yes. Which is unfortunate because it would be nice to get a few more feats on them. But at the same time. they can choose to not quite max things out as much or so quickly and thus pick up the various things certain feats might give them and unless your going to be playing in tier 4 content there is not necessarily the need to have that maximum value.
im in the belief that the monk is a “glass half empty”. Yea, the monks features are self contained with their feature gains, but so is every class. The mundane equipment that other classes use don’t seem to limit them in anyway. I don’t see the monk being more useful than other classes if you take away their basic equipment as a strong indicator of the monks worth. Perhaps in a specific campaign where equipment is scarce they would shine, but the monk would also be ****** a bit if they didn’t have access to monk weapons.
a monk “not needing” equipment or items has lead to a sort of “out of sight out of mind” experience with my group. We’ve had 4 different players try and make 4 different monks with different subclasses. None of the players enjoyed the experience, 3 of the PCs died and one was basically force retired because the player hated the experience so much.
The notion of monks not needing to focus on mundane equipment and focus on magic items seems like a weird point to make, as magic items cant be focused on without DM fiat anyways. I also have a hard time conceptualizing a campaign that has no mundane resources available, but players are free to focus on magic item acquisition.
then there’s the fact that there aren’t too many magic items out there for a monk to make use of naturally. Sure the DM can homebrew up some things, but that requires more time and dedication on the DMs part to make the class keep up with the plethora of options available for pretty much every other class.
all that being said, I’m playing another monk the very next campaign I’m playing in. It’s mechanically the class I dislike the most, but I’m trying to break out of my comfort zone.
Why not give the monk an extra ASI like a rogue? That would partially mitigate the MAD. There aren’t really any feats that push it over the top. Maybe even at level 10 exactly like the rogue to incentivize staying in?
Here's something you have to understand about the "MADness" of Monks. That Madness is what they have in place of gear reliance that other classes have. That Rogue needs Leather Armor. It needs a weapon. it needs to consider magical versions of them. That's ignoring other potential gear that they might need that the monk can ignore. The Monk on the other hand has a completely optional magical weapon need and needs no armor to worry about. It's guaranteed to get it's armor increases as it levels up and can focus on other kinds of magical items that come up and such.
now Their madness can affect a few other things, yes. Which is unfortunate because it would be nice to get a few more feats on them. But at the same time. they can choose to not quite max things out as much or so quickly and thus pick up the various things certain feats might give them and unless your going to be playing in tier 4 content there is not necessarily the need to have that maximum value.
Sure, monks don’t have as much reliance on gear, but basically the other classes get their gear as their starting equipment. And is upgrading from leather to studded leather or scale to half plate or plate that much of a burden? Unless you are playing a very restricted campaign or starting out as a prisoner, Skyrim style, it really isn’t an issue.
Magic gear is up to the DM but it seems typically not a struggle to get basic items. Sure if you’re 10th level and the DM gives out zero magic you might be better off as a monk fighting the resistant to non magic damage creature. Don’t forget, unless you’re Kensei, only your unarmed attacks bypass resistances at 6th level, not your monk weapons.
Why not give the monk an extra ASI like a rogue? That would partially mitigate the MAD. There aren’t really any feats that push it over the top. Maybe even at level 10 exactly like the rogue to incentivize staying in?
Here's something you have to understand about the "MADness" of Monks. That Madness is what they have in place of gear reliance that other classes have. That Rogue needs Leather Armor. It needs a weapon. it needs to consider magical versions of them. That's ignoring other potential gear that they might need that the monk can ignore. The Monk on the other hand has a completely optional magical weapon need and needs no armor to worry about. It's guaranteed to get it's armor increases as it levels up and can focus on other kinds of magical items that come up and such.
now Their madness can affect a few other things, yes. Which is unfortunate because it would be nice to get a few more feats on them. But at the same time. they can choose to not quite max things out as much or so quickly and thus pick up the various things certain feats might give them and unless your going to be playing in tier 4 content there is not necessarily the need to have that maximum value.
Sure, monks don’t have as much reliance on gear, but basically the other classes get their gear as their starting equipment. And is upgrading from leather to studded leather or scale to half plate or plate that much of a burden? Unless you are playing a very restricted campaign or starting out as a prisoner, Skyrim style, it really isn’t an issue.
Magic gear is up to the DM but it seems typically not a struggle to get basic items. Sure if you’re 10th level and the DM gives out zero magic you might be better off as a monk fighting the resistant to non magic damage creature. Don’t forget, unless you’re Kensei, only your unarmed attacks bypass resistances at 6th level, not your monk weapons.
They get some gear. But for most classes it does not even come close to being the optimal gear for them. Nor does the magic items that they find necessarily means they are the optimal things for your builds either. Unless you have a DM that only caters in magic items that are perfect for your builds. Some few do but many do not. And most Modules do not.
So trying to play off that you get starting gear like it fixes all your issue is a smoke screen. It lessens the impact a bit but it far from covers the need to be on the lookout and put a lot of your spending power towards equipment for most other classes. Which is something that the Monk just doesn't really have to do. And this is all without playing the kind of restricted playstyle that your trying to suggest. This is true just of normal play. The kind of style your suggesting is the only time that it matters just highlights the issue even more.
I also don't work under the illusion that a monk is only dealing proper damage with a weapon in their hand so I'm not forgetting what it applies to. And even the Kensei which is focused in weapons does not actually need to worry overly much about finding particular pieces of gear. Because not only do they have their fists to fall back on in tier 2 if it becomes necessary because they are fighting the rare enemy that does have resistance to non-magical weapons. But they also eventually get a class feature that forgoes the need for magical weapons at higher level as well. thus making magical weapons primarily just a luxury and only really something to go after if they have strong additional powers to consider.
MAD classes are specifically designed that way to emphasize the trade off vs SAD classes. MAD classes typically have to invest more into ASIs than SAD, but they also have overpowered abilities and ample options to play with when they do max out that second stat.
Its risky to mess with this formula, so be ready to justify it to the PCs playing Fighters and other SAD classes when you adjust the system to allow for this kind of power creep etc.
I was just thinking, with how WotC is using proficiency bonus more, and monks needing DEX, WIS, and CON so much, would it have been a good idea if they made unarmored defense 10+DEX MOD+PB instead of WIS?
Would give max AC of 21 instead of 20 with no magic items but would start off lower then if you took 16 in both DEX and WIS.
Not saying it needs to change. Just something I thought about recently.
Any thoughts?
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
On the one hand, that would generate a bunch of broken 1-level dips into monk. On the other hand, we already have that problem with warlock and cleric, so I don't know how bad that would be. On the gripping hand, monks are intended to be wisdom-dependent, so I think reducing their dependence on wisdom is bad form. A better solution is making them less Constitution-dependent. For example, you could allow Monks to spend 1 ki point when making a Constitution saving throw to instead make a Wisdom saving throw.
The way to make monks less con dependent is to up their hit die. Call me crazy but I think they should get a d12. Monks spend all of their lives in no armor, honing their bodies to perfection as both a defensive and offensive tool. That screams d12 to me.
I wouldn't want to change the dex/wis dynamic personally. It's very monk. If you lift up other parts of the class around it then the juice becomes more and more worth the squeeze. Like the paladin with str/cha.
Monks are all about the body and health. They get immunity to disease and poison. Can end certain mental conditions at will. Can heal themselves in combat.
But get a d8 hit die. Yeah, ok.
They should have at least a d10 like any other fighter-type.
Monks are glass cannons making them more survivable would make them overpowered. The two most common statements abouyt monks is they are the weakest class in the game (with the possible exception of ranger) and they are overpowered.
If the stunning strike hits home a monk can completely lock out the most dangerous threat (possibly more than 1). The DM of the game my (level 18 open hand) monk house rules that stunning strike can only be used on non-stunned creatures for that reason.
Making unarmored defence 10+DEX MOD+PB completely overpowers single level dips in cleric or warlock and make strength build even less desireable
Giving a monk a d12 (or even a d10) would make a monk overpowered and something would need ot be taken off elsewhere.
As my monk was levelling up I was really looking forward to getting quivering palm but I have found empty body the really powerfull late game mopnk feature. Resistance to all damage except force, and invisibility so you are less likely to get hit massivly increases your survivalility (and invisibilty is also nice for your chances to hit). It would be nice if a monk could expend 2 ki to get the resistance to damage at a lower level but I am not sure what I would take out to compensate for that (maybe put it in at 5, push stunning strike to 7 evasion/stillness of mind to 10 and purity of body back to 13).
Some very good points all around
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Monks are very MAD but not just due to the AC problem....they rely on a lot of core features tied to WIS. Stunning DC becomes incredibly important later on as creatures have meteoric rises in CON saves.
A lot of class features also rely on your WIS score so you have to keep it moving upwards to keep competitive.
It also creates a problem as it pretty much means you cannot build a STR monk unless you have some way to account for AC (Tortle basically).
Pretty much every other martial has the option to go STR as they can make DEX 14 and use medium armor....except monk.
Its really the only class that I rarely take feats on (unless a generous DM gives us one at the start...thanks Mike!) as I feel like not maxing DEX and WIS just makes me feel....weak.
I think monk is fine as a monoclass, and the MADness is not the only reason it's not a great multiclass. But if I were going to change unarmored defense, I'd make it 10+WIS+PB. This would make STR/WIS builds viable which I think would open up some new archetypes.
After playing a high level monk, I don't think they really need bigger hit die. Their defensive capabilities are insane at high levels. Between Evasion, Empty Body, and the absolutely bonkers Diamond Soul, I'm pretty sure I can outlast every other PC in my party. I think the lower hp is also intentional to reinforce a monk's role on the battlefield - you're not supposed to stand there and take hits like a paladin. You're supposed to be a skirmisher, flanking the enemy and running down high value targets.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Why not give the monk an extra ASI like a rogue? That would partially mitigate the MAD. There aren’t really any feats that push it over the top. Maybe even at level 10 exactly like the rogue to incentivize staying in?
I like this idea. It would help with get their DEX and WIS both up for AC, to hit and damage rolls, and WIS based abilities sooner, if you want or get a feat without too much worry about putting yourself behind
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Here's something you have to understand about the "MADness" of Monks. That Madness is what they have in place of gear reliance that other classes have. That Rogue needs Leather Armor. It needs a weapon. it needs to consider magical versions of them. That's ignoring other potential gear that they might need that the monk can ignore. The Monk on the other hand has a completely optional magical weapon need and needs no armor to worry about. It's guaranteed to get it's armor increases as it levels up and can focus on other kinds of magical items that come up and such.
now Their madness can affect a few other things, yes. Which is unfortunate because it would be nice to get a few more feats on them. But at the same time. they can choose to not quite max things out as much or so quickly and thus pick up the various things certain feats might give them and unless your going to be playing in tier 4 content there is not necessarily the need to have that maximum value.
I suppose in that regard it’s about perspective.
im in the belief that the monk is a “glass half empty”. Yea, the monks features are self contained with their feature gains, but so is every class. The mundane equipment that other classes use don’t seem to limit them in anyway. I don’t see the monk being more useful than other classes if you take away their basic equipment as a strong indicator of the monks worth. Perhaps in a specific campaign where equipment is scarce they would shine, but the monk would also be ****** a bit if they didn’t have access to monk weapons.
a monk “not needing” equipment or items has lead to a sort of “out of sight out of mind” experience with my group. We’ve had 4 different players try and make 4 different monks with different subclasses. None of the players enjoyed the experience, 3 of the PCs died and one was basically force retired because the player hated the experience so much.
The notion of monks not needing to focus on mundane equipment and focus on magic items seems like a weird point to make, as magic items cant be focused on without DM fiat anyways. I also have a hard time conceptualizing a campaign that has no mundane resources available, but players are free to focus on magic item acquisition.
then there’s the fact that there aren’t too many magic items out there for a monk to make use of naturally. Sure the DM can homebrew up some things, but that requires more time and dedication on the DMs part to make the class keep up with the plethora of options available for pretty much every other class.
all that being said, I’m playing another monk the very next campaign I’m playing in. It’s mechanically the class I dislike the most, but I’m trying to break out of my comfort zone.
Sure, monks don’t have as much reliance on gear, but basically the other classes get their gear as their starting equipment. And is upgrading from leather to studded leather or scale to half plate or plate that much of a burden? Unless you are playing a very restricted campaign or starting out as a prisoner, Skyrim style, it really isn’t an issue.
Magic gear is up to the DM but it seems typically not a struggle to get basic items. Sure if you’re 10th level and the DM gives out zero magic you might be better off as a monk fighting the resistant to non magic damage creature. Don’t forget, unless you’re Kensei, only your unarmed attacks bypass resistances at 6th level, not your monk weapons.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
They get some gear. But for most classes it does not even come close to being the optimal gear for them. Nor does the magic items that they find necessarily means they are the optimal things for your builds either. Unless you have a DM that only caters in magic items that are perfect for your builds. Some few do but many do not. And most Modules do not.
So trying to play off that you get starting gear like it fixes all your issue is a smoke screen. It lessens the impact a bit but it far from covers the need to be on the lookout and put a lot of your spending power towards equipment for most other classes. Which is something that the Monk just doesn't really have to do. And this is all without playing the kind of restricted playstyle that your trying to suggest. This is true just of normal play. The kind of style your suggesting is the only time that it matters just highlights the issue even more.
I also don't work under the illusion that a monk is only dealing proper damage with a weapon in their hand so I'm not forgetting what it applies to. And even the Kensei which is focused in weapons does not actually need to worry overly much about finding particular pieces of gear. Because not only do they have their fists to fall back on in tier 2 if it becomes necessary because they are fighting the rare enemy that does have resistance to non-magical weapons. But they also eventually get a class feature that forgoes the need for magical weapons at higher level as well. thus making magical weapons primarily just a luxury and only really something to go after if they have strong additional powers to consider.
MAD classes are specifically designed that way to emphasize the trade off vs SAD classes. MAD classes typically have to invest more into ASIs than SAD, but they also have overpowered abilities and ample options to play with when they do max out that second stat.
Its risky to mess with this formula, so be ready to justify it to the PCs playing Fighters and other SAD classes when you adjust the system to allow for this kind of power creep etc.