Honestly the Monk should not only get weapon masteries but get to apply them to their unarmed attacks.
Am I crazy or does that fit the monk?
It could, but mechanically Monk is fine without it, also Unarmed Strikes have the kind of tactical options that you can get from Masteries in the Shove and Grapple options. Monks as they stand in the 2024 system are the best Grapple class already. Now, when and if they update the Kensei subclass I would really hope to see some kind of Weapon Mastery. My idea is a small list of Masteries they could apply to any weapon with Focus expenditure.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
However, it would be interesting if the monk could access the Shove and Grapple properties of the Unarmed Strike rules without having to sacrifice their Damage, or at least partially.
Example: 1 for Grapple, 1 for knock down (Shove), and no limit for push (Shove). However, it is ridiculous to have to make a strength or dexterity check to push someone 5 feet when weapon mastery pushes the opponent 10 feet without a saving throw.
However, it would be interesting if the monk could access the Shove and Grapple properties of the Unarmed Strike rules without having to sacrifice their Damage, or at least partially.
The Grapper feat gives you a free "grapple" on one attack. Tavern Brawler gives you a free "shove". It would be nice if it was baked-into the class, but there are ways to get there.
There are some differences, but yes, it is possible to access some of the techniques through feats. However, as these are different, they do not overlap.
Grapper feat only functions during the attack action, so it cannot be used during bonus actions or reactions.
Tavern Brawler only allows a 5-foot push and not "shove", but has no limits on target size and does not require saving throws.
If there were a feat like this, do you think it could be an alternative solution? Would you use it?
Unarmed Master (homebrew)
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Mastery Property. Your training in unarmed martial arts allows you to use one of the Mastery properties listed below, at your choice. Each time you finish a long rest, you can change your choice of mastery properties.
Push. If you hit a creature with a unarmed attack, you can push the creature up to 10 feet straight away from yourself if it is Large or smaller.
Slow. If you hit a creature with a unarmed attack and deal damage to it, you can reduce its Speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. If the creature is hit more than once by weapons that have this property, the Speed reduction doesn’t exceed 10 feet.
Topple. If you hit a creature with a unarmed attack, you can force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 plus the ability modifier used to make the attack roll and your Proficiency Bonus). On a failed save, the creature has the Prone condition.
If there were this other talent, which would you prefer between the two? And why would that be better?
Unarmed Master (homebrew) v2
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike on your turn, you can inflict damage on the target and also Grapple, Push, or Topple it. You can only use this advantage once for each option (Grapple, Push, or Topple) in the same turn.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
Push. You can push the target 10 feet away from you. This push is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.
Topple. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw, or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals DC 8 plus the ability modifier used to make the attack roll and your Proficiency Bonus.
If there were a feat like this, do you think it could be an alternative solution? Would you use it?
Unarmed Master (homebrew)
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Mastery Property. Your training in unarmed martial arts allows you to use one of the Mastery properties listed below, at your choice. Each time you finish a long rest, you can change your choice of mastery properties.
Push. If you hit a creature with a unarmed attack, you can push the creature up to 10 feet straight away from yourself if it is Large or smaller.
Slow. If you hit a creature with a unarmed attack and deal damage to it, you can reduce its Speed by 10 feet until the start of your next turn. If the creature is hit more than once by weapons that have this property, the Speed reduction doesn’t exceed 10 feet.
Topple. If you hit a creature with a unarmed attack, you can force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 plus the ability modifier used to make the attack roll and your Proficiency Bonus). On a failed save, the creature has the Prone condition.
You can already push or topple with an unarmed strike, so this version lets you do things you can already do. The problem people have is you need to sacrifice doing damage to do it. (Or maybe you meant to allow damage on this one, it’s just not written as explicitly as the other.) So, given the choices, I’d say the second one comes closer to solving the problem people have. At least, as I understand the problem.
That said, I’ll reiterate that I don’t think monks need these. They already have more attacks, and as likely the only characters using unarmed strikes, are already the ones most likely to make use of shoving someone back or knocking them prone with an unarmed strike. Sacrificing one attack’s damage for a little battlefield control is what makes for an interesting tactical choice. A character shouldn’t able to do everything all the time. And the bigger issue here is folks seem to ignore stunning strike. Yes, it’s a limited resource ability and masteries are not. Though by the time you have it, you’ll pretty much be able to use it every round. And it’s more powerful than any mastery. Stunned creatures auto-fail any str or dex saves. So when you combine stunning strike with push and topple, it gets too strong.
That may be true, but have you noticed the limitations compared to weapon mastery? Shove includes Push and Topple, but they are extremely limited compared to the options offered by Weapons Mastery.
Push in “shove” only pushes 5 feet. (10 feet in WM)
Push in “shove” requires a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (at the target's choice). (no saving throw in WM)
Topple in “shove” also requires a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (chosen by the target). (only Constitution in WM)
Topple in “shove”requires a limitation on the size of the opponent (in WM it is not limited).
In Unarmed Strike, “Grapple” and “shove” require sacrificing damage to be used (no sacrifice in WM).
To calculate the DC of the specific “shove,” use the strength modifier (while WM uses the modifier used in the attack).
The only positive point is that you can choose between pushing 5 feet, knock down, grab, or cause damage, but 6 negative points is not insignificant, and the saving throw required for “shove” makes it practically useless.
Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.
If you hit a creature with this weapon, you can force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 plus the ability modifier used to make the attack roll and your Proficiency Bonus). On a failed save, the creature has the Prone condition.
Minor issue on point 6. Monk (When unarmored, using only Monk weapons or unarmed, not wielding a shield) also gets to use the modifier used in the Attack to calculate the Unarmed Strike/Shove DC as part of the Martial Arts/Dexterous Attacks Feature
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As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Yes and no. You can simply use the dexterity modifier instead of the strength modifier, but not the modifier used for the attack. In the case of a monk who uses his wisdom as an attack modifier, such as the old Astral Self, it would not use wisdom but rather his dexterity, which is not such a big change. But that's not the point. What I want to point out are the limitations of the rules included in Unarmed Strike compared to those in Mastery Properties.
Dexterous Attacks. You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Monk weapons. In addition, when you use the Grapple or Shove option of your Unarmed Strike, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to determine the save DC.
That may be true, but have you noticed the limitations compared to weapon mastery? Shove includes Push and Topple, but they are extremely limited compared to the options offered by Weapons Mastery.
Push in “shove” only pushes 5 feet. (10 feet in WM)
Push in “shove” requires a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (at the target's choice). (no saving throw in WM)
Topple in “shove” also requires a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (chosen by the target). (only Constitution in WM)
Topple in “shove”requires a limitation on the size of the opponent (in WM it is not limited).
In Unarmed Strike, “Grapple” and “shove” require sacrificing damage to be used (no sacrifice in WM).
To calculate the DC of the specific “shove,” use the strength modifier (while WM uses the modifier used in the attack).
The only positive point is that you can choose between pushing 5 feet, knock down, grab, or cause damage, but 6 negative points is not insignificant, and the saving throw required for “shove” makes it practically useless.
Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.
If you hit a creature with this weapon, you can force the creature to make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 plus the ability modifier used to make the attack roll and your Proficiency Bonus). On a failed save, the creature has the Prone condition.
Of course there’s limitations. Not everyone gets to do everything. No. 3 is not a limitation, it’s just a difference. It will be situationally easier or harder depending on the enemy.
And No. 6 is not a limitation, it a plain benefit for a monk who will have a higher dex score than str. What a ‘14 monk may have done is irrelevant, as in ‘14 no one had any masteries.
It’s also a bit of a strange comparison as a character trying to either push or topple with a weapon mastery has to be willing to juggle different weapons to pull this off. A monk can freely and easily switch between the different choices. And all the push weapons and 2 of the 5 (well, maybe 1.5/5 since lance is kind of wierd) topple weapons require both hands to use. The monk could do its version with no hands using only 1 foot, heck just use a headbutt, as an unarmed strike can use any part of the body.
And monks are doing this without any armor as they run up walls. Monks have plenty of tools.
So you're saying that a saving throw where the enemy can decide to overcome it with strength or dexterity is comparable to a saving throw on constitution? Do you know that 90% of every being in the game has at least one of these characteristics developed almost at its maximum? And I want to remind you that this is only to push the opponent 5 feet or to topple or to grapple them, but without doing damage.
So, we can say that Push can be only used on allies. I would just like to point out that Unarmed Strike can be used by everyone, and since it does not cause damage, all the more reason.
Another detail is that everyone can use “shove” even if their hands are occupied, while grapple requires at least one free hand.
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you. Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
Damage. You make an attack roll against the target. Your bonus to the roll equals your Strength modifier plus your Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, the target takes Bludgeoning damage equal to 1 plus your Strength modifier.
Grapple. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or it has the Grappled condition. The DC for the saving throw and any escape attempts equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This grapple is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you and if you have a hand free to grab it.
Shove. The target must succeed on a Strength or Dexterity saving throw (it chooses which), or you either push it 5 feet away or cause it to have the Prone condition. The DC for the saving throw equals 8 plus your Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus. This shove is possible only if the target is no more than one size larger than you.
Do you know why monks are almost the only ones who perform unarmed attacks? Because they have potential damage. To be precise, there are also bards, fighters, and some species that receive an unarmed damage boost. Unfortunately, the absurd thing is that Unarmed Strike forces the player to sacrifice the same damage in order to use “shove,” making it more useful to classes that don't deal damage with unarmed attacks. To clarify, “shove” is only useful for moving an ally, and the chances of knocking an enemy prone are too low to sacrifice damage. So the only thing that really benefits the monk in Unarmed Strike is “grapple”, although this also has the same disadvantage of allowing the opponent to choose whether to use strength or dexterity for the saving throw.
Benefit is a big word, because grappling is a style of play in itself, and to use it well requires feats and therefore sacrifices, and not everyone likes this style of play.
Essentially, it forces the creature to attack the monk or free itself from the “grappling conduction” in order to move. But only with the “Grappler” feat does the monk receive an advantage in attacking. So in the end, Unarmed Strike is not used, but the feat “Grappler - Punch and Grab" is used.
Minor issue on point 6. Monk (When unarmored, using only Monk weapons or unarmed, not wielding a shield) also gets to use the modifier used in the Attack to calculate the Unarmed Strike/Shove DC as part of the Martial Arts/Dexterous Attacks Feature
Specifically they have be "melee". Simple and martial ones with the light property.
There's no such thing as a Monk Weapon that isn't a melee weapon. Monk Weapons are always melee weapons, it's explicitly in the definition of Monk Weapons in the PHB, under the Martial Arts Feature.
Your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use your Unarmed Strike and Monk weapons, which are the following:
Simple Melee weapons
Martial Melee weapons that have the Light property
This differs from the Monk Weapon Proficiencies, which does include the light simple and martial ranged weapons.
Weapon Proficiencies
Simple weapons and Martial weapons that have the Light property
As such , the Dart, Light Crossbow, Shortbow, Sling and Hand Crossbow are all weapons Monks get proficiency with, but are not Monk Weapons.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Honestly the Monk should not only get weapon masteries but get to apply them to their unarmed attacks.
Am I crazy or does that fit the monk?
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Monster: Osprey Feat: Skill Mastery–Animal Handler (Provides DCs for training animals applicable to those with and without this feat)
It could, but mechanically Monk is fine without it, also Unarmed Strikes have the kind of tactical options that you can get from Masteries in the Shove and Grapple options. Monks as they stand in the 2024 system are the best Grapple class already. Now, when and if they update the Kensei subclass I would really hope to see some kind of Weapon Mastery. My idea is a small list of Masteries they could apply to any weapon with Focus expenditure.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
It does not fit the Monk at all which is why it was removed from the UA
However, it would be interesting if the monk could access the Shove and Grapple properties of the Unarmed Strike rules without having to sacrifice their Damage, or at least partially.
Example: 1 for Grapple, 1 for knock down (Shove), and no limit for push (Shove). However, it is ridiculous to have to make a strength or dexterity check to push someone 5 feet when weapon mastery pushes the opponent 10 feet without a saving throw.
The Grapper feat gives you a free "grapple" on one attack. Tavern Brawler gives you a free "shove". It would be nice if it was baked-into the class, but there are ways to get there.
There are some differences, but yes, it is possible to access some of the techniques through feats. However, as these are different, they do not overlap.
Grapper feat only functions during the attack action, so it cannot be used during bonus actions or reactions.
Tavern Brawler only allows a 5-foot push and not "shove", but has no limits on target size and does not require saving throws.
If there were a feat like this, do you think it could be an alternative solution? Would you use it?
Unarmed Master (homebrew)
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Mastery Property. Your training in unarmed martial arts allows you to use one of the Mastery properties listed below, at your choice. Each time you finish a long rest, you can change your choice of mastery properties.
If there were this other talent, which would you prefer between the two? And why would that be better?
Unarmed Master (homebrew) v2
Ability Score Increase. Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
When you hit a creature with an Unarmed Strike on your turn, you can inflict damage on the target and also Grapple, Push, or Topple it. You can only use this advantage once for each option (Grapple, Push, or Topple) in the same turn.
You can already push or topple with an unarmed strike, so this version lets you do things you can already do. The problem people have is you need to sacrifice doing damage to do it. (Or maybe you meant to allow damage on this one, it’s just not written as explicitly as the other.) So, given the choices, I’d say the second one comes closer to solving the problem people have. At least, as I understand the problem.
That said, I’ll reiterate that I don’t think monks need these. They already have more attacks, and as likely the only characters using unarmed strikes, are already the ones most likely to make use of shoving someone back or knocking them prone with an unarmed strike. Sacrificing one attack’s damage for a little battlefield control is what makes for an interesting tactical choice. A character shouldn’t able to do everything all the time.
And the bigger issue here is folks seem to ignore stunning strike. Yes, it’s a limited resource ability and masteries are not. Though by the time you have it, you’ll pretty much be able to use it every round. And it’s more powerful than any mastery. Stunned creatures auto-fail any str or dex saves. So when you combine stunning strike with push and topple, it gets too strong.
I agree, Monk doesn't need this. They are already the only class who can Grapple+Prone in one turn right at level 1.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
That may be true, but have you noticed the limitations compared to weapon mastery?
Shove includes Push and Topple, but they are extremely limited compared to the options offered by Weapons Mastery.
The only positive point is that you can choose between pushing 5 feet, knock down, grab, or cause damage, but 6 negative points is not insignificant, and the saving throw required for “shove” makes it practically useless.
Minor issue on point 6. Monk (When unarmored, using only Monk weapons or unarmed, not wielding a shield) also gets to use the modifier used in the Attack to calculate the Unarmed Strike/Shove DC as part of the Martial Arts/Dexterous Attacks Feature
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Yes and no. You can simply use the dexterity modifier instead of the strength modifier, but not the modifier used for the attack. In the case of a monk who uses his wisdom as an attack modifier, such as the old Astral Self, it would not use wisdom but rather his dexterity, which is not such a big change. But that's not the point. What I want to point out are the limitations of the rules included in Unarmed Strike compared to those in Mastery Properties.
MONK CLASS
Dexterous Attacks. You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for the attack and damage rolls of your Unarmed Strikes and Monk weapons. In addition, when you use the Grapple or Shove option of your Unarmed Strike, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to determine the save DC.
Of course there’s limitations. Not everyone gets to do everything.
No. 3 is not a limitation, it’s just a difference. It will be situationally easier or harder depending on the enemy.
And No. 6 is not a limitation, it a plain benefit for a monk who will have a higher dex score than str. What a ‘14 monk may have done is irrelevant, as in ‘14 no one had any masteries.
It’s also a bit of a strange comparison as a character trying to either push or topple with a weapon mastery has to be willing to juggle different weapons to pull this off. A monk can freely and easily switch between the different choices.
And all the push weapons and 2 of the 5 (well, maybe 1.5/5 since lance is kind of wierd) topple weapons require both hands to use. The monk could do its version with no hands using only 1 foot, heck just use a headbutt, as an unarmed strike can use any part of the body.
And monks are doing this without any armor as they run up walls. Monks have plenty of tools.
So you're saying that a saving throw where the enemy can decide to overcome it with strength or dexterity is comparable to a saving throw on constitution? Do you know that 90% of every being in the game has at least one of these characteristics developed almost at its maximum? And I want to remind you that this is only to push the opponent 5 feet or to topple or to grapple them, but without doing damage.
So, we can say that Push can be only used on allies. I would just like to point out that Unarmed Strike can be used by everyone, and since it does not cause damage, all the more reason.
Another detail is that everyone can use “shove” even if their hands are occupied, while grapple requires at least one free hand.
Unarmed Strike
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, headbutt, or similar forceful blow. In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike—a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you. Whenever you use your Unarmed Strike, choose one of the following options for its effect.
I’m saying that different creatures are good at different saves, and so sometimes one version or the other might be more effective.
And, yes, anyone can make an unarmed strike. In actual play, it’s vanishingly rare that anyone other than a monk does.
Do you know why monks are almost the only ones who perform unarmed attacks? Because they have potential damage. To be precise, there are also bards, fighters, and some species that receive an unarmed damage boost. Unfortunately, the absurd thing is that Unarmed Strike forces the player to sacrifice the same damage in order to use “shove,” making it more useful to classes that don't deal damage with unarmed attacks. To clarify, “shove” is only useful for moving an ally, and the chances of knocking an enemy prone are too low to sacrifice damage. So the only thing that really benefits the monk in Unarmed Strike is “grapple”, although this also has the same disadvantage of allowing the opponent to choose whether to use strength or dexterity for the saving throw.
Benefit is a big word, because grappling is a style of play in itself, and to use it well requires feats and therefore sacrifices, and not everyone likes this style of play.
Essentially, it forces the creature to attack the monk or free itself from the “grappling conduction” in order to move. But only with the “Grappler” feat does the monk receive an advantage in attacking. So in the end, Unarmed Strike is not used, but the feat “Grappler - Punch and Grab" is used.
Specifically they have be "melee". Simple and martial ones with the light property.
There's no such thing as a Monk Weapon that isn't a melee weapon. Monk Weapons are always melee weapons, it's explicitly in the definition of Monk Weapons in the PHB, under the Martial Arts Feature.
This differs from the Monk Weapon Proficiencies, which does include the light simple and martial ranged weapons.
As such , the Dart, Light Crossbow, Shortbow, Sling and Hand Crossbow are all weapons Monks get proficiency with, but are not Monk Weapons.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage