in the sense that diamond soul is objectively several magnitudes better than the fighter's 13th level benefit of a single additional usage of indomidable and the slippery mind feature for the rouge gained at 15th level, as well as the 14th level benefit for an non-multiclass cleric whose domain is not combat focused (in the sense that you gain nothing unless you happen to be fighting a lot of mummies and wights, but maybe that is just poor design), so we get this one class feature that is quite a bit more powerful than comparable features at similar levels, and then the level after that we get timeless body, this feature that is very fun RP wise but that has little to no practical use unless you want to go underwater or into space or if you tend to use the survival ruleset. I have no idea what i am trying to say here, just seems a bit odd, like the 15th level feature is a little bit subpar to compensate for how the 14th level feature is a bit too good for its level?
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Yes. But The Rogue is getting one of the most common saves as a proficiency finally. Has Had Evasion for a long time (much like the monk) and eventually picks up an abiilty where it's very hard to have advantage against them at all by level 18. On top of that they get blindsense at level 14, it may only be out to 10' but that still short circuits things like melee backstabs from invisibility.
The Warrior on the other hand is often built to withstand phsycial attacks to a great degree and at 14th level they pick up yet another ASI which can be used for whatever your build desires including proficiency in saving throws. And at 15th level they pick up yet another Archetype ability to hopefully make them even better at whatever chosen type of warrior that they are. Some of which are very strong and nice to have. Others that extend things like indomitable feature to others in the group should they fail as well. Or just plain give you more uses of parts of your kit just in general.
So it's not exactly without it's balance when it's compared to one Strong Defensive ability, which defensive abilities tend to be rather specific and spread out on the monk to begin with, combined with not just one but actually two ribbon abilities whose primary usage is only for flavor and to facilitate RP in general with little actual mechanical benefit outside of usually very rare circumstances.
Well, Monks are also kindasorta designed in a way that requires more player awareness and management.
Fighters get a bagillian attacks without having to spend any resources, have a d10 Hit Die, and can utilize the most powerful weapons and armor in the game. And just in case that wasn’t enough, Action Surge b*tches!
Rogues do obscene amounts of damage with their single attack, are basically good at absolutely everything, and they can primarily work from a distance and with cover so they don’t get hit so often. And if that wasn’t enough, can do it all with a single Ability score, and absolutely no resource management to speak of other than ammunition.
Monks basically need 3 high Abilities scores to function, are designed for melee so they get hit a lot but still only have a d8 Hit Die, but cannot take advantage of Armor to offset that whatsoever, they cannot use any of the most powerful magic weapons, and just about everything they can possibly ever do requires constant resources management. Considering all of that, Diamond Soul doesn’t seem too powerful to me at all.
As for Timeless Body, the only problem with that as far as I can see is that the part of the game that feature is designed to impact is the part of the game that most players don’t want to bother with and most DMs don’t enforce (probably because their players don’t want to bother with it): Resources. Most players don’t care to be bothered tracking how many days of rations they have or when they’ll need more, or how many days of potable water the party has in hand. (They don’t want to count ammunition either, but that matters in combat so it still gets done by many people.) If one actually pays attention, the “average” adventurer never drinks anything but ale, only eats before a major battle, and only if someone can cast [Tooltip Not Found], and never ever has to pee or poo. Also, adventurers are apparently immune to anything that could cause runny noses or congestion, and all food-born pathogens. Never in the history of 5e has an adventure ever had the trots or the sniffles. And Adventurers, much like high school girls, always stay the same age. When things like food, water, aging, and resistance to common illnesses are completely ignored, features like Timeless Body have little relevance.
Never in the history of 5e has an adventure ever had the trots
I'm dying. Roll for traveler's diarrhea.
I think that was a good summary IamSposta. The monk is basically doing everything on hard mode. It's okay to give them an ability that is objectively better than similar abilities that other classes get. It's about context.
Well Sposta. Now you are starting to hit on why I like Spells like Contagion and Bestow Curse on some builds. Because it gives adventurer's and enemies all of these illnesses and debilitations that they just tend to not have most of the time. I'm also not above letting players catch Diseases when I DM and there are some horrible ones of those. But it is a tool that is way too under utilized.
The Monk class overall seems weird from a balance perspective. No other martial class has to give up "points" to attack more often, or has to focus on 3 different ability scores to be viable, or be so mechanically limited in theme (arguably the Paladin is also theme-limited, but it's a bit more open than the Monk).
Diamond Soul is mechanically one of the best abilities in the game, but it's so late-game it isn't that notable (especially due to the fact that 3 types of saving throws are useless most of the time). It is way, way, way better than Indomitable, due to the ability to use it 20 times a short rest at level 20, but it takes ki points. This would be like asking a fighter to give up some of their Action Surge and Second Wind in order to do Indomitable more often.
Timeless Body will probably not affect the campaign at all, if you're like the majority of tables.
I actually get annoyed whenever a DM tells me not to bother tracking rations or water. Way back in the ‘90s during 2nd edition one of my characters got into a jam and dehydrated to death shortly before the party would have found him. One of my characters froze to death for lack of a blanket. In the very first half of the first real dungeon I ever crawled, 5/9 of the party died because of all of those effing ceiling traps, wouldjajus’stopalready!! After those experiences, pretty much absolutely every character I have ever created has always carried 2 Waterskins, a Blanket and a Bedroll, a Sack and a Backpack, a tinderbox (even if they could do without), a mess kit, and a (preferably collapsing) 10-foot pole whenever possible. I like it when that stuff matters. 🤷♂️
I don't track it at my tables because it doesn't add any fun to the game for me or my players. It's just work. Sometimes I require them to spend a certain amount of gold for rations and other supplies before the start of a long quest just for realism, but otherwise my table ignores that kind of thing. Lots of other tables ignore it as well, which is why I said that Timeless Body probably won't matter at your table. YMMV, though.
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I don't track it at my tables because it doesn't add any fun to the game for me or my players. It's just work. Sometimes I require them to spend a certain amount of gold for rations and other supplies before the start of a long quest just for realism, but otherwise my table ignores that kind of thing. Lots of other tables ignore it as well, which is why I said that Timeless Body probably won't matter at your table. YMMV, though.
somebody needs to find an abstraction or clever twist that makes keeping track of food and water / starving to death in the wilderness fun instead of just a chore, or to integrate it as a nessesary part in a greater system that is fun
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I don't track it at my tables because it doesn't add any fun to the game for me or my players. It's just work. Sometimes I require them to spend a certain amount of gold for rations and other supplies before the start of a long quest just for realism, but otherwise my table ignores that kind of thing. Lots of other tables ignore it as well, which is why I said that Timeless Body probably won't matter at your table. YMMV, though.
somebody needs to find an abstraction or clever twist that makes keeping track of food and water / starving to death in the wilderness fun instead of just a chore, or to integrate it as a nessesary part in a greater system that is fun
No. They just need to run for a group with the intention of making something like survival and/or potentially horror more of a focus of the game that they are running. Then things like that and the ring of sustenance and the like become suddenly invaluable. There are games that do this and there have been settings where they were vitally important in the past.
The Monk class overall seems weird from a balance perspective. No other martial class has to give up "points" to attack more often, or has to focus on 3 different ability scores to be viable, or be so mechanically limited in theme (arguably the Paladin is also theme-limited, but it's a bit more open than the Monk).
Every class has its unique aspects and the monk spending resources for extra attacks is one. (Only a warlock fwta apwll slots back afte a shoer rest, only a sorcerer can trade spewll slots for a different resource....) I would not say however that the monk is the oly martial class that needs to focus on 3 ability scores to be viable. Here ire themartial classes as I see them in decending order of MADness (I have left artificer out as it is so varied it may or may not be considered martial)
Barbarians need Dex and Con for AC (among other things) but most of the features only work for attack based on strength they absolutely have to focus on all three
Paladins, need con and strength (or dex) they can use their spell slots solely for smites and spells that do not rely on charisma but the you are then severly nerfing their auras and (if you get that far) cleansing touch, it is very suboptimal, I would say sub opimal to the point of being be is not viable to not also docus on charisma but you may disagree
Monks: You can build a monk that does not focus on con, such a monk used step of the wind or open hand technique to get away from the enemy after hitting them again it is suboptimal but I would say as viiable as a paladin that does not focus on charisma
Rangers: You can argue they are not viable no matter how many abilities they focus on! In a normal build you want to focus on Dex, ws and con but can get away with not focussing on wis or con if you are willing ot mak compromises
Fighters: Focus on 2 abilities nearly all the time
Rogues: Normally focus on dex and con but are less dependent on con than fighters.
The other thing in the monks favor here is the three ability they focus on are the three most important for all characters. Not only are they the three primary saving throws but wisdom and dexterity are used in the most important ability checks in the game (stealth and perception), dex also helps for initiative. The barbarian / Paladin who dumps wisdom can easily find himself charmed and attacking the other members of the party.
Yes, it is a "unique aspect" of the class, it's just very different from every other martial class in the game in a strange way. I didn't say that other martial classes don't like having good stats three different ability scores, I said that "No other martial class . . . has to focus on three different ability scores to be viable".
There's a huge difference between a Monk dumping one of their "Big Three Stats" (DEX, CON, WIS) and a Barbarian dumping one of their "Big Three Stats" (STR, CON, and DEX to an extent). If a barbarian dumps Dexterity (which is the least important of their big three stats) by having a +0 for DEX, all you need to do to not have an awful AC is either max out your CON or wear medium armor and hold a shield. This will at best give you an AC of 17 (20 CON, nomaj shield), or 19 at level 20 (CON 24, nomaj shield). If you don't want to rely on your CON for your AC, you could just take nomaj Half-Plate or Breastplate and nomaj shield to get an AC of 16. Hell, they don't even need that high of a Constitution score if they're using the medium armor and shield and have a decently high DEX score. Barbarians don't need a huge CON bonus, due to their d12 hit dice and rage's damage resistances, they just like having it so they can tank even more.
However, things are much worse for a Monk if they choose to dump one of their Big Three, even if it's the one their features don't mechanically rely on for effectiveness (CON, in this case). If a monk dumps CON, they are going to be very, very squishy, possibly even having less hit points that the party's cleric, warlock, or sorcerer, which is normally not a good strategy for a frontline character. If they dump CON, they have to make sure that their DEX and WIS are as high as humanly (demihumanly?) possible, because they know they can't take a hit, so they need to make sure they won't take most hits. Even if you can get a good AC (for a well designed monk, this is normally around 15 at level one), that doesn't protect you against saving throw effects and other features that straight up deal damage (a mage is the archnemesis of any monk with a low HP maximum).
Monks mechanically NEED high Dexterity and Wisdom scores. If they don't max those out, their attacks will miss more often, deal less damage on a hit, be less effective when using their Ki fueled features, and be taking a lot more hits than if they had maxed out their Dexterity and Wisdom. They don't have any way around this. They're bound to their Unarmored Defense and Ki features, while a Barbarian has several options to keep it functional, even if they dump one or two of their "Big Three Ability Scores".
(Side Note - Paladins are MAD to balance them out, Fighters and Rogues are as SAD as one can get in 5e, and Rangers are MAD because the designers thought that it needed to be similar to the paladin's MADness.)
tl;dr - Monks are much more MAD than other melee classes.
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I think you are exaggerating the difference between a monk and a barbarian or paladin.
I can see your point that a barbarian can wear medium armor and therefore can be viable with moderate dex.
You say a paladin is MAD to balance them out but give no reason why they are more MAD than a monk (which you claim to be much much more mad than other melee classes)
Most subclasses of monks only need Wisdom for AC and stunning strike I am not saying it is not a primary stat but it is more important than con on a barb.
A moderate con monk (not primary but not dumped say a +1 I agree -1 con for a monk like any other class is not viable) should not be a frontline character, they are a skirmisher in a similar to a melee rogue. They run in attack and run out again. There are pros and cons between the two, at higher levels monks have a greater speed so move further, generally speaking the monk needs ot use a resource and a bonus action to disengage where a rogue uses just a bonus action , though a successful stun means no op attacks (swashbucklers and open hand monks develop this further).
"A mage is the archnemesis of any monkcharacter with a low HP maximum". A wizard or sorcerer has less HP than a monk, will have lower wisdom and dex than the monk,so the monk is more likely to succeed against nearly all spells requiring saving throws than the wizard/sorcerer. If they have cast mage armor AC is similar (but at level one that is a significant resource). As they gasin levels the monk will gain AC through ASIs get evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body and diamond soul all of which make them more resistent to those spell attacks. All mages gewt to protect them from enemy mage attacks are shield, absorb element and counterspell all of which require the spell to be prepared / known
You say a paladin is MAD to balance them out but give no reason why they are more MAD than a monk (which you claim to be much much more mad than other melee classes)
i mean an paladin is much more able to get by with an low charisma score, yes it is used for the save DC of their spells and channel divinity but those are not as vital to the paladin's combat potency as stunning strike and unarmored defense is for the monk when many of your spell slots will be used for the divine smite feature or utillity spells with , and due to their ability to use heavy armor they only need a strength score of 13 or 15 to get viable armor class, some of the auras you get rely on your charisma score but even with just a decent score of like 14-16 it is still very useful.
Plus slightly higher hit dice means slightly less reliance on constitution if you want the same amount of health
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Jegpeg I think your comparisons are pretty off base because they miss important details and context. It's very important to note that what the class spends its ASIs on is the biggest factor to how MAD a class is because of how precious a resource they are. The monk is easily the most MAD class in 5e. It isn't close.
First: No class besides the unarmored Barbarian focuses on Constitution by pumping ASIs into it. Everyone else is happy with their starting con of 14 or 16. Buying a 15 in con at level 1 is not focusing. Point Buy makes it very easy to start with two 16's. Constitution should not be factoring in to your assessment of every class.
This means fighters and rogues are single attribute classes, they get extra ASIs and can afford to patch up their mental stats enough to not hate mental saves.
Paladins are a little more stretched at level 1 because they want good starting strength, con and charisma, but they don't spend ASIs on constitution and generally pick one of strength or charisma to pump with ASIs. A paladin can afford to start with a 14 con because they have heavy armor, d10 hit die and Lay on Hands. Not a true single attribute class, but their ASIs can be focused on a single attribute. And the Paladin has the best saves in the game. They don't need a good wisdom to shrug those off regularly.
Rangers are similar to paladins. Only they care about their wisdom even less than the Paladin cares about charisma. It's very easy to focus your ASIs on a single attribute.
This leaves the Unarmored Barbarian as the only class that can shake a stick at the Monk's MADness. This is where your lack of context fails to make a proper comparison.
Barbarians have a d12 hit die and gain resistance to the most common damage types while raging. The Barbarian has to expend no additional resource to enjoy the full suite of their defenses. It does not sacrifice offensive potential.
Monks have a d8 hit die and deflect arrows which is nice but nowhere near as useful as resistance to multiple damage types. If the monk wants more defense (patient defense) they have to spend ki and sacrifice offensive potential.
The barbarian is much more comfortable focusing on strength and leaving their dex and con at 14-16 for a while. They have more hitpoints AND better defensive features. The barbarian can afford to pick up resilient (wisdom) because AC isn't even the best way to protect a reckless barbarian that constantly gives advantage to its enemies.
The monk's only reliable defense is their AC. Stunning Strike is their best ability and demands wisdom. Their attacks are dex based and demand dexterity. And their HP is terrible so they want to start with a 16 con as well. Starting with three 16's can be done but cuts off a lot of powerful build options (namely variant human with any feat that doesn't boost a stat, but also any race that does not boost three stats)
Yes the monk is kitted for a skirmisher, not a tank. Con is generally what gets the axe and stays at 14 because of this. Except the monk is a much worse skirmisher than the rogue. The rogue has a bonus action hide/disengage and does not have to sacrifice any offensive potential to do it round after round. The monk once again has to spend precious Ki AND sacrifice their offense to do the same. Unless you have gone variant human and picked up mobile a monk cannot count on skirmishing tactics the way a rogue can. This means they have to stand and fight more and thus their lack of HP catches up to them. Not only does the monk have multiple attributes vying for an ASI, but they also have a feat tax to perform their intended role with the same kind of consistency and efficacy of a rogue.
I want to point out that Unarmored Barbarians don't even shake a stick at the Monk's Madness. Having Lower AC on them is not the most painful thing in the world so if they neglect Dex then that is completely fine. Because as one of their base abilities they actually gain resistance to at least the 3 most common forms of damage if not more than that through things like Bear Totem or other potential resistances through race combinations, something they pick up from gear or perhaps something else from a subclass I'm not thinking of.
Combined with their d12 hit die and Constitution being Relatively key to them though perhaps somewhat secondary to strength. This makes them a veritable juggernaut against Monks and Monks will have to take advantage of the Barbarians other weaknesses to really be able to stand up to one. In a lot of ways this is the armor of the Unarmored Barbarian Fighter. I've had as much success with them stacking resistances as I've had stacking AC on other things. If not more so, and considering some spells actually still deal things like bludgeoning that is just in the favor of their resistances. Anything that betters them is just a form of defensive gravy to pour on top.
And as Others have pointed out. Paladin's are really just dual Stat in a lot of ways. Con seems important on them and it is as a secondary stat. But with their self healing this makes anything over a mid level Con just another form of defensive Gravy. It's not entirely needed by them with their high AC's through heavy armor and their healing spells in combination. Backed up by a full time healer of some kind in the party can make them devastatingly effective with only a 14-16 con even as a Tank. Having a High Charisma just means that they are effectively proficient in all their saves to begin with if it gets maxed out and have some level of automatic proficiency at lower charisma scores. And Defensively speaking Strength is important to them only in making sure they can effectively wear those heavy armors and in a more "Offense is the best Defense" kind of way but in some ways could be considered secondary to maxing out Charisma. So Strength and Charisma combined with their Heavy Armor and Healing cover many of their defensive bases and make them forces to be reckoned with. They don't actually need to widely spread out their stats like they did in previous editions to make them work now but can focus in a very narrow way.
On top of all of this. There are potentially a variety of races that play into the 2 stats these classes want to focus in most or easily hit a primary and then build up con a bit more as well to help them secondarily. Monk does not have many races at all that do this for them even when we're talking about hitting the secondary stat of Con while also hitting one of their two main stats. Let alone hitting both of their main stats together. So they are often starting out at a slight deficit simply because they often cannot really count on at least one of their racial stats helping out their primary or secondary attribute needs.
I want to point out that Unarmored Barbarians don't even shake a stick at the Monk's Madness. Having Lower AC on them is not the most painful thing in the world so if they neglect Dex then that is completely fine. Because as one of their base abilities they actually gain resistance to at least the 3 most common forms of damage if not more than that through things like Bear Totem or other potential resistances through race combinations, something they pick up from gear or perhaps something else from a subclass I'm not thinking of.
100% agree. A more accurate statement would have been "none of these other classes are MAD at all and the unarmored barbarian is the only one with even a little bit of stat tension, and even they can easily avoid it."
Shake a stick was a quickhand because the unarmored barb was the only class that I felt deserved to be compared to the monk. Same ballpark analogy kind of thing, even if they are in completely different parts of the park. Every other class is not even playing the same game as the Monk.
I think you are exaggerating the difference between a monk and a barbarian or paladin.
I really am not. Practically everyone in the game will agree with me that Paladins are one of the most powerful classes in the game, and Monks are one of the least satisfying to play. Barbarians are commonly regarded as an "effective, yet boring" class, while Monks effectiveness is very much dependent on 3 ability scores.
I can see your point that a barbarian can wear medium armor and therefore can be viable with moderate dex.
They can be viable with next-to-no dex. They can be viable with next-to-no con. They can be viable with next-to-no dex and next-to-no con at the same time. However, monks cannot be viable with next-to-no con and next-to-no wis. They are much less viable with a lower score in either one of those features than a barbarian is with a very low score in one of their "Big Three" scores.
You say a paladin is MAD to balance them out but give no reason why they are more MAD than a monk (which you claim to be much much more mad than other melee classes)
They're not "more mad than a monk", they are at the very least "almost as MAD as a monk". They do need a good Strength or Dexterity score, and need a decent Charisma score, but in no way need as high of a Charisma score as a Monk needs for their Wisdom score.
Most subclasses of monks only need Wisdom for AC and stunning strike I am not saying it is not a primary stat but it is more important than con on a barb.
No. All monk subclasses need Wisdom and Dexterity for their AC. They depend on it. Stunning Strike is a core feature for monks, their combat effectiveness depends on it, and thus depends even more on WIS.
A moderate con monk (not primary but not dumped say a +1 I agree -1 con for a monk like any other class is not viable) should not be a frontline character, they are a skirmisher in a similar to a melee rogue. They run in attack and run out again. There are pros and cons between the two, at higher levels monks have a greater speed so move further, generally speaking the monk needs ot use a resource and a bonus action to disengage where a rogue uses just a bonus action , though a successful stun means no op attacks (swashbucklers and open hand monks develop this further).
That forces them to play a certain way. Barbarians don't need to change their playstyle in order to be viable in melee combat with low stats for DEX/CON, but monks do if they have a low WIS/CON score. Though most monsters focus on melee combat, it is not uncommon to see monsters with powerful ranged attacks and features. Ranged attacks and features are much more common than a monster feature that a barbarian would be vulnerable to (normally restraining/controlling effects).
Also, they have to use KI in order to dash as a bonus action, which takes away their ability to use their bonus action to attack.
"A mage is the archnemesis of any monkcharacter with a low HP maximum". A wizard or sorcerer has less HP than a monk, will have lower wisdom and dex than the monk,so the monk is more likely to succeed against nearly all spells requiring saving throws than the wizard/sorcerer. If they have cast mage armor AC is similar (but at level one that is a significant resource). As they gasin levels the monk will gain AC through ASIs get evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body and diamond soul all of which make them more resistent to those spell attacks. All mages gewt to protect them from enemy mage attacks are shield, absorb element and counterspell all of which require the spell to be prepared / known
No, monks are much more vulnerable to mages than most other classes. A wizard or sorcerer has access to Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Shield. Wizards have proficiency in Wisdom saving throws, and Sorcerers have proficiency in Constitution scores. Their AC when they use Shield can be way, way higher than a monks. Diamond Body comes at a very late level, too.
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No, monks are much more vulnerable to mages than most other classes. A wizard or sorcerer has access to Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Shield. Wizards have proficiency in Wisdom saving throws, and Sorcerers have proficiency in Constitution scores. Their AC when they use Shield can be way, way higher than a monks. Diamond Body comes at a very late level, too.
Counterspell and dispel magic are feature to protect the party from mages, the monk should be protected just as much from these as the wizard / sorcerer in the party. Shield uses a reaction so can only protect agaist one attack per round, at low levels using a spell slot is also a significant investment by the time to you get level 8 a monk will have an AC of 17 or 18 (excluding any magic items) while a mage with mage armor will be 15 or 16 without shield and 20 or 21 with it given the limited uses of shield I think this is about equal. Wizards have proficinecy in Wis saving throws, Sorcerers have proficiency in Constitution scores and monks have proficiency in dex saving throws, on top of that at level 7 the monk gets a defence against a lot (possibly the majority) of Wis save spell and at level 10 they become immune to ther most common con save spells. As I mentioned earlier while a wizard and sorcerer will not be improves their main saves with their ASIs (at least not until they get ot a high level) the monk will be improving their Wis and Dex saves.
Also, they have to use KI in order to dash as a bonus action, which takes away their ability to use their bonus action to attack.
Unarmoured movement means a monk rarely needs to dash. They may need to use ki to disengage though an open hand monk (which I admit is the only subclass I have played a significant amount) can usually avoid that when they use flurry of blows.
You have misread shield. It does trigger on one attack, but it increases your AC by 5 until the start of your next turn, thus allowing it to work on multiple attacks each round.
Con, Dex, and Wis are all pretty equally good saving throw proficiencies. They're not really any better than the others.
Open Hand Monks are one subclass of the nine official monk subclasses. Pointing to one-ninth of the class and saying "See! Your problem is solved when you use Flurry of Blows and your enemy fails a save specifically against the Reaction or Pushing feature for this one subclass!" is a bit disingenuous, if you ask me. Sure, one other subclass (Drunken Master) gets a similar feature, and there are a couple other subclasses that focus/can focus on ranged combat, but the majority of monks will have this issue of having to give up damage in order to avoid being hit.
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in the sense that diamond soul is objectively several magnitudes better than the fighter's 13th level benefit of a single additional usage of indomidable and the slippery mind feature for the rouge gained at 15th level, as well as the 14th level benefit for an non-multiclass cleric whose domain is not combat focused (in the sense that you gain nothing unless you happen to be fighting a lot of mummies and wights, but maybe that is just poor design), so we get this one class feature that is quite a bit more powerful than comparable features at similar levels, and then the level after that we get timeless body, this feature that is very fun RP wise but that has little to no practical use unless you want to go underwater or into space or if you tend to use the survival ruleset. I have no idea what i am trying to say here, just seems a bit odd, like the 15th level feature is a little bit subpar to compensate for how the 14th level feature is a bit too good for its level?
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Yes. But The Rogue is getting one of the most common saves as a proficiency finally. Has Had Evasion for a long time (much like the monk) and eventually picks up an abiilty where it's very hard to have advantage against them at all by level 18. On top of that they get blindsense at level 14, it may only be out to 10' but that still short circuits things like melee backstabs from invisibility.
The Warrior on the other hand is often built to withstand phsycial attacks to a great degree and at 14th level they pick up yet another ASI which can be used for whatever your build desires including proficiency in saving throws. And at 15th level they pick up yet another Archetype ability to hopefully make them even better at whatever chosen type of warrior that they are. Some of which are very strong and nice to have. Others that extend things like indomitable feature to others in the group should they fail as well. Or just plain give you more uses of parts of your kit just in general.
So it's not exactly without it's balance when it's compared to one Strong Defensive ability, which defensive abilities tend to be rather specific and spread out on the monk to begin with, combined with not just one but actually two ribbon abilities whose primary usage is only for flavor and to facilitate RP in general with little actual mechanical benefit outside of usually very rare circumstances.
Well, Monks are also kindasorta designed in a way that requires more player awareness and management.
Fighters get a bagillian attacks without having to spend any resources, have a d10 Hit Die, and can utilize the most powerful weapons and armor in the game. And just in case that wasn’t enough, Action Surge b*tches!
Rogues do obscene amounts of damage with their single attack, are basically good at absolutely everything, and they can primarily work from a distance and with cover so they don’t get hit so often. And if that wasn’t enough, can do it all with a single Ability score, and absolutely no resource management to speak of other than ammunition.
Monks basically need 3 high Abilities scores to function, are designed for melee so they get hit a lot but still only have a d8 Hit Die, but cannot take advantage of Armor to offset that whatsoever, they cannot use any of the most powerful magic weapons, and just about everything they can possibly ever do requires constant resources management. Considering all of that, Diamond Soul doesn’t seem too powerful to me at all.
As for Timeless Body, the only problem with that as far as I can see is that the part of the game that feature is designed to impact is the part of the game that most players don’t want to bother with and most DMs don’t enforce (probably because their players don’t want to bother with it): Resources. Most players don’t care to be bothered tracking how many days of rations they have or when they’ll need more, or how many days of potable water the party has in hand. (They don’t want to count ammunition either, but that matters in combat so it still gets done by many people.) If one actually pays attention, the “average” adventurer never drinks anything but ale, only eats before a major battle, and only if someone can cast [Tooltip Not Found], and never ever has to pee or poo. Also, adventurers are apparently immune to anything that could cause runny noses or congestion, and all food-born pathogens. Never in the history of 5e has an adventure ever had the trots or the sniffles. And Adventurers, much like high school girls, always stay the same age. When things like food, water, aging, and resistance to common illnesses are completely ignored, features like Timeless Body have little relevance.
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I'm dying. Roll for traveler's diarrhea.
I think that was a good summary IamSposta. The monk is basically doing everything on hard mode. It's okay to give them an ability that is objectively better than similar abilities that other classes get. It's about context.
Well Sposta. Now you are starting to hit on why I like Spells like Contagion and Bestow Curse on some builds. Because it gives adventurer's and enemies all of these illnesses and debilitations that they just tend to not have most of the time. I'm also not above letting players catch Diseases when I DM and there are some horrible ones of those. But it is a tool that is way too under utilized.
The Monk class overall seems weird from a balance perspective. No other martial class has to give up "points" to attack more often, or has to focus on 3 different ability scores to be viable, or be so mechanically limited in theme (arguably the Paladin is also theme-limited, but it's a bit more open than the Monk).
Diamond Soul is mechanically one of the best abilities in the game, but it's so late-game it isn't that notable (especially due to the fact that 3 types of saving throws are useless most of the time). It is way, way, way better than Indomitable, due to the ability to use it 20 times a short rest at level 20, but it takes ki points. This would be like asking a fighter to give up some of their Action Surge and Second Wind in order to do Indomitable more often.
Timeless Body will probably not affect the campaign at all, if you're like the majority of tables.
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I actually get annoyed whenever a DM tells me not to bother tracking rations or water. Way back in the ‘90s during 2nd edition one of my characters got into a jam and dehydrated to death shortly before the party would have found him. One of my characters froze to death for lack of a blanket. In the very first half of the first real dungeon I ever crawled, 5/9 of the party died because of all of those effing ceiling traps, wouldjajus’stopalready!! After those experiences, pretty much absolutely every character I have ever created has always carried 2 Waterskins, a Blanket and a Bedroll, a Sack and a Backpack, a tinderbox (even if they could do without), a mess kit, and a (preferably collapsing) 10-foot pole whenever possible. I like it when that stuff matters. 🤷♂️
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I don't track it at my tables because it doesn't add any fun to the game for me or my players. It's just work. Sometimes I require them to spend a certain amount of gold for rations and other supplies before the start of a long quest just for realism, but otherwise my table ignores that kind of thing. Lots of other tables ignore it as well, which is why I said that Timeless Body probably won't matter at your table. YMMV, though.
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somebody needs to find an abstraction or clever twist that makes keeping track of food and water / starving to death in the wilderness fun instead of just a chore, or to integrate it as a nessesary part in a greater system that is fun
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No. They just need to run for a group with the intention of making something like survival and/or potentially horror more of a focus of the game that they are running. Then things like that and the ring of sustenance and the like become suddenly invaluable. There are games that do this and there have been settings where they were vitally important in the past.
Every class has its unique aspects and the monk spending resources for extra attacks is one. (Only a warlock fwta apwll slots back afte a shoer rest, only a sorcerer can trade spewll slots for a different resource....) I would not say however that the monk is the oly martial class that needs to focus on 3 ability scores to be viable. Here ire themartial classes as I see them in decending order of MADness (I have left artificer out as it is so varied it may or may not be considered martial)
The other thing in the monks favor here is the three ability they focus on are the three most important for all characters. Not only are they the three primary saving throws but wisdom and dexterity are used in the most important ability checks in the game (stealth and perception), dex also helps for initiative. The barbarian / Paladin who dumps wisdom can easily find himself charmed and attacking the other members of the party.
Yes, it is a "unique aspect" of the class, it's just very different from every other martial class in the game in a strange way. I didn't say that other martial classes don't like having good stats three different ability scores, I said that "No other martial class . . . has to focus on three different ability scores to be viable".
There's a huge difference between a Monk dumping one of their "Big Three Stats" (DEX, CON, WIS) and a Barbarian dumping one of their "Big Three Stats" (STR, CON, and DEX to an extent). If a barbarian dumps Dexterity (which is the least important of their big three stats) by having a +0 for DEX, all you need to do to not have an awful AC is either max out your CON or wear medium armor and hold a shield. This will at best give you an AC of 17 (20 CON, nomaj shield), or 19 at level 20 (CON 24, nomaj shield). If you don't want to rely on your CON for your AC, you could just take nomaj Half-Plate or Breastplate and nomaj shield to get an AC of 16. Hell, they don't even need that high of a Constitution score if they're using the medium armor and shield and have a decently high DEX score. Barbarians don't need a huge CON bonus, due to their d12 hit dice and rage's damage resistances, they just like having it so they can tank even more.
However, things are much worse for a Monk if they choose to dump one of their Big Three, even if it's the one their features don't mechanically rely on for effectiveness (CON, in this case). If a monk dumps CON, they are going to be very, very squishy, possibly even having less hit points that the party's cleric, warlock, or sorcerer, which is normally not a good strategy for a frontline character. If they dump CON, they have to make sure that their DEX and WIS are as high as humanly (demihumanly?) possible, because they know they can't take a hit, so they need to make sure they won't take most hits. Even if you can get a good AC (for a well designed monk, this is normally around 15 at level one), that doesn't protect you against saving throw effects and other features that straight up deal damage (a mage is the archnemesis of any monk with a low HP maximum).
Monks mechanically NEED high Dexterity and Wisdom scores. If they don't max those out, their attacks will miss more often, deal less damage on a hit, be less effective when using their Ki fueled features, and be taking a lot more hits than if they had maxed out their Dexterity and Wisdom. They don't have any way around this. They're bound to their Unarmored Defense and Ki features, while a Barbarian has several options to keep it functional, even if they dump one or two of their "Big Three Ability Scores".
(Side Note - Paladins are MAD to balance them out, Fighters and Rogues are as SAD as one can get in 5e, and Rangers are MAD because the designers thought that it needed to be similar to the paladin's MADness.)
tl;dr - Monks are much more MAD than other melee classes.
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I think you are exaggerating the difference between a monk and a barbarian or paladin.
I can see your point that a barbarian can wear medium armor and therefore can be viable with moderate dex.
You say a paladin is MAD to balance them out but give no reason why they are more MAD than a monk (which you claim to be much much more mad than other melee classes)
Most subclasses of monks only need Wisdom for AC and stunning strike I am not saying it is not a primary stat but it is more important than con on a barb.
A moderate con monk (not primary but not dumped say a +1 I agree -1 con for a monk like any other class is not viable) should not be a frontline character, they are a skirmisher in a similar to a melee rogue. They run in attack and run out again. There are pros and cons between the two, at higher levels monks have a greater speed so move further, generally speaking the monk needs ot use a resource and a bonus action to disengage where a rogue uses just a bonus action , though a successful stun means no op attacks (swashbucklers and open hand monks develop this further).
"A mage is the archnemesis of any
monkcharacter with a low HP maximum". A wizard or sorcerer has less HP than a monk, will have lower wisdom and dex than the monk,so the monk is more likely to succeed against nearly all spells requiring saving throws than the wizard/sorcerer. If they have cast mage armor AC is similar (but at level one that is a significant resource). As they gasin levels the monk will gain AC through ASIs get evasion, stillness of mind, purity of body and diamond soul all of which make them more resistent to those spell attacks. All mages gewt to protect them from enemy mage attacks are shield, absorb element and counterspell all of which require the spell to be prepared / knowni mean an paladin is much more able to get by with an low charisma score, yes it is used for the save DC of their spells and channel divinity but those are not as vital to the paladin's combat potency as stunning strike and unarmored defense is for the monk when many of your spell slots will be used for the divine smite feature or utillity spells with , and due to their ability to use heavy armor they only need a strength score of 13 or 15 to get viable armor class, some of the auras you get rely on your charisma score but even with just a decent score of like 14-16 it is still very useful.
Plus slightly higher hit dice means slightly less reliance on constitution if you want the same amount of health
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Jegpeg I think your comparisons are pretty off base because they miss important details and context. It's very important to note that what the class spends its ASIs on is the biggest factor to how MAD a class is because of how precious a resource they are. The monk is easily the most MAD class in 5e. It isn't close.
First: No class besides the unarmored Barbarian focuses on Constitution by pumping ASIs into it. Everyone else is happy with their starting con of 14 or 16. Buying a 15 in con at level 1 is not focusing. Point Buy makes it very easy to start with two 16's. Constitution should not be factoring in to your assessment of every class.
This leaves the Unarmored Barbarian as the only class that can shake a stick at the Monk's MADness. This is where your lack of context fails to make a proper comparison.
The barbarian is much more comfortable focusing on strength and leaving their dex and con at 14-16 for a while. They have more hitpoints AND better defensive features. The barbarian can afford to pick up resilient (wisdom) because AC isn't even the best way to protect a reckless barbarian that constantly gives advantage to its enemies.
The monk's only reliable defense is their AC. Stunning Strike is their best ability and demands wisdom. Their attacks are dex based and demand dexterity. And their HP is terrible so they want to start with a 16 con as well. Starting with three 16's can be done but cuts off a lot of powerful build options (namely variant human with any feat that doesn't boost a stat, but also any race that does not boost three stats)
Yes the monk is kitted for a skirmisher, not a tank. Con is generally what gets the axe and stays at 14 because of this. Except the monk is a much worse skirmisher than the rogue. The rogue has a bonus action hide/disengage and does not have to sacrifice any offensive potential to do it round after round. The monk once again has to spend precious Ki AND sacrifice their offense to do the same. Unless you have gone variant human and picked up mobile a monk cannot count on skirmishing tactics the way a rogue can. This means they have to stand and fight more and thus their lack of HP catches up to them. Not only does the monk have multiple attributes vying for an ASI, but they also have a feat tax to perform their intended role with the same kind of consistency and efficacy of a rogue.
The Monk is the most MAD class by a mile.
I want to point out that Unarmored Barbarians don't even shake a stick at the Monk's Madness. Having Lower AC on them is not the most painful thing in the world so if they neglect Dex then that is completely fine. Because as one of their base abilities they actually gain resistance to at least the 3 most common forms of damage if not more than that through things like Bear Totem or other potential resistances through race combinations, something they pick up from gear or perhaps something else from a subclass I'm not thinking of.
Combined with their d12 hit die and Constitution being Relatively key to them though perhaps somewhat secondary to strength. This makes them a veritable juggernaut against Monks and Monks will have to take advantage of the Barbarians other weaknesses to really be able to stand up to one. In a lot of ways this is the armor of the Unarmored Barbarian Fighter. I've had as much success with them stacking resistances as I've had stacking AC on other things. If not more so, and considering some spells actually still deal things like bludgeoning that is just in the favor of their resistances. Anything that betters them is just a form of defensive gravy to pour on top.
And as Others have pointed out. Paladin's are really just dual Stat in a lot of ways. Con seems important on them and it is as a secondary stat. But with their self healing this makes anything over a mid level Con just another form of defensive Gravy. It's not entirely needed by them with their high AC's through heavy armor and their healing spells in combination. Backed up by a full time healer of some kind in the party can make them devastatingly effective with only a 14-16 con even as a Tank. Having a High Charisma just means that they are effectively proficient in all their saves to begin with if it gets maxed out and have some level of automatic proficiency at lower charisma scores. And Defensively speaking Strength is important to them only in making sure they can effectively wear those heavy armors and in a more "Offense is the best Defense" kind of way but in some ways could be considered secondary to maxing out Charisma. So Strength and Charisma combined with their Heavy Armor and Healing cover many of their defensive bases and make them forces to be reckoned with. They don't actually need to widely spread out their stats like they did in previous editions to make them work now but can focus in a very narrow way.
On top of all of this. There are potentially a variety of races that play into the 2 stats these classes want to focus in most or easily hit a primary and then build up con a bit more as well to help them secondarily. Monk does not have many races at all that do this for them even when we're talking about hitting the secondary stat of Con while also hitting one of their two main stats. Let alone hitting both of their main stats together. So they are often starting out at a slight deficit simply because they often cannot really count on at least one of their racial stats helping out their primary or secondary attribute needs.
100% agree. A more accurate statement would have been "none of these other classes are MAD at all and the unarmored barbarian is the only one with even a little bit of stat tension, and even they can easily avoid it."
Shake a stick was a quickhand because the unarmored barb was the only class that I felt deserved to be compared to the monk. Same ballpark analogy kind of thing, even if they are in completely different parts of the park. Every other class is not even playing the same game as the Monk.
I really am not. Practically everyone in the game will agree with me that Paladins are one of the most powerful classes in the game, and Monks are one of the least satisfying to play. Barbarians are commonly regarded as an "effective, yet boring" class, while Monks effectiveness is very much dependent on 3 ability scores.
They can be viable with next-to-no dex. They can be viable with next-to-no con. They can be viable with next-to-no dex and next-to-no con at the same time. However, monks cannot be viable with next-to-no con and next-to-no wis. They are much less viable with a lower score in either one of those features than a barbarian is with a very low score in one of their "Big Three" scores.
They're not "more mad than a monk", they are at the very least "almost as MAD as a monk". They do need a good Strength or Dexterity score, and need a decent Charisma score, but in no way need as high of a Charisma score as a Monk needs for their Wisdom score.
No. All monk subclasses need Wisdom and Dexterity for their AC. They depend on it. Stunning Strike is a core feature for monks, their combat effectiveness depends on it, and thus depends even more on WIS.
That forces them to play a certain way. Barbarians don't need to change their playstyle in order to be viable in melee combat with low stats for DEX/CON, but monks do if they have a low WIS/CON score. Though most monsters focus on melee combat, it is not uncommon to see monsters with powerful ranged attacks and features. Ranged attacks and features are much more common than a monster feature that a barbarian would be vulnerable to (normally restraining/controlling effects).
Also, they have to use KI in order to dash as a bonus action, which takes away their ability to use their bonus action to attack.
No, monks are much more vulnerable to mages than most other classes. A wizard or sorcerer has access to Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Shield. Wizards have proficiency in Wisdom saving throws, and Sorcerers have proficiency in Constitution scores. Their AC when they use Shield can be way, way higher than a monks. Diamond Body comes at a very late level, too.
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Counterspell and dispel magic are feature to protect the party from mages, the monk should be protected just as much from these as the wizard / sorcerer in the party. Shield uses a reaction so can only protect agaist one attack per round, at low levels using a spell slot is also a significant investment by the time to you get level 8 a monk will have an AC of 17 or 18 (excluding any magic items) while a mage with mage armor will be 15 or 16 without shield and 20 or 21 with it given the limited uses of shield I think this is about equal. Wizards have proficinecy in Wis saving throws, Sorcerers have proficiency in Constitution scores and monks have proficiency in dex saving throws, on top of that at level 7 the monk gets a defence against a lot (possibly the majority) of Wis save spell and at level 10 they become immune to ther most common con save spells. As I mentioned earlier while a wizard and sorcerer will not be improves their main saves with their ASIs (at least not until they get ot a high level) the monk will be improving their Wis and Dex saves.
Unarmoured movement means a monk rarely needs to dash. They may need to use ki to disengage though an open hand monk (which I admit is the only subclass I have played a significant amount) can usually avoid that when they use flurry of blows.
You have misread shield. It does trigger on one attack, but it increases your AC by 5 until the start of your next turn, thus allowing it to work on multiple attacks each round.
Con, Dex, and Wis are all pretty equally good saving throw proficiencies. They're not really any better than the others.
Open Hand Monks are one subclass of the nine official monk subclasses. Pointing to one-ninth of the class and saying "See! Your problem is solved when you use Flurry of Blows and your enemy fails a save specifically against the Reaction or Pushing feature for this one subclass!" is a bit disingenuous, if you ask me. Sure, one other subclass (Drunken Master) gets a similar feature, and there are a couple other subclasses that focus/can focus on ranged combat, but the majority of monks will have this issue of having to give up damage in order to avoid being hit.
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