that all said: I will 100% concede. Hide in plain sight. Still and always will need work. The time it takes is too long. Even if the fix is something stupidly simple like X uses, your wis mod, as a bonus action, until your next turn, you basically have the effect of a cloak of displacement. So, picture the camouflage of the “predator” from “predator” and “aliens” movies. Kinda like the firbolg invisibility, but for disadvantage against the ranger.
You're so close to getting it.
What you basically described is the optional Nature's Veil feature from Tasha's. But what you've missed is Hide in Plain Sight makes you into Dutch.
Yes. Standing still. Great for ambushes. Great for leading people into traps.
how many campaigns have you had party members willing to go along with that? Most people are Leroys.
hence why it just takes too much time to prepare. perhaps, you missed what I was saying in plain sight, because I prepared an adequate amount of time to say it? (Hide in plain sight joke)
In my experiences, the only times hide in plain sight has ever come up. Is during my watches, where I use it.
when my party actually agreed to a lure a dragon out of its lair and ambush plan.
or when you break away from your group and split the party.
The 1 minute prep time is just too long. It makes sense. And it’s very quick when you think about it. But with how you are forced to do it based on your party members actions usually. It’s too much prep time.
again, most useful for while take your turn at watch. And by most useful, I mean most actually comes up and is useful.
Spending one minute to use a feature isn't that much time. Ritual spells require ten times that, at least. Some spells take an hour.
What you're describing isn't a problem with the feature. You're making assumptions about the players in a cooperative game. If they, and the DM, aren't willing to let you use your class features, then the problem is the people playing the game.
You say assumptions but I have stated specifically in my experiences. Those aren’t assumptions.
and absolutely the problem is the dm and the people.
hence why I said foe the majority of most campaigns. It takes too much time. It’s because of others.
now: I’ll try and simplify what I am saying So that it is more clear: it would be significantly easier and more convenient for hide in plain sight to get tweaked to be more relevant naturally despite lack of knowledge of DMs or patience of players. Than it would be to re-educate an entire population of players and DMs for the ability to be used as raw and rai
As I stated. The argueing between party members on how to take on encounters is often a minute. it's usually longer and louder than really should be allowed. To the point that some DM's will sometimes cut it short and on rare occasion I've even seen a DM make the enemy aware of the party because of it. I've had experiences like this and had plenty of times with the one ranger I played to go, "I'm gonna take the time to camoflage myself and get into a good position" and have had it work perfectly fine while the rest of the party came up with their "Plan" that usually failed to be their plan somewhere halfway through round 1.
What percentage of encounters would you estimate occur when stumbling upon someone or something, vs happening in ambush form?
In my experience, I'd guesstimate 90% of encounters I've had happen spontaneously. Either we walked into something, were ambushed ourselves, or a murderhobo starts a fight. Rarely does an opportunity present itself to draw enemies in where Hide in Plain Sight could be useful.
Personally, I think it's because people tend to go invisible when around unfriendly faces. So the potential for combat is always there.
Why would someone feel the need to camo themselves around friendlies? I just don't see it coming up often. Typically, just hiding using stealth would suffice so the ability also seems a bit redundant to me.
If you were able to spend a minute pre-combat slapping mud on your face and then stood still the whole time.....sure, I guess. Again...not what I would call practical.
Have your DM's generally allowed you to move around after creating the camouflage Frank?
If you were able to spend a minute pre-combat slapping mud on your face and then stood still the whole time.....sure, I guess. Again...not what I would call practical.
Have your DM's generally allowed you to move around after creating the camouflage Frank?
Nope. Not even a little. The ranger can't move or take any action to maintain the benefit.
However I'm in the camp that makes the ability a two part ability. Simply, prime and release.
Okay, that was what I was getting at with my original question. Your answer was really Yes, you can move after creating the camouflage. Things make so much sense now. No wonder you're so into this ability, you've been handed a super favorable house rule.
I'm sorry but this ruling makes no sense. You're saying I can slap on my mud-suit, jog for an hour without losing it...but then as soon as I press myself flat against any surface to hide the slightest movement destroys the camouflage.
Okay, that was what I was getting at with my original question. Your answer was really Yes, you can move after creating the camouflage. Things make so much sense now. No wonder you're so into this ability, you've been handed a super favorable house rule.
I'm sorry but this ruling makes no sense. You're saying I can slap on my mud-suit, jog for an hour without losing it...but then as soon as I press myself flat against any surface to hide the slightest movement destroys the camouflage.
Yep. It’s not just me as a player. Me as a DM. And several others. Its what the ability says.
. . . That's not what the feature says. At all. It says "Once you are camouflaged this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface". Note the "once". That means, as soon as the camouflage is created, you have to use the whole feature. This is like saying you can drink a healing potion before combat and wait for the healing effect to happen until after you take damage. No. The feature isn't two parts. It's one part, camouflage to enhance your hiding when you spend 1 minute to create it. It's not camouflage that you activate whenever you feel like it. It doesn't matter if the DM allows it. The feature doesn't work that way.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Yeah I'm fully aware that's how HiPs works. I was trying to dig at how Frank plays the ability since I had a sneaking suspicion it was different.
Thanks for posting the JC tweet though! Great find.
And before you go denying the validity of JC, Frank, look down at the comments to that tweet. Dan Dillon, two years after making that podcast you posted is commenting "Ugh. Damn." and acknowledging it doesn't work.
I have to say that one of my favorite things about D&D so far is the ability to houserule and homebrew things. It can really fix a bunch of problematic and subpar features.
. . . That's not what the feature says. At all. It says "Once you are camouflaged this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface". Note the "once". That means, as soon as the camouflage is created, you have to use the whole feature. This is like saying you can drink a healing potion before combat and wait for the healing effect to happen until after you take damage. No. The feature isn't two parts. It's one part, camouflage to enhance your hiding when you spend 1 minute to create it. It's not camouflage that you activate whenever you feel like it. It doesn't matter if the DM allows it. The feature doesn't work that way.
Number one. It ONLY matters if the DM allows it.
Number two. Those tweets have been wrong and/or corrected multiple times, to the point of the game officially stating that the tweets are not official, as you all are no doubt aware. Take the beast master and beast taking their turn together. There is a tweet from JC saying NOPE, but Tasha’s and other places in the PHB where he said NOPE once before in a tweet are now NOT NOPE. Like controlled mounts.
. . . That's not what the feature says. At all. It says "Once you are camouflaged this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface". Note the "once". That means, as soon as the camouflage is created, you have to use the whole feature. This is like saying you can drink a healing potion before combat and wait for the healing effect to happen until after you take damage. No. The feature isn't two parts. It's one part, camouflage to enhance your hiding when you spend 1 minute to create it. It's not camouflage that you activate whenever you feel like it. It doesn't matter if the DM allows it. The feature doesn't work that way.
1. "Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action."
2. "Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells."
3. "Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast..."
4. "Once you detect the presence of a creature in this way, you can read its thoughts for the rest of the duration as described above..."
. . . That's not what the feature says. At all. It says "Once you are camouflaged this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface". Note the "once". That means, as soon as the camouflage is created, you have to use the whole feature. This is like saying you can drink a healing potion before combat and wait for the healing effect to happen until after you take damage. No. The feature isn't two parts. It's one part, camouflage to enhance your hiding when you spend 1 minute to create it. It's not camouflage that you activate whenever you feel like it. It doesn't matter if the DM allows it. The feature doesn't work that way.
Number one. It ONLY matters if the DM allows it.
Number two. Those tweets have been wrong and/or corrected multiple times, to the point of the game officially stating that the tweets are not official, as you all are no doubt aware. Take the beast master and beast taking their turn together. There is a tweet from JC saying NOPE, but Tasha’s and other places in the PHB where he said NOPE once before in a tweet are now NOT NOPE. Like controlled mounts.
1) No, it doesn't. If the DM allows it, great for you. However, stop trying to pretend like the feature is good because your DM made it good. It's bad as written, and your table's version is a houserule. This is like me going to a thread talking about why the Dragonborn breath weapon sucks and saying "at my table, the breath weapon lasts for a whole minute, so this feature is good!!!" No. Houserules don't make the RAW good. I seriously can't believe that this needs to be stated.
2) Never did I ever mention "tweets" or "Jeremy Crawford" in my post. Never. That was the others. I quoted the book and showed why it didn't work how you said it did. The rest of this second point is a bunch of irrelevant words that my brain doesn't understand the intent of.
Are we done now?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
. . . That's not what the feature says. At all. It says "Once you are camouflaged this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface". Note the "once". That means, as soon as the camouflage is created, you have to use the whole feature. This is like saying you can drink a healing potion before combat and wait for the healing effect to happen until after you take damage. No. The feature isn't two parts. It's one part, camouflage to enhance your hiding when you spend 1 minute to create it. It's not camouflage that you activate whenever you feel like it. It doesn't matter if the DM allows it. The feature doesn't work that way.
Number one. It ONLY matters if the DM allows it.
Number two. Those tweets have been wrong and/or corrected multiple times, to the point of the game officially stating that the tweets are not official, as you all are no doubt aware. Take the beast master and beast taking their turn together. There is a tweet from JC saying NOPE, but Tasha’s and other places in the PHB where he said NOPE once before in a tweet are now NOT NOPE. Like controlled mounts.
1) No, it doesn't. If the DM allows it, great for you. However, stop trying to pretend like the feature is good because your DM made it good. It's bad as written, and your table's version is a houserule. This is like me going to a thread talking about why the Dragonborn breath weapon sucks and saying "at my table, the breath weapon lasts for a whole minute, so this feature is good!!!" No. Houserules don't make the RAW good. I seriously can't believe that this needs to be stated.
2) Never did I ever mention "tweets" or "Jeremy Crawford" in my post. Never. That was the others. I quoted the book and showed why it didn't work how you said it did. The rest of this second point is a bunch of irrelevant words that my brain doesn't understand the intent of.
Are we done now?
1. That is how other people read it. Plain and simple. Do you track ammunition, food and water, spell components, encumbrance, and use the daily encounter xp rules for combat CR in the DMG? All 100% RAW. If you don't use it, it's a house rule. Big deal.
2. Yeah. That was a general response. Anytime anyone coughs up a JC tweet like it means something i giggle.
As I stated. The argueing between party members on how to take on encounters is often a minute. it's usually longer and louder than really should be allowed. To the point that some DM's will sometimes cut it short and on rare occasion I've even seen a DM make the enemy aware of the party because of it. I've had experiences like this and had plenty of times with the one ranger I played to go, "I'm gonna take the time to camoflage myself and get into a good position" and have had it work perfectly fine while the rest of the party came up with their "Plan" that usually failed to be their plan somewhere halfway through round 1.
What percentage of encounters would you estimate occur when stumbling upon someone or something, vs happening in ambush form?
In my experience, I'd guesstimate 90% of encounters I've had happen spontaneously. Either we walked into something, were ambushed ourselves, or a murderhobo starts a fight. Rarely does an opportunity present itself to draw enemies in where Hide in Plain Sight could be useful.
In before Fateless and/or Jounichi blame that on your DM and fellow players and say something about getting good.
That has been my experience too Kenshin. Hence, impractical ability.
Why does this ability need to be weaponized?
Personally, I think it's because people tend to go invisible when around unfriendly faces. So the potential for combat is always there.
Why would someone feel the need to camo themselves around friendlies? I just don't see it coming up often. Typically, just hiding using stealth would suffice so the ability also seems a bit redundant to me.
How about defensively? Once per combat you can just...disappear. Yeet out of there.
If you were able to spend a minute pre-combat slapping mud on your face and then stood still the whole time.....sure, I guess. Again...not what I would call practical.
Have your DM's generally allowed you to move around after creating the camouflage Frank?
Nope. Not even a little. The ranger can't move or take any action to maintain the benefit.
However I'm in the camp that makes the ability a two part ability. Simply, prime and release.
Are you allowed to move after you Prime the camouflage but before you Release it to hide?
Yes! That is the way Dan Dillon, Schuyler Esau, myself, and many others I play with read the ability.
1. "...spend 1 minute creating camouflage for yourself..."
2. "...Once you are camouflaged in this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface..."
Look up timestamp 0:51:25 on this podcast... https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-52cvy-5fab44
This is another great podcast... http://www.thetomeshow.com/e/all-about-rangers-tome-296/
Okay, that was what I was getting at with my original question. Your answer was really Yes, you can move after creating the camouflage. Things make so much sense now. No wonder you're so into this ability, you've been handed a super favorable house rule.
I'm sorry but this ruling makes no sense. You're saying I can slap on my mud-suit, jog for an hour without losing it...but then as soon as I press myself flat against any surface to hide the slightest movement destroys the camouflage.
Yep. It’s not just me as a player. Me as a DM. And several others. Its what the ability says.
According to Jeremy Crawford, no.
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1050536903018143745
. . . That's not what the feature says. At all. It says "Once you are camouflaged this way, you can try to hide by pressing yourself up against a solid surface". Note the "once". That means, as soon as the camouflage is created, you have to use the whole feature. This is like saying you can drink a healing potion before combat and wait for the healing effect to happen until after you take damage. No. The feature isn't two parts. It's one part, camouflage to enhance your hiding when you spend 1 minute to create it. It's not camouflage that you activate whenever you feel like it. It doesn't matter if the DM allows it. The feature doesn't work that way.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Yeah I'm fully aware that's how HiPs works. I was trying to dig at how Frank plays the ability since I had a sneaking suspicion it was different.
Thanks for posting the JC tweet though! Great find.
And before you go denying the validity of JC, Frank, look down at the comments to that tweet. Dan Dillon, two years after making that podcast you posted is commenting "Ugh. Damn." and acknowledging it doesn't work.
I have to say that one of my favorite things about D&D so far is the ability to houserule and homebrew things.
It can really fix a bunch of problematic and subpar features.
Number one. It ONLY matters if the DM allows it.
Number two. Those tweets have been wrong and/or corrected multiple times, to the point of the game officially stating that the tweets are not official, as you all are no doubt aware. Take the beast master and beast taking their turn together. There is a tweet from JC saying NOPE, but Tasha’s and other places in the PHB where he said NOPE once before in a tweet are now NOT NOPE. Like controlled mounts.
1. "Once you have the Extra Attack feature, you can make one weapon attack yourself when you command the beast to take the Attack action."
2. "Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells."
3. "Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast..."
4. "Once you detect the presence of a creature in this way, you can read its thoughts for the rest of the duration as described above..."
1) No, it doesn't. If the DM allows it, great for you. However, stop trying to pretend like the feature is good because your DM made it good. It's bad as written, and your table's version is a houserule. This is like me going to a thread talking about why the Dragonborn breath weapon sucks and saying "at my table, the breath weapon lasts for a whole minute, so this feature is good!!!" No. Houserules don't make the RAW good. I seriously can't believe that this needs to be stated.
2) Never did I ever mention "tweets" or "Jeremy Crawford" in my post. Never. That was the others. I quoted the book and showed why it didn't work how you said it did. The rest of this second point is a bunch of irrelevant words that my brain doesn't understand the intent of.
Are we done now?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
1. That is how other people read it. Plain and simple. Do you track ammunition, food and water, spell components, encumbrance, and use the daily encounter xp rules for combat CR in the DMG? All 100% RAW. If you don't use it, it's a house rule. Big deal.
2. Yeah. That was a general response. Anytime anyone coughs up a JC tweet like it means something i giggle.
Are we done? Have I convinced you? Have you convinced me? Nope. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdQ1E3t3Qq0