I love to MC, but it's hard to justify with a Gloomstalker before 8 or so. Iron Mind might not be a sexy as MC rogue, but damn is it useful. And sticking with one class gets you your ASIs as soon as possible, which again isn't as exciting on paper, but getting your DEX up + Sharpshooter is just really, really effective. The only MC I'd do before 8 is maybe one level of rogue at the very start.
I know I have advocated multiclassing in this thread but I'm currently playing a single class ranger. I think that multiclassing must be a much more considered decision with a known end-state in mind. If you are sitting at level 8 and trying to decide whether to take another ranger level or a level in another class, that is a much tougher decision than taking ranger to just 5 and then maybe 5 in a full caster -- that gets you access to 3rd level spells a single level later. Again, I don't mean to say that Ranger doesn't give some cool stuff at higher levels (though in regards to that, I think the Tasha's subclasses are better at that than any of the previous), but the problem is that particularly Gloomstalker and many other subclasses from other classes feel front loaded. You get good stuff from more ranger levels, but you might get better stuff from a well considered couple of other class levels-- depending on what you want out of the character.
You nailed it. Not only are almost all the classes and subclasses front-loaded, just like their charisma based cousins, rangers blend well with rogues, fighters, monks, clerics, and druids (and even barbarians in a pinch). So ranger 5 gets a solid base for any multiclass.
My point was at level 8 you are almost level 9, and level 9 for me with rangers is basically as big a deal as level 5. The higher spell slots can be achieved with druid or cleric, and druid even gets some of the same spells, but multiclass rogue completely walks away from that spell casting in exchange for 3d6 once a turn sometimes and expertise. So that is a huge decision.
My usual take is to go straight to Gloomstalker 8 in order to get two ASIs and then multiclass Rogue or Fighter. Level 9 is nice on Rangers, but definitely not game changers. Level 3 spells are ok, like Conjure Animals, but you can live without.
My usual take is to go straight to Gloomstalker 8 in order to get two ASIs and then multiclass Rogue or Fighter. Level 9 is nice on Rangers, but definitely not game changers. Level 3 spells are ok, like Conjure Animals, but you can live without.
I agree. My Gloom Stalker's multi-classing was more of a necessity than a choice. We had an Arcane Trickster whose player had to quit due to work commitments, so I took a level in Rogue to fill the gap. Being one level behind in my main class isn't too bad, although having to wait longer for an ASI or Feat is a pain.
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Frankly, my dear, I'd rather be listening to Rehn Stillnight.
Conjure animals, plant growth, 3d10 hail of thorns, 3d6 ensnaring strike, 8 hour hunter's mark, 6d6 cordon of arrows, or lightning arrow?! And another spell known? NOT game changers?
I always seem to miss the mark (intended) on these build threads. People always seem to be talking about just doing single target bow and arrow damage (ranger with sneak attack on top) and not any other tactical or group synergy type consideration.
Single attack damage is the easy calculation FRGG, too many folks never get past it, I’m guilty as well in some cases. You look at the ranger chart - see no abilities listed and never move over to see what is happening in the spells dept or check out new spells you can use and think “ok time to MC, what gives me more damage?”
There is a weird immediacy that sets in with the multiclass mindset where you can't tolerate a level that gives you nothing for damage so you multi to increase damage until you reach a point where you would have a dead level and then you multi again until you have nothing but dead levels and are missing out on serious higher level powers because you didn't spend one level getting through something sub optimum to get to something that eventually would be better.
On the Ranger it is REALLY easy to fall into this mindset, because the spells known mechanic locks you into what you do. With zero flexibility on the spells front if you want more variability you need to add it via feats, magic items, or multi. After Tasha's the one change I would make to the class is make it spells prepared.
But if you look at it from a damage perspective, Ranger gets extra attack at 5th level and 2nd level spells. The next big bump is 9th level. Most ranger subclasses put in a defensive ability at 7 which all too often is ignored. So you have deadish levels at 6 and 7 an ASI at 8 and then more power at 9. If what you want is damage that is what you see.
Personally that is not what I see and wisdom saves at 7 for gloom stalker is amazing and well worth the wait. But I like Rangers and am not super interested in maxing out damage.
Conjure animals, plant growth, 3d10 hail of thorns, 3d6 ensnaring strike, 8 hour hunter's mark, 6d6 cordon of arrows, or lightning arrow?! And another spell known? NOT game changers?
I always seem to miss the mark (intended) on these build threads. People always seem to be talking about just doing single target bow and arrow damage (ranger with sneak attack on top) and not any other tactical or group synergy type consideration.
Good point. A lot of players seem to forget they can upcast spells.
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Frankly, my dear, I'd rather be listening to Rehn Stillnight.
Hail of thorns upcast is an excellent horde breaking tool for Rangers. Well contained area of effect, works in conjunction with the attack action, magical damage, and the appropriate amount of damage to take out minions for the level at which it is upcast. Works for archers and melee rangers.
The larger the initial target, the larger the area of effect. A 3rd level smite adds 18 average damage. Hitting just two targets, hail of thorns deals 25.58 average damage. And if you have 3+ targets…
Also a gloomstalker/scout always take first level in rogue. Gives you so many great skills then get 5 in gloomstalker go back and finish as scout. Also take the hand crossbow get sharpshooter amazing damage!!!
I love to MC, but it's hard to justify with a Gloomstalker before 8 or so. Iron Mind might not be a sexy as MC rogue, but damn is it useful. And sticking with one class gets you your ASIs as soon as possible, which again isn't as exciting on paper, but getting your DEX up + Sharpshooter is just really, really effective. The only MC I'd do before 8 is maybe one level of rogue at the very start.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
If you get to level 8 ranger, level 9 gets you 3rd level spells. That’s pretty tough to pass up for some.
I know I have advocated multiclassing in this thread but I'm currently playing a single class ranger. I think that multiclassing must be a much more considered decision with a known end-state in mind. If you are sitting at level 8 and trying to decide whether to take another ranger level or a level in another class, that is a much tougher decision than taking ranger to just 5 and then maybe 5 in a full caster -- that gets you access to 3rd level spells a single level later. Again, I don't mean to say that Ranger doesn't give some cool stuff at higher levels (though in regards to that, I think the Tasha's subclasses are better at that than any of the previous), but the problem is that particularly Gloomstalker and many other subclasses from other classes feel front loaded. You get good stuff from more ranger levels, but you might get better stuff from a well considered couple of other class levels-- depending on what you want out of the character.
You nailed it. Not only are almost all the classes and subclasses front-loaded, just like their charisma based cousins, rangers blend well with rogues, fighters, monks, clerics, and druids (and even barbarians in a pinch). So ranger 5 gets a solid base for any multiclass.
My point was at level 8 you are almost level 9, and level 9 for me with rangers is basically as big a deal as level 5. The higher spell slots can be achieved with druid or cleric, and druid even gets some of the same spells, but multiclass rogue completely walks away from that spell casting in exchange for 3d6 once a turn sometimes and expertise. So that is a huge decision.
My usual take is to go straight to Gloomstalker 8 in order to get two ASIs and then multiclass Rogue or Fighter. Level 9 is nice on Rangers, but definitely not game changers. Level 3 spells are ok, like Conjure Animals, but you can live without.
I agree. My Gloom Stalker's multi-classing was more of a necessity than a choice. We had an Arcane Trickster whose player had to quit due to work commitments, so I took a level in Rogue to fill the gap. Being one level behind in my main class isn't too bad, although having to wait longer for an ASI or Feat is a pain.
Frankly, my dear, I'd rather be listening to Rehn Stillnight.
Wow. Really?
Conjure animals, plant growth, 3d10 hail of thorns, 3d6 ensnaring strike, 8 hour hunter's mark, 6d6 cordon of arrows, or lightning arrow?! And another spell known? NOT game changers?
I always seem to miss the mark (intended) on these build threads. People always seem to be talking about just doing single target bow and arrow damage (ranger with sneak attack on top) and not any other tactical or group synergy type consideration.
Single attack damage is the easy calculation FRGG, too many folks never get past it, I’m guilty as well in some cases. You look at the ranger chart - see no abilities listed and never move over to see what is happening in the spells dept or check out new spells you can use and think “ok time to MC, what gives me more damage?”
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There is a weird immediacy that sets in with the multiclass mindset where you can't tolerate a level that gives you nothing for damage so you multi to increase damage until you reach a point where you would have a dead level and then you multi again until you have nothing but dead levels and are missing out on serious higher level powers because you didn't spend one level getting through something sub optimum to get to something that eventually would be better.
On the Ranger it is REALLY easy to fall into this mindset, because the spells known mechanic locks you into what you do. With zero flexibility on the spells front if you want more variability you need to add it via feats, magic items, or multi. After Tasha's the one change I would make to the class is make it spells prepared.
But if you look at it from a damage perspective, Ranger gets extra attack at 5th level and 2nd level spells. The next big bump is 9th level. Most ranger subclasses put in a defensive ability at 7 which all too often is ignored. So you have deadish levels at 6 and 7 an ASI at 8 and then more power at 9. If what you want is damage that is what you see.
Personally that is not what I see and wisdom saves at 7 for gloom stalker is amazing and well worth the wait. But I like Rangers and am not super interested in maxing out damage.
Good point. A lot of players seem to forget they can upcast spells.
Frankly, my dear, I'd rather be listening to Rehn Stillnight.
To be honest, very few spells worth the upcasting. Higher spell slot for just +1d6 in damage? C’mon.
However, I agree that Conjure Animals is really good and one of the best DPR spells out there.
Hail of thorns upcast is an excellent horde breaking tool for Rangers. Well contained area of effect, works in conjunction with the attack action, magical damage, and the appropriate amount of damage to take out minions for the level at which it is upcast. Works for archers and melee rangers.
The larger the initial target, the larger the area of effect. A 3rd level smite adds 18 average damage. Hitting just two targets, hail of thorns deals 25.58 average damage. And if you have 3+ targets…
Also a gloomstalker/scout always take first level in rogue. Gives you so many great skills then get 5 in gloomstalker go back and finish as scout. Also take the hand crossbow get sharpshooter amazing damage!!!
Case in point, Wi1dBi11!
Yep 😁
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.