the fey wanderer lets you add your wisdom modifier to your charisma checks, and the samurai does the same to charisma (persuasion) checks, so by combining the two and trying to get your wisdom score to 20 as fast as possible would let you add +10 to all charisma (persuasion) checks, and then by using druidic warrior to get shillelagh and magic stone plus canny to make you even better at persuasion checks plus favored foe you could play as this nifty wholly wisdom based face of the party that manages to just barely keep up with the other martial characters in terms of damage and also not dying. Could this build work out? or would the fighter levels hold me back too much to be effective in combat?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'm not sure that Samurai and Fey Wanderer would stack. Both add your WIS as a bonus to your Charisma checks, and that seems, to me, to be a "two of the same buff" situation. So, I think you'd only be able to apply once.
Even if you could stack them... we're talking about a level 10 character at minimum, and you've invested all your ASI into WIS. You have Extra Attack, sure, but you're doing the equivalent of cantrip damage and locking yourself out of magic weapons, barring DM generosity. And heaven forbid finding an Anti-magic zone.
I think it would be fine since they are not the same source. Bards can already make Persuasion checks irrelevant without jumping through extra hoops so I don't feel like it's that bad. Plus I like the flavor - you are basically Confucius, dropping truth bombs of wisdom on everyone.
One consideration would be to take 1 level in Nature Cleric. This gets you Shillelagh and a bunch of additional spells and frees up your Fighting Style for something else.
Well, I'd personally rule that the source in this case is your WIS score. If it added your INT and WIS, then I'd allow it. But not double WIS. Your DM's mileage may vary.
One level in Nature Cleric isn't going to do much. The fundamental problem remains - you're stuck with only level 1 spell slots and a crap weapon (wood club), while everyone else is entering the level 11-16 tier, along with the power that goes with it. +2 damage for a hit and +1 AC isn't going going to change much; you already get two FS, and I'm not sure getting two instead of just one is going to change much. Compare to a level 11 Samurai Fighter. Three attacks, max STR/DEX, access to powerful weapons, an extra feat like PAM, GWM or SS over the fighter/ranger/cleric hybrid. They'll have received their level 10 ability, which lets them do more advantage-filled flurry of attacks across the day.
The simple fact of the matter is that relying on cantrip-level damage is going to be rough at that level (eldritch blast doesn't count). You've invested 7 levels into Fighter, but you lack a good weapon or associated feats to make an impact on combat. Tier 3 characters should have tier 3 abilities to handle issues that arrive at that level of play.
Plus, if your DM uses the official DMG social rules. The official rules have basically two steps - influencing Attitude (hostile, friendly, indifferent), and making the CHA check. Sure, you'll rock the Persuasion check at the end, but you're also going to lack pretty much any tool to affect Attitude. So, do keep that in mind that Persuasion isn't the end of social challenges.
I'm not going to argue that it's a viable build, although it shouldn't be hard to make it quite good outside of combat and the Staff of Striking isn't terrible. Just thought I'd point out the cleric dip because I've used it before to make a WIS-based fighter and it's a fairly nice package
I'm not sure you can add your stat modifier twice to something in 5e, but let's assume you can for the sake of exploring the concept because it's a sexy ass combo. Fey touched ronin with wit and wanderlust yes please.
I think the biggest problem with this build concept is that you get pushed in two different directions. Samurai doesn't boost persuasion until level 7, so that should be your extra attack class. But you probably want to actually get to play with your social skills and and not just wait to unlock them. Oh and you can't actually be wisdom based unless you pick up ranger early. So you start with ranger instead. Well now you can't get extra attack at level 5 or an ASI until 7, and will fall noticeably behind, unless you go ranger 5. If you do then you have to wait until level 12 to get fully online, and end up with the taboo double extra attack. Oof. It doesn't help that fey wanderer wants you to be an archer to more easily take advantage of dreadful strikes.
This could be a really fun concept build to bring to a higher level campaign (think 11+), but I think it would be a real struggle to start from a low or even mid level, unless you are willing to not be a face or wisdom based combatant until later levels.
Half-Wood Elf for the wisdom boost and access to elven accuracy to combo with Samurai advantage really ties the room together. Fleet of Foot compounds nicely with longstrider for 45 feet of movement. Half is chosen over full wood elf because the charisma boost is actually worth something as charisma still applies to your persuasion checks.
Important Skills: Persuasion, Insight, and any other social skill
Important Gear: Medium Armor, Quarterstaff
Important Spells: Longstrider, Hunter's Mark (HM is less of a staple because of negative synergy with dreadful strikes but it is still a great tool for focusing damage on high priority targets.)
After exploring this a little I think I would just go with a single classed fey wanderer and infusing it with your own samurai or ronin personality and motivations. You get wisdom based attacks at 2, social skills at 3, an ASI at 4 and extra attack at 5. It's just so smooth. Almost like it was designed like that. Clean build progressions that unlock main abilities early into the career lead to satisfying and fun characters. I would also seriously consider not being full wisdom and picking up archery with a high dex, but then you're getting to builds that differ quite a bit from the origin.
Kudos to the great MC concept. Makes me think of Musashi and his bokken made from carved boat oar. I'm thinking this character likes to best their opponents with a giant wooden sword (more or less a long carved club with a slight curve to it reminiscent of a bokken and a reskin of the quarterstaff). They are definitely an ******* that relishes in embarrassing their opponents by besting them with a wooden weapon. Wandering the land in search of duals, they are a hedonist with a love of art and beauty. A very inspiring build concept indeed.
I'm not sure that Samurai and Fey Wanderer would stack. Both add your WIS as a bonus to your Charisma checks, and that seems, to me, to be a "two of the same buff" situation. So, I think you'd only be able to apply once.
like i am not shure people in this thread thinks like this, like the only rule that says that two effects of the same source may not stack is with spell rules, where two castings of the same spell does not stack, there is no such rule for other class features, especially not one that says two completely different class features cannot stack
and besides from an technical perspective you are not technically adding your wisdom modifier to the check, you gain a bonus equal to your wisdom modifier, while that is practically the same thing
Plus, if your DM uses the official DMG social rules. The official rules have basically two steps - influencing Attitude (hostile, friendly, indifferent), and making the CHA check. Sure, you'll rock the Persuasion check at the end, but you're also going to lack pretty much any tool to affect Attitude. So, do keep that in mind that Persuasion isn't the end of social challenges.
those are more guidelines than rules, and besides there are not a lot of classes that do gain any particular bonuses to influencing attitudes bar charm person and friends, both of whom have dangerous consequences afterwards, and wisdom-based insight checks are just the thing you would need if you wanna figure out the bonds, flaws and ideals of an person to better influence them, the means of influencing attitude is through good roleplay, something that is inherent to a player, not to any particular build
Oof. It doesn't help that fey wanderer wants you to be an archer to more easily take advantage of dreadful strikes.
dreadful strikes does not work any better or worse with ether ranged or melee weapons, other than it helping to have a ranged weapon once you have extra attack and need to primary target multiple different targets
I think it would be fine since they are not the same source. Bards can already make Persuasion checks irrelevant without jumping through extra hoops so I don't feel like it's that bad. Plus I like the flavor - you are basically Confucius, dropping truth bombs of wisdom on everyone.
One consideration would be to take 1 level in Nature Cleric. This gets you Shillelagh and a bunch of additional spells and frees up your Fighting Style for something else.
yeah but that would mean delaying the use of abillities even further, and there is not much to do with an extra fighting style anyways, like i guess i could use dueling plus something defensive like interception or defense but it does not seem too thrilling honestly
This could be a really fun concept build to bring to a higher level campaign (think 11+), but I think it would be a real struggle to start from a low or even mid level, unless you are willing to not be a face or wisdom based combatant until later levels.
yeah anyone who would try this would have to accept the fact that it only really works once 10th level is reached and you get to have both abillities and decent combat prowess
DMG :Chapter 8: Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook
Oof. It doesn't help that fey wanderer wants you to be an archer to more easily take advantage of dreadful strikes.
dreadful strikes does not work any better or worse with ether ranged or melee weapons, other than it helping to have a ranged weapon once you have extra attack and need to primary target multiple different targets
Yeah that's all that I meant by that. Ranged attackers have an easier time splitting up their extra attack between multiple targets. Fighter with action surge can exacerbate this when you're pumping out 4 attacks.
I'm 99% sure these abilities stack. They have different names and different functions. Samurai boosts specifically persuasion checks and gives you proficiency in wisdom saves. Fey Wanderer boosts all charisma checks and gives you proficiency in a social skill.
Even if it wasn't, I wouldn't be concerned by it from a DM's perspective. It's a clunky multiclass with a lot of inherent problems and I don't think the pay off is anything to write home about. You don't even get expertise for all of your effort. Persuasion is very DM dependent and the DM can work to mitigate (or enable) the importance of social skills
Oof. It doesn't help that fey wanderer wants you to be an archer to more easily take advantage of dreadful strikes.
dreadful strikes does not work any better or worse with ether ranged or melee weapons, other than it helping to have a ranged weapon once you have extra attack and need to primary target multiple different targets
Yeah that's all that I meant by that. Ranged attackers have an easier time splitting up their extra attack between multiple targets. Fighter with action surge can exacerbate this when you're pumping out 4 attacks.
I'm 99% sure these abilities stack. They have different names and different functions. Samurai boosts specifically persuasion checks and gives you proficiency in wisdom saves. Fey Wanderer boosts all charisma checks and gives you proficiency in a social skill.
Even if it wasn't, I wouldn't be concerned by it from a DM's perspective. It's a clunky multiclass with a lot of inherent problems and I don't think the pay off is anything to write home about. You don't even get expertise for all of your effort. Persuasion is very DM dependent and the DM can work to mitigate (or enable) the importance of social skills
if you use canny from tasha's you can get expertise in a single skill of your choice from your ranger levels, so if i am just focusing on persuasion i can get expertise in that, or i might do insight instead or something
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
DMG :Chapter 8: Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook
I don't get it, nothing here prevents the Fey Wanderer and Samurai combo from working. If anything, the first part confirms it does.
"Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap"
Fey Wanderer and Samurai are two different game features, and this says that they both affect the target at the same time. Unless you can somehow convince me both relevant game features have the same name, the answer is yes RAW and probably RAI.
Edit: The people in the debate you found have seem to argue that you cannot add the same thing twice to something. Which sounds okay, but I don't recall anything in the book saying so (exc. proficiency), so I'm going to say you can.
According to the 'against' argument in that debate:
The Life Drinker invocation for Warlock would not work with a Hexblade because they already get +CHA to damage.
The Mobile feat wouldn't work on a Barbarian or Monk because they already get +10 movement from another source.
You couldn't get benefits from both a +1 shield and +1 armor at the same time.
There's a reason they spend several paragraphs trying to defend their stance instead of just quoting the applicable rule.
The rules disallow stacking the same game element, not the same bonus from different elements. You can find the latter all through the game.
To add to this, Paladins get a bonus to their own Charisma saving throws from their own Charisma score twice when they reach level 6 and get aura of protection.
the fey wanderer lets you add your wisdom modifier to your charisma checks, and the samurai does the same to charisma (persuasion) checks, so by combining the two and trying to get your wisdom score to 20 as fast as possible would let you add +10 to all charisma (persuasion) checks, and then by using druidic warrior to get shillelagh and magic stone plus canny to make you even better at persuasion checks plus favored foe you could play as this nifty wholly wisdom based face of the party that manages to just barely keep up with the other martial characters in terms of damage and also not dying. Could this build work out? or would the fighter levels hold me back too much to be effective in combat?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I'm not sure that Samurai and Fey Wanderer would stack. Both add your WIS as a bonus to your Charisma checks, and that seems, to me, to be a "two of the same buff" situation. So, I think you'd only be able to apply once.
Even if you could stack them... we're talking about a level 10 character at minimum, and you've invested all your ASI into WIS. You have Extra Attack, sure, but you're doing the equivalent of cantrip damage and locking yourself out of magic weapons, barring DM generosity. And heaven forbid finding an Anti-magic zone.
I think it would be fine since they are not the same source. Bards can already make Persuasion checks irrelevant without jumping through extra hoops so I don't feel like it's that bad. Plus I like the flavor - you are basically Confucius, dropping truth bombs of wisdom on everyone.
One consideration would be to take 1 level in Nature Cleric. This gets you Shillelagh and a bunch of additional spells and frees up your Fighting Style for something else.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Well, I'd personally rule that the source in this case is your WIS score. If it added your INT and WIS, then I'd allow it. But not double WIS. Your DM's mileage may vary.
One level in Nature Cleric isn't going to do much. The fundamental problem remains - you're stuck with only level 1 spell slots and a crap weapon (wood club), while everyone else is entering the level 11-16 tier, along with the power that goes with it. +2 damage for a hit and +1 AC isn't going going to change much; you already get two FS, and I'm not sure getting two instead of just one is going to change much. Compare to a level 11 Samurai Fighter. Three attacks, max STR/DEX, access to powerful weapons, an extra feat like PAM, GWM or SS over the fighter/ranger/cleric hybrid. They'll have received their level 10 ability, which lets them do more advantage-filled flurry of attacks across the day.
The simple fact of the matter is that relying on cantrip-level damage is going to be rough at that level (eldritch blast doesn't count). You've invested 7 levels into Fighter, but you lack a good weapon or associated feats to make an impact on combat. Tier 3 characters should have tier 3 abilities to handle issues that arrive at that level of play.
Plus, if your DM uses the official DMG social rules. The official rules have basically two steps - influencing Attitude (hostile, friendly, indifferent), and making the CHA check. Sure, you'll rock the Persuasion check at the end, but you're also going to lack pretty much any tool to affect Attitude. So, do keep that in mind that Persuasion isn't the end of social challenges.
I'm not going to argue that it's a viable build, although it shouldn't be hard to make it quite good outside of combat and the Staff of Striking isn't terrible. Just thought I'd point out the cleric dip because I've used it before to make a WIS-based fighter and it's a fairly nice package
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I'm not sure you can add your stat modifier twice to something in 5e, but let's assume you can for the sake of exploring the concept because it's a sexy ass combo. Fey touched ronin with wit and wanderlust yes please.
I think the biggest problem with this build concept is that you get pushed in two different directions. Samurai doesn't boost persuasion until level 7, so that should be your extra attack class. But you probably want to actually get to play with your social skills and and not just wait to unlock them. Oh and you can't actually be wisdom based unless you pick up ranger early. So you start with ranger instead. Well now you can't get extra attack at level 5 or an ASI until 7, and will fall noticeably behind, unless you go ranger 5. If you do then you have to wait until level 12 to get fully online, and end up with the taboo double extra attack. Oof. It doesn't help that fey wanderer wants you to be an archer to more easily take advantage of dreadful strikes.
This could be a really fun concept build to bring to a higher level campaign (think 11+), but I think it would be a real struggle to start from a low or even mid level, unless you are willing to not be a face or wisdom based combatant until later levels.
Half-Wood Elf for the wisdom boost and access to elven accuracy to combo with Samurai advantage really ties the room together. Fleet of Foot compounds nicely with longstrider for 45 feet of movement. Half is chosen over full wood elf because the charisma boost is actually worth something as charisma still applies to your persuasion checks.
1. Ranger 1. STR 8
2. Ranger 2. Fighting Style: Druidic Warrior (shillelagh, druidcraft) DEX 14
3. Ranger 3. Fey Wanderer CON 16 (14+1+1)
4. Fighter 1. Fighting Style: Dueling INT 10
5. Fighter 2. WIS 18 (15+1+1+1)
6. Fighter 3. Samurai CHA 12 (10+2)
7. Fighter 4. Polearm Master
8. Fighter 5.
9. Fighter 6. Elven Accuracy (+1 WIS)
10. Fighter 7.
11. Fighter 8. +1 CON, +1 WIS
Important Skills: Persuasion, Insight, and any other social skill
Important Gear: Medium Armor, Quarterstaff
Important Spells: Longstrider, Hunter's Mark (HM is less of a staple because of negative synergy with dreadful strikes but it is still a great tool for focusing damage on high priority targets.)
After exploring this a little I think I would just go with a single classed fey wanderer and infusing it with your own samurai or ronin personality and motivations. You get wisdom based attacks at 2, social skills at 3, an ASI at 4 and extra attack at 5. It's just so smooth. Almost like it was designed like that. Clean build progressions that unlock main abilities early into the career lead to satisfying and fun characters. I would also seriously consider not being full wisdom and picking up archery with a high dex, but then you're getting to builds that differ quite a bit from the origin.
Kudos to the great MC concept. Makes me think of Musashi and his bokken made from carved boat oar. I'm thinking this character likes to best their opponents with a giant wooden sword (more or less a long carved club with a slight curve to it reminiscent of a bokken and a reskin of the quarterstaff). They are definitely an ******* that relishes in embarrassing their opponents by besting them with a wooden weapon. Wandering the land in search of duals, they are a hedonist with a love of art and beauty. A very inspiring build concept indeed.
like i am not shure people in this thread thinks like this, like the only rule that says that two effects of the same source may not stack is with spell rules, where two castings of the same spell does not stack, there is no such rule for other class features, especially not one that says two completely different class features cannot stack
and besides from an technical perspective you are not technically adding your wisdom modifier to the check, you gain a bonus equal to your wisdom modifier, while that is practically the same thing
those are more guidelines than rules, and besides there are not a lot of classes that do gain any particular bonuses to influencing attitudes bar charm person and friends, both of whom have dangerous consequences afterwards, and wisdom-based insight checks are just the thing you would need if you wanna figure out the bonds, flaws and ideals of an person to better influence them, the means of influencing attitude is through good roleplay, something that is inherent to a player, not to any particular build
dreadful strikes does not work any better or worse with ether ranged or melee weapons, other than it helping to have a ranged weapon once you have extra attack and need to primary target multiple different targets
yeah but that would mean delaying the use of abillities even further, and there is not much to do with an extra fighting style anyways, like i guess i could use dueling plus something defensive like interception or defense but it does not seem too thrilling honestly
yeah anyone who would try this would have to accept the fact that it only really works once 10th level is reached and you get to have both abillities and decent combat prowess
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
DMG :Chapter 8: Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section: Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook
There is a lot of debate. Crawford semi confirmed paladins getting cha added twice to saves because of auras but its not quite the same situation https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/789277349036437505
Here is a debate I found on the topic
Yeah that's all that I meant by that. Ranged attackers have an easier time splitting up their extra attack between multiple targets. Fighter with action surge can exacerbate this when you're pumping out 4 attacks.
I'm 99% sure these abilities stack. They have different names and different functions. Samurai boosts specifically persuasion checks and gives you proficiency in wisdom saves. Fey Wanderer boosts all charisma checks and gives you proficiency in a social skill.
Even if it wasn't, I wouldn't be concerned by it from a DM's perspective. It's a clunky multiclass with a lot of inherent problems and I don't think the pay off is anything to write home about. You don't even get expertise for all of your effort. Persuasion is very DM dependent and the DM can work to mitigate (or enable) the importance of social skills
if you use canny from tasha's you can get expertise in a single skill of your choice from your ranger levels, so if i am just focusing on persuasion i can get expertise in that, or i might do insight instead or something
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I don't get it, nothing here prevents the Fey Wanderer and Samurai combo from working. If anything, the first part confirms it does.
"Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap"
Fey Wanderer and Samurai are two different game features, and this says that they both affect the target at the same time. Unless you can somehow convince me both relevant game features have the same name, the answer is yes RAW and probably RAI.
Edit: The people in the debate you found have seem to argue that you cannot add the same thing twice to something. Which sounds okay, but I don't recall anything in the book saying so (exc. proficiency), so I'm going to say you can.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
According to the 'against' argument in that debate:
There's a reason they spend several paragraphs trying to defend their stance instead of just quoting the applicable rule.
The rules disallow stacking the same game element, not the same bonus from different elements. You can find the latter all through the game.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
To add to this, Paladins get a bonus to their own Charisma saving throws from their own Charisma score twice when they reach level 6 and get aura of protection.
Add Eloquence Bard Silver Tongue and you are a god at persuasion and deception always getting a 20 or higher
Yeah but then you'd have to take Bard levels *shudders*