For a ranger, taking into consideration the cost of both concentration and a level 5 spell slot, what's all the hype about this swift quiver spell? Is it because of the sharpshooter feat? I would understand that I guess. But even with the sharpshooter feat, and ESPECIALLY if the table isn't using feats, I see lots of better options for a ranger, even more so if you aren't ONLY looking at pure bland DPR.
I always thought the hype around swift quiver was when valor bards pick it up as their 10th level magical secret.
Didn't even know there were any level 17 rangers out there in the wild.
I agree it's an unexciting option by the time you get it as a ranger. For the rare single-classed ranger that makes it to higher levels I think conjure spells are the best options. Conjure Animals strikes me as the best use for those 5th level slots while conjure woodland being takes up the 4's (and no, I'm not talking about pixie spamming you dirty human). The new summon spells look really cool too. I'd love to see ranger builds that put them to use. For pure damage spells I'd rather lean on the conjure volley/barrage duo as burst AOE is a nice tool to add to the ranger's kit.
Yeah I think it's kind of a trap build for the bard. The gimmick is cool, but frankly I would never roll a valor bard anyways. I'm a lore man myself and that should tell you where my head is at when it comes to spellcasting.
ranger stuff: I absolutely adore the ranger's battlefield control kit and it gets less love than even the most maligned subclasses. It's a confusing phenomenon. It's no secret that conjure animals is one the most powerful spells in the game, is actually famous/infamous for it, and yet gets no attention on the ranger. I'm sure part of it is that it's not immediately obvious that conjure animals and woodland beings are actually battlefield control spells, but it's still just weird. How can people talk about druid's power spike when they get it but say nothing about the ranger?
You're absolutely right a vast majority of the ranger's mid and lategame power is tied up in these conjure spells. Just look at those abilities from 6-20. So many ribbon abilities, with a few gems. The utility adds up to some nice capabilities but it doesn't change their nature as ribbon abilities. They didn't give the paladin anything remotely close to conjure animals at 3rd level. Wonder why its mid level abilities are stronger.
Spike growth, conjure animals, and conjure woodland beings meant you could spend all of your second-fifth level slots on some kind of battlefield control and now we even have entangle at first. Archery and battlefield control go together like two peas in a pod and archery is the ranger's best style, despite enjoying a healthy life as a switch hitter. Maybe eventually there will be a ranger renaissance around these spells. Maybe the new conjure spells will help it along. Probably not though. People love damage.
Swift Quiver definitely seems like it comes a bit late to the game especially when it is so niche. I mean when other spell casters can cast Haste to give a single additional attack along with a few other benefits at level 5 while Ranger needs to wait till 17 to get this spell. I can see it being useful for a Bard to take this at 10 just so they can boost their Ranged Ally's attacks, especially if that ally has a magical bow that does tons of damage, but other than that it doesn't seem very useful. Plus, just as Frank stated, Bard should really be using their concentration on a different spell. Though if someone had a ring of spell storing, they could always cast the spell into the ring and give it to the Archer so they can concentrate on it themselves, but they're still losing a Magical Secrets to do this.
I think when you're reaching the point that you're relying on a ring of spell storing to make a spell worth it, the spell just isn't that good. Swift Quiver makes people that want to play a bard archer riding around on a griffin very happy and that's more than enough.
But when we're talking bang for you buck spell slots and actions it's summons all the way.
Spike growth, conjure animals, and conjure woodland beings meant you could spend all of your second-fifth level slots on some kind of battlefield control and now we even have entangle at first. Archery and battlefield control go together like two peas in a pod and archery is the ranger's best style, despite enjoying a healthy life as a switch hitter. Maybe eventually there will be a ranger renaissance around these spells. Maybe the new conjure spells will help it along. Probably not though. People love damage.
I haven't really seen anyone dispute the effectiveness of conjure spells, both in control aspects and in damage.The problem is the raw, unbridled tedium of controlling 16 poisonous snakes on your turn every round.
The first time you do it, it's funny and thematic and cool. The 16th time you do it, the rest of the party groans and pulls out their phones. The new spells almost certainly won't match the conjures for raw power and utility, but hopefully they are a good enough alternative when you're willing to face a little more risk just to keep the pace up.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that despite recognizing the obvious power on the conjure spells, there is basically no conversation about them as an important part of the ranger kit. I rarely see them mentioned even in passing as an option.
They created mob rules for a reason and they work very well. It's not even a homebrew thing, it's in the PHB/DMG. Summoning takes more work between you and the DM to keep running smoothly, but mob rules or summoning smaller amounts of big dudes alleviates the problem. There are a lot of players that simply shouldn't play a summoner because they're not prepared to do it without disrupting the table, but it is possible to summon large amounts of dudes keep the fun going.
Without Sharpshooter, you're right. Swift quiver isn't that great. I've never heard of a table that doesn't allow feats though. A ranger that makes it to 17 with sharpshooter would have trouble finding a better use for the 5th level slot though.
Summoning a mass of animals with an upcast conjure animals drastically changes your action economy. Swift Quiver can't come close. Boosting your action economy is like the holy grail of DnD power.
At level 17 against creatures you're likely to encounter, 4 CR 1 creatures are going to have limited impact on a fight. They might soak up a little damage that would otherwise hit the party, but they might also just die to an area spell or effect. They also are going to have a fairly low chance of hitting these high level enemies.
A druid makes a much stronger summoner, particularly at these higher levels. I personally think that playing to the rangers strengths would be more fun but to each their own.
Yeah. They hit a little more than half as often as the PCs. Plus they won’t have magic attacks for damage resistances. But they are big so they can block, have hit points (104-148) which is many the PCs won’t lose or have to heal back a bunch, can hit and do some damage, and many of them have grapple, knockdown, or restraining effects on a hit. And that’s if they don’t just grapple, knockdown, or take the help action. Plus flight is great! Giant eagles can be taking hits or spell damage or making attacks for a few rounds while the melee PCs cover ground.
If we're talking very end game, like levels 17+, a giant constrictor snake might have an impact, but likely would not at all. The major benefit of this creature is that it can grapple Gargantuan creatures because it's huge. Trouble is, at this late in the game, it's unlikely to work. Let's say you're fighting an Ancient Red Dragon. The Giant Constrictor Snake is literally incapable of passing the save to not be frightened. It won't be able to move closer to the dragon. If the dragon comes right next to it, doesn't attack and kill the snake, and ends its turn there (which would be dumb), the snake would have a 25% chance to hit the dragon and it would be grappled on a hit. This would be huge if it worked. However, why would the dragon end its turn there and not kill the snake? Also, technically the dragon could use it's wing attack legendary action. The snake is incapable of passing that DC too so it would be pushed away ending the grapple. There probably is an argument to be made that even a gargantuan creature grappled by a giant constrictor snake would be incapable of flapping it's wings and even if it did, the giant constrictor snake would be able to hold on, but technically there are no rules to that effect. Also, the snake would almost certainly die in 1 breath attack. It wouldn't be able to pass the save for half DC and its average damage is 91. It would be a pretty awful roll to not one shot the snake. These are the types of encounters you're fighting at levels 17+. Even 2 of them (which you'd be able to summon with that 5th level slot) is unlikely to have a big impact on an encounter like this.
At level 9, when a druid would have access to 5th level slots, 2 Giant Constrictor Snakes would be a huge boon to anything the druid would likely be fighting. Those snakes vs a Young Red Dragon could have a huge impact. The Young Red Dragon does not have frightful presence and couldn't 1 shot the snakes with a breath weapon.
I think that's the issue with a Ranger as primarily a caster. It falls off later because it does not have the spell levels to have a huge impact. Conversely, it can throw out some good damage with attacks. At the lower levels I think this works out fine. At level 9, the ranger can summon one of these Giant Constrictor Snakes and that will have a big impact. That said, most of their spells are either noncombat, spells that augment their martial prowess, or spells that will help out but not have a major impact.
Impressively well reasoned. Kudos Lehrer. I'm on board with swift quiver being the best boss slayer spell end game for the Ranger now.
I've never played at 17+ in 5e, just 3.5, but I can't imagine that the Ancient Red Dragon is the only type of encounter you will face. Surely there will be others that are not against 1 crazy powerful foe that can neutralize and kill multiple constrictors with little to no effort. Any time you're facing an encounter with a boss and its minions, the constrictors are going to put in work engaging the enemies that can't deal with them as handily as an ancient red. Giving your team breathing space to focus on high priority targets is a huge boon strategically, even if they deal little damage. There are also WAY more tactics than just two constrictors, and that means the spell has an incredible amount of minor use cases. I think it's too difficult to judge how often conjure animals will be good late game, but I do agree that swift quiver is the right tool for taking on things like an ancient red.
Considering the ranger doesn't have other battlefield control options at high level, I think conjure animals will still be a useful performer at 17+. It won't be something you cast all the time, and I now believe the real solution is to pack both. Pull out swift quiver when you need to light up a boss and use conjure animals when the enemy won't render them pitiful.
I still think swift squiver has to compete with guardian of nature at higher levels. The turn you cast it, swift quiver doesn't provide you with any benefits at all while guardian of nature already gives you advantage. Furthermore, swiftquiver takes up your bonus action every single turn so if you are playing a ranger who likes to use his bonusaction for other stuff i would stick to guardian of nature. Unless ofcourse you have another reliable source of advantage...
Impressively well reasoned. Kudos Lehrer. I'm on board with swift quiver being the best boss slayer spell end game for the Ranger now.
I've never played at 17+ in 5e, just 3.5, but I can't imagine that the Ancient Red Dragon is the only type of encounter you will face. Surely there will be others that are not against 1 crazy powerful foe that can neutralize and kill multiple constrictors with little to no effort. Any time you're facing an encounter with a boss and its minions, the constrictors are going to put in work engaging the enemies that can't deal with them as handily as an ancient red. Giving your team breathing space to focus on high priority targets is a huge boon strategically, even if they deal little damage. There are also WAY more tactics than just two constrictors, and that means the spell has an incredible amount of minor use cases. I think it's too difficult to judge how often conjure animals will be good late game, but I do agree that swift quiver is the right tool for taking on things like an ancient red.
Considering the ranger doesn't have other battlefield control options at high level, I think conjure animals will still be a useful performer at 17+. It won't be something you cast all the time, and I now believe the real solution is to pack both. Pull out swift quiver when you need to light up a boss and use conjure animals when the enemy won't render them pitiful.
Yeah there might be some fodder that his could be useful for but I don't think it's your best option for your 5th level spell. Steel Wind Strike will likely be your best use of a 5th level slot against a lot of less significant enemies.
I still think swift squiver has to compete with guardian of nature at higher levels. The turn you cast it, swift quiver doesn't provide you with any benefits at all while guardian of nature already gives you advantage. Furthermore, swiftquiver takes up your bonus action every single turn so if you are playing a ranger who likes to use his bonusaction for other stuff i would stick to guardian of nature. Unless ofcourse you have another reliable source of advantage...
It somewhat depends. Guardian of Nature is a great spell and doesn't require your 5th level slot. For Beast Masters, or any build that already puts the bonus action to good use, this is a great option. It's also a good option for any target that is difficult to hit. Advantage largely negates the -5 to hit from sharpshooter so it helps to hit those hard to hit creatures. Still, 4 normal attacks vs 2 attacks at advantage are comparable in terms of average damage but the former has a much higher ceiling as all 4 attacks could hit. Plus other reliable sources of advantage make Guardian of Nature largely pointless, as you mention.
There are plenty of things Swift Quiver competes with but I think that when in doubt, it's a very strong option.
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For a ranger, taking into consideration the cost of both concentration and a level 5 spell slot, what's all the hype about this swift quiver spell? Is it because of the sharpshooter feat? I would understand that I guess. But even with the sharpshooter feat, and ESPECIALLY if the table isn't using feats, I see lots of better options for a ranger, even more so if you aren't ONLY looking at pure bland DPR.
Thoughts?
I always thought the hype around swift quiver was when valor bards pick it up as their 10th level magical secret.
Didn't even know there were any level 17 rangers out there in the wild.
I agree it's an unexciting option by the time you get it as a ranger. For the rare single-classed ranger that makes it to higher levels I think conjure spells are the best options. Conjure Animals strikes me as the best use for those 5th level slots while conjure woodland being takes up the 4's (and no, I'm not talking about pixie spamming you dirty human). The new summon spells look really cool too. I'd love to see ranger builds that put them to use. For pure damage spells I'd rather lean on the conjure volley/barrage duo as burst AOE is a nice tool to add to the ranger's kit.
Ah. Maybe it is the bard thing. That would make a lot more sense. although, I'm not sure that's the "best" use of a bard's concentration either! LOL!
I am a big fan of the ranger class and conjure animals too. I argue it's like 60% of their class balance with the other martials.
Yeah I think it's kind of a trap build for the bard. The gimmick is cool, but frankly I would never roll a valor bard anyways. I'm a lore man myself and that should tell you where my head is at when it comes to spellcasting.
ranger stuff: I absolutely adore the ranger's battlefield control kit and it gets less love than even the most maligned subclasses. It's a confusing phenomenon. It's no secret that conjure animals is one the most powerful spells in the game, is actually famous/infamous for it, and yet gets no attention on the ranger. I'm sure part of it is that it's not immediately obvious that conjure animals and woodland beings are actually battlefield control spells, but it's still just weird. How can people talk about druid's power spike when they get it but say nothing about the ranger?
You're absolutely right a vast majority of the ranger's mid and lategame power is tied up in these conjure spells. Just look at those abilities from 6-20. So many ribbon abilities, with a few gems. The utility adds up to some nice capabilities but it doesn't change their nature as ribbon abilities. They didn't give the paladin anything remotely close to conjure animals at 3rd level. Wonder why its mid level abilities are stronger.
Spike growth, conjure animals, and conjure woodland beings meant you could spend all of your second-fifth level slots on some kind of battlefield control and now we even have entangle at first. Archery and battlefield control go together like two peas in a pod and archery is the ranger's best style, despite enjoying a healthy life as a switch hitter. Maybe eventually there will be a ranger renaissance around these spells. Maybe the new conjure spells will help it along. Probably not though. People love damage.
Swift Quiver definitely seems like it comes a bit late to the game especially when it is so niche. I mean when other spell casters can cast Haste to give a single additional attack along with a few other benefits at level 5 while Ranger needs to wait till 17 to get this spell. I can see it being useful for a Bard to take this at 10 just so they can boost their Ranged Ally's attacks, especially if that ally has a magical bow that does tons of damage, but other than that it doesn't seem very useful. Plus, just as Frank stated, Bard should really be using their concentration on a different spell. Though if someone had a ring of spell storing, they could always cast the spell into the ring and give it to the Archer so they can concentrate on it themselves, but they're still losing a Magical Secrets to do this.
I think when you're reaching the point that you're relying on a ring of spell storing to make a spell worth it, the spell just isn't that good. Swift Quiver makes people that want to play a bard archer riding around on a griffin very happy and that's more than enough.
But when we're talking bang for you buck spell slots and actions it's summons all the way.
I haven't really seen anyone dispute the effectiveness of conjure spells, both in control aspects and in damage.The problem is the raw, unbridled tedium of controlling 16 poisonous snakes on your turn every round.
The first time you do it, it's funny and thematic and cool. The 16th time you do it, the rest of the party groans and pulls out their phones. The new spells almost certainly won't match the conjures for raw power and utility, but hopefully they are a good enough alternative when you're willing to face a little more risk just to keep the pace up.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that despite recognizing the obvious power on the conjure spells, there is basically no conversation about them as an important part of the ranger kit. I rarely see them mentioned even in passing as an option.
They created mob rules for a reason and they work very well. It's not even a homebrew thing, it's in the PHB/DMG. Summoning takes more work between you and the DM to keep running smoothly, but mob rules or summoning smaller amounts of big dudes alleviates the problem. There are a lot of players that simply shouldn't play a summoner because they're not prepared to do it without disrupting the table, but it is possible to summon large amounts of dudes keep the fun going.
Without Sharpshooter, you're right. Swift quiver isn't that great. I've never heard of a table that doesn't allow feats though. A ranger that makes it to 17 with sharpshooter would have trouble finding a better use for the 5th level slot though.
Summoning a mass of animals with an upcast conjure animals drastically changes your action economy. Swift Quiver can't come close. Boosting your action economy is like the holy grail of DnD power.
Four dire wolves, giant hyenas, giant eagles, giant toads, or giant spiders sure seem like a lot more fun to me than more arrows.
At level 17 against creatures you're likely to encounter, 4 CR 1 creatures are going to have limited impact on a fight. They might soak up a little damage that would otherwise hit the party, but they might also just die to an area spell or effect. They also are going to have a fairly low chance of hitting these high level enemies.
A druid makes a much stronger summoner, particularly at these higher levels. I personally think that playing to the rangers strengths would be more fun but to each their own.
Those are good points. I think sometimes I forget not everyone is a shepherd druid. A good late game bow definitely means a lot in the equation.
Still. I value the tactical implications and out of combat utility of summons very highly.
Yeah. They hit a little more than half as often as the PCs. Plus they won’t have magic attacks for damage resistances. But they are big so they can block, have hit points (104-148) which is many the PCs won’t lose or have to heal back a bunch, can hit and do some damage, and many of them have grapple, knockdown, or restraining effects on a hit. And that’s if they don’t just grapple, knockdown, or take the help action. Plus flight is great! Giant eagles can be taking hits or spell damage or making attacks for a few rounds while the melee PCs cover ground.
One or two of these on the battlefield is defiantly going to have a net positive effect.
If we're talking very end game, like levels 17+, a giant constrictor snake might have an impact, but likely would not at all. The major benefit of this creature is that it can grapple Gargantuan creatures because it's huge. Trouble is, at this late in the game, it's unlikely to work. Let's say you're fighting an Ancient Red Dragon. The Giant Constrictor Snake is literally incapable of passing the save to not be frightened. It won't be able to move closer to the dragon. If the dragon comes right next to it, doesn't attack and kill the snake, and ends its turn there (which would be dumb), the snake would have a 25% chance to hit the dragon and it would be grappled on a hit. This would be huge if it worked. However, why would the dragon end its turn there and not kill the snake? Also, technically the dragon could use it's wing attack legendary action. The snake is incapable of passing that DC too so it would be pushed away ending the grapple. There probably is an argument to be made that even a gargantuan creature grappled by a giant constrictor snake would be incapable of flapping it's wings and even if it did, the giant constrictor snake would be able to hold on, but technically there are no rules to that effect. Also, the snake would almost certainly die in 1 breath attack. It wouldn't be able to pass the save for half DC and its average damage is 91. It would be a pretty awful roll to not one shot the snake. These are the types of encounters you're fighting at levels 17+. Even 2 of them (which you'd be able to summon with that 5th level slot) is unlikely to have a big impact on an encounter like this.
At level 9, when a druid would have access to 5th level slots, 2 Giant Constrictor Snakes would be a huge boon to anything the druid would likely be fighting. Those snakes vs a Young Red Dragon could have a huge impact. The Young Red Dragon does not have frightful presence and couldn't 1 shot the snakes with a breath weapon.
I think that's the issue with a Ranger as primarily a caster. It falls off later because it does not have the spell levels to have a huge impact. Conversely, it can throw out some good damage with attacks. At the lower levels I think this works out fine. At level 9, the ranger can summon one of these Giant Constrictor Snakes and that will have a big impact. That said, most of their spells are either noncombat, spells that augment their martial prowess, or spells that will help out but not have a major impact.
Impressively well reasoned. Kudos Lehrer. I'm on board with swift quiver being the best boss slayer spell end game for the Ranger now.
I've never played at 17+ in 5e, just 3.5, but I can't imagine that the Ancient Red Dragon is the only type of encounter you will face. Surely there will be others that are not against 1 crazy powerful foe that can neutralize and kill multiple constrictors with little to no effort. Any time you're facing an encounter with a boss and its minions, the constrictors are going to put in work engaging the enemies that can't deal with them as handily as an ancient red. Giving your team breathing space to focus on high priority targets is a huge boon strategically, even if they deal little damage. There are also WAY more tactics than just two constrictors, and that means the spell has an incredible amount of minor use cases. I think it's too difficult to judge how often conjure animals will be good late game, but I do agree that swift quiver is the right tool for taking on things like an ancient red.
Considering the ranger doesn't have other battlefield control options at high level, I think conjure animals will still be a useful performer at 17+. It won't be something you cast all the time, and I now believe the real solution is to pack both. Pull out swift quiver when you need to light up a boss and use conjure animals when the enemy won't render them pitiful.
I still think swift squiver has to compete with guardian of nature at higher levels. The turn you cast it, swift quiver doesn't provide you with any benefits at all while guardian of nature already gives you advantage. Furthermore, swiftquiver takes up your bonus action every single turn so if you are playing a ranger who likes to use his bonusaction for other stuff i would stick to guardian of nature. Unless ofcourse you have another reliable source of advantage...
Yeah there might be some fodder that his could be useful for but I don't think it's your best option for your 5th level spell. Steel Wind Strike will likely be your best use of a 5th level slot against a lot of less significant enemies.
It somewhat depends. Guardian of Nature is a great spell and doesn't require your 5th level slot. For Beast Masters, or any build that already puts the bonus action to good use, this is a great option. It's also a good option for any target that is difficult to hit. Advantage largely negates the -5 to hit from sharpshooter so it helps to hit those hard to hit creatures. Still, 4 normal attacks vs 2 attacks at advantage are comparable in terms of average damage but the former has a much higher ceiling as all 4 attacks could hit. Plus other reliable sources of advantage make Guardian of Nature largely pointless, as you mention.
There are plenty of things Swift Quiver competes with but I think that when in doubt, it's a very strong option.