As anyone tried this? It just seems to good not to do, but I never see anyone discussing it. Aside from the amazing synergy with the rogue, you get a nice little bump to your dismal spell slots and spell selection. Max your Dex, take your Intelligence to 16.
Bladesong:
You gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
Your walking speed increases by 10 feet.
You have advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.
You gain a bonus to any Constitution saving throw you make to maintain your concentration on a spell. The bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
I'm a fan of a quick Wizard dip on Arcane Tricksters; I have a trickster coming up where I'm going to go Rogue 2/Wizard 1 initially, then trickster from there with a 2nd wizard level a little later, but my main focus for that is getting access to all the spells that I want, plus extra cantrips, so I'm less concerned about getting the 2nd level early.
There are a few sub-classes that can be good for a trickster, but Bladesinger is definitely one of the strongest; it has probably the best set of 2nd level features hands down as you get a skill and weapon proficiency in addition to Bladesong. Bladesong is also now based on your proficiency bonus which scales with character (not class) level so even a two level dip continues to scale without having to sacrifice any more levels in Rogue, and it's just a really good feature in general; most of the benefits are defensive so it works both for a stabby or ranged Rogue.
The main thing I would say though is that any multi-classing on a Rogue has to be done carefully, because we get so many good defensive features already, specifically Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, so delaying those can potentially be worse overall; a boost to AC will won't be much comfort if you get caught in a dragon's breath and can't evade it, for example, and the two level dip delays or even locks off one of our Ability Score Increases (depending upon what level you expect to reach), though we at least have a bonus one already.
Ultimately it's going to depend a lot on what your intention is for your trickster; trickster on its own is already really good, as you're basically multiclassing into Wizard without any less of Rogue progression, so any dip needs a clear purpose. For a close-range focused trickster it's definitely a nice option.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's hard for me to justify the 2 wizard levels before hitting Rogue 7, since you'd be delaying access to Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Shadow Blade. And by 7 you've already got another ASI around the corner. Oh yeah and the multiclassing rules suck for partial casters so that first wizard level isn't adding any spell slots unless your Rogue level is divisible by 3, so 2/3 of the time you're only ahead by 1 caster level, not 2.
My preferred 'dip' with a Arcane Trickster is actually 2 levels of Ranger. Especially if you have Elven Accuracy. The reason? 2 words: Zephyr Strike. Combo with Booming Blade, Zephyr Strike lets you run away without worry thereby forcing the enemy to chase you and trigger more boom. It also lets you trigger sneak attack regardless if an ally is close by. The fighting style is the cherry on top.
Shadow Blade is actually kinda weak on ATs mainly because by level 7 Booming Blade does equivalent damage with a rapier (more if you can trigger the movement boom). And by the time you can upcast it at level 13 Booming Blade has scaled up as well. In my opinion Shadow Blade requires the Extra Attack feature to be feasible on 1/3 casters like the AT.
Its certainly not bad. People seem to overestimate how much you lose out putting off rogue levels. But just dipping for a couple levels doesn't hurt that much.
And it does give you quite a bit of extra spells known, spell slots, arcane recovery, rituals, aside from bladesong. Really enhances the whole magical trickster archetype.
I've done this in an extended Alexandrian version of Dragon Heist Campaign that went until lvl 7. I loved it, but I actually ended up liking the bladesinger aspect so much more that my character actually ended up more wizard than rogue (trickster 3/bladesinger 4). In my opinion these two subclasses meshed incredibly well and always gave me interesting options wherever our party ended up in both combat or rp. I loved the insane number of cantrips it gave me along with the utility spells and rituals it allowed me to use at will without having to worry about spell slots. Need to scout out a target? No problem, I could send in my familiar first before following in on its tail using stealth to remain unseen. If it was really difficult, no problem I'll just cast invisibility on my familiar and send it in to locate our target before infiltrating to location to snag it or to take out the sentries unseen.
Combat? No problem either. If I was at a distance I was able to put my stealth to use and get my sneak attack in with my longbow and elven accuracy for basically double advantage. Melee? Booming blade and cunning action to disengage. If I was about to get hit, between bladesong and my shield spell I was able to avoid almost ever attack that would have hit me for almost the entire campaign and had the highest AC in the party.
If anything, I Kind of felt bad for just how well my subclasses meshed and how versatile my character was compared to the rest of the party.
How would you recommend leveling thst to 10th level? I have been think about using this for a one shot but don't quite know how to put it together
If I was going to play this in a one shot, I would go 4 rogue/6 wizard. Bladesinger wizard level 6 gets you the extra attack feature and a good bit of spell ability while Rogue 4 gets you your subclass as well as a feat/ASI. A good argument though could be made for going wizard 7/rogue 3 to get access to level 4 spells. You would miss out on your feat from being a rogue, but considering you get an additional level of wizards spells it could be worthwhile depending on which you prefer.
Yeah, once you start with Bladesinger it's really hard not to go all the way to 6. You get significantly better spells and the best version of Extra Attacks in the game.
I ended up going drow Arcane Trickster, and I'm fine not dipping Wizard. Use racial bonus to get an 18 DEX, and at level 4 took the Drow High Magic Feat. I'm more than covered with utility magic, and I'm not delaying those really nice Rogue perks by jumping into another class.
With that said, the build would work well. I think that you likely end up being a Bladesinger that dips Arcane Trickster for a few levels though.
I have played something similar. I am currently playing a level 4 AT, level 9 Bladesinger.
You get more power out of bladesinger levels, and the bladesinger extra attack at 6th level will eclipse what you get with two more sneak attack dice. This is especially true because you can use booming blade and still get a 2nd attack for a shot at a sneak attack and with TWF a third chance to land a sneak attack on any other AT you are limited to one shot for SA with booming blade. Also bladesinger 6 allows you to use truestrike to give advantage potentially enabling a sneak attack on your 2nd attack on the same turn when you have disadvantage or otherwise don't have the conditions for a sneak. This is really the only character I have ever found a use for truestrike.
I would start with an odd Intelligence and take Fey touched and Hex as the 1st level spell. This will make you deal a ton of damage with a free casting (and using 1st level slot after that). At 4AT/6Bladesinger you are looking at 4d8+4d6+2xDex per turn plus another 3d8 if the enemy moves. This compares with 3d8+5d6+1xDex with a normal 10th level AT.
Also bladesinger 6 allows you to use truestrike to give advantage potentially enabling a sneak attack on your 2nd attack on the same turn when you have disadvantage or otherwise don't have the conditions for a sneak. This is really the only character I have ever found a use for truestrike.
Nope. That does not work. True Strike is an irredeemable garbage spell that has zero applications lol.
If you wish to waste another minute on this spell try and reread it and notice the part where it says you have advantage on your NEXT turn. The true garbageness of this is that it also requires your concentration. Also it is a targeted spell so if the target dies or gets out of range, you will not get advantage on a different target. The absolutely uselessness of True Strike is truly without equal and should never be used unless it has been buffed with a House Rule.
I am currently an Arcane Trickster level 4 thinking of going wizard next level, giving up 1d6 sneak attack and uncanny dodge but gaining Green Flame Blade, Message, and Absorb Elements and Shield with my reaction instead of uncanny dodge, BB and GFB scale at level 5 so I will still see that boost. Should I continue Bladesinger to level 6 or is there a better break point?
I am currently an Arcane Trickster level 4 thinking of going wizard next level, giving up 1d6 sneak attack and uncanny dodge but gaining Green Flame Blade, Message, and Absorb Elements and Shield with my reaction instead of uncanny dodge, BB and GFB scale at level 5 so I will still see that boost. Should I continue Bladesinger to level 6 or is there a better break point?
I would strongly advise going to bladesinger 6. levels 6 and 10 are the ideal stopping points. I would also consider picking up Hex through Fey Touched.
I am currently an Arcane Trickster level 4 thinking of going wizard next level, giving up 1d6 sneak attack and uncanny dodge but gaining Green Flame Blade, Message, and Absorb Elements and Shield with my reaction instead of uncanny dodge, BB and GFB scale at level 5 so I will still see that boost. Should I continue Bladesinger to level 6 or is there a better break point?
If you have at least 16 Intelligence and at least 16 Dexterity now - in terms of combat power, at no point will it be better to take any more Rogue levels. Bladesinger 6 gives the best extra attack option in the game.
Your spells are going to outrun your SA dice and Uncanny Dodge is not as important when you have shield and absorb elements available.
The only thing worth more levels in Rogue are the skill abilities, sepcifically expertise at level 6 and reliable talent at level 11. Those can be game changers in a skill focused campaign, but in just about every other way more wizard levels will be better.
The reason? 2 words: Zephyr Strike. Combo with Booming Blade, Zephyr Strike lets you run away without worry thereby forcing the enemy to chase you and trigger more boom. It also lets you trigger sneak attack regardless if an ally is close by. The fighting style is the cherry on top.
Maybe. You can walk away anyway with cunning action or with misty step if you take a bladesinger. Also with my bladesinger-AT, I usually wanted to trigger OAs if I was moving, not avoid them. They drained enemy reactions allowing more mobility by other characters and taking away other reaction options.
Also if you took athletics for your Rogue expertise you can use shove pretty effectively to generate distance to both avoid AOOs and make the enemy move and take damage on his turn.
The reason? 2 words: Zephyr Strike. Combo with Booming Blade, Zephyr Strike lets you run away without worry thereby forcing the enemy to chase you and trigger more boom. It also lets you trigger sneak attack regardless if an ally is close by. The fighting style is the cherry on top.
Maybe. You can walk away anyway with cunning action or with misty step if you take a bladesinger. Also with my bladesinger-AT, I usually wanted to trigger OAs if I was moving, not avoid them. They drained enemy reactions allowing more mobility by other characters and taking away other reaction options.
Also if you took athletics for your Rogue expertise you can use shove pretty effectively to generate distance to both avoid AOOs and make the enemy move and take damage on his turn.
I am in no way undermining the synergy of a AT Bladesinger, however the original topic of this thread was a 2 level dip into Bladesinger, while that small investment still grants a lot of extra versatility and power to the AT, I felt a 2 level dip into Ranger would provide just as much benefits if not more. The main reason being Zephyr Strike which basically ticks every box a Booming Blade AT wants in a spell to power their sneak attacks.
As mentioned before the 2 levels in Ranger also provides a Fighting Style and also gives access to spells unavailable to the AT and by extension the Bladesinger like Cure Wounds. Its just my personal preference to go Ranger with AT for just a 2 level dip, a Bladesinger for 2 levels would also be a very good addition to a AT. There is no right or wrong answer.
Looking at AT 4/BS 2 what are some good 1st lvl wizards spells that would scale well to use 2nd lvl slots?
Cause Fear is probably the best control spell in tems of scaling, which is what I would favor on a baldesinger. The Frightened condition works really well with cunning action. You can move in and out and attack and they can never approach you and when you hide he has a -5 to passive perception.
Absorb elements and Catapult are decent too. Absorb elements is kind of a must have anyway IMO.
Another, in my opinion better use of those 2nd level slots is the Fey Touched, Shadow Touched or Telepathic feats, all of which give you second level spells you can use your 2nd level slots with. Of these my preference for an AT/Wizard would be Shadow Touched and cause fear.
As anyone tried this? It just seems to good not to do, but I never see anyone discussing it. Aside from the amazing synergy with the rogue, you get a nice little bump to your dismal spell slots and spell selection. Max your Dex, take your Intelligence to 16.
Bladesong:
I'm a fan of a quick Wizard dip on Arcane Tricksters; I have a trickster coming up where I'm going to go Rogue 2/Wizard 1 initially, then trickster from there with a 2nd wizard level a little later, but my main focus for that is getting access to all the spells that I want, plus extra cantrips, so I'm less concerned about getting the 2nd level early.
There are a few sub-classes that can be good for a trickster, but Bladesinger is definitely one of the strongest; it has probably the best set of 2nd level features hands down as you get a skill and weapon proficiency in addition to Bladesong. Bladesong is also now based on your proficiency bonus which scales with character (not class) level so even a two level dip continues to scale without having to sacrifice any more levels in Rogue, and it's just a really good feature in general; most of the benefits are defensive so it works both for a stabby or ranged Rogue.
The main thing I would say though is that any multi-classing on a Rogue has to be done carefully, because we get so many good defensive features already, specifically Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, so delaying those can potentially be worse overall; a boost to AC will won't be much comfort if you get caught in a dragon's breath and can't evade it, for example, and the two level dip delays or even locks off one of our Ability Score Increases (depending upon what level you expect to reach), though we at least have a bonus one already.
Ultimately it's going to depend a lot on what your intention is for your trickster; trickster on its own is already really good, as you're basically multiclassing into Wizard without any less of Rogue progression, so any dip needs a clear purpose. For a close-range focused trickster it's definitely a nice option.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
It's hard for me to justify the 2 wizard levels before hitting Rogue 7, since you'd be delaying access to Uncanny Dodge, Evasion and Shadow Blade. And by 7 you've already got another ASI around the corner. Oh yeah and the multiclassing rules suck for partial casters so that first wizard level isn't adding any spell slots unless your Rogue level is divisible by 3, so 2/3 of the time you're only ahead by 1 caster level, not 2.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
My preferred 'dip' with a Arcane Trickster is actually 2 levels of Ranger. Especially if you have Elven Accuracy. The reason? 2 words: Zephyr Strike. Combo with Booming Blade, Zephyr Strike lets you run away without worry thereby forcing the enemy to chase you and trigger more boom. It also lets you trigger sneak attack regardless if an ally is close by. The fighting style is the cherry on top.
Shadow Blade is actually kinda weak on ATs mainly because by level 7 Booming Blade does equivalent damage with a rapier (more if you can trigger the movement boom). And by the time you can upcast it at level 13 Booming Blade has scaled up as well. In my opinion Shadow Blade requires the Extra Attack feature to be feasible on 1/3 casters like the AT.
Its certainly not bad. People seem to overestimate how much you lose out putting off rogue levels. But just dipping for a couple levels doesn't hurt that much.
And it does give you quite a bit of extra spells known, spell slots, arcane recovery, rituals, aside from bladesong. Really enhances the whole magical trickster archetype.
I've done this in an extended Alexandrian version of Dragon Heist Campaign that went until lvl 7. I loved it, but I actually ended up liking the bladesinger aspect so much more that my character actually ended up more wizard than rogue (trickster 3/bladesinger 4). In my opinion these two subclasses meshed incredibly well and always gave me interesting options wherever our party ended up in both combat or rp. I loved the insane number of cantrips it gave me along with the utility spells and rituals it allowed me to use at will without having to worry about spell slots. Need to scout out a target? No problem, I could send in my familiar first before following in on its tail using stealth to remain unseen. If it was really difficult, no problem I'll just cast invisibility on my familiar and send it in to locate our target before infiltrating to location to snag it or to take out the sentries unseen.
Combat? No problem either. If I was at a distance I was able to put my stealth to use and get my sneak attack in with my longbow and elven accuracy for basically double advantage. Melee? Booming blade and cunning action to disengage. If I was about to get hit, between bladesong and my shield spell I was able to avoid almost ever attack that would have hit me for almost the entire campaign and had the highest AC in the party.
If anything, I Kind of felt bad for just how well my subclasses meshed and how versatile my character was compared to the rest of the party.
How would you recommend leveling thst to 10th level? I have been think about using this for a one shot but don't quite know how to put it together
If I was going to play this in a one shot, I would go 4 rogue/6 wizard. Bladesinger wizard level 6 gets you the extra attack feature and a good bit of spell ability while Rogue 4 gets you your subclass as well as a feat/ASI. A good argument though could be made for going wizard 7/rogue 3 to get access to level 4 spells. You would miss out on your feat from being a rogue, but considering you get an additional level of wizards spells it could be worthwhile depending on which you prefer.
Yeah, once you start with Bladesinger it's really hard not to go all the way to 6. You get significantly better spells and the best version of Extra Attacks in the game.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I ended up going drow Arcane Trickster, and I'm fine not dipping Wizard. Use racial bonus to get an 18 DEX, and at level 4 took the Drow High Magic Feat. I'm more than covered with utility magic, and I'm not delaying those really nice Rogue perks by jumping into another class.
With that said, the build would work well. I think that you likely end up being a Bladesinger that dips Arcane Trickster for a few levels though.
I have played something similar. I am currently playing a level 4 AT, level 9 Bladesinger.
You get more power out of bladesinger levels, and the bladesinger extra attack at 6th level will eclipse what you get with two more sneak attack dice. This is especially true because you can use booming blade and still get a 2nd attack for a shot at a sneak attack and with TWF a third chance to land a sneak attack on any other AT you are limited to one shot for SA with booming blade. Also bladesinger 6 allows you to use truestrike to give advantage potentially enabling a sneak attack on your 2nd attack on the same turn when you have disadvantage or otherwise don't have the conditions for a sneak. This is really the only character I have ever found a use for truestrike.
I would start with an odd Intelligence and take Fey touched and Hex as the 1st level spell. This will make you deal a ton of damage with a free casting (and using 1st level slot after that). At 4AT/6Bladesinger you are looking at 4d8+4d6+2xDex per turn plus another 3d8 if the enemy moves. This compares with 3d8+5d6+1xDex with a normal 10th level AT.
Nope. That does not work. True Strike is an irredeemable garbage spell that has zero applications lol.
If you wish to waste another minute on this spell try and reread it and notice the part where it says you have advantage on your NEXT turn. The true garbageness of this is that it also requires your concentration. Also it is a targeted spell so if the target dies or gets out of range, you will not get advantage on a different target. The absolutely uselessness of True Strike is truly without equal and should never be used unless it has been buffed with a House Rule.
I am currently an Arcane Trickster level 4 thinking of going wizard next level, giving up 1d6 sneak attack and uncanny dodge but gaining Green Flame Blade, Message, and Absorb Elements and Shield with my reaction instead of uncanny dodge, BB and GFB scale at level 5 so I will still see that boost. Should I continue Bladesinger to level 6 or is there a better break point?
I would strongly advise going to bladesinger 6. levels 6 and 10 are the ideal stopping points. I would also consider picking up Hex through Fey Touched.
If you have at least 16 Intelligence and at least 16 Dexterity now - in terms of combat power, at no point will it be better to take any more Rogue levels. Bladesinger 6 gives the best extra attack option in the game.
Your spells are going to outrun your SA dice and Uncanny Dodge is not as important when you have shield and absorb elements available.
The only thing worth more levels in Rogue are the skill abilities, sepcifically expertise at level 6 and reliable talent at level 11. Those can be game changers in a skill focused campaign, but in just about every other way more wizard levels will be better.
Maybe. You can walk away anyway with cunning action or with misty step if you take a bladesinger. Also with my bladesinger-AT, I usually wanted to trigger OAs if I was moving, not avoid them. They drained enemy reactions allowing more mobility by other characters and taking away other reaction options.
Also if you took athletics for your Rogue expertise you can use shove pretty effectively to generate distance to both avoid AOOs and make the enemy move and take damage on his turn.
I am in no way undermining the synergy of a AT Bladesinger, however the original topic of this thread was a 2 level dip into Bladesinger, while that small investment still grants a lot of extra versatility and power to the AT, I felt a 2 level dip into Ranger would provide just as much benefits if not more. The main reason being Zephyr Strike which basically ticks every box a Booming Blade AT wants in a spell to power their sneak attacks.
As mentioned before the 2 levels in Ranger also provides a Fighting Style and also gives access to spells unavailable to the AT and by extension the Bladesinger like Cure Wounds. Its just my personal preference to go Ranger with AT for just a 2 level dip, a Bladesinger for 2 levels would also be a very good addition to a AT. There is no right or wrong answer.
I agree, I'll still get 2nd lvl spells at character level 7, more of them, no restrictions on spell school, and not delay my next ASI
Looking at AT 4/BS 2 what are some good 1st lvl wizards spells that would scale well to use 2nd lvl slots?
Cause Fear is probably the best control spell in tems of scaling, which is what I would favor on a baldesinger. The Frightened condition works really well with cunning action. You can move in and out and attack and they can never approach you and when you hide he has a -5 to passive perception.
Absorb elements and Catapult are decent too. Absorb elements is kind of a must have anyway IMO.
Another, in my opinion better use of those 2nd level slots is the Fey Touched, Shadow Touched or Telepathic feats, all of which give you second level spells you can use your 2nd level slots with. Of these my preference for an AT/Wizard would be Shadow Touched and cause fear.