Thinking of ways to utilize as much sneak attack damage as possible through enemy turns via sentinel feat. Multiclassing arcane trickster rogue with trickery domain cleric seems like a fun combination.
***Is this worth it and has someone else who has made something similar have some insight and advice? How would you prioritize your actions for best damage efficiency?***
1) Rogue 1: sneak attack 1d6, expertise: stealth, perception 2) Rogue 2: cunning action 3) Rogue 3: arcane trickster, sneak attack 2d6, booming blade 4) Rogue 4: feat: elven accuracy +1 dex = 17 (+3) 5) Cleric 1: trickery domain 6) Cleric 2: invoke duplicity Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target. 7) Cleric 3: mirror image, spiritual weapon 8) Cleric 4: feat: sentinel When a creature within your reach makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
***With the following feats and spells achieved, what would be the best way to use your actions?***
round 1: move up to enemy, invoke duplicity near enemy, spiritual weapon (1d8+2)=6.5 damage reaction 1 (50% chance of happening if they attack the duplicate): rapier + sneak attack = (1d8+3)+2d6 = (4.5+3)+7 = 14.5 damage round 2: cast mirror image, spiritual weapon (1d8+2)=6.5 reaction 2 (75% chance of happening if they only attack the mirror images, might be higher if they also confuse the duplicate 87.5% chance): rapier + sneak attack = (1d8+3)+2d6 = (4.5+3)+7 = 14.5 damage round 3: booming blade (rapier) + sneak attack + spiritual weapon = (2d8+3)+(2d6)+(1d8+2)=(9+3)+(7)+(4.5+2)=25.5 damage
***Damage calculations above don't include the bonuses from advantage/elven accuracy, don't know how to calculate that, but that should increase overall damage output .***
9) Rogue 5: uncanny dodge, sneak attack 3d6 10) Rogue 6: expertise: sleight of hand, thieves' tools 11) Rogue 7: evasion, sneak attack 4d6 12) Rogue 8: feat: piercer +1 dex = 18 (+4) 13) Rogue 9: magical ambush, sneak attack: 5d6 14) Rogue 10: ASI: +2 dex = 20 (+5) 15-20) Either continue Rogue for increasing sneak attack damage and gaining other rogue features, or can even go extra levels of Cleric for x2 Invoke Duplicity per rest at Cleric 6, with a fun "capstone" with Divine Intervention at level 10 cleric, level 20 overall, rare, but hey your trickster god likes to play games ~_^ haha
Never went through Invoke Duplicity from Trickery Cleric, but I actually did a similar combo leveraging Mirror Image spell. It’s open to DM approval, but I found it’s super useful.
However, Mirror Image does not qualify the criteria necessary for the the extra damage from sneak attack, which is what I am going for with Invoke Duplicity:
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll (Invoke Duplicity is one way of getting consistent advantage, and so is Find Familiar as stated by the reddit link). The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it (Mirror Image duplicates don't count as a true enemy), that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
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Of course, this is assuming if I am by myself for some reason. The most likely scenario will be that I am fighting alongside an ally, which can help not needing advantage to get sneak attack damage.
Round 1: Cast mirror image, walk up to enemy near fellow ally. Reaction 1: (75% chance of happening if they target the mirror images: rapier + sneak attack = (1d8+3)+2d6 = (4.5+3)+7 = 14.5 damage Round 2: booming blade (rapier) + sneak attack = (2d8+3)+(2d6)=(9+3)+(7)=19 damage
This was a helpful exercise though, I realize now that with the above action order that it may not be necessary to multiclass to get the same results. Mirror image is available for Arcane Trickster Rogue by level 7, which would be the same as multiclassing into Cleric Trickery Domain for 3 levels. And either path still wont get the Sentinel feat until character is level 8, so might as well just go straight rogue for at least 8 levels first.
Multi-classing into cleric after level 8 however may still be beneficial because it will give you a lot more Level 2 spell slots to play with in an entire day, thereby allowing you to get the Mirror Image, Sentinel combination off more consistently.
I guess the real question is, how useful is it to have a Duplicate and gain cleric spell slots and spell list? Is it worth slowing your arcane trickster progression to level 3 spells?
I don't think trickster cleric is worth it. Awesome domain, but Arcane Trickster is a very strong self-contained package. Getting to reliable talent and 3rd level spells is very good as is stacking as much sneak attack damage as possible.
I would definitely roll with a straight AT that picks up sentinel at 8. It'll do everything you're looking for without the fuss.
I agree with Heironymus. Go straight Arcane Trickster up to level 10 without even thinking in multiclass. After that, I would strongly recommend to take a look at Wizard, specially War Magic to boost your weak savings throws.
Two more things to add to your analysis are: - Even though your familiar will give you advantage only in your turn, you can keep it near to your enemy if you don't have any allies near and ensure you'll be proc'ing SA all the time. - Don't forget the possibility to easily get advantage through Shadow Blade if you are fighting at Dim light -- something actually common.
As others have said, AT is a great self-contained unit. That being said, I can see you MC'ing into Fighter for one level, and only one level. The benefits to a low level Rogue are enormous, though the value diminishes at higher levels.
But it does give you access to one weapon that can be a game-changer: The Whip. It is Reach AND Finesse, so it is perfect for a Dex based Rogue, and eligible for Sneak Attack, and with a 10 foot range, well, you can imagine how Opportunity Attacks can work. You want to fool with Sentinel, that is your choice. Frankly, I think it is an OP Feat, like Observant, and as a DM hate it, and as a player, won't take it because I don't want my DM to hate me. If you can manage it, Warcaster as mentioned is a nice mix, or perhaps the new Slasher feat.
Well, to be honest... my biggest issue with this build is that its not coming on line until character level 8. Given that most games end around 10-11, that's the majority of your adventuring career unable to execute the your basic premises.
My second gripe is that I'm not really sure what role you're playing at here. It seems like you're trying to play this character as a tank. That's basically what sentinel does, after all - and you can't be hiding if you're relying on the bonus action Spiritual Weapon. So, you are planting yourself in the middle, and attract attention to yourself. This is a bit tricky - you're burning your ASI for feats, you can wear medium armor but you have two stealth-based classes, so you're either going to hurt your stealth, or you're going to be even lower on AC with not-the-best HP. You also lack Strength save proficiency - despite being called one of the lesser saves, it shows up with high frequency in the forms of knock downs, shoves, grapples and the like. While not necessarily a huge deal normally, this is a bit worrying if your built around Sentinel for the off-beat attack. Mirror image at character level 7 is quite the ways away.
I'm also extremely leery about your performance when time between rests stretch. Channel Divinity is once per rest at this point, and a key generation of your advantage. Most of the time, you'll have at least two battles between short rests. Maybe more. You can only use it during one fight (1 minute duration) before needing it again. You're relying on mirror image to avoid damage, but that's going to go down really fast, and you're going to burn through your spell slots super fast. I'm severely worried about any staying-power.
Sometimes you need to revisit the initial goal and make sure your build is achieving it. This is an interesting way to leverage off-turn attacks and a fun combination of mechanics, but does it actually result in maximum damage efficiency?
Consider it takes two turns to set up. For the combo to be effective, you need to be triggering that OA at least 3 times per battle to make up that lost ground. This is a lot to hope for as it requires the enemy to do what you want several times in a row and that rarely happens in a real encounter.
And even if you can make up the lost damage, it's still happening later in the fight which translates to more enemy attacks and spells. Knocking even one enemy out of a fight early can shift the difficulty by a lot, so builds that require setup rounds need a big payoff to compensate.
Not to say that this build doesn't have a place. This is just the kind of 'unoptimized optimization' that can allow a powergamer type to have fun playing alongside a less optimized party. Let the other players shine for the first 2 rounds and then you can help clean things up in the back half of the fight. It could be pretty fun to RP as well.
Thinking of ways to utilize as much sneak attack damage as possible through enemy turns via sentinel feat. Multiclassing arcane trickster rogue with trickery domain cleric seems like a fun combination.
***Is this worth it and has someone else who has made something similar have some insight and advice? How would you prioritize your actions for best damage efficiency?***
Race: High Elf
str: 8 (-1)
dex: 14+2=16 (+3)
con: 14 (+2)
int: 13+1=14 (+2)
wis: 14 (+2)
cha: 9 (-1)
1) Rogue 1: sneak attack 1d6, expertise: stealth, perception
2) Rogue 2: cunning action
3) Rogue 3: arcane trickster, sneak attack 2d6, booming blade
4) Rogue 4: feat: elven accuracy +1 dex = 17 (+3)
5) Cleric 1: trickery domain
6) Cleric 2: invoke duplicity
Additionally, when both you and your illusion are within 5 feet of a creature that can see the illusion, you have advantage on attack rolls against that creature, given how distracting the illusion is to the target.
7) Cleric 3: mirror image, spiritual weapon
8) Cleric 4: feat: sentinel
When a creature within your reach makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
***With the following feats and spells achieved, what would be the best way to use your actions?***
round 1: move up to enemy, invoke duplicity near enemy, spiritual weapon (1d8+2)=6.5 damage
reaction 1 (50% chance of happening if they attack the duplicate): rapier + sneak attack = (1d8+3)+2d6 = (4.5+3)+7 = 14.5 damage
round 2: cast mirror image, spiritual weapon (1d8+2)=6.5
reaction 2 (75% chance of happening if they only attack the mirror images, might be higher if they also confuse the duplicate 87.5% chance): rapier + sneak attack = (1d8+3)+2d6 = (4.5+3)+7 = 14.5 damage
round 3: booming blade (rapier) + sneak attack + spiritual weapon = (2d8+3)+(2d6)+(1d8+2)=(9+3)+(7)+(4.5+2)=25.5 damage
***Damage calculations above don't include the bonuses from advantage/elven accuracy, don't know how to calculate that, but that should increase overall damage output .***
9) Rogue 5: uncanny dodge, sneak attack 3d6
10) Rogue 6: expertise: sleight of hand, thieves' tools
11) Rogue 7: evasion, sneak attack 4d6
12) Rogue 8: feat: piercer +1 dex = 18 (+4)
13) Rogue 9: magical ambush, sneak attack: 5d6
14) Rogue 10: ASI: +2 dex = 20 (+5)
15-20) Either continue Rogue for increasing sneak attack damage and gaining other rogue features, or can even go extra levels of Cleric for x2 Invoke Duplicity per rest at Cleric 6, with a fun "capstone" with Divine Intervention at level 10 cleric, level 20 overall, rare, but hey your trickster god likes to play games ~_^ haha
Never went through Invoke Duplicity from Trickery Cleric, but I actually did a similar combo leveraging Mirror Image spell. It’s open to DM approval, but I found it’s super useful.
Oh wow, I didnt realize Mirror Image by itself would help trigger the effect of Sentinel for a reaction attack, good to know:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1047624526442323968
However, Mirror Image does not qualify the criteria necessary for the the extra damage from sneak attack, which is what I am going for with Invoke Duplicity:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/afxrr3/mirror_image_and_sneak_attack/
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll (Invoke Duplicity is one way of getting consistent advantage, and so is Find Familiar as stated by the reddit link). The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it (Mirror Image duplicates don't count as a true enemy), that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
-----------------
Of course, this is assuming if I am by myself for some reason. The most likely scenario will be that I am fighting alongside an ally, which can help not needing advantage to get sneak attack damage.
Round 1: Cast mirror image, walk up to enemy near fellow ally.
Reaction 1: (75% chance of happening if they target the mirror images: rapier + sneak attack = (1d8+3)+2d6 = (4.5+3)+7 = 14.5 damage
Round 2: booming blade (rapier) + sneak attack = (2d8+3)+(2d6)=(9+3)+(7)=19 damage
This was a helpful exercise though, I realize now that with the above action order that it may not be necessary to multiclass to get the same results. Mirror image is available for Arcane Trickster Rogue by level 7, which would be the same as multiclassing into Cleric Trickery Domain for 3 levels. And either path still wont get the Sentinel feat until character is level 8, so might as well just go straight rogue for at least 8 levels first.
Multi-classing into cleric after level 8 however may still be beneficial because it will give you a lot more Level 2 spell slots to play with in an entire day, thereby allowing you to get the Mirror Image, Sentinel combination off more consistently.
I guess the real question is, how useful is it to have a Duplicate and gain cleric spell slots and spell list? Is it worth slowing your arcane trickster progression to level 3 spells?
I don't think trickster cleric is worth it. Awesome domain, but Arcane Trickster is a very strong self-contained package. Getting to reliable talent and 3rd level spells is very good as is stacking as much sneak attack damage as possible.
I would definitely roll with a straight AT that picks up sentinel at 8. It'll do everything you're looking for without the fuss.
I agree with Heironymus. Go straight Arcane Trickster up to level 10 without even thinking in multiclass. After that, I would strongly recommend to take a look at Wizard, specially War Magic to boost your weak savings throws.
Two more things to add to your analysis are:
- Even though your familiar will give you advantage only in your turn, you can keep it near to your enemy if you don't have any allies near and ensure you'll be proc'ing SA all the time.
- Don't forget the possibility to easily get advantage through Shadow Blade if you are fighting at Dim light -- something actually common.
As others have said, AT is a great self-contained unit. That being said, I can see you MC'ing into Fighter for one level, and only one level. The benefits to a low level Rogue are enormous, though the value diminishes at higher levels.
But it does give you access to one weapon that can be a game-changer: The Whip. It is Reach AND Finesse, so it is perfect for a Dex based Rogue, and eligible for Sneak Attack, and with a 10 foot range, well, you can imagine how Opportunity Attacks can work. You want to fool with Sentinel, that is your choice. Frankly, I think it is an OP Feat, like Observant, and as a DM hate it, and as a player, won't take it because I don't want my DM to hate me. If you can manage it, Warcaster as mentioned is a nice mix, or perhaps the new Slasher feat.
Hm... viable?
Well, to be honest... my biggest issue with this build is that its not coming on line until character level 8. Given that most games end around 10-11, that's the majority of your adventuring career unable to execute the your basic premises.
My second gripe is that I'm not really sure what role you're playing at here. It seems like you're trying to play this character as a tank. That's basically what sentinel does, after all - and you can't be hiding if you're relying on the bonus action Spiritual Weapon. So, you are planting yourself in the middle, and attract attention to yourself. This is a bit tricky - you're burning your ASI for feats, you can wear medium armor but you have two stealth-based classes, so you're either going to hurt your stealth, or you're going to be even lower on AC with not-the-best HP. You also lack Strength save proficiency - despite being called one of the lesser saves, it shows up with high frequency in the forms of knock downs, shoves, grapples and the like. While not necessarily a huge deal normally, this is a bit worrying if your built around Sentinel for the off-beat attack. Mirror image at character level 7 is quite the ways away.
I'm also extremely leery about your performance when time between rests stretch. Channel Divinity is once per rest at this point, and a key generation of your advantage. Most of the time, you'll have at least two battles between short rests. Maybe more. You can only use it during one fight (1 minute duration) before needing it again. You're relying on mirror image to avoid damage, but that's going to go down really fast, and you're going to burn through your spell slots super fast. I'm severely worried about any staying-power.
Sometimes you need to revisit the initial goal and make sure your build is achieving it. This is an interesting way to leverage off-turn attacks and a fun combination of mechanics, but does it actually result in maximum damage efficiency?
Consider it takes two turns to set up. For the combo to be effective, you need to be triggering that OA at least 3 times per battle to make up that lost ground. This is a lot to hope for as it requires the enemy to do what you want several times in a row and that rarely happens in a real encounter.
And even if you can make up the lost damage, it's still happening later in the fight which translates to more enemy attacks and spells. Knocking even one enemy out of a fight early can shift the difficulty by a lot, so builds that require setup rounds need a big payoff to compensate.
Not to say that this build doesn't have a place. This is just the kind of 'unoptimized optimization' that can allow a powergamer type to have fun playing alongside a less optimized party. Let the other players shine for the first 2 rounds and then you can help clean things up in the back half of the fight. It could be pretty fun to RP as well.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm