I don't know the exact answer to this, but I would say that the amount of people who worship or venerate any entity increases the power of that entity. Only entities with a certain amount of worshipers or devout followers can grant magic to their followers, while Warlocks are significantly easier to make as you give your magic to another than to grant spells for others.
**Spoiler Alert for Critical Role (campaign 2 episode 94)**
Not sure about how this applies to other settings, but in Critical Role, the Traveler is revealed to be an Archfey that rose to the position of godhood (or at least lesser-godhood) because of the devotion of Jester. She basically inspired him to start collecting worshippers, and that's how he became a full god.
I'd say, in Wildemount at least, that it depends on the strength of the entity's following and their devotion to it.
I don't know the exact answer to this, but I would say that the amount of people who worship or venerate any entity increases the power of that entity. Only entities with a certain amount of worshipers or devout followers can grant magic to their followers, while Warlocks are significantly easier to make as you give your magic to another than to grant spells for others.
**Spoiler Alert for Critical Role (campaign 2 episode 94)**
Not sure about how this applies to other settings, but in Critical Role, the Traveler is revealed to be an Archfey that rose to the position of godhood (or at least lesser-godhood) because of the devotion of Jester. She basically inspired him to start collecting worshippers, and that's how he became a full god.
I'd say, in Wildemount at least, that it depends on the strength of the entity's following and their devotion to it.
Yes, that video I linked in my last post talks about how evil gods have less followers, but they're more devout, so it balances out the gods' power.
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YGiraffe, ARchfeys and Demon Lords are eqquivalent to DEMIGODS. Lesser Gods are still far more powerful than any demigod. 3.5e had divine rank rules.
Not all Archfey and Demon Lords are equivalent to demigods, some of them are, but not all.
Exactly. It depends on the Archfey/Demon Lord. Some are lesser gods, some are demigods, some aren't even demigods.
The same applies for other entities, like archdevils. In some settings, Asmodeus is considered a major god. He's an archdevil, albeit a powerful one. On the other hand, Zariel, another archdevil, would definitely not be considered a major god. She's a demigod at the most. It depends on the individual, and how powerful they are.
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YGiraffe, ARchfeys and Demon Lords are eqquivalent to DEMIGODS. Lesser Gods are still far more powerful than any demigod. 3.5e had divine rank rules.
Not all Archfey and Demon Lords are equivalent to demigods, some of them are, but not all.
Exactly. It depends on the Archfey/Demon Lord. Some are lesser gods, some are demigods, some aren't even demigods.
The same applies for other entities, like archdevils. In some settings, Asmodeus is considered a major god. He's an archdevil, albeit a powerful one. On the other hand, Zariel, another archdevil, would definitely not be considered a major god. She's a demigod at the most. It depends on the individual, and how powerful they are.
There's Titivilus, who's an Archdevil, but only CR 16, IIRC. There's definitely a range of power in Archfiends, I agree. I would say Zariel is a demigod, even when turned back into an angel.
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The DMG's description of quasi-deities says that they cannot grant divine power to clerics. Vestiges (one of the types of quasi-deities) are gods that fell from popularity. They're still divine beings, but their lack of followers prevents them from granting divine power. This shows that their's at least some correlation between devotion and the ability to grant spells to clerics. If a god loses popularity, they can't grant spells.
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All I can think of with the "warlock patrons don't give anything but knowledge" angle is the old "Wizards don't want you to know this one SECRET TRICK to everlasting power!" crapass Internet ads. Hueh.
But seriously. Why would anyone ever make a warlock pact if the only thing the patron does is make you do the same junk the wizard does - study, learn, and use your brain to figure things out any schmuck could do if they knew how?
All I can think of with the "warlock patrons don't give anything but knowledge" angle is the old "Wizards don't want you to know this one SECRET TRICK to everlasting power!" crapass Internet ads. Hueh.
But seriously. Why would anyone ever make a warlock pact if the only thing the patron does is make you do the same junk the wizard does - study, learn, and use your brain to figure things out any schmuck could do if they knew how?
Exactly this. You can go to work and grind everyday and take years to earn your 500k, /or/ you can drive a load of cocaine from El Paso to Miami and get it NOW.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The DMG's description of quasi-deities says that they cannot grant divine power to clerics. Vestiges (one of the types of quasi-deities) are gods that fell from popularity. They're still divine beings, but their lack of followers prevents them from granting divine power. This shows that their's at least some correlation between devotion and the ability to grant spells to clerics. If a god loses popularity, they can't grant spells.
Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity.
Not enough followers or not enough devoted followers could both be causes. That's an interesting angle that might have to become a theme of a campaign...
All I can think of with the "warlock patrons don't give anything but knowledge" angle is the old "Wizards don't want you to know this one SECRET TRICK to everlasting power!" crapass Internet ads. Hueh.
But seriously. Why would anyone ever make a warlock pact if the only thing the patron does is make you do the same junk the wizard does - study, learn, and use your brain to figure things out any schmuck could do if they knew how?
Exactly this. You can go to work and grind everyday and take years to earn your 500k, /or/ you can drive a load of cocaine from El Paso to Miami and get it NOW.
Yes. Warlocks take a shortcut to magic, while every other caster is limited. Wizards need spellbooks and years to study, Clerics have to venerate a deity, Paladins have to keep an oath, Artificers have to copy magic through inventions and infusions. Sorcerers are born with magic, Bards sing, I guess. Druids draw power from aspects of nature, and Rangers draw power from their favored terrain.
Warlocks make a one-time deal promising x for y power. They don't have to do anything to maintain this power. They get it, and they can get more powerful over time from using it more, gaining more experience on how to use the arcane power.
Warlocks aren't clerics. Clerics have to serve a deity and pray to it. Warlocks take the easy way out.
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That's what I mean. The warlock has to receive something from the patron that can't be had any other way. Otherwise the 'shortcut' would become known over time and there would be no need for mortals to make those sorts of bargains. If a player wants the patron to give knowledge and only knowledge, no power at all, that knowledge itself would have to be eldritch in some way. Something that, by its nature, cannot be written down or shared by anything kith, knowledge that CANNOT be imparted by any creature save one of these immortal Powers.
Elsewise what you have is just a different school of wizardry, and ain't nobody wants that shit.
Warlocks derive their power through *contracts* and *relationships* with their patron. A deity grants powers through *belief* and *supplication*, which is more indirect. This is the difference between acting out of a working relationship and acting out of faith. Neither is better or worse, just different. It's the mechanical chassis for the channeling of power. As the OP said, Warlocks aren't clerics and shouldn't be expected to act accordingly. The warlocks took the deal on the table from the company, sometimes under duress, sometimes not. The clerics are working at an NGO towards more idealized advancement goals and hopes of saving the world (or destroying it, depending on the deity).
I reject The notion that the Warlock took "the easy way." Working on a contract that your boss sets the primary rules for and only gets you advancement based on that relationship isn't "easy." It's very direct and straightforward, but nothing to me says easy, particularly if the DM formalizes the contract terms and makes you roleplay them.
One class gets its power from Wisdom, the other gets its power from Charisma. Neither one gets its power from intelligence.
Knowledge (i.e. Intelligence) is power, but knowledge is not the source of a Cleric's power or a Warlock's power.
No one gets power from their ability scores when it comes to spellcasting. Those abilities amplify and focus the powers. You can be a Wizard with a -5 in intelligence, and you still can cast spells, but your mental score that focuses your power isn't strong enough to be effective in most cases.
Ability Scores don't grant you power. Clerics get power from their devotion to their gods. Warlocks get it from a pact.
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**Spoiler Alert for Critical Role (campaign 2 episode 94)**
Not sure about how this applies to other settings, but in Critical Role, the Traveler is revealed to be an Archfey that rose to the position of godhood (or at least lesser-godhood) because of the devotion of Jester. She basically inspired him to start collecting worshippers, and that's how he became a full god.
I'd say, in Wildemount at least, that it depends on the strength of the entity's following and their devotion to it.
Please check out my homebrew and give me feedback!
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Yes, that video I linked in my last post talks about how evil gods have less followers, but they're more devout, so it balances out the gods' power.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
To add to that Explorer's Guide to Wildemount sets up several beings as minor deities AND warlock patrons.
The Traveler, for example, has both trickery domain clerics and archfey warlocks.
YGiraffe, ARchfeys and Demon Lords are eqquivalent to DEMIGODS. Lesser Gods are still far more powerful than any demigod. 3.5e had divine rank rules.
Not all Archfey and Demon Lords are equivalent to demigods, some of them are, but not all.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Exactly. It depends on the Archfey/Demon Lord. Some are lesser gods, some are demigods, some aren't even demigods.
The same applies for other entities, like archdevils. In some settings, Asmodeus is considered a major god. He's an archdevil, albeit a powerful one. On the other hand, Zariel, another archdevil, would definitely not be considered a major god. She's a demigod at the most. It depends on the individual, and how powerful they are.
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There's Titivilus, who's an Archdevil, but only CR 16, IIRC. There's definitely a range of power in Archfiends, I agree. I would say Zariel is a demigod, even when turned back into an angel.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
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Yeah. Also, back to the devotion thing...
The DMG's description of quasi-deities says that they cannot grant divine power to clerics. Vestiges (one of the types of quasi-deities) are gods that fell from popularity. They're still divine beings, but their lack of followers prevents them from granting divine power. This shows that their's at least some correlation between devotion and the ability to grant spells to clerics. If a god loses popularity, they can't grant spells.
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Karsus is a vestige. There's a vestige of an old/deceased Primus. Vestiges are kind of different, as they normally don't have many followers.
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Karsus can be your patron on 5e(not sure), it is another evidence that you learn from your patron, not draw the power from your patron....
Karsus can be your patron, yes. He is a Great Old One, but I do have a Hexblade warlock that made an indirect pact with him.
You don't really learn your power from your warlock patron, it's more like they give you permanent power.
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It is however the player imagines it I would guess. I want to make Human Tomepact Fiendlock as a complete Julian Sands rip-off.
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All I can think of with the "warlock patrons don't give anything but knowledge" angle is the old "Wizards don't want you to know this one SECRET TRICK to everlasting power!" crapass Internet ads. Hueh.
But seriously. Why would anyone ever make a warlock pact if the only thing the patron does is make you do the same junk the wizard does - study, learn, and use your brain to figure things out any schmuck could do if they knew how?
Please do not contact or message me.
Exactly this. You can go to work and grind everyday and take years to earn your 500k, /or/ you can drive a load of cocaine from El Paso to Miami and get it NOW.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity.
Not enough followers or not enough devoted followers could both be causes. That's an interesting angle that might have to become a theme of a campaign...
Yes. Warlocks take a shortcut to magic, while every other caster is limited. Wizards need spellbooks and years to study, Clerics have to venerate a deity, Paladins have to keep an oath, Artificers have to copy magic through inventions and infusions. Sorcerers are born with magic, Bards sing, I guess. Druids draw power from aspects of nature, and Rangers draw power from their favored terrain.
Warlocks make a one-time deal promising x for y power. They don't have to do anything to maintain this power. They get it, and they can get more powerful over time from using it more, gaining more experience on how to use the arcane power.
Warlocks aren't clerics. Clerics have to serve a deity and pray to it. Warlocks take the easy way out.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
That's what I mean. The warlock has to receive something from the patron that can't be had any other way. Otherwise the 'shortcut' would become known over time and there would be no need for mortals to make those sorts of bargains. If a player wants the patron to give knowledge and only knowledge, no power at all, that knowledge itself would have to be eldritch in some way. Something that, by its nature, cannot be written down or shared by anything kith, knowledge that CANNOT be imparted by any creature save one of these immortal Powers.
Elsewise what you have is just a different school of wizardry, and ain't nobody wants that shit.
Please do not contact or message me.
One class gets its power from Wisdom, the other gets its power from Charisma. Neither one gets its power from intelligence.
Knowledge (i.e. Intelligence) is power, but knowledge is not the source of a Cleric's power or a Warlock's power.
Warlocks derive their power through *contracts* and *relationships* with their patron. A deity grants powers through *belief* and *supplication*, which is more indirect. This is the difference between acting out of a working relationship and acting out of faith. Neither is better or worse, just different. It's the mechanical chassis for the channeling of power. As the OP said, Warlocks aren't clerics and shouldn't be expected to act accordingly. The warlocks took the deal on the table from the company, sometimes under duress, sometimes not. The clerics are working at an NGO towards more idealized advancement goals and hopes of saving the world (or destroying it, depending on the deity).
I reject The notion that the Warlock took "the easy way." Working on a contract that your boss sets the primary rules for and only gets you advancement based on that relationship isn't "easy." It's very direct and straightforward, but nothing to me says easy, particularly if the DM formalizes the contract terms and makes you roleplay them.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
No one gets power from their ability scores when it comes to spellcasting. Those abilities amplify and focus the powers. You can be a Wizard with a -5 in intelligence, and you still can cast spells, but your mental score that focuses your power isn't strong enough to be effective in most cases.
Ability Scores don't grant you power. Clerics get power from their devotion to their gods. Warlocks get it from a pact.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms