Ok well a) it sounds like you're being fed idiot mages who aren't adjusting to your counterspell range and vision and/or aren't counterspelling your counterspell and b) you've been playing it wrong this whole time.
Arcane Deflection is what procs the Deflecting Shroud's 7*3 damage. Not Counterspell.
What are you even talking about? I already told you that the suggestion above was that Arcane Deflection should trigger Power Surge and I said that was a bad idea... why are your knickers so twisted?
Yes, you can Counterspell a Counterspell. That’s like level 1 Wizard strategy. How does that change anything I said before?
Ummm, do you realise that you can't Counterspell a Counterspell if the initial spell is not a cantrip?
As per the rules says:
You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
So, if Wizard A cast Fireball and Wizard B cast counterspell, Wizard A cannot counterspell Wizard B simple because he casted Fireball, which is not a cantrip, even if he has its reaction to do so.
If a WW is already using it's Arcane Deflection, it wouldn't be able to use counterspell as they both require reactions.
Baring that, what @NordicNinja posted holds true for counterspelling a counterspell (as that rule describes spells cast as a bonus action, not reaction, which counterspell is) -- as long as you have the actions required to do it still available.
Ok well a) it sounds like you're being fed idiot mages who aren't adjusting to your counterspell range and vision and/or aren't counterspelling your counterspell and b) you've been playing it wrong this whole time.
Arcane Deflection is what procs the Deflecting Shroud's 7*3 damage. Not Counterspell.
What are you even talking about? I already told you that the suggestion above was that Arcane Deflection should trigger Power Surge and I said that was a bad idea... why are your knickers so twisted?
Yes, you can Counterspell a Counterspell. That’s like level 1 Wizard strategy. How does that change anything I said before?
Ummm, do you realise that you can't Counterspell a Counterspell if the initial spell is not a cantrip?
As per the rules says:
You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
So, if Wizard A cast Fireball and Wizard B cast counterspell, Wizard A cannot counterspell Wizard B simple because he casted Fireball, which is not a cantrip, even if he has its reaction to do so.
If a WW is already using it's Arcane Deflection, it wouldn't be able to use counterspell as they both require reactions.
Baring that, what @NordicNinja posted holds true for counterspelling a counterspell (as that rule describes spells cast as a bonus action, not reaction, which counterspell is) -- as long as you have the actions required to do it still available.
on the topic of reactions and counterspells, there really needs to be some class feature or racial trait or feat or whatever that grants you more reactions per turn, so we can upp the counter spell game further to the point where you could expend all your spell slots in a single chain of counterspells. whould that not just be an fun thing that would make fighting another mage just horrible?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
on the topic of reactions and counterspells, there really needs to be some class feature or racial trait or feat or whatever that grants you more reactions per turn, so we can upp the counter spell game further to the point where you could expend all your spell slots in a single chain of counterspells. whould that not just be an fun thing that would make fighting another mage just horrible?
Funny you should bring that up after I added Reaction Surge to my War Mage rework draft just last night. ;)
Still restricted to one per round, though! Because hell yeah that's super gross.
yes but if you made it into a feat instead you could like, give it to fighters and let them have a lot of fun with polearm master + sentinel + cavalier or battle master subclass to just creates an character arround the concept of "there is going to be a tax for that", or give them to the new UA barbarians and watch them roam arround the battle field, scaring the shit outa people as they leave people with no rest.
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I am playing a War Mage now. 1st time. He's at level 3. So far so good. My only problem/concern is that while it seems to be a sort of combination of the Evocation & Abjuration Schools, both of which get savant abilities that cut their time & gold to copy spells into their spellbooks, War Mage does not get Savant in either. This means War Mage does not get ANY time or gold discount on any spell book copying for any school despite being talented (should be savant) in not one, but two schools - evocation & abjuration. This makes WAR mage a very expensive character to run. Needing more gold & time for spells means my character is always running at a deficit as to how many spells he could have. Soon my fellow players may find me greedy. Can war mage get a break in time & gold to copy ANY spells please?
It fits the theme of a war mage, I think. Being more focused on combat, you're less versatile than other wizards out of combat due to having less spells.
If you know how to use it then you've made the most overpowered magic fighter in your party. Look up Shadow Blade and Booming Blade for starters, the AC is just a bonus compared to all the buffs and weapon spells you have. Also you're still one of the most powerful casters in the game.
If you know how to use it then you've made the most overpowered magic fighter in your party. Look up Shadow Blade and Booming Blade for starters, the AC is just a bonus compared to all the buffs and weapon spells you have. Also you're still one of the most powerful casters in the game.
Wait till you start using Tenser’s Transformation and realize you can use all of your War Wizard abilities while you do. Saves, AC, Power Surges... you’ll be absolutely wrecking in no time.
If you know how to use it then you've made the most overpowered magic fighter in your party. Look up Shadow Blade and Booming Blade for starters, the AC is just a bonus compared to all the buffs and weapon spells you have. Also you're still one of the most powerful casters in the game.
Wait till you start using Tenser’s Transformation and realize you can use all of your War Wizard abilities while you do. Saves, AC, Power Surges... you’ll be absolutely wrecking in no time.
i do not think making an melee attack that deals extra force damage due to tenser's transformation is the same as dealing damage with an spell like fireball in the eyes of this feature, yes it is damage that technically originates from a spell but it is sort of an "freeloader" ulike something like shadow blade, flaming sphere or dragon's breath where all damage dealt is from the spell and no other source, by this logic even the spell magic weapon would be able to deal extra force damage to a target, might be the way it works RAW just not exactly what they meant when they made the feature
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It works really well as a dip with a war domain cleric, especially a low-dex cleric.
I have a straight human war domain cleric in a game I am playing with a 6 Dexterity, 17 intelligence and 18 wisdom. War Mage is a perfect dip for her. Great spells (shield, absorb elements), great abilities (actually turns initiative from usually lose to +1), turns common dex saves from always fail to usually fail. Great role playing combo war cleric, war wizard ..... lets go to war, enough said!
I am playing a war magic wizard hobgoblin, so far it is very good! Add in some spells that affect weapons then have war caster, dual wielder, and blade master from the UA feats make for a pretty great war mage.
The war mage in my party is not impressed with it and wishes he had taken a different specialization. He doesn't suck, but in his opinion it's because the base mage is so strong.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If you build it right, and I mean right, and in the right campaign, it can be pretty fantastic, but it’s a specific build.
Arcane deflection means not needing to spend slots on Shield if you don’t want to. Tactical Wit makes sure that you go high in the initiative, especially with a Weapon of Warning. That lets you take advantage of spells that control the battlefield before many (if any) enemies get to go. And battlefield control is key in a highly tactical game. If you’re more TotM, maybe not so much.
Power Surge sets you up to get an extra benefit to the times you end up using Counterspell or Dispell Magic. Clearly that’s another controller ability nudge that lets you basically get a magical version of GWM/Sharp Shooter (+10 at level 20) without needing to declare it ahead of time or take a To Hit penalty as Scooby Snack for doing spellcaster control duity. It isn’t all the time, but when it pops it’s nice, and it even works on Cantrips. I nice little bonus from doing something you will do anyway, depending on the situation.
Durable Magic. ‘Nuff said.
Deflecting Shroud makes the Wizards worst fear, getting gang meleed, just that much less terrifying.
Pair this with a Mark of Warding Dwarf, or a Hobgoblin, and you have something to help with weapon and armor proficiencies and a solid boost to Con to offset the d6 Hit Die, and also augment Durable Magic. They each also have other benefits as well. (Lookin’ at you Saving Face. 👍)
Adding Warcaster is a good take, obviously. Tough, Mobile, and Aberrant Dragonmark also have their appeal.
If you can take UA, Telekinetic (Int), Tower of Iron Will, and Wild Talent (Int) all bring something to that party in different ways, Control, Defense, and Damage respectively. Although taking all of them is unlikely at best, and you need Wild Talent to take either of the others. I recommend Telekinetic over Tower, but that’s because I love Bonus Action options and plan it as a controller anyway.
So if you plan on making a controller anyway, War Mage is a contender. Especially if you already have a striker and won’t have a babysitter in the party to protect the squishies. If you want to make the striker instead, you will be disappointed.
I agree its actually the only thing that was changed at the table I currently play at. Essentially the GM stole a perk from the 3.5 War Mage class. Power Surge - now it allows me to add my INT bonus to damage when casting spells. Which still is kind of underpowered for the 6th level ability but far more useful. It actually feels pretty impactful when you cast cantrips and some of the lower damage spells.
I agree its actually the only thing that was changed at the table I currently play at. Essentially the GM stole a perk from the 3.5 War Mage class. Power Surge - now it allows me to add my INT bonus to damage when casting spells. Which still is kind of underpowered for the 6th level ability but far more useful. It actually feels pretty impactful when you cast cantrips and some of the lower damage spells.
Ive done this as well but I toke a lesson from the Cleric's and just added the INT damage bonus to cantrips. It feels less like its stepping on the Evocation wizard's toes. Also I've somewhat inverted the arcane deflection feature and give a +4 bonus to spell attack rolls and a +2 to the spell save DC the number of times equal to the casters INT modifier, resetting on a long rest. Both seemed to work fine and didn't feel like they broke anything or overpowered the subclass.
The class is absolutely overpowered if you build it right. If you put Plate Armor and a Shield on this build (Fighter or Cleric levels or Feats), you get 20 base AC, +2 for Durable... for 22 AC. Throw on Tenser’s Transformation and you’ll be doing 60-100 damage per round, have +2 to AC as needed and +4 to saves as needed. A specially built character with War Mage is the most powerful striker you can make without throwing in magical items.
If you want a link, I can provide.
But if you just want a caster, it’s not particularly better than any other.
Why would that not be what they meant when the feature was designed? Magic weapon sounds like a great way to funnel surges on a creature. You use one surge on your turn for bonus damage when you cast a spell, your ally hits with the weapon you cast magic weapon on for a surge on their turn.
why invent reasons for a misinterpreted and under used feature to not work?
It's A lot closer to abjuration that it is to evocation, as all of its abilities are defensive, but the last one has some damage. It might be better to just choose abjuration if you like this subclass.
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If a WW is already using it's Arcane Deflection, it wouldn't be able to use counterspell as they both require reactions.
Baring that, what @NordicNinja posted holds true for counterspelling a counterspell (as that rule describes spells cast as a bonus action, not reaction, which counterspell is) -- as long as you have the actions required to do it still available.
best bladesinger dip gotta be monk tho, since you become monk^2
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
on the topic of reactions and counterspells, there really needs to be some class feature or racial trait or feat or whatever that grants you more reactions per turn, so we can upp the counter spell game further to the point where you could expend all your spell slots in a single chain of counterspells. whould that not just be an fun thing that would make fighting another mage just horrible?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Funny you should bring that up after I added Reaction Surge to my War Mage rework draft just last night. ;)
Still restricted to one per round, though! Because hell yeah that's super gross.
yes but if you made it into a feat instead you could like, give it to fighters and let them have a lot of fun with polearm master + sentinel + cavalier or battle master subclass to just creates an character arround the concept of "there is going to be a tax for that", or give them to the new UA barbarians and watch them roam arround the battle field, scaring the shit outa people as they leave people with no rest.
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
I am playing a War Mage now. 1st time. He's at level 3. So far so good. My only problem/concern is that while it seems to be a sort of combination of the Evocation & Abjuration Schools, both of which get savant abilities that cut their time & gold to copy spells into their spellbooks, War Mage does not get Savant in either. This means War Mage does not get ANY time or gold discount on any spell book copying for any school despite being talented (should be savant) in not one, but two schools - evocation & abjuration. This makes WAR mage a very expensive character to run. Needing more gold & time for spells means my character is always running at a deficit as to how many spells he could have. Soon my fellow players may find me greedy. Can war mage get a break in time & gold to copy ANY spells please?
It fits the theme of a war mage, I think. Being more focused on combat, you're less versatile than other wizards out of combat due to having less spells.
If you know how to use it then you've made the most overpowered magic fighter in your party. Look up Shadow Blade and Booming Blade for starters, the AC is just a bonus compared to all the buffs and weapon spells you have. Also you're still one of the most powerful casters in the game.
Basic Chase
Wait till you start using Tenser’s Transformation and realize you can use all of your War Wizard abilities while you do. Saves, AC, Power Surges... you’ll be absolutely wrecking in no time.
i do not think making an melee attack that deals extra force damage due to tenser's transformation is the same as dealing damage with an spell like fireball in the eyes of this feature, yes it is damage that technically originates from a spell but it is sort of an "freeloader" ulike something like shadow blade, flaming sphere or dragon's breath where all damage dealt is from the spell and no other source, by this logic even the spell magic weapon would be able to deal extra force damage to a target, might be the way it works RAW just not exactly what they meant when they made the feature
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
It works really well as a dip with a war domain cleric, especially a low-dex cleric.
I have a straight human war domain cleric in a game I am playing with a 6 Dexterity, 17 intelligence and 18 wisdom. War Mage is a perfect dip for her. Great spells (shield, absorb elements), great abilities (actually turns initiative from usually lose to +1), turns common dex saves from always fail to usually fail. Great role playing combo war cleric, war wizard ..... lets go to war, enough said!
I am playing a war magic wizard hobgoblin, so far it is very good! Add in some spells that affect weapons then have war caster, dual wielder, and blade master from the UA feats make for a pretty great war mage.
The war mage in my party is not impressed with it and wishes he had taken a different specialization. He doesn't suck, but in his opinion it's because the base mage is so strong.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If you build it right, and I mean right, and in the right campaign, it can be pretty fantastic, but it’s a specific build.
Arcane deflection means not needing to spend slots on Shield if you don’t want to. Tactical Wit makes sure that you go high in the initiative, especially with a Weapon of Warning. That lets you take advantage of spells that control the battlefield before many (if any) enemies get to go. And battlefield control is key in a highly tactical game. If you’re more TotM, maybe not so much.
Power Surge sets you up to get an extra benefit to the times you end up using Counterspell or Dispell Magic. Clearly that’s another controller ability nudge that lets you basically get a magical version of GWM/Sharp Shooter (+10 at level 20) without needing to declare it ahead of time or take a To Hit penalty as Scooby Snack for doing spellcaster control duity. It isn’t all the time, but when it pops it’s nice, and it even works on Cantrips. I nice little bonus from doing something you will do anyway, depending on the situation.
Durable Magic. ‘Nuff said.
Deflecting Shroud makes the Wizards worst fear, getting gang meleed, just that much less terrifying.
Pair this with a Mark of Warding Dwarf, or a Hobgoblin, and you have something to help with weapon and armor proficiencies and a solid boost to Con to offset the d6 Hit Die, and also augment Durable Magic. They each also have other benefits as well. (Lookin’ at you Saving Face. 👍)
Adding Warcaster is a good take, obviously. Tough, Mobile, and Aberrant Dragonmark also have their appeal.
If you can take UA, Telekinetic (Int), Tower of Iron Will, and Wild Talent (Int) all bring something to that party in different ways, Control, Defense, and Damage respectively. Although taking all of them is unlikely at best, and you need Wild Talent to take either of the others. I recommend Telekinetic over Tower, but that’s because I love Bonus Action options and plan it as a controller anyway.
So if you plan on making a controller anyway, War Mage is a contender. Especially if you already have a striker and won’t have a babysitter in the party to protect the squishies. If you want to make the striker instead, you will be disappointed.
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I agree its actually the only thing that was changed at the table I currently play at. Essentially the GM stole a perk from the 3.5 War Mage class. Power Surge - now it allows me to add my INT bonus to damage when casting spells. Which still is kind of underpowered for the 6th level ability but far more useful. It actually feels pretty impactful when you cast cantrips and some of the lower damage spells.
Ive done this as well but I toke a lesson from the Cleric's and just added the INT damage bonus to cantrips. It feels less like its stepping on the Evocation wizard's toes. Also I've somewhat inverted the arcane deflection feature and give a +4 bonus to spell attack rolls and a +2 to the spell save DC the number of times equal to the casters INT modifier, resetting on a long rest. Both seemed to work fine and didn't feel like they broke anything or overpowered the subclass.
The class is absolutely overpowered if you build it right. If you put Plate Armor and a Shield on this build (Fighter or Cleric levels or Feats), you get 20 base AC, +2 for Durable... for 22 AC. Throw on Tenser’s Transformation and you’ll be doing 60-100 damage per round, have +2 to AC as needed and +4 to saves as needed. A specially built character with War Mage is the most powerful striker you can make without throwing in magical items.
If you want a link, I can provide.
But if you just want a caster, it’s not particularly better than any other.
I think mixing so soon an abjurer and a evoker with war Magic feat, it's too OP.
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Why would that not be what they meant when the feature was designed? Magic weapon sounds like a great way to funnel surges on a creature. You use one surge on your turn for bonus damage when you cast a spell, your ally hits with the weapon you cast magic weapon on for a surge on their turn.
why invent reasons for a misinterpreted and under used feature to not work?
It's A lot closer to abjuration that it is to evocation, as all of its abilities are defensive, but the last one has some damage. It might be better to just choose abjuration if you like this subclass.