While you all brought up some very good points, I have to agree with Fateless and stand by my original point. The class feature specifies "As if you were there" and the wording essentially denotes that all the implications of you being there yourself are plausible as well. If the feature intended for you to cast a spell through the mind so as to avoid counterspell, I believe it would have been worded more like Find Familiar, which states that your familiar delivers the spell as if it had cast the spell, thus the wording should be, on the class feature, something like "You cast the spell and it originates from your manifest mind's space" or something of that nature. Instead the class feature goes out of its way to be very specific and state that the spell is indeed cast as if you yourself were present there casting it. If we interpret it like that then that spell is cast as if there is indeed a creature within view 60 feet away. Otherwise the wording of the class feature doesn't make a lot of sense when there is already a precedent for this specific wording in other spells. It could've said "Casted from your manifested mind's space" as well, but instead it specifies that it is being cast as if you are in that space yourself.
I would ask you guys (or anyone else) to take a look at this sage advice tweet about the Trickery Cleric's "Invoke Duplicity" feature, which is very similar to casting through "manifest mind."
Description of Invoke Duplicity: "As an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you. For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses."
The Sage Advice Answer: "Invoke Duplicity doesn't protect a cleric from being counterspelled if the person casting counterspell can see the cleric/illusion and the cleric is within 60 feet of the caster."
The part pertinent to our discussion being "...and the cleric is within 60 feet of the caster [of counterspell]".
Personally, I would say that anyone can fufill the "seeing the caster" portion of counterspell when they can see the manifested mind as you cast through it; however, I would still say that if your physical body is not within range of the counterspell, it will not work-- based on the clear wording of this sage advice on a very similar feature.
Quick edit: Another Pertinent Sage Advice Where Jeremy specifies that "Counterspell targets a creature casting a spell, no matter the source of the spell (the creature, an item, etc.)" Here he clearly distinguishes between the creature casting (the scribes wizard) and the source of a spell (the manifested mind).
I agree with you…I think you’re spell could still be countered even if you were behind total cover…now if the mind is also behind total cover…totally fair game!
Bear in mind the reason you can't Counterspell the caster while the caster is behind total cover and casting through the Mind isn't intrinsically a targeting issue (or we'd indeed have to work out whether or not the caster is behind total cover while the Counterspell occurs), it's intrinsically an action economy issue. Counterspell can only be cast when you satisfy the requirements of its Reaction, and those requirements are not satisfied when a spell is cast through the Mind if the person attempting Counterspell can't see the caster. Seeing the Mind is insufficient.
That assumes opaque total cover, though - apparently when I originally answered you I wasn't aware of the 5E issues surrounding glass. I am aware of them now, so I will amend my original answer:
In order to cast Counterspell, you must see a creature within 60 feet of you cast a spell. This creature can be behind transparent total cover, such as glass, but it must be all of:
A creature,
casting a spell,
that is visible to the Counterspeller.
When you cast Counterspell, you may target any creature within range which is casting a spell. That range is base 60 feet, but anything modifying the spell's range modifies this. Note that this is distinct from the 60 foot check in step 1, and that your target need not be the target you saw in step 1. Furthermore, there is absolutely no requirement you be able to see your target.
All spells fail to penetrate total cover. This includes Counterspell.
If we're in step 2 and you're trying to Counterspell a caster behind total cover who is using Manifest Mind, your DM has to determine whether or not casting the spell "as if you were in the spectral mind's space" means the caster temporarily teleports into the Mind's space or not. Remember, Counterspell isn't special; either you can cast both Counterspell and Fireball at the caster during the casting, or neither.
Tying it all together, In addition to seeing the caster through glass, you could have a friend. Suppose Adam, Bob, and Carl are humans standing in the dark within 60 feet of each other; Bob is carrying a lit candle and has darkvision, but Adam and Carl are in total darkness. Carl casts Suggestion; Bob casts Counterspell in response (on Carl). Adam can now cast Counterspellbecause Bob is casting a spell, but can target Adam, because Counterspell doesn't require you to be able to see its target. That's how Counterspell works in general - none of this interacts with the Mind especially.
What interacts with the Mind especially are two separate questions:
Does casting through the Mind render the caster visible? There is no reading I can see of the ability where the answer is "yes".
Does casting through the Mind render the caster temporarily in the Mind's space for all rules purposes, including Counterspell, Fireball, Cloudkill, etc? You yourself are living proof that some people think the answer to this is yes, so ask your DM!
Crawford is pretty hit or miss at interpreting RAW.
Oh my bad, I thought his word was accepted as law among 5e players
I think he was for a bit. But he almost never explained the rulings he'd make so they started to feel a bit like him just firing from the hip.
Even this one isn't a explanation of RAW its him trying to split the difference. If you are effectively in the space so you can be counterspelled it wouldn't make a difference where your real body is. The idea that you are there for the sight requirement but not the distance one is not born out anywhere in the rules. Its just him winging a decision trying to hit the middle instead of making a stand. You are there, but not there why, because.
I'd say no you can't counter spell spells from it at all as you aren't actually there, so they aren't seeing you they are seeing a glowing whatever or a illusion of you for the trickster version, it isn't a creature and while they may be within 60 feet of you maybe not, but its irrelevant as the other 2 requirements aren't met. For me this would also knock out the misty step trick everyone loves as it can cast the spell wherever it wants but the actual you can only move 30 feet from its actual location, as you aren't actually in that spot, you are just casting a spell from that spot. You could still misty step to locations you can't see, as long as they were within 30 feet of your actual body and you were viewing it through your mind, so not 300 feet.
I can see DMs ruling other directions based on different readings of it or a balance call, but they should try to keep their logic consistent on how and why it works that way. This ability is written vaguely enough there will be tons of different calls made at different tables, not intended as house rules but them just doing their best to make a RAW call. For me I'd try to consistently make a ruling based on the idea that you are casting a spell from that space as the origin point but with the assumption you are not treated as being actually there. I'm sure I'd screw it up as there is a lot to this no matter how a person rules.
Crawford is pretty hit or miss at interpreting RAW.
Oh my bad, I thought his word was accepted as law among 5e players
I think he was for a bit. But he almost never explained the rulings he'd make so they started to feel a bit like him just firing from the hip.
it wasn't just him not explaining rulings. it was more the fact that he gave contradictory rulings. Sometimes to the same question. Sometimes to two different specific things that actually work the same way that seemed to favor one class but not another or things like that. And a few times he even admitted how he'd rule something didn't fit the rules but he thought they were more fun.
Crawford is pretty hit or miss at interpreting RAW.
Oh my bad, I thought his word was accepted as law among 5e players
I think he was for a bit. But he almost never explained the rulings he'd make so they started to feel a bit like him just firing from the hip.
it wasn't just him not explaining rulings. it was more the fact that he gave contradictory rulings. Sometimes to the same question. Sometimes to two different specific things that actually work the same way that seemed to favor one class but not another or things like that. And a few times he even admitted how he'd rule something didn't fit the rules but he thought they were more fun.
True, but I couldn't pull up examples from memory so I went for a more vague reason. I remember it happening, but over which rulings etc I don't recall.
Though I'm not sure it matters for a table. RAW is nifty for online discussions and official living campaigns but what is important for most people is what works best at their table. Make the best call you can for your table whether that fits RAW or not, try to be consistent so your players don't think you are just trying to screw them.
I'm going to side-step the rules debates and look at a couple of tactical uses of this ability. One of the key things is that it puts your spellcasting a long way from the spellcaster, so we don't need to worry about blowback nearly as much.
A couple of classic blowback spells are Conjure Greater Demon and Conjure Elemental. In both cases there is a risk of losing control and it attacking everything in sight including ourself. But if the wizard is 300' away at the time this is far less of an issue and really we might even not care about maintaining concentration. Why not just drop concentration to cast something else and let them run rampage to soften up something which the party can then walk in to mop up far more easily.
We can use others of our 3 spells per day through the manifest mind to give backup to whatever we just let loose in there and as a Scribes Wizard we can make sure that whatever we throw our own summoned creature is immune to it. Which I think is neat.
Another thing which works well with this is anything that does serious ongoing damage. Its very hard to break the concentration of a wizard who is 300' away and hiding so you can more or less force a set of enemies to abandon a strong defensive position with a spell like Sickening Radiance - very very few things in the game want to sit still for 10 minutes of that spell especially when the casting wizard has switched the damage type to one they are not immune to. In this case its not so much about instant-killing things its more about a special kind of battlefield control which is area denial, pick the part of the battlefield they really want to be and just make it uninhabitable for them.
The last thing I want to point out is that manifest mind is easier to replace than level 3 spell slots. For control wizards its actually quite nice to be able to use the implied threat of it to tease out hostile Dispel Magic uses and leave the enemy open to the real controlling spells without having their Dispel Magic to deal with it.
In general I think its an awesome ability when you are on the attack for both scouting and for pre-emptive attacks that are hard to defend against.
I know I am pretty late to this discussion, but I wanted to bring up that although the misty step/manifest mind combo turns misty step into a 330 foot range spell, it also turns dimension door into a 800 foot spell. I bring this up because someone said something about how this combo would essentially nerf dimension door, but it just makes everythings range much greater. And this would probably only apply once as moving the spectral mind 300 feet away would take longer than just running and dashing.
To go to a different aspect of this ability, can the manifest mind speak to anyone but the OoS wizard?
I have a PC who would like to have it interact with the party and be a "voice of morality/reason" to the rogue and annoy the paladin. I think it is just roleplay fun but I want to be sure it is grounded in some rule aspect if it should turn into some other use.
I know I am pretty late to this discussion, but I wanted to bring up that although the misty step/manifest mind combo turns misty step into a 330 foot range spell, it also turns dimension door into a 800 foot spell. I bring this up because someone said something about how this combo would essentially nerf dimension door, but it just makes everythings range much greater. And this would probably only apply once as moving the spectral mind 300 feet away would take longer than just running and dashing.
More distance is better, but it is rare in a game where the difference between 500 and 800 matters but frequently the difference between 30 and 330 does. I wouldn't consider it a big nerf to DD if people allowed this though as DD is frequently used as an escape hatch, and if escaping you usually don't have 10 rounds for your manifest mind to fly away to give you the extra distance. It nerfs it a bit when you are on the offensive though its less of a surprise move since the MM is visible and you can still only bring yourself.
Personally I do not buy into the wording of the abilities to allow it in the first place but so be it.
I think you can’t Misty Step an effective 330 feet with Manifest Mind. But I would think you *could* Misty Step out of the Darkness / Fog Cloud / Purple Worm’s Stomach / other side of Wall of X that your opponent put you in, as long as the Manifest Mind can see an unoccupied spot within 30 feet of you where you want to be. I’ve had plenty of fights in Darkness where this would’ve been really valuable.
That's my reading as well, it would give you vision to spots you normally can't see bypassing the sight requirement in the spell but it would not increase its teleport range.
Bit late to this topic, but per counterspell, the "casting" of the spell being thwarted requires a creature target. The effect location of the spell outcome is entirely irrelevant, as it targets a creature who is actively casting to interrupt their casting.
"You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell."
If you think about it as a "cinematic" experience, the Wizard herself would be doing the somatic, verbal, and material components (finger waggling, spell chanting) physically at her location, while the spell effect that triggers after a successful cast happens immediately at the Manifest Mind's location instead of hers "as if she had cast from that location." So if the counterspell user does not see her casting within 60ft range, they have no valid creature to target.
This is also why counterspell does not work on spell that are cast from spell scrolls from a lore perspective and RAW. The "creature" is using an item, not casting the spell. The scroll is casting a spell, but it is an object and not a creature, and thus not a valid target for counterspell.
If a creature using counterspell is within 60ft and can see the actual Wizard casting her spell, it can be countered even if cast through Manifest Mind that is far away.
If your DM simply does not "like" the RAW, they can always veto it with DM authority. But any other interpretation of the interaction of counterspell and Manifest Mind is almost certainly wrong according to RAW.
Alternatively, the "casting range" of misty step specifies "Self" while the effect after a successful cast states:
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see.
The location of "Self" is strictly relative to the location when cast.
"you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses."
The creature casting a spell is the Wizard, *not* the Manifest Mind. As such, "a creature within 60ft casting a spell that you can see" *does* apply if the counterspell user is within 60ft and can see the Wizard. A Wizard is a creature, who is casting a spell. Regardless of the location of the spell "being cast at" the Wizard is still physically at a location and is "casting," which is the only requirement that counterspell specifically cares about.
Alternatively, for misty step, the "as If you were in the space of the spectral mind" applies to the range of Self cast, and as such is located directly at the Manifest Mind's location, and the "within 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see" is thus from that location as well. Your sight is the sight of the Manifest Mind's sight, as you share it's senses. It also specifically states instead of your own, meaning if cast by the location of the Manifest Mind and beyond 30ft from your original location, RAW you could not even use your original location as the 30ft teleport location.
"While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)."
The issue people are misunderstanding is distinguishing between the specific problem of why counterspell does or doesn't work (targeting requirement) and why mist step does work (Self range):
counterspell is thwarted not by range issues, but by needing a valid "creature" to target (and that creature being within 60ft LOS).
counterspell however will work if the casting creature is within range, regardless of "where" their casting is taking place, as they are still "a creature casting a spell within 60ft line of sight."
misty step works because the target range is Self, and the spell effect triggers from the point at which it is successfully cast, and that you have "sight" of the location within 30ft of the cast location (which is provided by the Manifest Mind.)
One thing that came up in a recent campaign involving the evil scribes Wizard NPC villain I placed for the party. The party's infiltration specialist was a Gloom Stalker Ranger who managed to infiltrate the tower. He came into range of the manifested mind but was in darkness outside of the effects 10' radius of dim light. As he snuck by the Scribes Wizard blasted him and the player was quite upset and argued that his Umbral Sight effect defeated the Manifest Mind dark vision ability. I pointed out to the player that Umbral Sight states that CREATURES that relay on dark vision cannot see him, the Manifest Mind effect is an OBJECT.
Personally I side with your player here. Yes, RAW you are right, but I would handle it a bit different.
Obviously the player wasn't enjoying it much. Probably felt screwed over by the rules a bit. And such a little detail I am sure they did not realise, but the character would know. Sometimes as a DM we have to remind the players about things the characters would know, which includes these kind of rules.
I think in this specific case either let them have their ability or remind them about the ability's limitation before they are found.
I'm not even sure that's RAW, yeah it as an object would RAW see you but when you are casting a spell from it you are a creature using its senses, so you are a creature using dark vision. RAW it very well could be when it telepathically shares things with you, you'd see the ranger but when you hopped in to cast the spell the ranger would be invisible.
Basically this "The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears" and this" you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses" are two different things. 1, is it telepathically saying hey I saw this, the 2nd is you taking over its senses for your own use at which point it can be argued its a creature using darkvision.
It is a rules call, as like almost everything in this sub class its not clear how it works. I personally would have gone differently as the whole its a object thing just feels like unintended cheese as I doubt anything like a object with darkvision was thought of when writing up the rangers abilities.
I hate myself for noticing this, but I've realized that when casting Misty Step, I don't think it will work as desired, RAW. I think we're conflating the wizard-as-caster with wizard-as-target. That is, you can *cast* misty step as if you-the-caster are in the manifest mind's space. But I think the effect of the feature ends as soon as the casting action is completed, and then the *result* is that the wizard-as-target moves 30' from where they physically are. Close reading of Misty Step shows it does not use language like "within range", like it would for spells that target another creature / object. You can see from the manifest mind as far as it can see, designate a space even further than 30' from the manifest mind just fine, target yourself. The actual spell effect on the target is not modified by the feature, after it is cast, so you only move to the designated space, presuming it is up to 30' away.
Still highly useful for stepping into a space you don't have a direct line of sight on otherwise. Can even let the manifest mind travel through an opening just big enough for a small object, in order to bypass an obstacle. (Edit: Have just concluded Santa Claus is a Scribes Wizard)
If I'm missing a clause or if there is a good counter example (ie, applying this logic to a different scenario shows it to be wrong) please let me know. I absolutely want to use this as a wizard, but I think as a DM I'd have to rule against it for now.
I agree the misty step would only be 30', others see it differently. The rules are vague enough it will be different table to table and not from a conscious choice to make a house rule.
If a GM rules that the spells from Manifest Mind can be counterspelled, then I think they should rule that Misty Step and Witch Bolt does work for the same reason.
And if they rule that MistyStep/Witch Bolt won't work, then they should rule that Counterspell doesn't work on the Mind's spells for the same reason.
Either way, it's consistent, and the Player gets their fun exploit (which can only be used prof/day anyways)
I would ask you guys (or anyone else) to take a look at this sage advice tweet about the Trickery Cleric's "Invoke Duplicity" feature, which is very similar to casting through "manifest mind."
Description of Invoke Duplicity: "As an action, you create a perfect illusion of yourself that lasts for 1 minute, or until you lose your concentration (as if you were concentrating on a spell). The illusion appears in an unoccupied space that you can see within 30 feet of you. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the illusion up to 30 feet to a space you can see, but it must remain within 120 feet of you. For the duration, you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion’s space, but you must use your own senses."
The Sage Advice Answer: "Invoke Duplicity doesn't protect a cleric from being counterspelled if the person casting counterspell can see the cleric/illusion and the cleric is within 60 feet of the caster."
The part pertinent to our discussion being "...and the cleric is within 60 feet of the caster [of counterspell]".
Personally, I would say that anyone can fufill the "seeing the caster" portion of counterspell when they can see the manifested mind as you cast through it; however, I would still say that if your physical body is not within range of the counterspell, it will not work-- based on the clear wording of this sage advice on a very similar feature.
Quick edit: Another Pertinent Sage Advice Where Jeremy specifies that "Counterspell targets a creature casting a spell, no matter the source of the spell (the creature, an item, etc.)" Here he clearly distinguishes between the creature casting (the scribes wizard) and the source of a spell (the manifested mind).
Crawford is pretty hit or miss at interpreting RAW.
Bear in mind the reason you can't Counterspell the caster while the caster is behind total cover and casting through the Mind isn't intrinsically a targeting issue (or we'd indeed have to work out whether or not the caster is behind total cover while the Counterspell occurs), it's intrinsically an action economy issue. Counterspell can only be cast when you satisfy the requirements of its Reaction, and those requirements are not satisfied when a spell is cast through the Mind if the person attempting Counterspell can't see the caster. Seeing the Mind is insufficient.
That assumes opaque total cover, though - apparently when I originally answered you I wasn't aware of the 5E issues surrounding glass. I am aware of them now, so I will amend my original answer:
Tying it all together, In addition to seeing the caster through glass, you could have a friend. Suppose Adam, Bob, and Carl are humans standing in the dark within 60 feet of each other; Bob is carrying a lit candle and has darkvision, but Adam and Carl are in total darkness. Carl casts Suggestion; Bob casts Counterspell in response (on Carl). Adam can now cast Counterspell because Bob is casting a spell, but can target Adam, because Counterspell doesn't require you to be able to see its target. That's how Counterspell works in general - none of this interacts with the Mind especially.
What interacts with the Mind especially are two separate questions:
Oh my bad, I thought his word was accepted as law among 5e players
I think he was for a bit. But he almost never explained the rulings he'd make so they started to feel a bit like him just firing from the hip.
Even this one isn't a explanation of RAW its him trying to split the difference. If you are effectively in the space so you can be counterspelled it wouldn't make a difference where your real body is. The idea that you are there for the sight requirement but not the distance one is not born out anywhere in the rules. Its just him winging a decision trying to hit the middle instead of making a stand. You are there, but not there why, because.
I'd say no you can't counter spell spells from it at all as you aren't actually there, so they aren't seeing you they are seeing a glowing whatever or a illusion of you for the trickster version, it isn't a creature and while they may be within 60 feet of you maybe not, but its irrelevant as the other 2 requirements aren't met. For me this would also knock out the misty step trick everyone loves as it can cast the spell wherever it wants but the actual you can only move 30 feet from its actual location, as you aren't actually in that spot, you are just casting a spell from that spot. You could still misty step to locations you can't see, as long as they were within 30 feet of your actual body and you were viewing it through your mind, so not 300 feet.
I can see DMs ruling other directions based on different readings of it or a balance call, but they should try to keep their logic consistent on how and why it works that way. This ability is written vaguely enough there will be tons of different calls made at different tables, not intended as house rules but them just doing their best to make a RAW call. For me I'd try to consistently make a ruling based on the idea that you are casting a spell from that space as the origin point but with the assumption you are not treated as being actually there. I'm sure I'd screw it up as there is a lot to this no matter how a person rules.
it wasn't just him not explaining rulings. it was more the fact that he gave contradictory rulings. Sometimes to the same question. Sometimes to two different specific things that actually work the same way that seemed to favor one class but not another or things like that. And a few times he even admitted how he'd rule something didn't fit the rules but he thought they were more fun.
True, but I couldn't pull up examples from memory so I went for a more vague reason. I remember it happening, but over which rulings etc I don't recall.
Though I'm not sure it matters for a table. RAW is nifty for online discussions and official living campaigns but what is important for most people is what works best at their table. Make the best call you can for your table whether that fits RAW or not, try to be consistent so your players don't think you are just trying to screw them.
I'm going to side-step the rules debates and look at a couple of tactical uses of this ability. One of the key things is that it puts your spellcasting a long way from the spellcaster, so we don't need to worry about blowback nearly as much.
A couple of classic blowback spells are Conjure Greater Demon and Conjure Elemental. In both cases there is a risk of losing control and it attacking everything in sight including ourself. But if the wizard is 300' away at the time this is far less of an issue and really we might even not care about maintaining concentration. Why not just drop concentration to cast something else and let them run rampage to soften up something which the party can then walk in to mop up far more easily.
We can use others of our 3 spells per day through the manifest mind to give backup to whatever we just let loose in there and as a Scribes Wizard we can make sure that whatever we throw our own summoned creature is immune to it. Which I think is neat.
Another thing which works well with this is anything that does serious ongoing damage. Its very hard to break the concentration of a wizard who is 300' away and hiding so you can more or less force a set of enemies to abandon a strong defensive position with a spell like Sickening Radiance - very very few things in the game want to sit still for 10 minutes of that spell especially when the casting wizard has switched the damage type to one they are not immune to. In this case its not so much about instant-killing things its more about a special kind of battlefield control which is area denial, pick the part of the battlefield they really want to be and just make it uninhabitable for them.
The last thing I want to point out is that manifest mind is easier to replace than level 3 spell slots. For control wizards its actually quite nice to be able to use the implied threat of it to tease out hostile Dispel Magic uses and leave the enemy open to the real controlling spells without having their Dispel Magic to deal with it.
In general I think its an awesome ability when you are on the attack for both scouting and for pre-emptive attacks that are hard to defend against.
I know I am pretty late to this discussion, but I wanted to bring up that although the misty step/manifest mind combo turns misty step into a 330 foot range spell, it also turns dimension door into a 800 foot spell. I bring this up because someone said something about how this combo would essentially nerf dimension door, but it just makes everythings range much greater. And this would probably only apply once as moving the spectral mind 300 feet away would take longer than just running and dashing.
To go to a different aspect of this ability, can the manifest mind speak to anyone but the OoS wizard?
I have a PC who would like to have it interact with the party and be a "voice of morality/reason" to the rogue and annoy the paladin. I think it is just roleplay fun but I want to be sure it is grounded in some rule aspect if it should turn into some other use.
Thoughts?
More distance is better, but it is rare in a game where the difference between 500 and 800 matters but frequently the difference between 30 and 330 does. I wouldn't consider it a big nerf to DD if people allowed this though as DD is frequently used as an escape hatch, and if escaping you usually don't have 10 rounds for your manifest mind to fly away to give you the extra distance. It nerfs it a bit when you are on the offensive though its less of a surprise move since the MM is visible and you can still only bring yourself.
Personally I do not buy into the wording of the abilities to allow it in the first place but so be it.
I think you can’t Misty Step an effective 330 feet with Manifest Mind. But I would think you *could* Misty Step out of the Darkness / Fog Cloud / Purple Worm’s Stomach / other side of Wall of X that your opponent put you in, as long as the Manifest Mind can see an unoccupied spot within 30 feet of you where you want to be. I’ve had plenty of fights in Darkness where this would’ve been really valuable.
That's my reading as well, it would give you vision to spots you normally can't see bypassing the sight requirement in the spell but it would not increase its teleport range.
Bit late to this topic, but per counterspell, the "casting" of the spell being thwarted requires a creature target. The effect location of the spell outcome is entirely irrelevant, as it targets a creature who is actively casting to interrupt their casting.
If you think about it as a "cinematic" experience, the Wizard herself would be doing the somatic, verbal, and material components (finger waggling, spell chanting) physically at her location, while the spell effect that triggers after a successful cast happens immediately at the Manifest Mind's location instead of hers "as if she had cast from that location." So if the counterspell user does not see her casting within 60ft range, they have no valid creature to target.
This is also why counterspell does not work on spell that are cast from spell scrolls from a lore perspective and RAW. The "creature" is using an item, not casting the spell. The scroll is casting a spell, but it is an object and not a creature, and thus not a valid target for counterspell.
If a creature using counterspell is within 60ft and can see the actual Wizard casting her spell, it can be countered even if cast through Manifest Mind that is far away.
If your DM simply does not "like" the RAW, they can always veto it with DM authority. But any other interpretation of the interaction of counterspell and Manifest Mind is almost certainly wrong according to RAW.
Alternatively, the "casting range" of misty step specifies "Self" while the effect after a successful cast states:
Briefly surrounded by silvery mist, you teleport up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see.
The location of "Self" is strictly relative to the location when cast.
The creature casting a spell is the Wizard, *not* the Manifest Mind. As such, "a creature within 60ft casting a spell that you can see" *does* apply if the counterspell user is within 60ft and can see the Wizard. A Wizard is a creature, who is casting a spell. Regardless of the location of the spell "being cast at" the Wizard is still physically at a location and is "casting," which is the only requirement that counterspell specifically cares about.
Alternatively, for misty step, the "as If you were in the space of the spectral mind" applies to the range of Self cast, and as such is located directly at the Manifest Mind's location, and the "within 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you can see" is thus from that location as well. Your sight is the sight of the Manifest Mind's sight, as you share it's senses. It also specifically states instead of your own, meaning if cast by the location of the Manifest Mind and beyond 30ft from your original location, RAW you could not even use your original location as the 30ft teleport location.
The issue people are misunderstanding is distinguishing between the specific problem of why counterspell does or doesn't work (targeting requirement) and why mist step does work (Self range):
One thing that came up in a recent campaign involving the evil scribes Wizard NPC villain I placed for the party. The party's infiltration specialist was a Gloom Stalker Ranger who managed to infiltrate the tower. He came into range of the manifested mind but was in darkness outside of the effects 10' radius of dim light. As he snuck by the Scribes Wizard blasted him and the player was quite upset and argued that his Umbral Sight effect defeated the Manifest Mind dark vision ability. I pointed out to the player that Umbral Sight states that CREATURES that relay on dark vision cannot see him, the Manifest Mind effect is an OBJECT.
Thoughts on this ruling?
Personally I side with your player here. Yes, RAW you are right, but I would handle it a bit different.
Obviously the player wasn't enjoying it much. Probably felt screwed over by the rules a bit. And such a little detail I am sure they did not realise, but the character would know. Sometimes as a DM we have to remind the players about things the characters would know, which includes these kind of rules.
I think in this specific case either let them have their ability or remind them about the ability's limitation before they are found.
I'm not even sure that's RAW, yeah it as an object would RAW see you but when you are casting a spell from it you are a creature using its senses, so you are a creature using dark vision. RAW it very well could be when it telepathically shares things with you, you'd see the ranger but when you hopped in to cast the spell the ranger would be invisible.
Basically this "The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears" and this" you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses" are two different things. 1, is it telepathically saying hey I saw this, the 2nd is you taking over its senses for your own use at which point it can be argued its a creature using darkvision.
It is a rules call, as like almost everything in this sub class its not clear how it works. I personally would have gone differently as the whole its a object thing just feels like unintended cheese as I doubt anything like a object with darkvision was thought of when writing up the rangers abilities.
I hate myself for noticing this, but I've realized that when casting Misty Step, I don't think it will work as desired, RAW. I think we're conflating the wizard-as-caster with wizard-as-target. That is, you can *cast* misty step as if you-the-caster are in the manifest mind's space. But I think the effect of the feature ends as soon as the casting action is completed, and then the *result* is that the wizard-as-target moves 30' from where they physically are. Close reading of Misty Step shows it does not use language like "within range", like it would for spells that target another creature / object. You can see from the manifest mind as far as it can see, designate a space even further than 30' from the manifest mind just fine, target yourself. The actual spell effect on the target is not modified by the feature, after it is cast, so you only move to the designated space, presuming it is up to 30' away.
Still highly useful for stepping into a space you don't have a direct line of sight on otherwise. Can even let the manifest mind travel through an opening just big enough for a small object, in order to bypass an obstacle. (Edit: Have just concluded Santa Claus is a Scribes Wizard)
If I'm missing a clause or if there is a good counter example (ie, applying this logic to a different scenario shows it to be wrong) please let me know. I absolutely want to use this as a wizard, but I think as a DM I'd have to rule against it for now.
I agree the misty step would only be 30', others see it differently. The rules are vague enough it will be different table to table and not from a conscious choice to make a house rule.
If a GM rules that the spells from Manifest Mind can be counterspelled, then I think they should rule that Misty Step and Witch Bolt does work for the same reason.
And if they rule that MistyStep/Witch Bolt won't work, then they should rule that Counterspell doesn't work on the Mind's spells for the same reason.
Either way, it's consistent, and the Player gets their fun exploit (which can only be used prof/day anyways)