In my mind, the biggest problem with VTTs is that they take away from imagination. If I can’t play theater of the mind, I’d rather not play. If they made a multi person video chat with a “virtual table top” that was literally just a table with character sheets and dice that the players could all share as we watched live video of each other, with good sound quality and DM controls.... I would be way more interested in that.
In many ways, we thought the game was stabilizing, that we weren't going to be seeing too many new types of rules from WotC.
I thought y'all were big D&D fans? What, over the course of all of TSR's and WotC's history, would have led you to believe that they wouldn't have done exactly as they have done, since the beginnings of D&D, across every edition? Seriously, that's a really weird take to think that they weren't going to release new types of rules. If anything, the time when you're saying DDB thought they wouldn't be releasing new rules was exactly the time when it was expected of them, given over four decades of precedence...
There's a difference between being a mega-fan knowing the full history of the game and being told something by the makers of the game. It's not weird at all, in my mind, to take something at face value in those discussions.
As a fan, however, I am in favor of new rules and experimentation, so it hasn't kept me up at night, just simply that we had to adapt to the new direction.
In fact, the primary reason that we haven't been able to release as much as quickly over the last year is because of this work. I haven't talked about it much, because most fans out there don't find the "backend" behind the scenes work exciting. I see here in this thread we could have talked about it more openly to likely prevent some misconceptions and frustration for part of the community, and that's noted.
As long as it's not just telling us it's 'In progress' every week on the dev update. It's like, we know it's in progress but telling us it's in progress tells us nothing about the progress it's in.
This is a trap.
As I said above, most fans don't care about (or understand) backend development work because they're not engineers.
If I say nothing about what we're working on, the perception is we aren't "doing anything." If I say "this work is in progress," but then don't provide an update each week (I don't mention it because there's no "news" about it that is significant to the public), then I have tons of folks ask me "what about [X], you didn't mention it?" If I say "It's in progress - we updated the render library from Technobabble to Devspeak because the load on the infrastructure meant less parsecs to Kessel" (I'm clearly not an engineer), that is also a "meaningless" update for most and would not resonate.
I've heard from a few people a request to occasionally pull a developer into the dev update to talk a bit more in-depth about our tech, and it is certainly something we could do. But, in general, it is not something that would strike a chord with most fans weekly.
Thank you so much for your attention to this thread and providing your time and answers. It shows you do care about the community you have on here, which is great to know for those of us who have invested a lot of time (and money) into this site.
Can you advise more about what changes you are making for the framework to the character sheet, and homebrewing/customising? I'm a bit of a codehead myself and realise that changed your backend system from what you had into something more variable and flexible is a huge undertaking. It's actually great to know you've been working on this already for 9-10 months, as I was expecting this to end up being a later this year/early next. The fact you're beginning to roll stuff out already is fantastic.
What I'm wondering is what kind of changes have been made? Have you progressed from rigid set data to something variable? Will homebrewing allow the use of variables rather than using modifiers with only the presets you've made? Like if I wanted an item that called a specific skill bonus, or create an AC of 10 + Strength + Int or something? Or to create custom actions with finesse property?
People rail on Roll20 but you can create absolutely anything in homebrew and have it autocalculate because everything is a workable variable you can call, change and do what you need. Now, the interface may suck a bit and you cannot save anything between multiple characters, but it really is the approach you need to take - because this would solve all your hangups. Everything is a variable/entity you can do anything with, you're no longer restricted by preset modifiers, so making invocations, or whole classes can now be implemented and much easier.
Are you doing something like that ? If not what changes to the framework are made and how are they expected to resolve these problems?
And if we do have your attention: with the problem with publishing restrictions be fixed? Firstly if we don't have features "at the right levels" we cannot share things - which is a frustrating restriction in and of itself - but for druids your restrictions require a level 3 feature which is not official and so, to meet your restrictions we have to go against the books, which is even more frustrating and counterintuitive. This has been addressed many times (twice by me) but mods seem to barely respond, their replies are inconsistent and leaves us guessing. An official "we're working on it" response would be nice, maybe even "should be fixed later this year" or something.
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Problem 2, and this is also related to your comment about the necessary monetary investment -- to maximize their monetization, they try to be "game system agnostic." This means more people can use them, not just, say, someone playing Pathfinder 2e or DnD 5e. But, it also means the can't build rule-specific systems, which is why so much of the UI is left open-ended and undefined. The one, and only, advantage DDB has is that it is a single system, so they can hardcode D&D into it without worrying about that. But everyone else is trying to be more open-ended and this is why the UI is messy, and why you have to do so much work on your end with these systems (or pay through the nose to use the hard work other people already did for you).
This was certainly true when the current-gen VTTs were created, but D&D has grown so much in the last five years that it is definitely economically feasible for a VTT to be focused on that one system.
This was certainly true when the current-gen VTTs were created, but D&D has grown so much in the last five years that it is definitely economically feasible for a VTT to be focused on that one system.
Sure but it's even better economically if you can do that one system AND everything else.Their logic surely is, if we can get 10,000 subs from D&D, we can get 10,000 + X from allowing other systems besides D&D.
And, although it may be viable now, it wasn't viable before... and that's when these VTTs were developed, as you say. They built them to be flexible, but that means a lot of tweaking to get any one system to work in it, on the part of individual DMs and players.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This was certainly true when the current-gen VTTs were created, but D&D has grown so much in the last five years that it is definitely economically feasible for a VTT to be focused on that one system.
Sure but it's even better economically if you can do that one system AND everything else.Their logic surely is, if we can get 10,000 subs from D&D, we can get 10,000 + X from allowing other systems besides D&D.
And, although it may be viable now, it wasn't viable before... and that's when these VTTs were developed, as you say. They built them to be flexible, but that means a lot of tweaking to get any one system to work in it, on the part of individual DMs and players.
As someone who has yet to invest heavily (in time or monetarily) in any of the existing VTTs out there because none of them are particular great OR cost-effective (in a single package) that I'm waiting quite impatiently for what D&D Beyond brings to market. I'm hoping that by focusing on one system and doing it to the best possible level it will actually be worth it when done and, hey, I already pay for D&D Beyond, have all my source books and characters here, etc., so convenience is also a thing.
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Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
If you need a VTT, even if none are perfect, I certainly would not wait for DDB. At the pace they are doing things, it'll probably be at least a year, and probably several years, before they have a viable one that can compete functionally with things like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.
Astral is free for the full pro version until end of April. You might want to try it and see if it fits your needs while free, just in case you need something to tide you over until DDB's is ready. At least you will see what the full-featured thing is like before you pay them anything -- which almost no VTT that I've looked into actually gives you. The rest of them (and normally Astral) give you a stripped-down version and then you have to pay for premium, but the stripped down version is not really sufficient to see if you'd like the fully featured version.
Not trying to be a shill for Astral or anything... just pointing out that it is free/no-risk full pro trial this month and I like free stuff.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If you need a VTT, even if none are perfect, I certainly would not wait for DDB. At the pace they are doing things, it'll probably be at least a year, and probably several years, before they have a viable one that can compete functionally with things like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.
Astral is free for the full pro version until end of April. You might want to try it and see if it fits your needs while free, just in case you need something to tide you over until DDB's is ready. At least you will see what the full-featured thing is like before you pay them anything -- which almost no VTT that I've looked into actually gives you. The rest of them (and normally Astral) give you a stripped-down version and then you have to pay for premium, but the stripped down version is not really sufficient to see if you'd like the fully featured version.
Not trying to be a shill for Astral or anything... just pointing out that it is free/no-risk full pro trial this month and I like free stuff.
If not, Roll20 and probably others will allow you to import images. I took a handful of my miniatures and took pictures of them. Now my players are looking at the same miniature on Roll20 as they were in real life. I put minimal effort into making the Roll20 presentable and fill in the gaps that exist from DnDBeyond. You may need to add a few extra notes for reference and it certainly works better if your computer can project to two monitors or you've got two computers (or are willing to use your phone for some of the resources), but this strategy should allow most people to play without sinking funds into two systems. If your strategy is to play that way long term, then the increased investment might be merited, but at that juncture, I'd ask your players to pitch in funds to help if they haven't yet.
There's a difference between being a mega-fan knowing the full history of the game and being told something by the makers of the game. It's not weird at all, in my mind, to take something at face value in those discussions.
Well, there's also a difference between saying, 'we didn't think' and 'the game designers told us'. Even then, I mean, come on... there was no way in the Abyss they weren't going to release new rules, it's like, hard-baked into the entire DNA of D&D.
This is a trap.
As I said above, most fans don't care about (or understand) backend development work because they're not engineers.
I think that's presumptive and a little condescending. Sure, we might not understand the nitty-gritty, technobabble but there's a middle-ground between 'give an engineering lecture' and 'say nothing but 'in progress''. A for instance would be the stealth alpha rollout for this 9 month long character sheet general modifiers fix. First I heard about it was this thread. A simple, "And we're continuing to work behind the scenes on this hoohar thingy-ma-bob and now we're at the point where we're live testing with some select accounts. Watch out for an 'alpha' tag on your character sheets!" There's a big difference between that and a "We're in progress," message for nine months of dev updates.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
Nah, he's right, 29. Most people are going to tune out that sort of talk, and there's not really many ways to say "Yep, that thing we said we'd be working on for most of the year? we're still working on it. Going good but it ain't ready yet" wears on the nerves pretty quick. Prime example is Class Variant Features. People got sick of hearing it and there was no reportable change so Adam stopped talking about it for a few weeks. People then got pissed he hadn't mentioned it and thought it had been dropped.
There's not really any good way to say "yeah, this is gonna take forever, but we gotta do it and it'll slow other stuff down, so...buckle up." People hate hearing that, they lose interest quickly. Heh, apparently I had pretty perfect timing when I posted these concerns, so hurray luck? Either way, we know now, so everything's cool.
I have to disagree slightly. I for one would rather hear “Still working on it” than nothing. That is at least an acknowledgement that it is still ongoing and not abandoned. One could always say “skip to the end of the video for the technobabble.” Then the people who won’t understand or don’t care can skip it, the ones that will can watch it, and sooner or later the people who understood the technobabble can explain it to the ones that don’t but still care. This is a comunity after all.
I have to disagree slightly. I for one would rather hear “Still working on it” than nothing. That is at least an acknowledgement that it is still ongoing and not abandoned. One could always say “skip to the end of the video for the technobabble.” Then the people who won’t understand or don’t care can skip it, the ones that will can watch it, and sooner or later the people who understood the technobabble can explain it to the ones that don’t but still care. This is a comunity after all.
And yes, bless your timing.
Just a note: people can't really "skip to the end of" a livestream, which is what the dev updates are, initially (the VOD's then uploaded afterwards). :P
I have to disagree slightly. I for one would rather hear “Still working on it” than nothing. That is at least an acknowledgement that it is still ongoing and not abandoned. One could always say “skip to the end of the video for the technobabble.” Then the people who won’t understand or don’t care can skip it, the ones that will can watch it, and sooner or later the people who understood the technobabble can explain it to the ones that don’t but still care. This is a comunity after all.
And yes, bless your timing.
Just a note: people can't really "skip to the end of" a livestream, which is what the dev updates are, initially (the VOD's then uploaded afterwards). :P
Okay then, “Stick around ‘til the end of the stream for the technobabble.” Better? Or how about just “Stick the blah blah in the doobly do down below.” And just put the technobabble in writing in the notes.
It's also the sort of thing a Roadmap post is really good for. To be fair, not everybody sees those. Not everybody knows (or bothers) to look for them, and keeping them up to date can be a hassle. But long-term 'In Progress' goals that're annoying to hear constantly rehashed on a livestream are great things to include in the 'Long Range Plans' section of a roadmap. Pretty sure DDB has one of those, but I also don't know where to find it because Rei is dummy. q_q
Still. Different strokes. And perhaps, in a pie-in-the-sky future where everything changes, one of the four weekly Dev Updates every month can be a longer-form update on some of the more technical backend work, for those who'd like to know.
It's also the sort of thing a Roadmap post is really good for. To be fair, not everybody sees those. Not everybody knows (or bothers) to look for them, and keeping them up to date can be a hassle. But long-term 'In Progress' goals that're annoying to hear constantly rehashed on a livestream are great things to include in the 'Long Range Plans' section of a roadmap. Pretty sure DDB has one of those, but I also don't know where to find it because Rei is dummy. q_q
Still. Different strokes. And perhaps, in a pie-in-the-sky future where everything changes, one of the four weekly Dev Updates every month can be a longer-form update on some of the more technical backend work, for those who'd like to know.
It's also the sort of thing a Roadmap post is really good for. To be fair, not everybody sees those. Not everybody knows (or bothers) to look for them, and keeping them up to date can be a hassle. But long-term 'In Progress' goals that're annoying to hear constantly rehashed on a livestream are great things to include in the 'Long Range Plans' section of a roadmap. Pretty sure DDB has one of those, but I also don't know where to find it because Rei is dummy. q_q
Still. Different strokes. And perhaps, in a pie-in-the-sky future where everything changes, one of the four weekly Dev Updates every month can be a longer-form update on some of the more technical backend work, for those who'd like to know.
While this helpful and indeed interesting when you go into the details on the individual features its not a lot of information other than "Being worked on"
For example the Encounter Builder's last note was from 1 month ago:
That's kinda the point, Optimus. For a lot of projects, there is no update other than "still in progress/being worked on". There's not really any good way to tell people with no idea how the backend works that nine months of steady progress is still really good work, there's just less-worse ways. A Roadmap document like the one V2Blast kindly linked (thanks, V2) is probably the least worst way to keep tabs on long-term projects like that. Provided it's kept up to date.
That's kinda the point, Optimus. For a lot of projects, there is no update other than "still in progress/being worked on". There's not really any good way to tell people with no idea how the backend works that nine months of steady progress is still really good work, there's just less-worse ways. A Roadmap document like the one V2Blast kindly linked (thanks, V2) is probably the least worst way to keep tabs on long-term projects like that. Provided it's kept up to date.
Yeah fair enough. I think people who want more technical details (I wouldn't understand them) would likely enjoy hearing about what challenges they are facing in more detail but I am sure they are also wanting to protect proprietary information as well.
That's kinda the point, Optimus. For a lot of projects, there is no update other than "still in progress/being worked on". There's not really any good way to tell people with no idea how the backend works that nine months of steady progress is still really good work, there's just less-worse ways. A Roadmap document like the one V2Blast kindly linked (thanks, V2) is probably the least worst way to keep tabs on long-term projects like that. Provided it's kept up to date.
Yeah fair enough. I think people who want more technical details (I wouldn't understand them) would likely enjoy hearing about what challenges they are facing in more detail but I am sure they are also wanting to protect proprietary information as well.
Sure, but they could explain it enough for the code heads to understand why it’s taking so long so that they could help assuage the doubts the rest of us might have. I learned enough programming back in the ‘90s to know it wasn’t for me and why. I wouldn’t understand the tech jargon either, and fully understand how long these things take. I’m okay with “still working on it” because I know enough to appreciate it, but not enough to appreciate more (like the tech jargon).
Sure, but they could explain it enough for the code heads to understand why it’s taking so long so that they could help assuage the doubts the rest of us might have.
Code head? That seems a bit derogatory...
Credentials: I've been a professional software developer for over twenty years. I've worked on a dozen or so commercial software products.
Here's why it takes so long: software development takes longer than you think. Much longer.
I don't need to know how many yaks they've had to shave today. I don't need to know what requirements have changed dramatically since they designed the architecture. I don't even need to know what technology they're using.
I already know what the problem is. Nobody said the car had to be amphibious. The house plans were for a sprawling mansion, but the lot is only 12 feet wide. Resurrect the dead, on a budget?
Here's a case in point: the class variant rules add optional features to base classes. That follows neither the "subclass option selects features" system, nor the "features can include options inside them" system. It's a new, optional system. Maybe.
Should D&D Beyond invest a lot of time adding this new system to classes? What if they invest the time and Wizards decides not to go ahead with it? Or Wizards changes how it works? That could be a lot of effort wasted. But it might be needed. Who knows?
Either way, the D&D Beyond devs are still working on 5e functionality and 5.Xe might be looming on the horizon. Where do they commit resources? The VTT or the potentially game changing rules update that must be coming from Wizards? They might be able to work on both, but something has to go on the back burner.
And that's why they don't give timelines. If Wizards pops out a book full of new character creation rules, D&D Beyond has to change priorities. It has to re-allocate development resources. Timelines must change.
Tough decisions will have to be made. They won't make everybody happy. People will complain that their pet project deserves priority because it's what all the right thinking people want.
So here's the secret to buying software: purchase based on what it does right now. Don't make decisions based on what you think or hope it will do in the future.
And don't expect status updates from developers. They're busy.
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In my mind, the biggest problem with VTTs is that they take away from imagination. If I can’t play theater of the mind, I’d rather not play. If they made a multi person video chat with a “virtual table top” that was literally just a table with character sheets and dice that the players could all share as we watched live video of each other, with good sound quality and DM controls.... I would be way more interested in that.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThere's a difference between being a mega-fan knowing the full history of the game and being told something by the makers of the game. It's not weird at all, in my mind, to take something at face value in those discussions.
As a fan, however, I am in favor of new rules and experimentation, so it hasn't kept me up at night, just simply that we had to adapt to the new direction.
This is a trap.
As I said above, most fans don't care about (or understand) backend development work because they're not engineers.
If I say nothing about what we're working on, the perception is we aren't "doing anything." If I say "this work is in progress," but then don't provide an update each week (I don't mention it because there's no "news" about it that is significant to the public), then I have tons of folks ask me "what about [X], you didn't mention it?" If I say "It's in progress - we updated the render library from Technobabble to Devspeak because the load on the infrastructure meant less parsecs to Kessel" (I'm clearly not an engineer), that is also a "meaningless" update for most and would not resonate.
I've heard from a few people a request to occasionally pull a developer into the dev update to talk a bit more in-depth about our tech, and it is certainly something we could do. But, in general, it is not something that would strike a chord with most fans weekly.
Hello BadEye
Thank you so much for your attention to this thread and providing your time and answers. It shows you do care about the community you have on here, which is great to know for those of us who have invested a lot of time (and money) into this site.
Can you advise more about what changes you are making for the framework to the character sheet, and homebrewing/customising? I'm a bit of a codehead myself and realise that changed your backend system from what you had into something more variable and flexible is a huge undertaking. It's actually great to know you've been working on this already for 9-10 months, as I was expecting this to end up being a later this year/early next. The fact you're beginning to roll stuff out already is fantastic.
What I'm wondering is what kind of changes have been made? Have you progressed from rigid set data to something variable? Will homebrewing allow the use of variables rather than using modifiers with only the presets you've made? Like if I wanted an item that called a specific skill bonus, or create an AC of 10 + Strength + Int or something? Or to create custom actions with finesse property?
People rail on Roll20 but you can create absolutely anything in homebrew and have it autocalculate because everything is a workable variable you can call, change and do what you need. Now, the interface may suck a bit and you cannot save anything between multiple characters, but it really is the approach you need to take - because this would solve all your hangups. Everything is a variable/entity you can do anything with, you're no longer restricted by preset modifiers, so making invocations, or whole classes can now be implemented and much easier.
Are you doing something like that ? If not what changes to the framework are made and how are they expected to resolve these problems?
And if we do have your attention: with the problem with publishing restrictions be fixed? Firstly if we don't have features "at the right levels" we cannot share things - which is a frustrating restriction in and of itself - but for druids your restrictions require a level 3 feature which is not official and so, to meet your restrictions we have to go against the books, which is even more frustrating and counterintuitive. This has been addressed many times (twice by me) but mods seem to barely respond, their replies are inconsistent and leaves us guessing. An official "we're working on it" response would be nice, maybe even "should be fixed later this year" or something.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThis was certainly true when the current-gen VTTs were created, but D&D has grown so much in the last five years that it is definitely economically feasible for a VTT to be focused on that one system.
Sure but it's even better economically if you can do that one system AND everything else.Their logic surely is, if we can get 10,000 subs from D&D, we can get 10,000 + X from allowing other systems besides D&D.
And, although it may be viable now, it wasn't viable before... and that's when these VTTs were developed, as you say. They built them to be flexible, but that means a lot of tweaking to get any one system to work in it, on the part of individual DMs and players.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
As someone who has yet to invest heavily (in time or monetarily) in any of the existing VTTs out there because none of them are particular great OR cost-effective (in a single package) that I'm waiting quite impatiently for what D&D Beyond brings to market. I'm hoping that by focusing on one system and doing it to the best possible level it will actually be worth it when done and, hey, I already pay for D&D Beyond, have all my source books and characters here, etc., so convenience is also a thing.
Grant K. Smith
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Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
If you need a VTT, even if none are perfect, I certainly would not wait for DDB. At the pace they are doing things, it'll probably be at least a year, and probably several years, before they have a viable one that can compete functionally with things like Fantasy Grounds or Roll20.
Astral is free for the full pro version until end of April. You might want to try it and see if it fits your needs while free, just in case you need something to tide you over until DDB's is ready. At least you will see what the full-featured thing is like before you pay them anything -- which almost no VTT that I've looked into actually gives you. The rest of them (and normally Astral) give you a stripped-down version and then you have to pay for premium, but the stripped down version is not really sufficient to see if you'd like the fully featured version.
Not trying to be a shill for Astral or anything... just pointing out that it is free/no-risk full pro trial this month and I like free stuff.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If not, Roll20 and probably others will allow you to import images. I took a handful of my miniatures and took pictures of them. Now my players are looking at the same miniature on Roll20 as they were in real life. I put minimal effort into making the Roll20 presentable and fill in the gaps that exist from DnDBeyond. You may need to add a few extra notes for reference and it certainly works better if your computer can project to two monitors or you've got two computers (or are willing to use your phone for some of the resources), but this strategy should allow most people to play without sinking funds into two systems. If your strategy is to play that way long term, then the increased investment might be merited, but at that juncture, I'd ask your players to pitch in funds to help if they haven't yet.
Well, there's also a difference between saying, 'we didn't think' and 'the game designers told us'. Even then, I mean, come on... there was no way in the Abyss they weren't going to release new rules, it's like, hard-baked into the entire DNA of D&D.
I think that's presumptive and a little condescending. Sure, we might not understand the nitty-gritty, technobabble but there's a middle-ground between 'give an engineering lecture' and 'say nothing but 'in progress''. A for instance would be the stealth alpha rollout for this 9 month long character sheet general modifiers fix. First I heard about it was this thread. A simple, "And we're continuing to work behind the scenes on this hoohar thingy-ma-bob and now we're at the point where we're live testing with some select accounts. Watch out for an 'alpha' tag on your character sheets!" There's a big difference between that and a "We're in progress," message for nine months of dev updates.
"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
Nah, he's right, 29. Most people are going to tune out that sort of talk, and there's not really many ways to say "Yep, that thing we said we'd be working on for most of the year? we're still working on it. Going good but it ain't ready yet" wears on the nerves pretty quick. Prime example is Class Variant Features. People got sick of hearing it and there was no reportable change so Adam stopped talking about it for a few weeks. People then got pissed he hadn't mentioned it and thought it had been dropped.
There's not really any good way to say "yeah, this is gonna take forever, but we gotta do it and it'll slow other stuff down, so...buckle up." People hate hearing that, they lose interest quickly. Heh, apparently I had pretty perfect timing when I posted these concerns, so hurray luck? Either way, we know now, so everything's cool.
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I have to disagree slightly. I for one would rather hear “Still working on it” than nothing. That is at least an acknowledgement that it is still ongoing and not abandoned. One could always say “skip to the end of the video for the technobabble.” Then the people who won’t understand or don’t care can skip it, the ones that will can watch it, and sooner or later the people who understood the technobabble can explain it to the ones that don’t but still care. This is a comunity after all.
And yes, bless your timing.
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ModeratorJust a note: people can't really "skip to the end of" a livestream, which is what the dev updates are, initially (the VOD's then uploaded afterwards). :P
Okay then, “Stick around ‘til the end of the stream for the technobabble.” Better? Or how about just “Stick the blah blah in the doobly do down below.” And just put the technobabble in writing in the notes.
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It's also the sort of thing a Roadmap post is really good for. To be fair, not everybody sees those. Not everybody knows (or bothers) to look for them, and keeping them up to date can be a hassle. But long-term 'In Progress' goals that're annoying to hear constantly rehashed on a livestream are great things to include in the 'Long Range Plans' section of a roadmap. Pretty sure DDB has one of those, but I also don't know where to find it because Rei is dummy. q_q
Still. Different strokes. And perhaps, in a pie-in-the-sky future where everything changes, one of the four weekly Dev Updates every month can be a longer-form update on some of the more technical backend work, for those who'd like to know.
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ModeratorThe roadmap's here: https://ddb.ac/feature-roadmap
While this helpful and indeed interesting when you go into the details on the individual features its not a lot of information other than "Being worked on"
For example the Encounter Builder's last note was from 1 month ago:
Encounter Builder
While I believe they are still working on it's documentation is really no better than the Dev Talks IMO.
That's kinda the point, Optimus. For a lot of projects, there is no update other than "still in progress/being worked on". There's not really any good way to tell people with no idea how the backend works that nine months of steady progress is still really good work, there's just less-worse ways. A Roadmap document like the one V2Blast kindly linked (thanks, V2) is probably the least worst way to keep tabs on long-term projects like that. Provided it's kept up to date.
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Yeah fair enough. I think people who want more technical details (I wouldn't understand them) would likely enjoy hearing about what challenges they are facing in more detail but I am sure they are also wanting to protect proprietary information as well.
Sure, but they could explain it enough for the code heads to understand why it’s taking so long so that they could help assuage the doubts the rest of us might have. I learned enough programming back in the ‘90s to know it wasn’t for me and why. I wouldn’t understand the tech jargon either, and fully understand how long these things take. I’m okay with “still working on it” because I know enough to appreciate it, but not enough to appreciate more (like the tech jargon).
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Code head? That seems a bit derogatory...
Credentials: I've been a professional software developer for over twenty years. I've worked on a dozen or so commercial software products.
Here's why it takes so long: software development takes longer than you think. Much longer.
I don't need to know how many yaks they've had to shave today. I don't need to know what requirements have changed dramatically since they designed the architecture. I don't even need to know what technology they're using.
I already know what the problem is. Nobody said the car had to be amphibious. The house plans were for a sprawling mansion, but the lot is only 12 feet wide. Resurrect the dead, on a budget?
Here's a case in point: the class variant rules add optional features to base classes. That follows neither the "subclass option selects features" system, nor the "features can include options inside them" system. It's a new, optional system. Maybe.
Should D&D Beyond invest a lot of time adding this new system to classes? What if they invest the time and Wizards decides not to go ahead with it? Or Wizards changes how it works? That could be a lot of effort wasted. But it might be needed. Who knows?
Either way, the D&D Beyond devs are still working on 5e functionality and 5.Xe might be looming on the horizon. Where do they commit resources? The VTT or the potentially game changing rules update that must be coming from Wizards? They might be able to work on both, but something has to go on the back burner.
And that's why they don't give timelines. If Wizards pops out a book full of new character creation rules, D&D Beyond has to change priorities. It has to re-allocate development resources. Timelines must change.
Tough decisions will have to be made. They won't make everybody happy. People will complain that their pet project deserves priority because it's what all the right thinking people want.
So here's the secret to buying software: purchase based on what it does right now. Don't make decisions based on what you think or hope it will do in the future.
And don't expect status updates from developers. They're busy.