Starting at 5th level, before you make an attack roll with an unarmed strike or pugilist melee weapon attack that does not already have disadvantage, you can declare you are swinging wild haymakers. You make all attack rolls until the end of this turn with disadvantage and when you deal damage you do not roll, but use the maximum die result instead.
Try as I might, I cannot find a version number on that PDF anywhere. Perhaps the above helps, it is pasted directly from the PDF.
I'm not a fan narratively, in that an unarmed brute character should be mince when faced with moderately compatent sword weilders. The reach should mean a weapon user will always strike first, and as a brute type character speed is not the prime characteristic (unlike the agile monk's who rely on dodgy blows to close the distance). They would also miss out on cool magic weapons. I don't mind the idea for a bouncer or unarmed pit fighter, but for a dungeon delving adventurer it doesn't mesh as well. I'm not sure if this particular homebrew includes size consideration, but really body weight makes a big difference, so a gnome pugilist should be less powerful than a goliath one.
I think you're overthinking 5e a little too much on all of these points, it's supposed to be fun and simple, not realistic.
Well, that's sort of an ironic defense, actually not a defense so much as a dismissal of the criticism, because I think the Pugilist is a bit ... overthought itself. It's asserting fisticuffs (though taking broad liberties with the concept) as something that can track with the combative abilities of other character classes in a way that frankly tries too hard filling it with basically more maneuvers (albeit unarmed ones) than the battle master to keep up with the martial classes' simple combative progressions, the rogue's much simpler mobile attacker progressions, and the monk's ki fighting progressions. Part of the fun and simple calculus is reasonable suspension of disbelief in any fantasy, and this just seems a bit of outlier for a lot DMs largely because the character is actually more mechanically dense than other characters who want to use the attack option in games (another form of fun and simple).
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Starting at 5th level, before you make an attack roll with an unarmed strike or pugilist melee weapon attack that does not already have disadvantage, you can declare you are swinging wild haymakers. You make all attack rolls until the end of this turn with disadvantage and when you deal damage you do not roll, but use the maximum die result instead.
Try as I might, I cannot find a version number on that PDF anywhere. Perhaps the above helps, it is pasted directly from the PDF.
The pugilist details I was using was a Google search for "5e pugilist" and the first image result is a scan of the pdf. In that version the haymaker is just spend 1 moxie point to make them roll a con save or be stunned. I think they made that change because max damage was to OP. It was a simple thing to get advantage (prone enemy for example) and as that version doesn't use moxie you can make all attacks haymakers.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
What part did you find OP?, I'm interested in what you thought.
All right. You asked. Here goes.
First thing that strikes me is that Pugilists are automatically proficient in improvised weapons. I'm not sure why one would ever bother, they do better damage without them, but perhaps they *really* need to use that silver candlestick holder to beat up a Werewolf. In any case it seems unreasonable for them to get a bonus to hit with anything at all times and in all cases.
Its flavor and the VAST majority of the time it is going to be 1d4 damage die. Their improvised weapons do not improve with their fist die....so they stay at 1d4 forever. Its fluff.
Next, they start out with a minimum damage of 1D6. There Martial Arts... er... Fisticuffs Die starts at what a Monk gets at 5th level. Their version of the Monk's Unarmored Defense is based solely around Constitution, removing one of the big drawbacks Monks have, which is the need for multiple high stats. That makes Iron Chin better than Unarmored Defense while doing the same exact thing.
You will max out with 17 AC with the Pugilist (Studded Leather with 20 CON) while you max at 20 AC with monk. Monk can also Dodge as a BA. You are supposed to get hit with this class which is half the point of the abilities you get. It is no where close to what Monk gets as they end up with +3 AC and can impose DIS on attacks against themselves.
The School Of Hard Knocks is better than Purity Of Body. The School gives you Advantage against two common and dangerous conditions, Stunned and Unconscious, and you get Resistance to Psychic damage on top of that. Monks get to be immune to Disease and Poison, which aren't much of a problem at 10th level in any game I have never heard of.
There are several creatures in all tiers that use poison damage so I am not sure how that is correct....Poison is a bad option for PC damage but loads of creatures use Poison on PCs.
Psychic damage is actually really rare in comparison. Almost nothing imparts the Stunned condition and very few things impart the Unconscious condition.
Monks get Slow Fall and Deflect Missiles. Both of which are quite nice, but put together I don't see them as being as useful as Bloodied But Unbowed.
Dig Deep encroaches on the Barbarian Rage mechanics, but with the disadvantage of their Berserker Frenzy. Not good.
Haymaker is again more in the Barbarian neck of the woods, the disadvantage isn't nearly as bad as the benefit here. Automatic maximum damage is insane.
Bloodied but Unbowed is when you are at half health before you can even proc it....so you are already in bad shape when it opens up which I think balances it nicely.
Dig Deep is something that gives you some resistance but you take a level of exhaustion to get it....exhaustion at level 4 is only overcome with a long rest. Its not until 9th level that you have any other means to remove it. Its not something you use much and when you do you pay for it in damage output (Losing BA to activate) and long term effectiveness. It is unique and I think fairly well balanced.
It seems powerful but then you realize that never getting ADV on an attack hurts your DPR a lot unless you are dealing with low AC enemies.
So overall the class is fairly well balanced in my opinion....as a core. There are some subclasses that need tweaks but overall its a supreme effort for a single individual.
A lot of your complaints can boil down to the issues with Monk and less the issues with Pugilist IMO.
At no time in all of recorded history has it been better to fight in serious battles without weapons. Even in the Orient, the home of the Martial Arts, it wasn't a good idea. Martial artists used their skills to try and survive long enough to hopefully grab some kind of weapon to use. Perhaps to take it from an enemy, perhaps just to stall long enough for an ally to arrive. As near as can be figured, it has been this way since the Stone Age.
Good thing this isn't a medieval history simulator then! :)
But seriously, this ship has sailed. A naked barbarian at level 20 surpasses the AC of a guy in full plate armor - and when he is hit, he takes half the damage the Sir Plate takes. That's already in the game. This game sacrifices reality for dramatic storytelling, and a guy who takes on global-extinction-level threats by punching them really hard is not uncommon in several currently popular genres of entertainment. It's a character people want to play.
As for the Pugilist class, as long as we're homebrewing I think it would be a whole lot simpler to just make a STR-based subclass of monk or an unarmed-focused subclass of fighter or barbarian.
At no time in all of recorded history has it been better to fight in serious battles without weapons. Even in the Orient, the home of the Martial Arts, it wasn't a good idea. Martial artists used their skills to try and survive long enough to hopefully grab some kind of weapon to use. Perhaps to take it from an enemy, perhaps just to stall long enough for an ally to arrive. As near as can be figured, it has been this way since the Stone Age.
Good thing this isn't a medieval history simulator then! :)
But seriously, this ship has sailed. A naked barbarian at level 20 surpasses the AC of a guy in full plate armor - and when he is hit, he takes half the damage the Sir Plate takes. That's already in the game. This game sacrifices reality for dramatic storytelling, and a guy who takes on global-extinction-level threats by punching them really hard is not uncommon in several currently popular genres of entertainment. It's a character people want to play.
As for the Pugilist class, as long as we're homebrewing I think it would be a whole lot simpler to just make a STR-based subclass of monk or an unarmed-focused subclass of fighter or barbarian.
Yeah agreed on the first point too....like a guy punching a dragon is not something you think should happen but a guy making a giant fist appear to punch the same dragon is somehow acceptable? Yeah that makes sense.....
As for the simplicity of making it work...I agree. If WotC ever actually comes out with a subclass like you mention I may reconsider the class but they have not really tried to any extent beyond the Unarmed Fighting style which didn't do much besides make monk look a little weaker.
Thanks to OptimusGrimus, I was able to read the Pugilist Class. I didn't read the entire thing. I got as far as the subclasses and skimmed the rest. They did an impressive amount of work. I would have to see one in actual play to judge it. The Class looks way too powerful to me, but as I said, I can't tell just from looking at it.
What part did you find OP?, I'm interested in what you thought.
All right. You asked. Here goes.
First thing that strikes me is that Pugilists are automatically proficient in improvised weapons. I'm not sure why one would ever bother, they do better damage without them, but perhaps they *really* need to use that silver candlestick holder to beat up a Werewolf. In any case it seems unreasonable for them to get a bonus to hit with anything at all times and in all cases.
Next, they start out with a minimum damage of 1D6. There Martial Arts... er... Fisticuffs Die starts at what a Monk gets at 5th level. Their version of the Monk's Unarmored Defense is based solely around Constitution, removing one of the big drawbacks Monks have, which is the need for multiple high stats. That makes Iron Chin better than Unarmored Defense while doing the same exact thing.
Moxie, their version of Ki Points, gives them roughly the same thing as Monks get. Again, I think they come out ahead a little. They get to heal themselves, Monks get to Disengage for free. Hard to judge this one.
Street Smart is handy I guess, and there is no equivalent for Monks. Bloodied But Unbowed is quite powerful and again, Monks get nothing like it.
Monks get Slow Fall and Deflect Missiles. Both of which are quite nice, but put together I don't see them as being as useful as Bloodied But Unbowed.
Dig Deep encroaches on the Barbarian Rage mechanics, but with the disadvantage of their Berserker Frenzy. Not good.
Haymaker is again more in the Barbarian neck of the woods, the disadvantage isn't nearly as bad as the benefit here. Automatic maximum damage is insane.
Fancy Footwork is much inferior to Evasion. Down But Not Out makes Bloodied But Unbowed even more powerful again. Unarmored Movement and the Improved version are nice, but somewhat situational, so the points are still on the Pugilist side.
The School Of Hard Knocks is better than Purity Of Body. The School gives you Advantage against two common and dangerous conditions, Stunned and Unconscious, and you get Resistance to Psychic damage on top of that. Monks get to be immune to Disease and Poison, which aren't much of a problem at 10th level in any game I have never heard of.
The Tongue Of Sun And Moon and Rabble Rouser is another one that is hard to judge. The effect of the Tongues spell at will and without limited number of uses is outstanding in a game where the DM is using Languages much, and totally useless if the Common Tongue gets you by. Advantage on Persuasion and Intimidation will be handy always. Point to Pugilist again I'd say.
I think Diamond Soul is better than Unbreakable. Especially since Monks get Evasion. Point to the Monks!
Herculean or Timeless Body? Herculean lets you break stuff and jump high. Timeless Body's main features is utterly useless in 5th Edition D&D, but the secondary feature, not having to eat or drink could be wonderful... if the DM is using those Encumbrance rules and sending you out on long trips in hostile environments. Very much a DM's call. No points awarded.
Fighting Spirit over Empty Body... Going to have to go with the Monk side again. The ability to recover from a whole lot of Exhaustion is pretty neato and vital if you abuse Dig Deep, but as I said, I don't like Dig Deep. Fighting Spirit lets you recover a whole whale of a lot of hit points and a bunch of you Ki... Moxie... but Empty Body lets you be invisible. It's expensive in terms of moxie/ki but Invisibility rocks. The Astral Projection effect seems fairly useless to me. You can't take anyone with you. How will you use that? Scrying? Ok I guess.
The Capstones for both classes are Peak Physical Condition and Perfect Self. Peak Condition lets you bypass the hard caps on maximum scores. Barbarian territory again. Perfect Self lets you recover Ki like crazy. Pugilist wins. Lots more times when higher scores will matter than more Ki points.
Monks are ever so much more speedy. Does that matter? I think it depends you the DM. Wide open spaces favor the Monk. How often will you be free to use all that movement?
I don't want to get into the subclasses. I didn't read the Pugilist ones and I still don't want to. Unless there's a Hexblade equivalent running around in there, the Pugilist is winning the war. I know Monks don't have a Hexbladeish subclass. No uber subclass that makes a one or two level dip into the class worth taking.
You want a nonmagical sort? Pugilist isn't that any more than a Monk is. Have fun, whatever you do.
Iron chin is not better than Unarmored defense by any means, pugilists have 2 or 3 points of AC less than monk on average, and it doesn't make it any less MAD really as monk didn't have a problem upgrading WIS just for AC, as it increases their ki save DC, Fisticuffs die is one size higher than Martial Arts but pugilist's AC is A LOT smaller than monk's, one note, monks are generally built DEX , WIS, CON, while pugilists are usually built STR, CON, and then DEX or CHA depending on your subclass/playstyle, moxie is good, The Old One-two is flurry of blows, stick and move is basically a way pugilist can prone a target to get a few easy hits, and Brace Up is modified Patient Defense that keeps Pugilists on their feet, Street Smart is pretty much a large part of what makes Pugilist a Combat/Roleplaying class, as opposed to monk, a combat/exploration class.
Bloodied But Unbowed ( BTW I'm running off of V1 for this. ) is cool, but the THP is not much to write home about compared to Brace Up, and it's real meat comes much later at 9th level, compared to Deflect missiles it's not much, Deflect Missiles works on ANY ranged weapon attack, it doesn't cost any Ki up front ( it eats your reaction but who cares? ), it has a huge damage reduction, and you can even throw it back for a Ki point.
Slow Fall is GREAT, 5X your monk level is nothing to cough at, Dig Deep is quite good and help you sponge up damage, but it comes at a hefty price, Slow fall and Unarmored Movement is what makes monk a Agile skirmisher than can run insane distances in just one turn, run up walls, and jump off cliffs just to dust themselves off and walk away, Brace Up and Dig Deep is what makes Pugilist a slow-but-sure, ground-bound Brawler, I'd say each has it's own merits and skill set.
Haymaker is one of the pugilist's real money makers ( No pun intended. ), and is a good tradeoff, though it can get pretty crazy with Divine Smite, Reckless Attack is a not a huge problem since all the monsters will make attacks with advantage against the 13 AC target right in front of them.
Fancy Footwork is just something that gives Pugilist a push on their way since they'll be spending most of their time going toe-to-toe with big, ugly monsters in an edition where every dungeon boss and their mothers have some dex save-triggering effect, plus pugilists kinda are lacking in strong saving throws, still, not quite as good as evasion.
Purity of Body is more than a little better The School of Hard Knocks, psychic damage is few and far between, and not much inflicts those conditions, ( although they are dangerous. ), poison damage pretty ubiquitous in all tiers of monsters, so there you go.
Rabble Rouser, as with most pugilist and monks features, is thematically very strong, Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Rabble Rouser are deadlocked in terms of usefulness.
I agree with you on Herculean and Timeless body.
I think Unbreakable and Daimond soul are about equal, if anything monks comes out on top as all saves includes 5 extra proficiencies including death saves.
Empty body comes out better than Fighting Spirit even though it is really great.
Both capstones compliment their classes well, but PPC a little flashier than Perfect self, I'd say their equal yet again.
Ultimately, both classes are balanced but have wildly different playstyles, and you can't tell a book from it's cover so if you really want a grasp on the Monk/Pugilist, take either for a spin and see what you think.
Great third party option that I wish I could build on here!
Top 3 class I want to play when I get to be in another 5e game.
I believe Mr. Hoffman did say the DDB contacted him about it but haven't gotten back to him since 2018.
If that conversation ever happened, I don't think they'll ever followup given the terms of DDB and WotC. The only exception to the rule of 3rd party or homebrew in DDB is still the Bloodhunter, but that was clearly a result of Critical Role's impact on both DDB and WotC sales. Hoffman used to work for Hit Point Press who has a larger following than him, and they know they'll never see say Humblewood officially on DDB.
Someday maybe DDB will allow a custom class builder. Maybe third party builders could then produce "cheat sheets" with instructions on how to homebrew their stuff into DDB (though I don't think anyone's done that with monsters or subclasses or spells, etc.). I don't know though since I think WotC wants to assert it's control over the D&D Brand and 3rd parties having to use "The World's Greatest Role Playing Game" en lieu of that. But the first step would be a custom class builder, and I don't know if that's coming in the foreseeable future if ever.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Great third party option that I wish I could build on here!
Top 3 class I want to play when I get to be in another 5e game.
I believe Mr. Hoffman did say the DDB contacted him about it but haven't gotten back to him since 2018.
If that conversation ever happened, I don't think they'll ever followup given the terms of DDB and WotC. The only exception to the rule of 3rd party or homebrew in DDB is still the Bloodhunter, but that was clearly a result of Critical Role's impact on both DDB and WotC sales. Hoffman used to work for Hit Point Press who has a larger following than him, and they know they'll never see say Humblewood officially on DDB.
Someday maybe DDB will allow a custom class builder. Maybe third party builders could then produce "cheat sheets" with instructions on how to homebrew their stuff into DDB (though I don't think anyone's done that with monsters or subclasses or spells, etc.). I don't know though since I think WotC wants to assert it's control over the D&D Brand and 3rd parties having to use "The World's Greatest Role Playing Game" en lieu of that. But the first step would be a custom class builder, and I don't know if that's coming in the foreseeable future if ever.
They did have those one third party subclasses that got published for a bit then taken back down.... Weird situation that.
They did have those one third party subclasses that got published for a bit then taken back down.... Weird situation that.
Right, and we have Mercer's Gunslinger class and those two other Crit Role subclasses. Subclasses are more readily implemented into the system. A new class would be a larger lift I'm presuming. Plus the sense I got was those "piratey" subclasses were adapted from some sort of online game/app that likely had a larger following than your average D&D independent developer. The quick take down of same also I think put some clarity into DDB's relationship with its license going forward.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
They did have those one third party subclasses that got published for a bit then taken back down.... Weird situation that.
Right, and we have Mercer's Gunslinger class and those two other Crit Role subclasses. Subclasses are more readily implemented into the system. A new class would be a larger lift I'm presuming. Plus the sense I got was those "piratey" subclasses were adapted from some sort of online game/app that likely had a larger following than your average D&D independent developer. The quick take down of same also I think put some clarity into DDB's relationship with its license going forward.
They did have those one third party subclasses that got published for a bit then taken back down.... Weird situation that.
Right, and we have Mercer's Gunslinger class and those two other Crit Role subclasses. Subclasses are more readily implemented into the system. A new class would be a larger lift I'm presuming. Plus the sense I got was those "piratey" subclasses were adapted from some sort of online game/app that likely had a larger following than your average D&D independent developer. The quick take down of same also I think put some clarity into DDB's relationship with its license going forward.
Yeah they were from a game I know... But I think they got in trouble for that deal it seemed... They originally said they were there forever then they said like a few weeks.
I think you're right and WotC keeps a tight lid on what they publish
After due consideration I've decided that I wouldn't use the Pugilist. They surely did it up proud. They covered everything you need to play one, right down to the magic items. I can see how a Pugilist in their proper environment could work out. I think they are a little strong, but not terribly so, and slightly less flexible than the Monk they so blatantly copied.
For myself, I think the Pugilist would make a good Background. I'd make it pretty much the same as the Criminal/Spy Background. Proficiency in Performance and Stealth, Thieves Cant, and a contact in the Thieves Guild.
I imagine a child who grew up in the wrong part of the city, on the mean streets, whose training came from the School Of Hard Knocks, who supported themselves with their fists, and then toughed it out to become an Adventurer.
It would be good for any class. It would be perfect for a Rogue who didn't want to actually have committed any crimes. A little weird for a Wizard, but if you want to play against type, a child who grew up like that could have been no physical prodigy, but they were smart, and they were determined, so they took a lot of beatings on their way, but they saved up enough to get into that all important school to learn spellcasting.
What BH did to the pugilist with version three is Strange, he added XGTE-style flavor tables which were pretty nice, but the new Iron Chin is bonkers (If you want better AC, just take leather armor with warforged or variant human with Defense fighting initiate.).
Haymaker:
Starting at 5th level, before you make an attack roll with an unarmed strike or pugilist melee weapon attack that does not already have disadvantage, you can declare you are swinging wild haymakers. You make all attack rolls until the end of this turn with disadvantage and when you deal damage you do not roll, but use the maximum die result instead.
Try as I might, I cannot find a version number on that PDF anywhere. Perhaps the above helps, it is pasted directly from the PDF.
<Insert clever signature here>
Well, that's sort of an ironic defense, actually not a defense so much as a dismissal of the criticism, because I think the Pugilist is a bit ... overthought itself. It's asserting fisticuffs (though taking broad liberties with the concept) as something that can track with the combative abilities of other character classes in a way that frankly tries too hard filling it with basically more maneuvers (albeit unarmed ones) than the battle master to keep up with the martial classes' simple combative progressions, the rogue's much simpler mobile attacker progressions, and the monk's ki fighting progressions. Part of the fun and simple calculus is reasonable suspension of disbelief in any fantasy, and this just seems a bit of outlier for a lot DMs largely because the character is actually more mechanically dense than other characters who want to use the attack option in games (another form of fun and simple).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The pugilist details I was using was a Google search for "5e pugilist" and the first image result is a scan of the pdf. In that version the haymaker is just spend 1 moxie point to make them roll a con save or be stunned. I think they made that change because max damage was to OP. It was a simple thing to get advantage (prone enemy for example) and as that version doesn't use moxie you can make all attacks haymakers.
Its flavor and the VAST majority of the time it is going to be 1d4 damage die. Their improvised weapons do not improve with their fist die....so they stay at 1d4 forever. Its fluff.
You will max out with 17 AC with the Pugilist (Studded Leather with 20 CON) while you max at 20 AC with monk. Monk can also Dodge as a BA. You are supposed to get hit with this class which is half the point of the abilities you get. It is no where close to what Monk gets as they end up with +3 AC and can impose DIS on attacks against themselves.
There are several creatures in all tiers that use poison damage so I am not sure how that is correct....Poison is a bad option for PC damage but loads of creatures use Poison on PCs.
Psychic damage is actually really rare in comparison. Almost nothing imparts the Stunned condition and very few things impart the Unconscious condition.
Bloodied but Unbowed is when you are at half health before you can even proc it....so you are already in bad shape when it opens up which I think balances it nicely.
Dig Deep is something that gives you some resistance but you take a level of exhaustion to get it....exhaustion at level 4 is only overcome with a long rest. Its not until 9th level that you have any other means to remove it. Its not something you use much and when you do you pay for it in damage output (Losing BA to activate) and long term effectiveness. It is unique and I think fairly well balanced.
Haymaker is actually pretty bad mathmatically https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/f6v7w8/mechanical_efficacy_of_the_pugilist_haymaker/
It seems powerful but then you realize that never getting ADV on an attack hurts your DPR a lot unless you are dealing with low AC enemies.
So overall the class is fairly well balanced in my opinion....as a core. There are some subclasses that need tweaks but overall its a supreme effort for a single individual.
A lot of your complaints can boil down to the issues with Monk and less the issues with Pugilist IMO.
Good thing this isn't a medieval history simulator then! :)
But seriously, this ship has sailed. A naked barbarian at level 20 surpasses the AC of a guy in full plate armor - and when he is hit, he takes half the damage the Sir Plate takes. That's already in the game. This game sacrifices reality for dramatic storytelling, and a guy who takes on global-extinction-level threats by punching them really hard is not uncommon in several currently popular genres of entertainment. It's a character people want to play.
As for the Pugilist class, as long as we're homebrewing I think it would be a whole lot simpler to just make a STR-based subclass of monk or an unarmed-focused subclass of fighter or barbarian.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Yeah agreed on the first point too....like a guy punching a dragon is not something you think should happen but a guy making a giant fist appear to punch the same dragon is somehow acceptable? Yeah that makes sense.....
As for the simplicity of making it work...I agree. If WotC ever actually comes out with a subclass like you mention I may reconsider the class but they have not really tried to any extent beyond the Unarmed Fighting style which didn't do much besides make monk look a little weaker.
Iron chin is not better than Unarmored defense by any means, pugilists have 2 or 3 points of AC less than monk on average, and it doesn't make it any less MAD really as monk didn't have a problem upgrading WIS just for AC, as it increases their ki save DC, Fisticuffs die is one size higher than Martial Arts but pugilist's AC is A LOT smaller than monk's, one note, monks are generally built DEX , WIS, CON, while pugilists are usually built STR, CON, and then DEX or CHA depending on your subclass/playstyle, moxie is good, The Old One-two is flurry of blows, stick and move is basically a way pugilist can prone a target to get a few easy hits, and Brace Up is modified Patient Defense that keeps Pugilists on their feet, Street Smart is pretty much a large part of what makes Pugilist a Combat/Roleplaying class, as opposed to monk, a combat/exploration class.
Bloodied But Unbowed ( BTW I'm running off of V1 for this. ) is cool, but the THP is not much to write home about compared to Brace Up, and it's real meat comes much later at 9th level, compared to Deflect missiles it's not much, Deflect Missiles works on ANY ranged weapon attack, it doesn't cost any Ki up front ( it eats your reaction but who cares? ), it has a huge damage reduction, and you can even throw it back for a Ki point.
Slow Fall is GREAT, 5X your monk level is nothing to cough at, Dig Deep is quite good and help you sponge up damage, but it comes at a hefty price, Slow fall and Unarmored Movement is what makes monk a Agile skirmisher than can run insane distances in just one turn, run up walls, and jump off cliffs just to dust themselves off and walk away, Brace Up and Dig Deep is what makes Pugilist a slow-but-sure, ground-bound Brawler, I'd say each has it's own merits and skill set.
Haymaker is one of the pugilist's real money makers ( No pun intended. ), and is a good tradeoff, though it can get pretty crazy with Divine Smite, Reckless Attack is a not a huge problem since all the monsters will make attacks with advantage against the 13 AC target right in front of them.
Fancy Footwork is just something that gives Pugilist a push on their way since they'll be spending most of their time going toe-to-toe with big, ugly monsters in an edition where every dungeon boss and their mothers have some dex save-triggering effect, plus pugilists kinda are lacking in strong saving throws, still, not quite as good as evasion.
Purity of Body is more than a little better The School of Hard Knocks, psychic damage is few and far between, and not much inflicts those conditions, ( although they are dangerous. ), poison damage pretty ubiquitous in all tiers of monsters, so there you go.
Rabble Rouser, as with most pugilist and monks features, is thematically very strong, Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Rabble Rouser are deadlocked in terms of usefulness.
I agree with you on Herculean and Timeless body.
I think Unbreakable and Daimond soul are about equal, if anything monks comes out on top as all saves includes 5 extra proficiencies including death saves.
Empty body comes out better than Fighting Spirit even though it is really great.
Both capstones compliment their classes well, but PPC a little flashier than Perfect self, I'd say their equal yet again.
Ultimately, both classes are balanced but have wildly different playstyles, and you can't tell a book from it's cover so if you really want a grasp on the Monk/Pugilist, take either for a spin and see what you think.
P.S. I'm not gonna go into subclasses for now.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
The subclasses do tend to take the class over the top a bit in some cases but the simple ones work great.
I believe Mr. Hoffman did say the DDB contacted him about it but haven't gotten back to him since 2018.
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
If that conversation ever happened, I don't think they'll ever followup given the terms of DDB and WotC. The only exception to the rule of 3rd party or homebrew in DDB is still the Bloodhunter, but that was clearly a result of Critical Role's impact on both DDB and WotC sales. Hoffman used to work for Hit Point Press who has a larger following than him, and they know they'll never see say Humblewood officially on DDB.
Someday maybe DDB will allow a custom class builder. Maybe third party builders could then produce "cheat sheets" with instructions on how to homebrew their stuff into DDB (though I don't think anyone's done that with monsters or subclasses or spells, etc.). I don't know though since I think WotC wants to assert it's control over the D&D Brand and 3rd parties having to use "The World's Greatest Role Playing Game" en lieu of that. But the first step would be a custom class builder, and I don't know if that's coming in the foreseeable future if ever.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
They did have those one third party subclasses that got published for a bit then taken back down.... Weird situation that.
Right, and we have Mercer's Gunslinger class and those two other Crit Role subclasses. Subclasses are more readily implemented into the system. A new class would be a larger lift I'm presuming. Plus the sense I got was those "piratey" subclasses were adapted from some sort of online game/app that likely had a larger following than your average D&D independent developer. The quick take down of same also I think put some clarity into DDB's relationship with its license going forward.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yeah they were from a game I know... But I think they got in trouble for that deal it seemed... They originally said they were there forever then they said like a few weeks.
I think you're right and WotC keeps a tight lid on what they publish
After due consideration I've decided that I wouldn't use the Pugilist. They surely did it up proud. They covered everything you need to play one, right down to the magic items. I can see how a Pugilist in their proper environment could work out. I think they are a little strong, but not terribly so, and slightly less flexible than the Monk they so blatantly copied.
For myself, I think the Pugilist would make a good Background. I'd make it pretty much the same as the Criminal/Spy Background. Proficiency in Performance and Stealth, Thieves Cant, and a contact in the Thieves Guild.
I imagine a child who grew up in the wrong part of the city, on the mean streets, whose training came from the School Of Hard Knocks, who supported themselves with their fists, and then toughed it out to become an Adventurer.
It would be good for any class. It would be perfect for a Rogue who didn't want to actually have committed any crimes. A little weird for a Wizard, but if you want to play against type, a child who grew up like that could have been no physical prodigy, but they were smart, and they were determined, so they took a lot of beatings on their way, but they saved up enough to get into that all important school to learn spellcasting.
<Insert clever signature here>
What BH did to the pugilist with version three is Strange, he added XGTE-style flavor tables which were pretty nice, but the new Iron Chin is bonkers (If you want better AC, just take leather armor with warforged or variant human with Defense fighting initiate.).
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Never in history has being a wizard been effective in combat. 5e isn't realistic, who cares.
Isn't that just a ripoff from Benjamin Huffman's Pugilist?
https://anyflip.com/ruyjf/lbgg/basic